Did Jesus Really exist?

[Bill Ryan]

-------

I watched the video with interest last night. My conclusions (which have not changed):

• There was certainly a historical Jesus.

• He was both a [non-violent] revolutionary, rather like Gandhi, and an inspirational spiritual leader who really did have, or really was, something very special.

• The parts of his story that later became enshrined in Salvationism (the best term for the metaphysics of the Roman Church) -- the virgin birth, the resurrection, some of the miracle stories, etc -- were all versions of then-current mythology that were woven into his story (which, before it was written by anyone, were recounted by word of mouth).

• To that degree, it's entirely possible that some of the well-documented Caesar stories were adopted and copied-and-pasted onto that of Jesus. But for me personally, this is not the Jesus story at all and is merely a distraction. It was the world's first major (and effective) disinfo campaign. (Remember: disinfo = part truth, part fiction).

• None of that means that Jesus did not exist. It's just further confirmation of the distractions.

• The stories of what he really was, taught, and stood for have all been expunged from history. Books -- some of them scholarly historical accounts (like the Gospel of Thomas, which meticulously lists his recorded words ) -- were really ordered to be banned and burned as heresy. Many books mentioned in earlier texts have not yet surfaced at all and we can only guess at their contents. We still wouldn't know about much of this at all if it hadn't been for the chance discovery of the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945.

• The really important question here is WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?

Here are my provocative (to some) suggestions as a series of answers to the last question. Some of what I list below is quite well-known, and some of it comes from my own personal research, still ongoing.

• The Essenes, with whom Jesus studied, knew all about the Book of Enoch, which was a centrally important reference document for them. It was widely known about and read at that time. This too had completely disappeared from history until it was rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1773 (and an original Aramaic version was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls more recently).

• The Book of Enoch, a huge topic in itself, warns of the takeover of the planet by the Archons -- non-human, off-planet entities that crave power and control. It was the Archons, of course (then in human form, because they take over people in positions of power) who banned and burned all the books and identified Jesus and his teachings as a particular threat. In that sense, Jesus may have been the world's first major whistleblower, and paid the price for his stance.

• Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).

• Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

• Hence all the Gnostic teachings (which were also at that time very old, and not something new at all). But the Gnostic teachings were also a major threat to those in power, and had to be eradicated. The reason was because these teachings supported individuals in becoming more powerful, sovereign and inviolate. Even now, we are fighting exactly the same battles.

• Mary Magdalene ('Mariamne Mara' -- in Greek, 'Mary the Master') was Jesus' main supporter and advocate, and was also his wife. She was charged with the responsibility of making sure the real story was known.

• Jesus survived the crucifixion, and he and Mary both fled to Egypt until 37 AD when Jesus later returned to Kashmir and Mary sailed to Narbonne with her child or children, where she was taken care of in a Jewish community based in Rennes-les-Bains (just a few miles from Rennes-le-Chateau, where in 1890 the local priest Bérenger Saunière discovered incontrovertible proof that (among much else) Jesus was still alive in 45 AD, and was paid a large sum by the Vatican to keep this information secret).

• Mary lived in that community until something like 54-55 AD, but made a critically important error of judgment in trusting someone she should not have, was betrayed, and vitally important documents that she was safeguarding were stolen. This incident was one of several major turning points of history.

• Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

• What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.

• The 'Second Coming' may refer to nothing more than the emergence, approximately 2000 years later, of the truth of what happened and what all this was really about. So now, we have:
  
  -- the authority and agenda of the controlling Roman Church being seriously challenged at long last
  -- the very detailed and extraordinary Gnostic Gospels unearthed at Nag Hammadi in 1945
  -- the entire original Book of Enoch unearthed in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the same year
  -- the exposé (through important books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The Jesus Papers, the works of Sir Laurence Gardner, and much else) of the reality of Jesus and Mary's surviving bloodline
  -- David Icke, Jay Weidner and John Lash talking openly to millions about the reality of the takeover by the Archons
  -- millions of people worldwide realizing, and acting on the fact, that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent of any external controlling agency.

