George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[Tesseract]

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
The verdict was "just" in that the prosecution could not prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) Zimmerman acted other than in self defence.

That doesn't mean he did act in self defence, just that the prosecution doesn't have the means to demonstrate to the contrary.

Scotland has a 'Not Proven' verdict as a third option. That could well have been the decision of the jury here, had they that option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven

[Seikou-Kishi]

Posted by Tesseract (here)

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
The verdict was "just" in that the prosecution could not prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) Zimmerman acted other than in self defence.

That doesn't mean he did act in self defence, just that the prosecution doesn't have the means to demonstrate to the contrary.

Scotland has a 'Not Proven' verdict as a third option. That could well have been the decision of the jury here, had they that option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven

I was going to mention that when I made the first post. The verdict originally meant not guilty, with not guilty referring to jury nullification in the face of a law considered unjust or inapplicable, it's only recently that it evolved into Innocence Light. The verdict of not proven has problems of its own.

[ThePythonicCow]

Stefan Molyneux, of FreedomainRadio.com, whose video on this case has been posted several times now, has released a follow-up video, answering some of the questions he received from his original video:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=NF0d12WtIRs

He speaks with a tart tongue. I happened to mostly agree with him on this case, and enjoyed listening to this follow-up video.

I cannot guarantee that those who disagreed with him or his conclusions will find it so much fun .

[TargeT]

Posted by Chinaski (here)
The dried blood in the pic adds a little too much drama for me. Take it away and what have you got? Not much. Just a couple marks that likely resulted from being tackled onto the concrete..

Posted by Chinaski (here)
If his head was being banged against the pavement, then regardless of its size or strength, Martin was clearly having his way with it. For the record, I don't really believe this happened. He may have fallen and hit his head and so on, but if his head was repeatedly banged against the pavement, regardless of "neck size" ...then the guy woulda been in much worse shape..

Chinaski... Ever been in a fight? I've had my nose and eye socket broken, do you have any idea the amount of damage that was done here? Do you know what goes through your mind when the container that holds your brain suffers that kind of damage?

Or are you just armchair quarterbacking (when you never even played the game once)

There were eyewitnesses that saw Martin doing an "MMA move" called "Ground & Pound" (aka taking the opponents head in your hands and banging it against the ground, concrete in this case)

This witness, who was observing from a mere ten yards away, couldn’t be any clearer: Trayvon Martin was straddling Zimmerman and beating on him “mixed martial arts style.” Zimmerman was yelling for help. Finally, Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot Martin. Unless there is some reason to doubt the credibility of this witness–and it is hard to see what reason there would be, since he is simply a neighbor under whose windows the fight broke out–it looks like a classic case of self-defense. This witness’s account also appears to confirm that the “stand your ground” defense does not apply. You can’t retreat when you are lying on the ground with an assailant beating on your head.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive...not-guilty.php


(these photo's are from when the police arived)




That kind of damage doesn't happen from cuddling....


Everyone supporting this Anti-zimmerman rhetoric has been emotionally manipulated and are blinded to the fact due to the emotional triggering. Quite frankly this is exactly the reason we are still divided, still conquered and probably won't come out of the situation we are in for a LONG time.

Until you people can OBJECTIVELY view information and SELF ANALYS enough to understand when you are emotionally triggered (for example, I am triggered right now) we will continue to be lead by our nose (Limbic system) to fight amongst ourselves while the controlling structure in place sits back and laughs.

Posted by Chinaski (here)

No, didn't watch the video. You're right. Guilty as charged.

If you have not reviewed the evidence given in this case, how can you POSSIBLY IMAGINE you are qualified to even offer an opinion, is that opinion EVEN YOURS? How did you come to that opinion if you have NOT even reviewed evidence that has been presented????

And the fact that you are flaunting your Apathy & ignorance in a sarcastic snarky manor is quite shocking.....

[Strat]

I'm generally avoiding this entire debacle of a debate. Everywhere on the net there's an opinion that's going to jump out at ya and frankly mine isn't strong enough to deal with that.

Posted by TargeT (here)
I've had my nose and eye socket broken

Left eye? It's usually the left eye. Sounds like you took a jab-hook. Ouch! (happens to the best of us)


Despite what I said about not getting in on this debate I do have a question if someone could answer it: When Zimmerman was being attacked did he ever 'see the stars' at any point?

[TargeT]

Posted by Strat (here)

Posted by TargeT (here)
I've had my nose and eye socket broken

Left eye? It's usually the left eye. Sounds like you took a jab-hook. Ouch! (happens to the best of us)

haha, yep, left eye. Not sure if it was from a fist or a knee though...

[Strat]

That's how it works! "What happened?"

Feels like a baseball bat hit you from nowhere. I've taken a knee to the chin before and my teeth now fit together like a jigsaw puzzle as a result. Wasn't a fight though that was in training so big difference.

