Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Icare (here)
2. Jim kept mentioning we are the creators of the universe/s and I understand that in some way. But it sounds as if he believes there is no such thing as the original Source (what I used to refer to as God).
Having a Chistian background, though a very open-minded one, I find myself unable to accept that. When I consider that we are all parts or sparks of Source and we are all one ultimately, I still believe that the whole is more than its parts (like a melody can be more than the single notes). What is your take on that?

The only honest answer is that I don't know! Most certainly, back in the mists of time (and there have been many universes, LONG before the 'Big Bang', which is relatively recent if it happened at all!), we were all god-like beings with immense power and ability. Our current state is a very fallen, small and restricted one. What happened before that, I have no strong idea.

Dipping in briefly, there's a snippet I once heard vaguely relating to this. I cannot now place where it came from, it may've been a contactee account. What was hinted at, purportedly, is that God, or "The Source", though it is the Creator force (of which we are a part), is not in fact the be all and end all. As the source and also the convergence of All-that-is, it's not the beginning, so nor the ultimate end. Something existing above and beyond Source. What that might be is unknowable, because supposedly it's even beyond those high up in Spirit. They don't know either.

A theory, a claim, or just an idea, I don't know. Whether it's even true, I wouldn't like to guess. But just the thought of it kind of blows the mind a little bit.

[Foxie Loxie]

This makes me think of a comment, I believe by Linda M. H. She had a conversation with an "insider" who mentioned she "wouldn't want to know" about the darkness that lies out beyond all the Universes! I suppose that is why it seems "safer" to just remain within the box of a Belief System; that way one does not have to think about what might be!!

[Icare]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Icare (here)
1. It has been said that Hubbard's books have been altered and one should try and buy a really old one. I managed to get a copy from 1985/1986. Is that old enough or should I try finding an even older one?

Everything started to be altered round 1982. Bill Robertson drew the line at that year, that the only materials he would ever use or refer to in his ongoing research were 1981 or earlier.

Posted by Icare (here)
2. Jim kept mentioning we are the creators of the universe/s and I understand that in some way. But it sounds as if he believes there is no such thing as the original Source (what I used to refer to as God).
Having a Chistian background, though a very open-minded one, I find myself unable to accept that. When I consider that we are all parts or sparks of Source and we are all one ultimately, I still believe that the whole is more than its parts (like a melody can be more than the single notes). What is your take on that?

The only honest answer is that I don't know! Most certainly, back in the mists of time (and there have been many universes, LONG before the 'Big Bang', which is relatively recent if it happened at all!), we were all god-like beings with immense power and ability. Our current state is a very fallen, small and restricted one. What happened before that, I have no strong idea.

Posted by Icare (here)
3. Jim says by reading/doing dianetics alone one can become clear, so obviously I'm going to try. But he also says not everyone is a thetan. What does one do if one finds out one is actually not a thetan?
What then?

Jim's talking nonsense if he ever said that. He always had a bit of a problem explaining things clearly, so maybe that's not what he meant!

A 'thetan' is simply a word for a soul or spirit. Nothing else. Hubbard coined the term because in everyday language, the words 'soul and spirit' are so very much misunderstood and misused. So he started from scratch, as it were, and used a new word which he defined clearly.

Every human has a soul or spirit as part of their composite make-up, and a soul or spirit (a 'thetan') is what YOU are. Guaranteed, with no exceptions! It's fundamentally eternal and indestructible, and has its own memory throughout all time, though all kinds of things can happen to it during its existence.

Dear Bill, it took me ages, but I have finally found where Jim says that about dianetics. My computer skills are extremely limited, so I don't know how to get a quote over here from the other thread, so I just copied it:

"dianetics by itself can make you go clear

jim "

It's in post 392.



And the thing about not everyone having a thetan is around post 423.

Quote:

"[...]

thetans (eyes of a spirit) are being dumped on this planet from many systems ... not just this galaxy ... it is on the rim of this galaxy so it is a handy place to dump unwanted material ... but that is real Thetans, (remember the spirit is outside the box using the thetan to see inside the box) .. The GE's just keep making bodies ... but the number of Thetans that are here are only those that are dumped here ... so the amount of bodies being created here is happening much faster than they can dump Thetans here so that is why you get more GE's than Thetans ..