• It took a while, and much longer than planned, but we've managed to get to a place now which the real Jesus, and the real Mary, might both have approved of. They might both breathe an enormous shared sigh of relief that after 2000 years of real darkness there may be hope for the human race at last.

• Summary: we're still in with a chance.

[ulli]

I just watched the video as well.
To me it confirms my belief in the infinite nature of the microcosm, and the mystery of time.
We all, each and everyone of us, can create a myth, a meme, a scenario, and I have no doubt that the Roman elite and their scribes had a population control agenda. Meme making is rampant today, too.

How far these memes then grow depends on the number of people buying into the original myth or meme. Not only their number but also their collective emotions, which form an energy field, or critical mass.

However, like Bill, I also believe that the historical figure of Jesus Christ did exist, ...
it had to have existed to even show the meme makers the materials, without which they could never have come up with their scenario.

But the real Jesus' mission was never population control, but was aimed at the individual,
to take each soul deeper into the discoveries of the highest realities of their being.
And this had to do with the personal preparation of their consciousness
to be able make the transition to the higher realms and still have the I AM awareness intact,
when leaving their bodies behind to return to dust.

The formation of like-minded groups is something that does not have to be manipulated from a hierarchic leadership model, as it is an organic process. Once everyone has spiritual knowledge their ability to serve the whole becomes enhanced, as they realize that they themselves are better off when the whole community functions in a loving spirit around them.

I consider his contribution valuable in that it will help people to question the motives of their religious leaders,
but fear that he is basically preaching to the choir in the alternative community.

[araucaria]

Thank you Bill. I think that summary is pretty much where we are at. I wonder what will have to happen to trigger a release of some of the hard evidence. I'm sure the Vatican library has copies of much of the lost material, and at what stage the Priory of Sion, Knights Templar and other white hats whoever they are will feel at liberty to come out of the woodwork.

What intrigued me again with this video was the nuanced conclusion. He says something to the effect that the whole business of quelling heresy and establishing an authoritarian church was maybe the only way the Jesus story could be made to survive at all even in this garbled fashion. It is interesting to think that a two-tiered system may have been necessary from the outset, rather in the way Asimov's Second Foundation has to rely on the imperial front of the First. In other words, the Church was part of the plan, and a necessary part until a certain stage was reached. In that case, what is no longer needed should just fall away.

[Delight]

Posted by ulli (here)
However, like Bill, I also believe that the historical figure of Jesus Christ did exist, ...
it had to have existed to even show the meme makers the materials, without which they could never have come up with their scenario.

But the real Jesus' mission was ...... aimed at the individual,
to take each soul deeper into the discoveries of the highest realities of their being.
And this had to do with the personal preparation of their consciousness
to be able make the transition to the higher realms and still have the I AM awareness intact,
when leaving their bodies behind to return to dust.

I watched the video.
I agree with Ulli. There had to be a truth to distort.

I want to add this Art Bell interview that I heard when it was on the radio. It introduced me to Glenn Kimball and I recall it because it was the first time I ever heard anything about Jesus story that didn't sound like myth.

My first book was entitled "Hidden Stories of the Childhood of Jesus", which was strictly the historical accounts of the childhood of the most famous man who ever lived. This is the greatest non-fiction book for Christmas ever. At the time I always wondered why more people didn't know about the rest of the life of Jesus. I had studied the early life of Jesus after meeting two priests in South America who were in a sort of exile from the Vatican Security Force. They would tell me of manuscripts and histories that lay buried in the seventeen miles of vaults beneath the Vatican around a poker table. The book is the real Christmas Story beginning with the great grandfather of Jesus and ending with the death of Jesus' father Joseph when Jesus was about fourteen years old.

