Do schools kill creativity?

[McMaster]

Great video from TED. This guy talking has some good thoughts about this. And he also says that modern society strip mines our head the way we strip mine the planet, just to suit the needs of the industrys.

Do schools kill creativity?

[Dale]

Do schools kill creativity?

Yes.

I work at a college, and I can absolutely affirm this.

Let me also add to the discussion. I have met many great professors and teachers. The blame cannot be placed on the shoulders of these individuals, or even educators as a whole. We, instead, need to look at the system in which these individuals are working under.

And he also says that modern society strip mines our head the way we strip mine the planet, just to suit the needs of the industrys.

I've often said, somewhat jokingly, that "You don't go to school to do what you want, you go to school to do what someone else wants you to do."

[cloud9]

When I saw this video a few days ago, I thought of starting a thread about it but finally I didn't do it; I'm glad the video came here anyway, it's funny and nice and tells many trues. Thank you.

[Humble Janitor]

You could make this argument but you need to understand that schools do often have art programs. They're not as deep as they should be and when it comes time to save money on school budgets, arts and humanities are always on the chopping block.

I don't think that constant instruction and testing does much for a creative student.

[Carmody]

Do schools kill creativity?

Yes.

Posted by The_Cipher_Replied (here)
Do schools kill creativity?

Yes.

I work at a college, and I can absolutely affirm this.

Let me also add to the discussion. I have met many great professors and teachers. The blame cannot be placed on the shoulders of these individuals, or even educators as a whole. We, instead, need to look at the system in which these individuals are working under.



I've often said, somewhat jokingly, that "You don't go to school to do what you want, you go to school to do what someone else wants you to do."

My experience as well. But I have never worked at one, but I've got teachers in the family ..and been told I'd make a fun teacher/prof.

My problem is that I'd get the kids in trouble. I'd not allow them to settle for less, and you know how the young can go overboard on things. As I did.

I tell the young today that their indignation and clarity is justified and real. And that indignation and clarity they have now, the annals of time will attempt to soften it and pull it from them. The view is simple, I tell them, the reality is simple. Don't let lies, time, and life pull that truth from you..for they will try. And in almost all of your friends..this will succeed, it will work.And you will watch the light to life go dull in their minds. So you have a choice to make. Will you hold on to that moment and move into being fully aware.. or will you let it die inside you? Think.

So you can see how I would quickly get myself into trouble.


Of course, not exactly in this order..but I'd been on a high dose hallucinogen, been in handcuffs, in a bar fight where my head was split open, operated on without anesthetic while being held down by four people, and some other stuff.....all before getting out of kindergarten, ie age 5 years for some of it and younger for some. I'm not kidding! The stories for each instance would have to be told so it makes sense but...there you go. They are all true. I had my eyes opened early. school of hard knocks, if you can survive it.

[Rimbaud]

Depends on the Teacher surely?

Rimbaud

[Decibellistics]

Totally.

I'm an audio engineer in school right now....It is an art form combined with technical applications.

The problem isn't the techy stuff vs the aesthetic....though some of the students tend to get caught up in the tech aspect.

The true problem, is attempting to integrate an art form into capitalism.
The kids take away from the beauty of creating art and categorize themselves and the artists they record into a generic format that is geared to sell sell sell.

We are taking beautiful things that humans can be creative with, and in turn attempting to sell them. It's like Pop Art. It's depressing.......don't get me started on the politics either.....I'm not and will not allow myself to become part of that cult of thought within the program either.....it's all based around role-playing. This is what you're going to be treated like when you get BIG.....sit here and be a robot and do what someone tells you to do. Because nobody gives a **** about your opinion. Thanks but, no thanks.....Go on without me. Oh yea, don't forget the time limitations and the beauracracy, and the expectations either.

[xbusymom]

wonderful video... and so true...
he mentions that the public education system was developed specifically for the industrial age...
...here is the real story (free PDF download)
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

[Celine]

As an alumni of school boards and a variety of parent/teacher organizations... I can say that education does not kill creativity... but the public education system does...

I was never strict about homework and tried to always make sure they learned more between 4pm and 7pm then they ever could between 9amm and 3pm ...


Hug trees..make stories with the clouds and always visit the elves.

[Victoria Tintagel]

Hey Avalonians, thanks for this valuable thread, McMaster! I agree, in general , that schools kill creativity, YES! Very much so!
And at the same time there is always the human factor involved, thank GOD! That's why I think you make a very good point here, Rimbaud:

COLOR="blue"]Quote from Rimbaud: "Depends on the Teacher surely?" [/COLOR]
I believe there are great teachers out there, in the schoolsystem, truly coming from the heart and sparking the souls of children in their classes.

I am really passionate about the new way we are going to educate our children and us being educated by them
as I strongly believe in a positive outcome, a way out of present day madness. We are creating it every moment now, I believe.
I am passionate about kids and the paths they walk nowadays. I work as a day-Nanny and one of my strong talents is being creative,
also with kids, on all levels and situations in life.