[...]

jim..."

Now if that is the case that means somebody who works with dianetics could find out he hasn't got a thetan, no?


P.S. That little joke of yours made me chuckle all afternoon.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Icare (here)
"dianetics by itself can make you go clear

jim "

It's in post 392.

Yes, that's correct.

Posted by Icare (here)
And the thing about not everyone having a thetan is around post 423.

Quote:

"[...]

thetans (eyes of a spirit) are being dumped on this planet from many systems ... not just this galaxy ... it is on the rim of this galaxy so it is a handy place to dump unwanted material ... but that is real Thetans, (remember the spirit is outside the box using the thetan to see inside the box) .. The GE's just keep making bodies ... but the number of Thetans that are here are only those that are dumped here ... so the amount of bodies being created here is happening much faster than they can dump Thetans here so that is why you get more GE's than Thetans ..

[...]

jim..."

Now if that is the case that means somebody who works with dianetics could find out he hasn't got a thetan, no?

That's a bunch of pure nonsense from Jim. He does NOT write well, and understands much less then he thinks he does. That's not a good combination!

He has some interesting intuitions about some things, which he has great trouble putting into words. And he has some very wild (and wrong!) ideas that he then turns into statements that aren't helpful to anyone.

He's not done a lot of auditing, and doesn't understand a lot of Hubbard's work (and none of Bill Robertson's, which he's totally unfamiliar with). Most of his ideas are from having read Hubbard's early books, and then kind of going off on his own.

Posted by Icare (here)
P.S. That little joke of yours made me chuckle all afternoon.

[kanishk]

I was also misdirected because of this. But then I realized its not correct. Jim actually never gone through books also. In 2017 I gave him all the materials, books and audio lectures etc that he never had. Came to know that he never read even basic books also. Even after spending some time in Church he never allowed to get auditing.

He had many spiritual things happened to him from childhood and eventually found Scientology, but unfortunately he was never allowed or been kept away from getting any auditing or receive any courses. I think church tried many kinds of things on him so that he dosent get audited. And also put in an idea somehow in him that he doesn't need auditing, that getting an auditing will ruin his case.

I believe his supernatural experiences and the things he learned from it. They are truly amazing. They really happened to him, and he connected it with the Axioms of Scientology and dianetics.

I feel there is a some kind of programming put into him or maybe some entities are used to program him to keep blocking the way forward spiritually. And there are people similer to him too. Maybe this infiltrated Church is also working on spiritual realms to block the spread of Scientology technology as like on physical realms altering the books and technology etc.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by kanishk (here)
I was also misdirected because of this. But then I realized its not correct. Jim actually never gone through books also. In 2017 I gave him all the materials, books and audio lectures etc that he never had. Came to know that he never read even basic books also. Even after spending some time in Church he never allowed to get auditing.

He had many spiritual things happened to him from childhood and eventually found Scientology, but unfortunately he was never allowed or been kept away from getting any auditing or receive any courses. I think church tried many kinds of things on him so that he dosent get audited. And also put in an idea somehow in him that he doesn't need auditing, that getting an auditing will ruin his case.

I believe his supernatural experiences and the things he learned from it. They are truly amazing. They really happened to him, and he connected it with the Axioms of Scientology and dianetics.

I feel there is a some kind of programming put into him or maybe some entities are used to program him to keep blocking the way forward spiritually. And there are people similer to him too. Maybe this infiltrated Church is also working on spiritual realms to block the spread of Scientology technology as like on physical realms altering the books and technology etc.

Yes, many thanks. That's all very well put. (And it's correct!)

Jim (jiminii) is a good guy, and always meant well, but he was retired from the main forum because he was causing a degree of chaos (and even upset) with his frequent mis-statements, mis-explanations, and misunderstandings. We've left all his posts in place, but he is NOT to be regarded as an authority on the subject. That's pretty important.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Aviator (here)
Thx a lot for opening and continuing this thread, it's a pleasure to read your responses to some of these questions.

Would you like to talk a little more about your experience with Ron’s Org (Scientology)?

Yes, for sure. My answers here won't be too in-depth or technical, or else many people reading this might not be able to follow me very easily (or, maybe not at all ). You're most welcome to PM me, if you like (as is anyone else with quite some background knowledge already), and I can probably enlarge on some of this to quite some degree.