The "Hidden Story of the Childhood of Jesus" comes directly from the records written by Jesus' two brothers. They were included in the body of documents called the "Only Rule of Our Faith", which was the original Bible before the Bible. The first half of the book is a historical explanation of the ancient texts and the second half of the book contains the actual story of the family of Jesus translated from the ancient manuscripts themselves. The book is deliberately very small. At the time I felt one of the reasons more people didn't know about the histories of Jesus' life was because they were buried in huge ponderous anthologies and unintelligible scholarly texts. The scholarly historians, who have verified the ancient manuscripts, have largely been atheists and therefore not credible to believers. The Believers have shut the doors to Extra-Biblical documents and therefore haven't looked for additional history for themselves. This book is purely historical, and though I am a believer, it allows "the cards to fall where they may". http://www.lightstreamers.com/kimball.htm

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vue7aY5-urs

[araucaria]

There is a neat symmetry in getting people to believe in a larger than life mythical figure, and when this ploy ceases to operate, to get them to disbelieve in the existence of the person previously caricatured. This is a logical and for us understandable thing to do in our presentday terms if, as Bill suggests, the real-life figure was a spiritually enlightened conspiracy whistleblower.

If so, Jesus was not so much a leader to be venerated as someone in the mould of what would be today a well-established contributor to a forum, or a forum founder; he would certainly deserve more than a chat over a coffee: say a place on the Camelot/Avalon page of illustrious predecessors. This is a double-edged sword: he actually becomes important in proportion to the importance given down the centuries to the mythical figure, and as a newly discovered “white hat”, he becomes a major headache to be dealt with.

That is why this question is also an important one.

[ulli]

Posted by Delight (here)

Posted by ulli (here)
However, like Bill, I also believe that the historical figure of Jesus Christ did exist, ...
it had to have existed to even show the meme makers the materials, without which they could never have come up with their scenario.

But the real Jesus' mission was ...... aimed at the individual,
to take each soul deeper into the discoveries of the highest realities of their being.
And this had to do with the personal preparation of their consciousness
to be able make the transition to the higher realms and still have the I AM awareness intact,
when leaving their bodies behind to return to dust.

I watched the video.
I agree with Ulli. There had to be a truth to distort.

I want to add this Art Bell interview that I heard when it was on the radio. It introduced me to Glenn Kimball and I recall it because it was the first time I ever heard anything about Jesus story that didn't sound like myth.

My first book was entitled "Hidden Stories of the Childhood of Jesus", which was strictly the historical accounts of the childhood of the most famous man who ever lived. This is the greatest non-fiction book for Christmas ever. At the time I always wondered why more people didn't know about the rest of the life of Jesus. I had studied the early life of Jesus after meeting two priests in South America who were in a sort of exile from the Vatican Security Force. They would tell me of manuscripts and histories that lay buried in the seventeen miles of vaults beneath the Vatican around a poker table. The book is the real Christmas Story beginning with the great grandfather of Jesus and ending with the death of Jesus' father Joseph when Jesus was about fourteen years old.

The "Hidden Story of the Childhood of Jesus" comes directly from the records written by Jesus' two brothers. They were included in the body of documents called the "Only Rule of Our Faith", which was the original Bible before the Bible. The first half of the book is a historical explanation of the ancient texts and the second half of the book contains the actual story of the family of Jesus translated from the ancient manuscripts themselves. The book is deliberately very small. At the time I felt one of the reasons more people didn't know about the histories of Jesus' life was because they were buried in huge ponderous anthologies and unintelligible scholarly texts. The scholarly historians, who have verified the ancient manuscripts, have largely been atheists and therefore not credible to believers. The Believers have shut the doors to Extra-Biblical documents and therefore haven't looked for additional history for themselves. This book is purely historical, and though I am a believer, it allows "the cards to fall where they may". http://www.lightstreamers.com/kimball.htm

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vue7aY5-urs

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

[panopticon]

G'day All,

Here's the doco by Atwill:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0aSKN0xnfsA

Book available here.

Interesting take on the Flavian/Josephus hypothesis.

Price critiques the Atwill book here.

I've stated a number of times that I believe there was probably a historical character on which the mythological Jesus was based (though I doubt there were any similarities between the two as represented in accepted scripture).

