What Would You Do?

[Timreh]

I chose Clemency..
Believing that beyond the hurt and anger forgiveness can be an invaluable lesson to learn..
After all aren't we here to learn, grow and be tested?
If the shift had occurred and humanity had awakened would we really be interested in resentment, judgement or negative emotions?
It's nice to think we would have moved outside of "right and wrong"
Personally I struggle with duality but my better half votes this way!

[Finefeather]

Posted by music (here)

Posted by Finefeather (here)
Hi Fred and All
Of course the sentence is of no real significance or even of any value...no matter what we decide, in our higher state of unconditional love...if the 'accused' have no idea of the reality of their 'crimes'...because to them, they were just doing what they, in their own minds, thought, was the right thing to do.

Like an animal...how do you go about convincing it not to kill for it's food...especially if it has been doing this for the last million years? ...you start feeding it until the instinct fades from it's unconsciousness...and a new consciousness is born.

Take care
Ray

I don't think we can force human ideals onto animals. The lion kills the lamb because that is the nature of things. There is no judgement, there is no right or wrong, lions just kill lambs, that is all. We can feed a carnivore, but that food must be killed before it is given to it, so which is best for the prey species? To be killed by humans or to be killed by the lion? We should try to interfere less - nature (which is our creation) knows what it is doing. When we try to mess with nature, that is ego talking - our true nature created this nature of physical reality perfectly.

Hi music
You just missed my point by thinking too literally
On the other hand...have you forgotten that we once were animals and that you can trace every human quality to some animal instinct or behavior? All we possess above animals is rational thinking, and then there are degrees of that too...in humans...and even in some rudimentary ways in animals.
By tracing these instincts and behaviors from animals to humans it is clear to me that rationality has brought in qualities like cunning, intelligence, planning etc...and if you think what that could result in when paired with a lower awareness of...lets call it...spiritual thinking...then we can see the reasons and motivations of these types of people.

If and when we get to a certain level of awareness of life, our leaning turns from self to other...or from singular to group thinking.
If we are going to believe in the story of service to self and service to others...with the idea that we choose to be bad or choose to be good...then we have gone astray...IMO.
Service to self is just another way of saying that the person or persons have not reached the point in their evolution where they can clearly see the 'wrong' in it...else what is life about?...some game where today I am the 'Indian' and tomorrow I'm the 'Cowboy'?...no...it is about the refinement of the qualities in us which best serves us, on earth, as the human race, to become peaceful and conflict free and filled with love...we do not do this by observing and comparing ourselves to the bad guys...we do this by becoming aware of our own inner shortcomings and what best serves our human family as a group.

Take care and love to you
Ray

[westhill]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
Concerning the "exposure" angle, just keep in mind that was part of the original scenario.

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
TPTW have been identified, each and every major player. Every soul on the planet is now fully informed as to their true history, and what has been done over the many millennia to them and their ancestors.

Then the work/judgement concerning them is done. Now we have to decide if we will keep this list for ourselves.
In big and small ways we sentence ourselves. Know thy self is like self-exposure/freedom. It's a never ending process.
We need to be careful not to recreate what was familiar.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by music (here)

Posted by Finefeather (here)
Hi Fred and All
Of course the sentence is of no real significance or even of any value...no matter what we decide, in our higher state of unconditional love...if the 'accused' have no idea of the reality of their 'crimes'...because to them, they were just doing what they, in their own minds, thought, was the right thing to do.

Like an animal...how do you go about convincing it not to kill for it's food...especially if it has been doing this for the last million years? ...you start feeding it until the instinct fades from it's unconsciousness...and a new consciousness is born.

Take care
Ray

I don't think we can force human ideals onto animals. The lion kills the lamb because that is the nature of things. There is no judgement, there is no right or wrong, lions just kill lambs, that is all. We can feed a carnivore, but that food must be killed before it is given to it, so which is best for the prey species? To be killed by humans or to be killed by the lion? We should try to interfere less - nature (which is our creation) knows what it is doing. When we try to mess with nature, that is ego talking - our true nature created this nature of physical reality perfectly.