What is your opinion about L. Ron Hubbard?

The words of Ken Ogger ('The Pilot') come to mind: "L. Ron Hubbard was a self-taught intuitive genius."

I think that says it perfectly.

What do you know and/or think about

1. Hubbard’s early contacts with black magic, Aleister Crowley, Jack Parsons (the rocket scientist) etc.

I think he wanted to investigate (and experience) what many people call 'the occult', primarily because he wanted to know and learn as much as he possibly could about the powers and limitations of the mind. So he simply explored everything he could at that early time, turning over every stone.

In Hubbard's later work, as you may know, he created a number of processes and procedures that would DEFEND against 'black magic', and/or remedy its harmful effects on people. In order to do that, one has to understand how black magic works. Hubbard was most definitely not any kind of 'black magician'.

2. Dianetics

When properly and ethically applied, it can work miracles, and easily, too.

I say 'when properly and ethically applied'. Here's an EXACT analogy.

If you take your car to an auto mechanic for repair, you need to know that not only are they skilled and competent, but that they're also ethical, and won't rip you off. And some mechanics DO rip people off... in three possible ways:

1. They can simply overcharge for work that another might do for half the cost, or less.
2. They might do unnecessary work, and then bill you for all the extra parts and labor.
3. They might even create a problem, or deliberately leave a problem unrepaired, so that after paying $500 for the work, they know you'd have to come back a month later and spent another $500 on something that they knew was going to cause the next problem. If a mechanic was really unscrupulous (and very clever), they could easily get you coming back for more 'necessary' work, month after month after month.

3. Scientology in the 1950s (PDCs etc.)

A lot of Hubbard's early work, and the body of techniques he developed, was very powerful indeed. But one of the problems with some of that was that it didn't work 100% reliably on absolutely everyone... maybe just most people.

He wanted to create a methodology that trained (but maybe relatively inexperienced) councilors (called 'auditors') could do with equally inexperienced newcomer clients, and achieve dependable, predictable results each time. So in the mid- to late-1950s (if I have my dates right), he refined his approach, carefully codified it all, and some of the early but very powerful 'hit-and-miss' techniques were relegated to be deployed only optionally.

4. Scientology in the 1960s (OT levels, Sea Org)

The 'OT levels' were all valid, and technically worked extremely well. But round about that time, or beginning at that time, Hubbard started to become more and more paranoid — not without some good reason, as just about every government and/or agency was after him, and there were serious ongoing attempts to infiltrate the 'Church'. (Note that the infiltrations eventually succeeded, in the late 70s and early 80s.)

Hence the 'Sea Org' was founded, which was regimented in a quasi-military way, although in many respects it soon became very clear that Hubbard went way over the top in his defensive response.

I do recommend this excellent book by Peter Moon, the author of the 'Montauk' series. He was in the Sea Org in the 1970s, and writes this fascinating autobiographical account of all his experiences, including with Hubbard both directly and indirectly. Don't be put off by the terrible title!

• The Montauk Book of the Dead
  https://amazon.com/Montauk-Book-Dead-Moon-Peter

5. Hubbard in the 1970s and 1980s (was he replaced by a double or clone?)

I don't think he was 'replaced' in the way that some have asserted he might have been. But rather like Saddam Hussein (and maybe many others!) he may well have had a couple of body doubles in play. Logically, that might make a lot of sense. But I've never heard that reported seriously by anyone whose word I trust.

6. Strange circumstances about Hubbard’s hideout and death

Yes, many strange circumstances. Here's one video, a 2003 seminar presentation by Allen Wright (who was a friend of mine, and knew a lot of stuff) — called When did L. Ron Hubbard die?

• http://avalonlibrary.net/When_did_L....ntion_2003.mp4

It's 33 mins long. The video quality isn't the best, but it's well worth listening to for anyone with some interest in the topic. As best I know, this is the first time it's been posted in the public domain. It's part of my (quite extensive) personal library, and is nowhere on YouTube or on any other site.