Personally I view the creation of the gospels was linked to the Jewish Revolt (66-73 CE) and that they developed organically as a means of explaining the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus/Vespasian in 70 CE. The Second Temple was the centre of religious ceremony and its destruction must have been a terribly traumatic event for those effected (not to mention the loss of life and the horrors of starvation for the rebels in Jerusalem under the 70 CE Roman Siege).

Interestingly the final separation between the Jews and Gentile Christians didn't really occur until after the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–136 CE). This was followed by a period of consolidation in the early Church.

The creation of the first collection of texts (canon) by Marcion of Sinope in 144 CE and the development of a Christianity (Marcionism ended ~4th Century CE) based mostly on the teachings of Paul (while rejecting the Jewish God of the Old Testament) shows the marked diversity of accepted dogma in the period.

Marcion's canon was rejected by the main stream early Church possibly because the new Church needed the older roots provided by Judaism (through the Old Testament) as a way of competing with other already established religions as well as newly emerging ones (in particular the very influential Mithras cult). The now familiar canon present in the Bible took a few Centuries to solidify but most of the elements were there by around 200 CE and the last of the accepted texts was definitely written by 150 CE (though many scholars reckon they were finished by 100 CE).

It's an interesting web to look at and place into historical and cultural context.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Sites for those interested:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/
How have beliefs changed since the early church?
Marcion: Portrait of a Heretic
Types of Christianity in History: Who Were the First Christians?
The Flavius Josephus Home Page
René Salm’s: The Nazareth Myth
Interesting article by DM Murdock on Josephus' 'Testimonium Flavianum'
Of course there's also The Gnostic Society Library which has translations of many of the old gnostic texts (yes even the Nag Hammadi Library)

Lastly here's a link to Dr Bob Price's page:
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/

[araucaria]

Posted by ulli (here)

Posted by Delight (here)

Posted by ulli (here)
However, like Bill, I also believe that the historical figure of Jesus Christ did exist, ...
it had to have existed to even show the meme makers the materials, without which they could never have come up with their scenario.

But the real Jesus' mission was ...... aimed at the individual,
to take each soul deeper into the discoveries of the highest realities of their being.
And this had to do with the personal preparation of their consciousness
to be able make the transition to the higher realms and still have the I AM awareness intact,
when leaving their bodies behind to return to dust.

I watched the video.
I agree with Ulli. There had to be a truth to distort.

I want to add this Art Bell interview that I heard when it was on the radio. It introduced me to Glenn Kimball and I recall it because it was the first time I ever heard anything about Jesus story that didn't sound like myth.

My first book was entitled "Hidden Stories of the Childhood of Jesus", which was strictly the historical accounts of the childhood of the most famous man who ever lived. This is the greatest non-fiction book for Christmas ever. At the time I always wondered why more people didn't know about the rest of the life of Jesus. I had studied the early life of Jesus after meeting two priests in South America who were in a sort of exile from the Vatican Security Force. They would tell me of manuscripts and histories that lay buried in the seventeen miles of vaults beneath the Vatican around a poker table. The book is the real Christmas Story beginning with the great grandfather of Jesus and ending with the death of Jesus' father Joseph when Jesus was about fourteen years old.

The "Hidden Story of the Childhood of Jesus" comes directly from the records written by Jesus' two brothers. They were included in the body of documents called the "Only Rule of Our Faith", which was the original Bible before the Bible. The first half of the book is a historical explanation of the ancient texts and the second half of the book contains the actual story of the family of Jesus translated from the ancient manuscripts themselves. The book is deliberately very small. At the time I felt one of the reasons more people didn't know about the histories of Jesus' life was because they were buried in huge ponderous anthologies and unintelligible scholarly texts. The scholarly historians, who have verified the ancient manuscripts, have largely been atheists and therefore not credible to believers. The Believers have shut the doors to Extra-Biblical documents and therefore haven't looked for additional history for themselves. This book is purely historical, and though I am a believer, it allows "the cards to fall where they may". http://www.lightstreamers.com/kimball.htm

