Did Jesus Really exist?

[Vitalux]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
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The story of his life (and what he taught and stood for) was extensively changed and/or covered up by the early Church, who had an agenda of their own.

Bill based on this kind of adulteration of history, how does one extract truth from non-truths?

The problem that I see in orthodox religions, such as Christianity, is that spirituality gets so twisted, convoluted, divisive, and diabolical that it does more harm than good.

Most of us have experienced those folks who believe that Jesus is going to return, or that the only way you can get to heaven rather than Hell is through belief in Jesus.

There is a huge difference between Christianity and Spirituality, in my opinion.
I am spiritual.

[Kimberley]

Several years ago I read a book titled Laughing Jesus by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy and I interviewed the authors.

I found this review of that book...

The Laughing Jesus is a daring and thought-provoking book. Read it and nothing that you thought about the great monotheistic religions will ever look quite the same again.

Graham Hancock, author of Fingerprints of the Gods

They have done extensive research and claim that Jesus was not an historical figure.

They have written several books.

There is a lot of their material available on video this gets right to the point...29 minutes... Highly recommended.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=orPuzjxU9gE

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by marlowe (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
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I changed the title of the thread. If you study the Nag Hammadi scrolls, unearthed in 1945 and extensively researched since then, and also read The Jesus Papers by Michael Baigent, you will be left in no doubt that Jesus was a historical person.

The story of his life (and what he taught and stood for) was extensively changed and/or covered up by the early Church, who had an agenda of their own. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, it's the 'Jesus' as is now taught to kids in Sunday School who 'never existed'.

Rather than that manicured and invented character, another one actually did exist -- the real Jesus -- and it might be important for us to understand what he was saying and why it was so important that so many of his real words were meticulously excised from history.

Thank you Bill,.....I apologize for my strident attitude . I was so blown away by the research & the similarity
between the words in the Life of Caesar & the New Testament that I got carried away......

The general idea is that Jesus was a Gnostic & the New Testament leaves that out....Anyway,I do think the

the the first part of the video has important information.

Yes, I'm downloading it all now. That's how we all learn, and I'm happy to watch it. I'll do that tonight.

But a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The questions below are really important, and the research needed to answer them is deeper and more complex than can be summarized in just one YouTube video: -->

• Who was Jesus, really?
• What were his actual teachings?
• Why was he so controversial, and such a threat to the establishment?
• Why were so many historical documents of that time burned and banned? (Which they absolutely were.)
• What was and is the agenda of the Roman Church?
• Why did they erase so much from history, and grossly alter the rest?

[seeker/reader]

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[Billy]

Posted by billyji (here)
And Here. http://messenger2.cjcmp.org/issa.html

Nocolas Notovitch was a Russian aristocrat, journalist and explorer who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch said that he traveled to Ladakh in India, that he had stayed at the Himis (or Hemis) Buddhist Monastery in Leh, and that while he was there, he learned or ancient records of the life of Jesus of Nazareth and found a Tibetan translation of the legend. He said he then employed translators and copied the book or scroll known as "The Life of Saint Issa," and he renamed his translation, The Unknown Life of Christ.

Peace

Free Ebook http://manybooks.net/titles/notovichn2928829288-8.html The Original Text of Nicolas Notovitch's 1887

The Vatican tried very hard to prevent Notovitch publishing his book. They attempted to bribe him. But he refused. He published his book only to disappear shortly afterwards. Never to be seen again.

Peace

[scanner]

I believe there was such a person , but not the way he is portrayed to us . I also believe he wasn't human imho of course .

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by marlowe (here)
Thank you Bill,.....I apologize for my strident attitude . I was so blown away by the research & the similarity
between the words in the Life of Caesar & the New Testament that I got carried away......

The general idea is that Jesus was a Gnostic & the New Testament leaves that out....Anyway,I do think the

the the first part of the video has important information.

Yes, the entire video has important information, that the Bible as delivered to us by the Catholic church has apparently "borrowed" the story of the life of Julius Caesar to provide major elements of the story of Jesus.