Now there's a sticky one, and likely one the panel would be deeply engaged in. So fellow panel members here's my 2 cents, as it now stands anyway. This is wading into the realm of psychopaths me thinks. A psychopath simply does what they do don't they? Like the lion eating the lamb, or the spider waiting in it's web. But exactly where does being a psychopath end, and acting according to programming begin? And, just what is normal?

The best way to explain what I'm thinking is a personal example. Not all that long ago I thought war was the answer, and peace came through firepower superiority, (as a Marines t-shirt sports). Basically war=peace. Also, that meant I had no problem with innocent civilians being slaughtered (collateral damage), and I was thus both proud and giddy watching the "shock and awe" bombing campaign of Baghdad live on t.v. Now obviously I'm not and wasn't a psychopath, but the programming that I was allowing to run my thoughts automatically exhibited some psychopathic characteristics. Until the program began to jump the rails one day that is.

So then, at what point do we assume someone is a pure psychopath, or just operating under a program? Of course we all know the world is teeming with pure psychopaths, but even then, are they just running under a program themselves? A program of a higher order?

Back briefly to the cycle of nature. We humans consider ourselves of a higher order than animals, and in certain respects we are. Therefore we can have a much broader view than the lamb being eaten by the lion, we can see the cycle, the 'order' of things.

Now what if we could place our consciousness in the shoes of seeing our human realm, from the same perspective as we see the animal realm? (As Above So Below, As Below So Above) Would we see a certain order? A cycle of nature?

Cycle, order, program, all the same thing. Some humans can survive without eating (What happened to the program?), and if one can do it all can do it. Is the animal kingdom really supposed to be the way it is? Or, are we programmed to accept the carnage of that program as normal? And so on up the chain.

Just asking the questions...

[Craig]

Could it be that as we are here in the now to learn could others be here to prevent learning? Like a video game where each successive challenge becomes harder? In that case what is at the end? A series of never ending challenges? Would they know they are a challenge or just programmed that way?

Now I think that is a thought that will confuse me for a while

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Craig (here)
Could it be that as we are here in the now to learn could others be here to prevent learning? Like a video game where each successive challenge becomes harder? In that case what is at the end? A series of never ending challenges? Would they know they are a challenge or just programmed that way?

I like the video game analogy Craig, there's always the thrill of victory and accomplishment when yet another level is mastered isn't there? It also reminds me of the passage below. Is this the evil Satan? Or the loyal opposition, the gatekeeper so to speak, there to ensure our breakthrough to the next level is well earned?


O sons of earth, like Saturn ye are bound with
three rings, hand and foot; body, Soul and Spirit.
These rings are the three days in the tomb.5 These
ye must break through, and conquer the force that
binds ye, a day for a ring. These binding conditions
must hold ye until the very force which bound ye
is turned into the stability of the indomitable will
of undaunted courage and unquenchable faith; the
faith that has touched the confines of life and has
penetrated its Mysteries. And when I am conquered
ye will find me Lucifer the brilliant Angel of Light,
the bright Star of the Morning who shall make all
things plain unto thee.
But to know me ye must meet me face to face.
Ye must see my gaunt arms reaching out for ye and
boldly walk into those ghastly limbs and tear the
mask from my dead and frozen face; must warm my
cold heart with the warmth of thy breasts. Come to
me and wrench from me the power of Silence; of
quiet contemplation; of standing still. To know me
ye must study me and find out my secret.
I come not to give ye my force. I cannot. Ye must
wrest it from me in battle. I am the dread God of
the Threshold guarding all Wisdom! How dare ye
pass me? I am placed here at the end of things to
weigh and measure ye all. After ye pass me there
is no other. Ye are free to pass onward and inward
toward the Fount of all Light and Wisdom. No more
can the forces assail ye nor the terrors of the Abyss
draw ye down; for ye have passed the edge and are
inside the Spiral and turn back only of thine own
free will.
But ye dare not pass me until ye meet me; until
ye feel the grip of my grizzly hands at thy throat
shutting off thy life’s breath; until ye feel my icy
breath on thy cheek. Thus must ye wrestle. If I
conquer, down into the Abyss ye go, to begin over
again thy Cycle of Manifestation. But if ye conquer
I am thy Servant and Savior.

[naste.de.lumina]

How gripreaper .