These profound lines, the man in the video said: "Kids don't know.....that's why they have a go!" and also
"If you are not prepared to be wrong, you will never come up with something original" are so incredibly important to grasp.
In Holland, where I live, the schoolsystem is being viewed at as becoming poorer and more unworkable.
England is in a depression too regarding the schoolsystem. The head of the institute, a woman, has resigned her position
as she finds less then 50% of kids in school are having a proper education.
There is a lot of issues going on, the main thing school education is leading up to is increasing the economic profit and mental capacities.
The means to manifest economic profit is is in my not so humble opinion the degradation of the human spirit.

The form of mental and physical slavery that is used, and unconsciously accepted, by human beings...stepping in the threadmill of unchanging daily routines and mechanisms.
How dreadful this is and humiliating! And still we are allowing ourselves to be trapped, in this society system, that is displayd so well by Orwell's book 1984
(I am unsure about the year but that is entirely irrelevant here rather hilarious!

At the same time, I see lots of creativity flowering in young people outside of the school system. Crazyily beautiful handcraft made from recycled material,
old blankets, grandmother saved with campher balls, turned into clothes and bags.
The covers of vans, with all kinds of texts and advertisements, changed into bags, as Freitag makes them in Germany.
You have to pay quite a price for these as being original costs money, nowadays.
Going green and grow your own vegs is immersed in the old paradigm for the time being.

Here's the movie Zeitgeist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pgRUpDDrb0
Zeitgeist means "spirit of time"

This movie shows the madness we are in, the upside-down kind of reality we live in.
Schools don't teach how to make your life a work of art.
The Waldorf schools, based on Rudolf Steiner's visionary thoughts, are an exception as children learn to paint, play on stage, dance, sing and make individual choices in class.
The temperament of the schoolchildren is respected and disharmony is balanced as much as possible, to give them self esteem.

The heart is the best teacher, I think, and we humans are incredibly powerful if we enter the silent space in our heart.
Thanks for making my day, McMaster!

[Celine]

A conversation in the chatroom reminded me that this video would fit in perfect here..

An example of a "creative teacher"

Slam Poet Taylor Mali.. What teachers make..

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

[kaliestar]

School does indeed kill creativity, that's why I left it! Creativity was always fundamental to me and I saw that in school I wasn't really learning much, so.....

[morguana]

i think to say that schools kill creativity is a huge sweeping statement, some do and some dont.
my kids school is a lovely place, the kids are activly encouraged to express themselves in creative, autonomous and empowered manner.
it is a c of e school that works in a very steiner way, the parents are encouraged to take an active roll and partnership with the teachers and pupils,
the children work on projects and have feedom to express them selves via this method of teaching, they spend much time outside, growing their own fruit and veg,
taking care of the grounds, cooking, lots of games, art, drama, music, being active within our village community etc........
its all done with the enjoyment of the children in mind. learning though play and positive reienforcement is essential to the ethos of this particular school.
(i was going to home educate, but my daughter chose to go to school)

anyone read any books by john holt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holt_%28educator%29 exellent reads and i would highly recommend them to any parent who is
interested in the child learning process. particuly these......
# How Children Fail (1964; revised 1982)
# How Children Learn (1967; revised 1983)
love
m

[kaliestar]

Of course some do and some don't, but I can tell by my experience and by sooooo many other people I've seen, that in many cases schools really do kill our creative impulses.

[mike1414]

i love TED!...some really cool stuff on there...thank you for this thread...

the education of our children in general is in my opinion not what is should be....however this is so deeply rooted and effects absolutely everything i believe it will be shy on impossible to change the education system without a complete change in the way we view and interact in our world too...

our views on life and how we live together and our priorities..individually and global (is there a difference?)....our communication and the way we use languages....our history and knowledge of where we are going....the way we interact with the world...physically, emotionally and spiritually.....EVERYTHING is affected...

too many big wigs still holding positions of ''authority'' in ''governments'' having positions in nations where the ''best intentions'' of the people are at heart....in a nutshell....

however i truly believe that it is a case of teachers just not knowing any better.....obviously and understandably we know something is wrong...but to apply that to changing ones life and the way the world works is such a can of worms....as im sure we are all aware....it doesnt bare thinking about...especially with the ''stresses'' of everyday life...(it is a similar case reflected throughout society imo)....and to try to adapt that to teaching our children is a mega-huge puzzle...yet one that needs making and imo it will be made...for the better and for everyone involved...

times are changing... keep smiling

the thing that is and is going to be the big change in education is the CHILDREN....and this is the case at the moment and has been since i have been teaching anyway...