But apparently someone (yourself, perhaps?) seemingly didn't really view what was actually being evidenced in that video, and mislabeled this thread with an assertion, boldly phrased, that Jesus did not exist. The video makes no attempt to evaluate whether or not there was an actual person named Jesus of most extraordinary capabilities, in the near east, at that time.

With the emphasis of the original thread title and opening post however, the entire thread devolved immediately into a question of whether or not Jesus really did exist, which was not the point of the opening video. Another moderator, Bill himself, eventually renamed the thread from the deliberately provocative assertion ">>> Fact : Jesus Never Existed<<<'" to the more neutral "Did Jesus Really exist?", but the damage had long been done.

Had this thread been properly (in my view) entitled "The Biblical story of Jesus Christ is partly that of Julius Caesar" from the beginning, it might have taken a much different direction and successfully discussed the important information in that opening video.

Yes, Marlowe, book covers do matter, and providing accurate thread titles is important.

When we combine

1. the content of the opening video of this thread, which provides a persuasive explanation for the real origins of the story we are told in the Bible about supposedly Jesus, with
2. what we are learning about the real Jesus and
3. how the Roman Empire usurped early Christianity to found the Roman Catholic church, ...

we begin to see what is likely a more complete and accurate picture of the history of Western political and religious power over the last couple of millenia.

It's unfortunate, in my view, that the real contents of the opening video was lost in a polarized discussion over the existence of Jesus.

[seeker/reader]

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[Fred Steeves]

Personally I don't think it really matters whether a guy named Yeshua ever roamed the Earth or not. What I would hope we all can agree on is that there is a "Christ Consciousness" so to speak, and that state is attainable by all.

No matter the origin of say, "seek and you will find", it's darn good advice regardless of where it came from.

[Maunagarjana]

There are some interesting similarities. But to say the biography and iconography of Jesus Christ was completely based on Julius Caesar is a rather shallow conclusion to draw, I think. It is much more likely to me that the funeral and account of his death (and all that) of Julius Caesar was intentionally meant to reference mythical motifs of the dying and resurrecting godman of the ancient Mystery religions.

It's pretty clear to me that the representation we see in the Gospels - the supposed biography - is a composite of many different sources. Some of them mythical figures, some of them actual persons with myths attached to them, myths that also intentionally meant to reference previously existing myths. I suggest you read "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy for a good explanation of many of the motifs. And there are no shortage of them. Their conclusion is that early Christianity had it's beginnings as a Jewish Mystery religion and that Jesus was a mythical figure that was later historicized.

However, to me, the composite nature of the biography of Jesus and whether or not there was an actual historical Jesus are two different issues. To be able to really say it's a "fact" that no such person existed in some form, you'd need a time machine. And you'd have to be confident that you knew the time period he lived in. Just because it's traditionally believed that he lived in the early 1st Century does not make it so. What if he did exist, but lived before Julius Caesar was born? What then? I once read a book by Alvar Ellegard called "Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ" where he argues that Jesus was the "Teacher of Righteousness" mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I feel the issue of the historicity of Jesus is a very complex and multilayered thing and there really is no easy answer, I'm afraid. And I won't even go into all the paranormal claims people make, from psychics, to remote viewers, to past life regressions, to channeled sources, to visionary experiences that do affirm that he did exist (and does exist as a spiritual entity). There are many such claims, and they often starkly disagree when it comes to the details. I have my own opinions on the subject that are very far from the mainstream views of either scholarship or religious traditions.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
But to say the biography and iconography of Jesus Christ was completely based on Julius Caesar is a rather shallow conclusion to draw, I think

Well, I'd have to agree on that .

However I don't recall anyone saying that.

[skippy]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
Personally I don't think it really matters whether a guy named Yeshua ever roamed the Earth or not. What I would hope we all can agree on is that there is a "Christ Consciousness" so to speak, and that state is attainable by all.

No matter the origin of say, "seek and you will find", it's darn good advice regardless of where it came from.