The fighting thing in this Zimmerman case is a tricky issue indeed. Everyone reacts differently in a given scenario and you can't determine how you'd react unless you were there. Tough call, this dips into so many issues. I'm going to try and duck out of this one. Good luck Avalon...gonna need it

[Mike]

you don't sound like a very good fighter Target. I'd advise against it from here on out. You clearly haven't been reading my "snarky" posts: I could start a thread for all the fights I've been in.

Sarcasm? Well, guilty as charged. Sometimes its the only reasonable response in the face of such utter absurdity - like the absurdity in this thread, for example.

Apathy? Recall: I'm the one defending the kid (yup, *kid*) who was needlessly followed, antagonized, and later executed. You're supporting the killer.

And its not the legal endorsement that some of you have proclaimed here that bothers me - its the moral endorsement. If I were a member of the jury, I'd likely be forced to declare him 'not guilty' as well. Thats not the point. You see, the law doesn't allow for common sense. Its telling that the jury desperately wanted to find this man guilty of something; it was clear to them, as it is to me and others who are legally sane, that Zimmerman must accept some responsibility for his role in the murder - but alas, you can't prosecute a man for getting out of his car, can you?

And as I said earlier, "reasonable doubt" does not encourage "reasonableness". You can have loads of evidence to the contrary, but if a skilled lawyer plants a seed,.so-called reasonable doubt will prevail. It shocks me that some members here still equate the declaration of a verdict with "justice". In many instances like these (high profile) its nothing to do with justice - its who has more money and who has the better lawyer. Frankly, it embarrasses me to even feel the need to point that out. The so-called law is just another nightmarish, beaurocratic , highly corrupt and borderline insane institution, just like all the other ones we've exposed here on Avalon...and continue to expose. Its curious to me that we spend all this time here rubbishing these things, and now many of you are lining up to declare your allegiance. Curious indeed...

[sleepy]

xxxxx xxxxx

[Mike]

OK Paul, I've watched your videos...(and I'd like my hour back, please)

First, his power point circus is utterly meaningless. Even he kind of admits it, reiterating over n over that such and such does not.prove anything, but it might be interesting to know. And after feigning objectivity by spending 3 seconds on Zimmerman, he moves on to Martin, where he says maybe a few things of relevance, but generally just a bunch of rubbish. I was surprised that he didn't include Martin's tendency to not flush the toilet after a "number 2"...such was the ridiculousness of his list.

A muscular 158 pounds! Wow! Look out! 158 big ones eh? Whew, sounds like a handful!

Then he wastes alot of time talking about marijuana, dramatically exaggerating its effects, sounding very much like he's quoting a textbook.from the 1950's...only to later admit that only a very small amount was in Martins system when he was killed. So, even though ol baldy makes sure to slap the medias hand for propagandizing, he's doing a little himself here. At the end of one of his vids, even he seems embarrassed by this, and throws his hands up and says something to the effect that weed trips happen, and maybe this n maybe that. Weed trips. Ha! Clearly this guy never left the house as a teenager Sure, once in a blue moon an inexperienced user will have unpleasant effects. Yup, and sometimes people that are highly gifted genetically work real hard and run 25mph. Yeah, it happens, but....

He spends even more time on LEAN, and after hearing his comically out of touch stats on weed, this was hard to listen to in earnest. And the autopsy revealed no evidence of codeine or (oh hell, what's the other ingredient in LEAN?) in Martin's system during the autopsy...so again, a whole.lot of proselytizing for nothing.

He also makes a point of discerning between "stalking" and following...and needlessly tagging along etc...that really served no purpose other than to make yet another purposeless point.

And then there's the lecture on causality. Many people, like myself, claim that if Zimmerman hadn't needlessly followed Martin he'd still be alive. This Stefan clown goes on to say that if Martin hadn't been suspended from school, he wouldn't have been in Florida, he wouldnt have been murdered, and so on. And he was being serious! So I s'pose the next time someone gets shot, we shouldn't blame the shooter...nooooo, we'll blame the old lady that went out for milk, cuz that makes so much more sense, doesn't it??? And while we're at it, let's prosecute the bullet makers too! Causality folks!

And I've never once heard anyone call Martin a child. "Kid" yes...but never a "child". Its a subtle but meaningful distinction, but Stefan takes this nonsense and runs with it, chiding the media and those with similar sentiments that we should all be ashamed of ourselves. Nice try Stefan! More propaganda from you mate.

So after you get past all the useless nonsense, we basically have Lex Luther parroting the Zimmerman defense team, with lots of "Zimmerman said this and Zimmerman said that". Because, as he says, its "consistent with the evidence". What evidence? Ha! Zimmerman's busted up head and nose? Sh!t, we all know he got beat up - the question is why. Oh wait, yeah, I know why! Its because Martin just spontaneously decided to approach Zimmerman's truck for no good reason other than to smash him. Of course! Thats it! Musta been a hell of a "weed trip"! Ha!