Maybe menudo if needed radicalize some conviction.
Only fun.
peace

[naste.de.lumina]

Hello Fred.
Inflection thought my friend.
Including being the bad boys taken by full consciousness, I leave them to their own conscience decide which individual plan for their own upliftment.
I'm pretty sure that the higher self of each indivualidade apparent on earth, has the best ability to use this profound experience (even if negative it is still valuable), to his own mastery.
Option - Other.
Thank you for your attention.
Wander Brazilian.

[Finefeather]

Hi Fred
Your poll is quite interesting so far...and I do not expect it to change too radically. It reflects the thinking on this forum and to me it looks very good.

I would love to see the results in a different sample of people...like the military...or in my own country, South Africa

Recent comments I have read in our news articles on rape and abuse indicate very strongly that they want the death sentence back...and fast !
No mercy...just string the guy up...less cost to the taxpayer. There was even a lot of talk of using old mine shafts to make sure they cannot escape.
Imagine all the ptb down a mineshaft...

[Bo Atkinson]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by Craig (here)
Could it be that as we are here in the now to learn could others be here to prevent learning? Like a video game where each successive challenge becomes harder? In that case what is at the end? A series of never ending challenges? Would they know they are a challenge or just programmed that way?

I like the video game analogy Craig, there's always the thrill of victory and accomplishment when yet another level is mastered isn't there? It also reminds me of the passage below. Is this the evil Satan? Or the loyal opposition, the gatekeeper so to speak, there to ensure our breakthrough to the next level is well earned?


O sons of earth....

Yes Fred and Craig, I too believe the game aspect has a place very high up the ladders of consciousness. Despite that this concept is most often forbidden... So we might call for justice in a court of law. Though justice was hijacked so long ago.

Contract law as well, might have been grossly distorted over earth's time track. Who really knows? Earth-being or animal nutrition is based upon the dying life force of other beings. Is this a pyramid scheme? Does such a contract function very well for ever? Is this a cycle devised by Lucifer, who let it come to this? Are light beings, (ones high up the ladders), provided with project-arenas, (Galaxy sectors?) Was it Lucifer screwing up, now letting others clean his mess? Or was it the Archon mythology of Gaia Sophia, who purportedly was in class one day, as a young Goddess on high, whose life-lab-experiment failed?... At least Gaia dove into her test tube, to suffer the fate of her being-animals, (to suffer and evolve with them, in some respect).

I expect the many individuals fell into sociopathic traps and will continue dealing with this (karma). The psychopaths too, may have specific, unfamiliar processes to go through, as specialized robots, who provide challenges, for life.

IMO humans have their unique fate arena-- To what extent has the individual human reached out towards justice, within their own life-plan? To what extent has each human fulfilled their higher purpose? Is there a human goal or reward, for reaching higher and in some pro-active manner? Did one improve upon the pyramid scheme, which tradition has called sustenance or called nutrition? Now that seems to me the highest human challenge of all. In that war-industries are the biggest employers. In that rehabilitative and creative arts are twarted by the psychopaths. Can love manifest as an actual upgrade-action, by upgrading life sustenance? Can the individual get out of the box set up by Lucifer's system? Can an individual move sufficiently inspired. Inspired to live in a positive epoch? (Without getting lazy on an easy street, on a sphere of light).

I wonder ~~~y

[WhiteFeather]

After Dick Cheney cleans out my dirty boiler that ran off of out dated, tired and obsolete fossil fuels. He and all his Assclown Party Friends would then be sent to exile in another universe. Preferably to a planet with not many trees and plantlife and or very minimal oxygen to breathe. Hey Kinda like what they have done to this planet. Karmas a Bitch.....

[Daozen]

None of the above.

If they've taken 100,000 lives, let them provide food and water for millions.

If they've suppressed technology for 40 years, let them spread beneficial tech in the cosmos for 400.

If they've made billions sick, make them cure trillions.

If they won't take this offer, life sentences or worse. Only a small, highly dangerous minority need to be dealth with harshly.

Remember their story is the story of Anakin Skywalker, who secretly hated his boss. That's why their 'conversion' has been prophesied, and why events on this planet are such a big deal.

Daozen.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Finefeather (here)
Hi Fred
Your poll is quite interesting so far...and I do not expect it to change too radically. It reflects the thinking on this forum and to me it looks very good.