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vue7aY5-urs

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

Well I don't know Ulli. I was distinctly underwhelmed. This guy mentions a ridiculous number of documents - half a million or something. That is not only too many to read, it is too many to count, and he quotes none of them. More than once he says I'll give a personal reaction then a historical one. You get the personal reaction but not the historical one, as if it makes much sense anyway to have two. Not very convincing in my view

Then I came upon this.
http://www.robertghostwolf.com/kimball.htm

[ulli]

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by ulli (here)

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

Well I don't know Ulli. I was distinctly underwhelmed. This guy mentions a ridiculous number of documents - half a million or something. That is not only too many to read, it is too many to count, and he quotes none of them. More than once he says I'll give a personal reaction then a historical one. You get the personal reaction but not the historical one, as if it makes much sense anyway to have two. Not very convincing in my view

Then I came upon this.
http://www.robertghostwolf.com/kimball.htm

Sigh...you know I have this tendency to get sucked in when I'm listening.
Reading does not trigger my gullibility like the spoken word...

Maybe that's why I have stayed far from immersion type teachings.
Discernment and good judgment are my saving grace, when I apply it.

I never heard the end of that interview anyway, so I might have been assuming that he was going to come up with some goodies later on.

Here is my real take...while Christian teachings were implanted in me in my childhood,
and much of it has served me well, my real spirituality comes from personal experience,
my way of life as an eternal seeker...
not from some 'scholar's' 25-year study.
Thank you for yanking my chain...
anyway, I have enough Gurdjieff and Baha'i books to keep me going for the next 300 years..
and really don't need a million more Christian pages to plough through.

[Delight]

Posted by ulli (here)

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by ulli (here)

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

Well I don't know Ulli. I was distinctly underwhelmed. This guy mentions a ridiculous number of documents - half a million or something. That is not only too many to read, it is too many to count, and he quotes none of them. More than once he says I'll give a personal reaction then a historical one. You get the personal reaction but not the historical one, as if it makes much sense anyway to have two. Not very convincing in my view

Then I came upon this.
http://www.robertghostwolf.com/kimball.htm

Sigh...you know I have this tendency to get sucked in when I'm listening.
Reading does not trigger my gullibility like the spoken word...

Maybe that's why I have stayed far from immersion type teachings.
Discernment and good judgment are my saving grace, when I apply it.

I never heard the end of that interview anyway, so I might have been assuming that he was going to come up with some goodies later on.

Here is my real take...while Christian teachings were implanted in me in my childhood,
and much of it has served me well, my real spirituality comes from personal experience,
my way of life as an eternal seeker...
not from some 'scholar's' 25-year study.
Thank you for yanking my chain...
anyway, I have enough Gurdjieff and Baha'i books to keep me going for the next 300 years..
and really don't need a million more Christian pages to plough through.

Thanks for the information about Glenn Kimball. I don't know who to believe as discrediting seems the way to gain credibility too. Anyway, Kimball died in 2010 from liver disease at only 60. If he really was taking on such distortion it could not have agreed with him. Deception is bad for the "liv-er".

I like what you have to say Ulli. As a total aside, I just started reading Kathryn Hulme's book Undiscovered Country about her time spent with Gurdjieff.

[ulli]

Posted by Delight (here)

Posted by ulli (here)

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by ulli (here)

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

Well I don't know Ulli. I was distinctly underwhelmed. This guy mentions a ridiculous number of documents - half a million or something. That is not only too many to read, it is too many to count, and he quotes none of them. More than once he says I'll give a personal reaction then a historical one. You get the personal reaction but not the historical one, as if it makes much sense anyway to have two. Not very convincing in my view

Then I came upon this.
http://www.robertghostwolf.com/kimball.htm

Sigh...you know I have this tendency to get sucked in when I'm listening.
Reading does not trigger my gullibility like the spoken word...

Maybe that's why I have stayed far from immersion type teachings.
Discernment and good judgment are my saving grace, when I apply it.

I never heard the end of that interview anyway, so I might have been assuming that he was going to come up with some goodies later on.