What nonsense. Utter drivel.

[TargeT]

clearly you have made up your mind and nothing can be said that is different from your opinion.

I find this type of thinking usually very trapping.

Here's a fun game, count the logical fallacies in your last post (always a sure sign of an emotionally influenced/triggered message)

[Mike]

Posted by TargeT (here)
clearly you have made up your mind and nothing can be said that is different from your opinion.

I find this type of thinking usually very trapping.

Here's a fun game, count the logical fallacies in your last post (always a sure sign of an emotionally influenced/triggered

Sorry mate, I've got a better game to play at the moment. Its called taking my girlfriend out, having a few drinks and getting laid later.

Gotta go. But you have at it though!

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Chinaski (here)
What nonsense. Utter drivel.

Aha - finally something we agree on .

Can I have my 47 seconds back?

[Mike]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Chinaski (here)
What nonsense. Utter drivel.

Aha - finally something we agree on .

Can I have my 47 seconds back?

Touche brother

[crosby]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by corson (here)
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...,2292330.story

does that make everyone happy? is this enough, should we do more? what the helll. i am so angry at the total fecking ignorance of the bigger picture that i could scream. there's your black/white hatred... there it is .... not enough for one, too much for the other, you all make me sick.
CORSON

on this forum there is a thought of freedom, it resounds, it lives, stop the trauma from the past. i am so angry that i cannot see faith, healing, love, and compassion. please, if you cannot stop the expected discourse, close the thread. do not comply with the status quo. enough is enough. for black white green red purple pink yellow orange = color = rainbow = all.

The title to the LA Times article that corson linked is: "Trayvon Martin protesters block freeway, streets; LAPD moves in"

As announced in this post of mine, above, the thread What can we do to reduce the risk of riot from the Zimmerman-Martin case? was started, looking at at least some of the bigger picture.

But I have this feeling I am not understanding your concern very well, corson ... sorry. I invite you to restate it, if you think it's worth the effort.

All Apologies to this thread. My anger is based on personal issues, which at the moment that I wrote my response, I did not, or could not separate my anxiety from. To All members of this forum that I have offended, I offer my apology, and will from this moment forward, mind my own business. And no, Paul, I do not need to extend any thoughts further on the issue at hand. My sincerest apologies to all.
loving regards to Paul, (for interrupting his thread) and too all members who thought i had better stick to crocheting (which, by the way, i am very good at)!!
regards, corson

[NancyV]

Posted by TargeT (here)
clearly you have made up your mind and nothing can be said that is different from your opinion.

I find this type of thinking usually very trapping.

Here's a fun game, count the logical fallacies in your last post (always a sure sign of an emotionally influenced/triggered message)

Great list of fallacies! I think there were several of each type in the post, so at least 20 or more.

[Mark]

For those who paid absolutely no attention, the Martin/Zimmerman trial was a flash point. The emotions connected to the trial and the subsequent acquittal were based upon a historical reality in the United States, NOT just the trial. This is bigger than that. The suggestion that all these millions of people are emotionally biased is based upon a lack of full understanding of the context and the meta-narrative. To be able to "objectively" interpret the case as a stand-alone causative factor in everything that has occurred since and during, is paying absolutely no attention to reality. To call all of these people emotional and biased is to not pay attention to the lack of real Justice in the American justice system.

I was gratified to see only sporadic and relatively few expressions of violence against property or people in the wake of the verdict. It shows that people GET IT. And know it was an event designed to further dissension and work as an excuse to further solidify the control apparatus. The sleeping giant is awakening. The backlash is obvious and geared toward simultaneously marshaling majority white opinion against all those multiracial masses who recognized the simple injustice of a law designed to give vigilantes the upper hand. That the systemic loophole in this law was exposed in such a way has resulted in even many Republicans admitting that the law has to be reviewed.

Chinaski, Big Ups. You got a BIG heart, man, it's too strong to fail. Thanks for holding ground here by yourself. Many blessings.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=d87h9nAajqM

Even if you dislike Obama, for a greater understanding of the context, he lays it out specifically for people who don't get it.

Relegating comments and reactions to pure emotion and hysteria? That's dismissal of our world and supportive of the institutional system of white supremacy.

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Thanks Rahkyt for posting this, as I had not seen it. I have always felt that until humans stop identifying with their racial, tribal and religious cultures, we will be locked into the war mentality. That being said, it is a very complicated issue. Back in the 60's and forward, when so many young white couples couldn't conceive and there were few white babies to adopt, many turned to adopting black children. I kept hoping this would be the beginning of loosening racial prejudices - and it did help some. There are definitely more mixed marriages now, than ever before and certainly in many areas, especially cities it has become acceptable. On the other hand, suburbs tend to remain basically white, although slowly integrating. Unfortunately, it's way too slow in my opinion.