7. The OT3 Story

Well, it seems wild, and all logistically impossible. But all I can say is that if one 'audits' (processes) using the prescribed techniques and procedures, real things are released and real benefits result. That's definitive. So, pragmatically speaking, it works very well. The whole 'backstory' may not really matter too much.

Here's a very silly, deliberately exaggerated analogy. It's NOT a very good analogy — at all! For many reasons — but you may get the point I'm making.

You go to a doctor with a stomach complaint. He says, "Ah, a big bad boogie-woogie bird has visited you in your sleep and laid its eggs inside you. Just take these antibiotics." So you take the antibiotics.... and then, next week, you're much better.

8. “Old” and “New” OT levels (NOTs)

The 'old' OT levels worked just fine (and they still would, though few people do them any more). When the 'new' OT levels were developed and substituted — NOTs, meaning OT5, and then OT7 — they constituted an incomplete procedure, and one that could (by its nature) NEVER complete.

That's why it simply (and literally) never ended. Some people did three sessions a day on OT7, every day, for 15 or more years. OMG. One might figure they'd have realized that there was something wrong!

Another analogy, this time an exact one again: it's like trying to empty a bath tub with the taps still on. One has to find a way to turn the taps OFF... and then empty the bath.

That's what 'Captain' Bill Robertson did (see the next question below) when he researched and developed the successor-replacement for OT5 and OT7 in 1986, which he called 'Excalibur'. That was a piece of breakthrough brilliance, and it works perfectly.

There's no need now for ANYONE to do OT5 and OT7. If they do, they'll just get into the hamster-wheel never-ending thing again.

9. Captain Bill Robertson

I knew him personally: not well, but I spent some time with him and talked with him many times. I was privileged to have had that opportunity to do so. He was a remarkable, powerful man, of the highest integrity. I have the greatest respect for him, and for all his (very extensive) post-LRH research work which extends all the OT levels many magnitudes further.

10. Upper OT Levels above OT8

They all do exactly what they say they'll do, all the way to the last levels Bill Robertson developed, in 1990. He took all the basics of Hubbard's research, and built on that with new discoveries and insights of his own that extended the entire 'Bridge' really a very long way. The entire edifice he developed was 100% entirely logical and sound.

[James Newell]

This is a very good writeup Bill. I agree with pretty much everything. One small point, they didn't codify the processes until the mid sixties, when he came out with the basic grade chart. I could add details but you did such a concise job why push it.

[James Newell]

If one has some questions Re Scientology or Dianetics I might be of assist. I am high up in the Ot Levels and have also trained on the L's. I am an interned Class VIII and I have audited many thousands of hours on others ( Hundreds of people). So ask away and I'll tell you my opinions or direct you to a tech reference. I left the Church a few years ago and still am actively auditing and training.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Aviator (here)
Thanks for your specific response to all my questions and items, also for the very interesting video.

Based on my own experiences and investigations I agree with you in most of your findings and opinions. Original Scientology is a fascinating workable technology.

One of the things I don’t fully understand yet is the fact that, on one hand, Hubbard was able to come up with this spectacular workable technology by himself without getting confused and distracted by all the insanity and false data we face here on this planet. On the other hand he became kind of psychotic later in his lifetime and lost complete control over his own creation. In order to fully understand him and his appearance on planet earth, we probably need some more (maybe still hidden) data regarding his background and the game he was/is involved in.

What do you think?

Well, I was never in the 'Church', and never knew Hubbard. But of course, I've heard all the stories.

James Newell (see his post above) may be able to say more.

Four responses to the question! All of them may apply.

• Some of the reports will definitely be exaggerated. One of the things that definitely occurred — because Scientology processing is such a necessarily exact thing — is that if processing mistakes were made, and someone ended up more upset as a result (and this can most definitely happen), then that person might easily get super-vehemently-critical of Hubbard.
  
  Many (or most!) of those posting on the ex-Scientology forums definitely don't seem in very good shape. Whatever happened with those people, something went badly wrong. I feel I can state that as a fact.

• Peter Moon, in his excellent and fascinating Scientology autobiography The Montauk Book of the Dead (see my answer #4 in my post above) addresses this question himself. He explains in some detail how many of the excesses (and in some cases, sheer insanity!) displayed in the Sea Org did NOT originate from Hubbard, but from others senior in the organization. I believe (but do not know for sure) that James Newell might corroborate this, at least in part.