people in general are changing...the way we look at and interpret the world, the way we interact with the world....the focus on how they want to live and be part of something...
the child of today is very much different to the child say 20/30 yrs ago.... many people can speculate and read about these ''new children'' being born with their names and labels (i really cant stand this era of labels we still have!)...but it is not until one actually sees first hand how different these children are...there is a brightness and buzz about them that one can not simply ignore...it is a light that really can not be put out...and it is truly magical....
i come away daily form ''work'' having learnt more about life than going in there...and it is the parents of these children too who themselves are having a re-education and are changing the way they see the world and indeed their part in it...

so imho..education and its structure will change for the better one day...not too far away either....but it will come about bcos we are changing and our needs and focus is changing...

personally i enjoy dropping other information i believe they will find interesting in my school too and i know other teachers who do the same...with the most positive and loving intentions at heart....and many times the children will already know this info....
for example last yr i taught how the fibonacci sequence works which is part of our numbers and patterns (this is not new)...and later on that day i was told by this 10 yr old that she had seen that sequence or the 'fibonishi' sequence as she called it everywhere.... what do you men everywhere? i asked......out in the garden at lunch...its everywhere...i always see these patterns but didnt know they had a funny name...she said... - there are many more but this is just one of many beautiful and lovely little signs that shows to me that we as a people are changing...and for the better...

(dont worry people rant nearly over...)

i think the struggle in education today should be more focused on secondary schools....where the real ''conditioning'' kicks in....most people come away from primary school with fond memories...then to be traumatised when experiencing secondary or high school and from then on it is generally an uphill battle for many...

there are no coincidences

much love and peace to all
mike

[Rimbaud]

As a fairly non descript student..I maintain that it was the teachers character that either made me want to "learn" or not...To give you an example; when I was six I shoved my right arm through a window, severing my artery into my hand and severing the nerves on four of my fingers. I couldn't feel half my hand and still cant...One teacher used to punish me for bad handwriting..I mean a cane on my bum!...Another teacher spent hours on her own time exercising my wounded hand for weeks and weeks. I will forever adore Miss. Donn for spending that time on me...in the meantime I detest that old cow whose name I've forgotten, who should have been struck off.

We all remember those who were kind to us don't we?...The rest of them are hopefully dead!

Rimbaud

[Celine]

Posted by morguana (here)
i think to say that schools kill creativity is a huge sweeping statement, some do and some dont.
my kids school is a lovely place, the kids are activly encouraged to express themselves in creative, autonomous and empowered manner.
it is a c of e school that works in a very steiner way, the parents are encouraged to take an active roll and partnership with the teachers and pupils,
the children work on projects and have feedom to express them selves via this method of teaching, they spend much time outside, growing their own fruit and veg,
taking care of the grounds, cooking, lots of games, art, drama, music, being active within our village community etc........
its all done with the enjoyment of the children in mind. learning though play and positive reienforcement is essential to the ethos of this particular school.
(i was going to home educate, but my daughter chose to go to school)

anyone read any books by john holt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holt_%28educator%29 exellent reads and i would highly recommend them to any parent who is
interested in the child learning process. particuly these......
# How Children Fail (1964; revised 1982)
# How Children Learn (1967; revised 1983)
love
m

I spent years working with our local schools , morguana to try to reduce the 58% drop out rate ...

58?? can you believe that...

that is not the childrens fault..nor the teachers..imo..its the systems

i will take a look at the book, thanks for the suggestion

Ps: morguana...if you could pass on the Taylor Mali video to the teachers at your kids school... i would appreciate it. Teachers everwhere..and of all kinds deserve our appreciation

[sjkted]

No. Now go back to your seat, read the lesson, and keep your mouth shut!

--sjkted

[sepia]

Posted by McMaster (here)
Great video from TED. This guy talking has some good thoughts about this. And he also says that modern society strip mines our head the way we strip mine the planet, just to suit the needs of the industrys.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ke...reativity.html
(same Video, different Link. The other one didn't work for me)


Thank you so much for this great link McMaster!

Posted by Celine (here)
An example of a "creative teacher"

Slam Poet Taylor Mali.. What teachers make..

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

And thank you for yours Celine! Wonderfull! Brings tears in my eyes!

I have met many very good teachers, smart, loving, visionary people! Many of them quit! Many of them are burned out! Their own creativity got lost out of several reasons:

Their energy gets exploited from a system that seems to really fight them.

They have to spend more and more time for masses of Administration, for projects (creative work to improve the system) that ends up in some drawer...

I hope the turn-around is soon to come and the appreciation is waiting just around the corner, because at the moment we are loosing more and more teachers.
Those who stay often do this because they have no other option.
- That doesn't help to support the children's creativity!

The situation is certainly different in every country - but the suppressing intention comes from a higher level, not from all these good people involved!

[sepia]

Posted by Rimbaud (here)
I mean a cane on my bum!...

Oh Goodness!

Sounds like 19th Century! - So sorry to hear!

And this person was called a teacher and didn't realise that you were insured? Hmmm!

Pain stays pain - even when we have an other example beside, like this teacher who spent much time to support you!

My compassion is reaching out to you!