Unfortunately, IMO the racial issue is entwined with the poverty issue - and the minute one talks about financially helping the impoverished blacks who disproportionally fall into this category - ugly heads are raised. And as long as we have large portions of blacks kept in poverty, the cycle will continue.

This all comes back to the evolution of consciousness. Until we can see that we truly are one, until we can see that if one person is suffering we are all suffering, until we can see that labels - all labels - separate, the fight will go on. Hopefully Obama's speech will begin the discussion and discussion has the potential to open more eyes.

One thought I've had is: I would like to see all the blacks in the USA who have made it and made it big, such as sports figures, those in the entertainment field, etc., come together, pool some of the $$ they have made and set up programs across our nation. I know some of them are doing things individually at the local levels, but we need something bigger, something national to take on this problem. Now some might think I am being racial by suggesting that the blacks help their own, I'm not, I'm only being realistic. The white communities and organizations has a whole seem not yet capable of doing something 'only for the blacks'. They immediately get into what about the poor whites, and others, and then they don't do anything for any of them - or at least few. The discussion turns to entitlement programs for people who they believe can't be motivated.

[northstar]

An unarmed 17 year old teenager is walking home to his father's house after purchasing some junk food at a convenience store. He is followed by a creepy looking guy. Some stuff happens and the creepy guy (a man with a long and documented history of violence and sexual assault) shoots and kills the unarmed teenager.

Is the creepy stalker/killer investigated and charged with murder?
NOPE!
Why, why is the stalker/killer of the unarmed teenager allowed to walk free?
Well, very likely because of race issues, and criminal incompetence of the local police. After all, the killer is white looking (half white, half hispanic) and the dead unarmed teenager is black.

As a Canadian we spend most of our lives observing Americans. We grow up on American TV and American media products and we can perhaps "see" the ugly stain of racism a bit more easily than those who simply grew up immersed in it.

And man oh man, there is an ugly, ugly stench of racist sentiment running through the comments sections of articles on this case... (not only here but in many places on the web)

If you don't find the stalking and murdering of an unarmed teenager ugly and offensive, what happens next has the potential to truly turn the stomach of any human who possesses even a modicum of human empathy.

After the mother of the unarmed teenager complains that the murderer of her son was simply allowed to walk free, the case hits the media and mayhem breaks loose. Trayon Martin, the unarmed teenager murdered that night while walking home from a convenience store is turned into a monster by folks who apparently believe that stalking and shooting unarmed teenagers as they walk home at night is totally OK.

What is fascinating for me as a Canadian, and a person who has a long history of closely observing Americans is truly vicious post-mortem attack on the dead, unarmed teenager.

• Trayvon Martin is depicted as a murderous violent thug when in reality the only person in that deadly interaction with a documented history of violence was the killer Zimmerman.

• Trayvon Martin is depicted as having murderous intent toward Zimmerman when in reality the unarmed teenager Trayvon was walking home from the convenience store to his father's house when he was stalked and murdered by a man who was specifically told to stay away from the teenager and go back to his car.

Trayvon Martin was not a saint. Like most other teenagers he had issues but his only "crime" was being a young black male in America.

And yes, I write this post with full awareness of the wrath that is about to descend on me. But before that happens, I ask one thing.

Please read "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack" by Peggy McIntosh. It is a famous, short, easy to read essay that I believe should be required reading for all white folk who live in first world countries. I ask this with an open heart and an open spirit. Because if even one person who harbors racist sentiment due to ignorance reads this and their heart and mind is opened, that is a very good thing indeed. I am white and reading that essay years ago led me to examine my own conscious and unconscious racism and changed me for the better. I offer it here with a prayer that is might affect others the same way.

http://www.uakron.edu/dotAsset/1662103.pdf

[risveglio]

Posted by northstar (here)
(a man with a long and documented history of violence and sexual assault)

- First I heard of this? Any truth to this or was it a hypothetical.

My only take on this case was that there was a trial and a man was found innocent. I typically like the innocent decision because I would rather 10 guilty men going free than 1 innocent man go to jail. I think without the NBC "slip-up" this case would not have gotten the press it got and less people would have seen it as a race issue. I have been told I am pretty good at not seeing race so maybe that is why I can't see where the underlying issue resides.

From what I read, Zimmerman seemed to be the furthest thing from a racists and if Trevon was an Hispanic or Caucasian, the same exact thing could have happened.

Posted by northstar (here)
Please read "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack" by Peggy McIntosh.

Read. Follow up questions before I consider any responses. Have you ever read any books by Walter Williams or Thomas Sowell? Are you aware of the term Racialists?