I join you Fred that it basically doesn't matter whether Jesus existed or not. We are dealing here with a spirituality from the highest and purest sort, imho.

[Maunagarjana]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
But to say the biography and iconography of Jesus Christ was completely based on Julius Caesar is a rather shallow conclusion to draw, I think

Well, I'd have to agree on that .

However I don't recall anyone saying that.

What do you mean? That's what the guy in the video is saying.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by billyji (here)

Posted by billyji (here)
And Here. http://messenger2.cjcmp.org/issa.html

Nocolas Notovitch was a Russian aristocrat, journalist and explorer who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch said that he traveled to Ladakh in India, that he had stayed at the Himis (or Hemis) Buddhist Monastery in Leh, and that while he was there, he learned or ancient records of the life of Jesus of Nazareth and found a Tibetan translation of the legend. He said he then employed translators and copied the book or scroll known as "The Life of Saint Issa," and he renamed his translation, The Unknown Life of Christ.

Peace

Free Ebook http://manybooks.net/titles/notovichn2928829288-8.html The Original Text of Nicolas Notovitch's 1887

The Vatican tried very hard to prevent Notovitch publishing his book. They attempted to bribe him. But he refused. He published his book only to disappear shortly afterwards. Never to be seen again.

Peace

Thank you for this! I will devour this book. It all rings true. I'm currently deeply researching this subject (which is why this thread is of quite some personal interest to me), and this book is exactly what I needed and wanted.

I've visited Hemis monastery in Ladakh myself -- a quite wonderful, magical place -- and also seen the claimed tomb of Youza Asouph/'Yuz Asaf' [Jesus?] in Srinagar.

[seeker/reader]

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[conk]

The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold, Acharya S.


Controversial and explosive, The Christ Conspiracy marshals an enormous amount of startling evidence that the religion of Christianity and Jesus Christ were created by members of various secret societies, mystery schools and religions in order to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion! This powerful book maintains that these groups drew upon a multitude of myths and rituals that already existed long before the Christian era and reworked them into the story the Christian religion presents today-known to most Westerners as the Bible.

Author Acharya makes the case that there was no actual person named Jesus, but that several characters were rolled into one mythic being inspired by the deities Mithras, Heracles/Hercules, Dionysus and many others of the Roman Empire. She demonstrates that the story of Jesus, as portrayed in the Gospels, is nearly identical in detail to those of the earlier savior-gods Krishna and Horus, and concludes that Jesus was certainly neither original nor unique, nor was he the divine revelation. Rather, he represents the very ancient body of knowledge derived from celestial observation and natural forces. A book that will initiate heated debate and inner struggle, it is intelligently written and referenced. The only book of its kind, it is destined for controversy.

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I've only just bought this book, but it may be quite interesting. Conk.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
What do you mean? That's what the guy in the video is saying.

A dominate or primary basis is not the same as a complete basis. But I should not detour this thread further off topic - sorry.

[skippy]

Posted by seeker/reader (here)
Why does one need an intermediary? Why can't you directly connect with the God?

Yes good question. Here the answer from the horse's mouth (Luke 10:25-37): ..

"One day, a lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, with all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself." Jesus said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."

Then the lawyer, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbour?" Jesus answered with the following parable: "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?"

He said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

[Maunagarjana]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
What do you mean? That's what the guy in the video is saying.

A dominate or primary basis is not the same as a complete basis. But I should not detour this thread further off topic - sorry.

Granted. I wrote my comment before I read your earlier comment clarifying this point.

Oh, and I just want to say (since people are cutting and pasting Acharya S's claims), I've read a lot of scholarship on this subject, and I have to say I have absolutely no respect for the scholarship skills of Acharya S, many of whose claims are picked up by and echoed in Zeitgeist. In many cases, I've gone back to the source materials to verify his claims, and they are complete distortions or misunderstandings or just real stretches.

[1inMany]

I am just wondering...if all the people/characters mentioned by seeker/reader, including Jesus, could possibly be one entity, or one soul group, reincarnating repeatedly...

I know this sounds crazy, but is it possible?