• I once asked this very question to someone I knew well, an 'old-timer' who'd been in the 'Church' since 1952: a wonderful man, who was highly skilled and trained, had known Hubbard personally, and had seen just about everything. (He'd left the Church' many years ago, after it had been taken over in the early 1980s.)
  
  He pointed out that Hubbard had done a great deal of his research and development on himself, including experimental processes that he'd abandoned because they didn't work, or didn't work well enough. The very rough analogy (not a good one, but you get the point!) is like a brain surgeon trying out new procedures on himself in the mirror. If things go wrong, he may learn a lot, but there'd be scars, and maybe some residual malfunctions.

• As some reading this may well understand (from their own experience!) Hubbard was certainly under attack almost ALL THE TIME, including from entities — which Scientology has all the processes and understanding needed to address and handle. But Hubbard himself never completed all the necessary research into entity handling. This is important to understand. That was continued and extended in the mid- to late-1980s by Bill Robertson, and is now complete.

[James Newell]

I agree once again with you Bill: Capt Bill completed the upper levels and may the universe never be the same. It will be a BETTER game.

[Gracy]

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
[...]


THE ROLE OF THE EARTH
November 1952
[excerpts, fair use]

I [LRH] took a little girl one night during a demonstration and put her on the E-Meter - started questioning her and the next thing you knew this little girl was shaking in such a degree that the chair legs were rattling against the floor - I was going at her about something just to show the class what the series of questions would be about current life - and she said: "You mustn't ask me any questions. You mustn't ask me any questions. You mustn't. You mustn't. You mustn't."

"Where are you?"

"I am sitting before a big panel... I didn't use to sit there - I am sitting there right now. This - that's me. I - I sit in front of this panel. This is my job! This is my job. I am not supposed to tell you what my job is, but there's this panel." and so forth.

I said: "It's a communicator switchboard"

"No-ooo!" and she just starts going on .

I said: "Well, you wouldn't mind telling me the codes that go across the panel..." and she passed right straight on out. She'd never heard of bodies in pawn or other governments or invader forces or anything of the sort. So I snapped her around and carried on with the rest of the questioning, and was simply able to do so because I happened to know - this is a very funny thing to say - but I happen to know her commanding officer! And gave her - silly, isn't it - and gave her the messages which had gone across her panel an hour before, at which moment she quieted down.

And she says: "Well, I'll probably be taken all to pieces in the morning". And so I said: "No, you will not be." And she wasn't. But she was a communicator who was running a communications switchboard. She's a communicator in a system known as the space stations.

[...]

... the being, in this case, occupies at least two bodies, one on Earth and the other in front of a communication panel on a space station somewhere in the solar system's asteroid belt.

Off the wall?

As much as time travelers or trans-dimensional entities or ETs from the Pleiades or Orion or a Duncan O'Finioan vaporizing "enemies" in the jungles of Vietnam by holding hands with fellow vaporizers (wonder if they sang Kumbaya?).

It would have been even more interesting if the space station communicator were also being audited at the same time LRH was auditing the little girl on Earth.

So, jim's theta body may not be receiving auditing on Earth, but may be receiving auditing via one or more of his bodies in other locations.

I find this interesting. for starters, if the space station communicator were also being audited at the same time, would that process also translate to mean "audit"? I mean like, if this expanded out to where this little girl had 10 lives going on all at once, all across time and space, and all of them being audited at the same time, would all of those auditors know that they are doing scientology, by definition?


not to get technical, but likeley, Hubbard himself would only be known to the little girl point of view here on earth? They might all be doing the same thing but inspired by different people in their realm and called something different? would this be like looking at the busy legs of an octopus, all in coopration with the main brain but not realizing, or recognizing each other cos of their limited point of view? like the blind men describing the elephant. All of them are right what they sense but only in a limited way.


What I am trying to get at is might there be a bigger picture here? sorry I am not so good at trying to explain some things.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Gracy May (here)

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
[...]

THE ROLE OF THE EARTH
November 1952
[excerpts, fair use]

I [LRH] took a little girl one night during a demonstration and put her on the E-Meter - started questioning her and the next thing you knew this little girl was shaking in such a degree that the chair legs were rattling against the floor - I was going at her about something just to show the class what the series of questions would be about current life - and she said: "You mustn't ask me any questions. You mustn't ask me any questions. You mustn't. You mustn't. You mustn't."