I would love to see the results in a different sample of people...like the military...or in my own country, South Africa

Hi Ray. That would be interesting, but the best I can do is provide the link to the original version of this thread. There was no poll with that one, but for any who care to they can thumb through and see how we thought about it 2 years ago. There are some eyebrow raisers, and for various reasons. Some different names to boot.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...t-Would-YOU-Do

[mahalall]

Change our criminal mind through feeling the consequences of actions,

Some hope is coming out of the Indian judicial system through turning them into ashrams.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=b8tZX3dGSM8

[genevieve]

I especially agree with Reilly. Put them out in gardens where they produce their own food and food for others.

Gardening is a very quick way to raise consciousness.


Peace Love Joy & Harmony,
Genevieve

[Spiral]

I voted "Exile" under the impression that this must be off planet ?

It seems most have little grasp of what these entities are (& why they do rituals & child abuse etc), its probably just as well really...

There is no way these entities could be turned around or re-habilitated, its not possible, and who really wants their vibrations on this planet ?

If they can't be exiled to a prison planet with no escape (and a grim one hopefully ) then they should be put down, and then they can go through the second death, which is the only way they can be cleansed.

Putting them down would be a humane act, because they would suffer indescribable torments in pretty much the mirror effect of a positive having to watch vivisection or child abuse.

[music]

Hi Fred, Ray. Death for the human, or the lion, or the lamb is nothing to fear. It is merely birth into another phase or form of existence, or a return to the all. Yes, we are animals, and we have developed to the stage where we don’t kill and eat each other because we have these things called consciousness and individuation. We feel these things are wrong, and most would agree that is the case. Where we need to exercise care is when we start to anthropomorphise. When we put human traits onto an animal, we rob that animal of the dignity of its own spirit, and we divert it from the course that the energy contained within it has chosen for itself.

We chose this world of duality – of eternally opposed yet interacting/inter-reliant opposites – because it is the perfect space within we which we can learn the true value of our perfection. There is nothing to be learned in a state of perfection. As a worldly example, it is easy to be generous if we are rich, but how much more meaningful when we are poor? Yes, there is a place where the lion doesn’t kill the lamb, but that place is not within a duality framework – here, the lamb has chosen a form which will be eaten, as have we all.

Everyone ends life in a massive way every day. Are we going to waste time thinking about training our bodies not to kill bacteria and viruses within us? Do we attempt to take every step without killing any soil micro-organisms? Or do we get on with the business of doing what we came here for, which is the rediscovery of our perfection within imperfection. It is in doing so that we discover that the concept of “lion lying down with lamb” is a metaphor, not a concept that we need waste energy on, trying to shoe-horn into a reality that we specifically created to be the way it is. Ray, I doubt I missed your point in being literal, since you say “Like an animal...how do you go about convincing it not to kill for it's food...especially if it has been doing this for the last million years? ...you start feeding it until the instinct fades from it's unconsciousness...and a new consciousness is born”. Using the word “like” at the start, you are putting the entirety of what follows into the realm of the literal, and then using that as a metaphor for dealing with errant human souls. This is not a competition, we are not competing for points of favour, we are merely expressing how we see things. I don’t think it is helpful if every time someone expresses a point of view different to our own we assume they must have misunderstood what we were saying. True, this happens, I just don’t think it was the case here, and for our benefit, it is a pattern that can be observed.

Yes, we have conscience, but what we call morality, what we call good and evil, are human constructs. The natural world does not know good or evil, merely differing degrees of evolving consciousness that indicate that this world of strife is not our true nature, merely a game we are playing. I can put myself in the place of the lamb and be perfectly OK with being eaten, because eventually as a human I will eaten too.

[zen deik]

Until you can understand what created the offence they should be studied to gain understanding about prevention of cause and effect to prevent recurrence

[Deega]

Thanks Mahalall, I voted for ''rehabilitation'', and this video said it all, wonderful what the spiritual can do, loved it!

Posted by mahalall (here)
Change our criminal mind through feeling the consequences of actions,

Some hope is coming out of the Indian judicial system through turning them into ashrams.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=b8tZX3dGSM8

[Craig]

Fred,

Can I be as bold as to ask has anybody had a change of heart since Boston? If a false flag I still vote for death as music eloquently said body death isn't end so just wipe them from this time and let them become some other entities problem