Here is my real take...while Christian teachings were implanted in me in my childhood,
and much of it has served me well, my real spirituality comes from personal experience,
my way of life as an eternal seeker...
not from some 'scholar's' 25-year study.
Thank you for yanking my chain...
anyway, I have enough Gurdjieff and Baha'i books to keep me going for the next 300 years..
and really don't need a million more Christian pages to plough through.

Thanks for the information about Glenn Kimball. I don't know who to believe as discrediting seems the way to gain credibility too. Anyway, Kimball died in 2010 from liver disease at only 60. If he really was taking on such distortion it could not have agreed with him. Deception is bad for the "liv-er".

I like what you have to say Ulli. As a total aside, I just started reading Kathryn Hulme's book Undiscovered Country about her time spent with Gurdjieff.

You are right about discrediting others, especially when people go out of their way to do so. And Kimball seems harmless enough...there are worse culprits out there.
What we have here is healthy group dynamics...araucaria is my friend and he was looking after my back when he googled some extra info on Kimball.
After all, we have a job to do here...dragging and shoving one another towards higher knowledge...
By the way, those written accounts by former Gurdjieff students make for delicious reading.
I will look up Cathryn Hulme...never heard of her. Good title, too.

[Delight]

Posted by ulli (here)
You are right about discrediting others, especially when people go out of their way to do so. And Kimball seems harmless enough...there are worse culprits out there.
What we have here is healthy group dynamics...araucaria is my friend and he was looking after my back when he googled some extra info on Kimball.
After all, we have a job to do here...dragging and shoving one another towards higher knowledge...
By the way, those written accounts by former Gurdjieff students make for delicious reading.
I will look up Cathryn Hulme...never heard of her. Good title, too.

I totally agree and that is my aim...higher knowledge. The story that Glenn Kimball did include info that others have referenced. If it is not true, I have no way of knowing. Here is one tidbit about the genealogy and how it may relate to other history linking Great Britain, Joseph of Arimethea and Christ.

http://www.4thefamily.us/files/glaston.htm

Anyway, other than just being interesting, I don't think it matters to me if Jesus was historic because bottom line, it matters more who we are than who was .

And story wize...Kathryn Hulme wrote the Nun's Story. She was part of a group in Paris that included other very literate women...thye called themselves the Rope. They were mostly Americans andhad to leave Paris when WWII started. They are also part of the group that surrounded Gertrude Stein. The relationship the women shared with Gurdjieff and the whole scene in Paris at that time is fascinating.

[ulli]

Posted by Delight (here)

Posted by ulli (here)
You are right about discrediting others, especially when people go out of their way to do so. And Kimball seems harmless enough...there are worse culprits out there.
What we have here is healthy group dynamics...araucaria is my friend and he was looking after my back when he googled some extra info on Kimball.
After all, we have a job to do here...dragging and shoving one another towards higher knowledge...
By the way, those written accounts by former Gurdjieff students make for delicious reading.
I will look up Cathryn Hulme...never heard of her. Good title, too.

I totally agree and that is my aim...higher knowledge. The story that Glenn Kimball did include info that others have referenced. If it is not true, I have no way of knowing. Here is one tidbit about the genealogy and how it may relate to other history linking Great Britain, Joseph of Arimethea and Christ.

http://www.4thefamily.us/files/glaston.htm

Anyway, other than just being interesting, I don't think it matters to me if Jesus was historic because bottom line, it matters more who we are than who was .

And story wize...Kathryn Hulme wrote the Nun's Story. She was part of a group in Paris that included other very literate women...thye called themselves the Rope. They were mostly Americans andhad to leave Paris when WWII started. They are also part of the group that surrounded Gertrude Stein. The relationship the women shared with Gurdjieff and the whole scene in Paris at that time is fascinating.

I have a feeling I'm meant to read that Glastonbury document...
even though I agree with you that what's going on with us now
is more important than the details of antiquity.

But sometimes there are meanings in old events there were never properly assimilated...
Like I spent Easter of 1974 in Glastonbury, where a friend of mine had married a Druid called Rollo...
And Rollo told me all about the Jesus-Glastonbury connection, but it went in one ear and out of the other at the time.