"Where are you?"

"I am sitting before a big panel... I didn't use to sit there - I am sitting there right now. This - that's me. I - I sit in front of this panel. This is my job! This is my job. I am not supposed to tell you what my job is, but there's this panel." and so forth.

I said: "It's a communicator switchboard"

"No-ooo!" and she just starts going on .

I said: "Well, you wouldn't mind telling me the codes that go across the panel..." and she passed right straight on out. She'd never heard of bodies in pawn or other governments or invader forces or anything of the sort. So I snapped her around and carried on with the rest of the questioning, and was simply able to do so because I happened to know - this is a very funny thing to say - but I happen to know her commanding officer! And gave her - silly, isn't it - and gave her the messages which had gone across her panel an hour before, at which moment she quieted down.

And she says: "Well, I'll probably be taken all to pieces in the morning". And so I said: "No, you will not be." And she wasn't. But she was a communicator who was running a communications switchboard. She's a communicator in a system known as the space stations.

[...]

... the being, in this case, occupies at least two bodies, one on Earth and the other in front of a communication panel on a space station somewhere in the solar system's asteroid belt.

Off the wall?

As much as time travelers or trans-dimensional entities or ETs from the Pleiades or Orion or a Duncan O'Finioan vaporizing "enemies" in the jungles of Vietnam by holding hands with fellow vaporizers (wonder if they sang Kumbaya?).

It would have been even more interesting if the space station communicator were also being audited at the same time LRH was auditing the little girl on Earth.

So, jim's theta body may not be receiving auditing on Earth, but may be receiving auditing via one or more of his bodies in other locations.

I find this interesting. for starters, if the space station communicator were also being audited at the same time, would that process also translate to mean "audit"? I mean like, if this expanded out to where this little girl had 10 lives going on all at once, all across time and space, and all of them being audited at the same time, would all of those auditors know that they are doing scientology, by definition?

not to get technical, but likeley, Hubbard himself would only be known to the little girl point of view here on earth? They might all be doing the same thing but inspired by different people in their realm and called something different? would this be like looking at the busy legs of an octopus, all in coopration with the main brain but not realizing, or recognizing each other cos of their limited point of view? like the blind men describing the elephant. All of them are right what they sense but only in a limited way.

What I am trying to get at is might there be a bigger picture here? sorry I am not so good at trying to explain some things.

Yes, interestingly complicated!

My best answer is that one kind of focuses one's telepathic communication with intention. One kind of 'aims' it, like an arrow. And that 'aim' can be specific in any way one wishes: space, time, other dimensions, or any combo of those.

The recipient of the communication need not know anything other than there's a message reaching him or her, and then a conversation ensues. This can often go on below the level of conscious awareness of the recipient. (But permission to interact is still obtained, of course.) It's subtle stuff.

When doing this kind of thing, the E-meter is VERY useful to kind of guide one, rather like an aiming feedback device. (A pendulum might work as well, but the E-meter is more precise!) What happens is that when that contact is made, there's a 'read' (a significant movement) of the E-meter needle to the right.

The stronger the read, the better the contact. It's a little like playing that child's game of 'hot and cold'. One kind of zooms in that way, and it can be impressively accurate.

[Hervé]

Posted by Gracy May (here)
[...]
I find this interesting. for starters, if the space station communicator were also being audited at the same time, would that process also translate to mean "audit"? I mean like, if this expanded out to where this little girl had 10 lives going on all at once, all across time and space, and all of them being audited at the same time, would all of those auditors know that they are doing scientology, by definition?

not to get technical, but likeley, Hubbard himself would only be known to the little girl point of view here on earth? They might all be doing the same thing but inspired by different people in their realm and called something different? would this be like looking at the busy legs of an octopus, all in coopration with the main brain but not realizing, or recognizing each other cos of their limited point of view? like the blind men describing the elephant. All of them are right what they sense but only in a limited way.

What I am trying to get at is might there be a bigger picture here? sorry I am not so good at trying to explain some things.

Hello Gracy May, no easy answer to your question beside some "everything is possible" and your guess is as good as mine.

A bigger picture is always possible but, as a reverse comparison, it mostly seems like the splitting of personalities all cohabiting within a single body and unaware of the existence of the other personalities and keeping switching from one to the other on cue. If that makes sense? "Auditing" in that case consists of re-integrating the split pieces back into the original, non-split one and, yes, each one being re-integrated would affect the others.

Whether on earth, above or below it, the main divide is between the enslavement, robotization and mind control of humans via MKultra, mass hypnosis, psychotronics, etc. and the undoing of such with various therapies. In the end, whether scientology or some other therapies, the key factor is: is it beneficial with some therapeutic values? Does it work? Is it yielding the intended, expected result?

[James Newell]

Way back in the early fifties Hubbard started to run into a bunch of stuff, stuff that wasn't politically correct, like past lives, oob phenomena etc. Even the Dianetics book is too far out still for many re prenatals. Yes the fetus knows and is aware.
He basically jumped into a **** storm. When he outed the intell agencies for mkultra stuff, in Science of Survival in 1951, he called it PDH for pain, drug, hypnosis. He made more high level enemies.

He found it was best to handle some basic aberrational areas first before you get on the rickety ladder of handling spirits etc. He called it the grade chart. These handled give a good base to confront the other areas. Instead of standing on a rickety ladder you have a stable building and you add good stable floors as you go up

Clear IS a very real state. It is quite significant to you that you attained something important as a being. Those who say Clear is nothing or the OT states are BS have missed very big areas. Too bad for them. You can't do one level with reality without getting in the earlier level, seems there is a self protect built in.

The above tape excerpt was part of the research, thanks to all that helped. They were brave souls.

And alas the now Church of Scientology is a real estate scam. Oh well some can and will do something about it.

[Gracy]

Maybe i should have waited til i finished slowly going through this thread to ask questions but the little girl being audited by Hubbard really caught my attention. Mainly the last 2 lines.

It would have been even more interesting if the space station communicator were also being audited at the same time LRH was auditing the little girl on Earth.

So, jim's theta body may not be receiving auditing on Earth, but may be receiving auditing via one or more of his bodies in other locations.

I was thinking for the space station communicator to be also audited would take a separate event, but Bill are you saying here Hubbard could have audited both?

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
My best answer is that one kind of focuses one's telepathic communication with intention. One kind of 'aims' it, like an arrow. And that 'aim' can be specific in any way one wishes: space, time, other dimensions, or any combo of those.

The recipient of the communication need not know anything other than there's a message reaching him or her, and then a conversation ensues. This can often go on below the level of conscious awareness of the recipient. (But permission to interact is still obtained, of course.) It's subtle stuff.

is this like "spooky action at a distance"? But how does the emeter get involved at a distance?



Or if I understand Herve right, maybe there is only 1 being in this case, but a bein that has been fragmented? if this is the case can any one of the splits be audited or would it have to be done on the original being? Or all of them at the same time? This makes my head hurt

Posted by Hervé (here)
A bigger picture is always possible but, as a reverse comparison, it mostly seems like the splitting of personalities all cohabiting within a single body and unaware of the existence of the other personalities and keeping switching from one to the other on cue. If that makes sense? "Auditing" in that case consists of re-integrating the split pieces back into the original, non-split one and, yes, each one being re-integrated would affect the others.

[Hervé]

Posted by Gracy May (here)
[...] This makes my head hurt
[...]

I am sorry about that

A deeper digging into the "anecdote" should make it obvious that the actual individual being audited is the space station communicator who was being questioned via the little girl's body on earth... fearing of getting into trouble with her hierarchical superior/manager for not obeying his/her order of not answering any questions. So, yes, "spooky action at a distance."

The E-Meter registers changes in electrical energy flows which can be influenced by "thoughts"/emotions whether the thoughts/emotions are originating from the little girl or the communicator... you know... telepathy....

Now, the point I was trying to make is if the communicator was also being audited and being asked about what she was doing down there on earth? (after all, apparently, Hubbard was looking at her ticker messages board over her shoulder on that space station; being buddy with the commanding officer [could be a DUMB station for all I know]) and answering something to the effect of:

"Oh, well, I am monitoring the developments of Hubbard's research in Dianetics and reporting it here..."

In which case, the little girl becomes an "alien spy."

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Gracy May (here)

is this like "spooky action at a distance"? But how does the emeter get involved at a distance?
[ ... ]This makes my head hurt

Yes, it's interesting! Let me see if I can explain it better.

The principles of auditing any other being at a distance are EXACTLY the same as (for instance) a kinesiologist or a healer of any kind operating as a 'surrogate'.

In Kinesiology, for instance (muscle testing), a remote practitioner can muscle test themselves (or even another person) when their attention is tuned into their client who may be on the other side of the world. This is commonly done.

Dowsers using pendulums do exactly the same thing, and so do Radionics practitioners.

It's all 'spooky action at a distance' (Einstein's phrase to describe non-local communication or influence), but that's how telepathy works as well. It's all entirely non-physical. There are no 'particles' traveling around anywhere. It's all instant, no matter how great the distance.

But (for instance, just as an example), if I'm auditing you remotely, I can have the meter at my end of things, and I'd still see your 'reads' (needle movements on the meter dial) as if you were connected to it yourself. It's an exact parallel to the remote muscle-testing thing.

It's not the meter that operating remotely. (Or doing anything 'spooky'!) The meter is ONLY connected to me. But it's ME who's tuned into YOU.

The 'relay' thing is just an extension of this principle, like connecting invisible wires together in a circuit.

Again, as an example, I could be auditing you at a distance, and you could in turn be talking to a friend in the same room. If you were acting as an auditor yourself (and asking your friend certain questions and listening carefully to the answers), if I was tuned into you, who's tuned into them, I'd see their reads, too.

It's all very miraculous and remarkable, but this is commonplace, and also very reliable. After one gets used to it (again, as do dowsers, healers, kinesiologists and radionics practitioners — and remote viewers, too, for that matter), one takes it in one's stride, and it's just another tool to use in the process of helping others.

[johnf]

I had a short conversation with my brother last summer, about the MSM idea that the e-meter is used to electroshock people into thinking they are experiencing past lives came up.
My brother happens to be an engineer, so I started the conversation with the statement that the e-meter is basically an ohm meter.
Then I went on to explain how asking questions directs the persons attention to an area of stress
and that contact discharges the memory, thereby lowering the bodies resistance. The expressions on his face were
something else, almost as accurate as a metered session. Well actually those expressions are indications of success as much as the meter actions. As well as his statement that well that actually sounds pretty good!
In this case a release of charge around false data, and a heartfelt cognition.


I still have a whole area of questions around the actual source of the axiom's, the factors, etc. The tech itself seems to have come from an entirely different source than the personality that delivered the information on the tapes. The idea that we are multi leveled, complex creatures is a good idea to keep in mind when looking at this subject. Hubbard liked to impress people by throwing out these anecdotes
like the story about the girl being audited about the control panel, without the definitions and explanations.

I had a roommate for a while that was in the sea org, and he said that Hubbard mentioned an L group. My friend was saying that these beings
were a source of a lot of the information that became the technology. The phonetic syllable el, as in elevated, elated, and of course the infamous
Elohim, has a very interesting role in various languages, and religious ideas. When I looked up L group I ran into a channeling handbook by L/L research, the group that was the source of The Law of One material. So I realize how controversial this is but the persistence of that syllable is pretty interesting stuff. The other side of this was my roommates conversations he had with his own L group which was a particular collection of the new age ascended masters. He was certain that these groups were the same. Hubbard seemed to have accepted a particular challenge concerning the information being shared, and that was shaped by his personality, and by the collisions with various power groups on the planet. I remember numerous people in the eighties and nineties insisting that Hubbard started out channeling. Q is another interesting letter with associations with Hubbard and, well other controversial things.



John

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by johnf (here)
I had a short conversation with my brother last summer, about the MSM idea that the e-meter is used to electroshock people into thinking they are experiencing past lives came up.

Well, they'd have to be very sensitive.

I've had my meter for 24 (twenty-four) years, and its first pair of AA batteries lasted 21 (twenty-one) years.

That's how VERY little current it uses. It's so totally tiny, it would need a highly specialist device to measure it. I don't think you could electroshock a mosquito with it!