This stuff is useful to me now as I'm meeting people here in Costa Rica
who want to break with the Catholic Church for whatever reason,
but are scared of what their grandmother might say...
Yet they really ought to move on with their search.
So in cases like these it is good to share credible information
about the life of Jesus that they never heard about during mass.

[araucaria]

Posted by Delight (here)
Thanks for the information about Glenn Kimball. I don't know who to believe as discrediting seems the way to gain credibility too. Anyway, Kimball died in 2010 from liver disease at only 60. If he really was taking on such distortion it could not have agreed with him. Deception is bad for the "liv-er".

I like what you have to say Ulli. As a total aside, I just started reading Kathryn Hulme's book Undiscovered Country about her time spent with Gurdjieff.

Liver disease at 60 killing the messenger: odd, I'm just recovering from that and then... As for the message, it may be harmless, it may even be correct, but it will probably muddy the waters if it's not. I was actually going to buy his books till Amazon decided not to ship them and I looked at a few reviews. For now I have other material I want to share (maybe on the other thread now), so I think I'll just leave it at that.

[1 flew over]

To start; Bill thanks for the thread, good discussion.
I have been studying with a biblical theologian and one of the things that she mentioned that had a fairly profound effect on me was that the definitions of words have changed over time. Duh, well yea. A specific point of that is the word mercy. In my youth I had always been taught that the meaning of “God have mercy on me” was sort of like; a old kind of angry guy with a white beard sitting on a cloud that can see and know everything that I do, looking down on this poor downtrodden sinner and hoping that he wouldn’t strike me down for being so lowly and undeserving. Needless to say, I threw out the baby with the bathwater and quit the whole thing. There are enough repressive things to content with without having that one sitting on me too. What my friend brought to my attention was that mercy in its origin was from the same root as commerce or merchant and it actually means, may I have an exchange with you or I wish to be a part of your knowledge. for me this was a fairly significant shift in intention or meaning. This was just one point that I thought might be worth mentioning. She had mentioned that according to the original Aramaic, ancient Hebrew, Coptic and early Greek versions of the Canon there is a wide meaning, intention and direction that has ended up being distributed in the current Bibles. The above mercy concept was just one.
Be Well
1 Flew Over

[good point]

When I hear

"God have mercy on me"

it's sort of like: 'God pass me the basket full of money', which in fact, mercy is like money.

Posted by marlowe (here)
any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...

When I think of logical, realistic facts. I think of the mercy that wasn't given by Jesus when he told his disciples to bear arms. Money was rebelled against, openly and aggressively, by Jesus. The aristocracy, those of status wouldn't hear the confession of Jesus. Jesus is Christ. Jesus, the Son of Man. Jesus, the God. Jesus' being crucified wasn't an apologist. It was the disciples that acted as apostles. Caesar was an emperor family. They have resembling names. Rome and Vatican City were both corrupted. Jesus was smeared by the money changers in the temple.

[marlowe]

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=vKCKylOyfN0

There are 2 parts to the mystery of the real Jesus.....Ralph Ellis discovered who the real historical Jesus was....

The second part is understanding that the Jesus of the New Testament is fiction...
Joseph Atwill has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the New Testament is fiction..
The problem is it will take you 33 minutes to understand that fact..here is the 33 minute video...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4UqG8w7ezUQ

¤=[Post Update]=¤

One more thing...The first Christians were Gnostics....Wouldn't it follow that the historical Jesus was also a Gnostic..?

[good point]

The first Christians were followers of Christ. The first Christians were disciples. The disciples became apostles by acting with the churches of Europe and Asia minor. Jesus, from the time he was baptized up to his crucifixion, was among criminals that were enemies of Roman culture. Roman culture did not simply shun its broken members. It made examples of them. Criminal records, political records (records of law), and tax records are centralized parts of the bureaucracy of kingdom and empire alike. Your denial of Jesus' existence is double-think. "A propaganda 1, 2," as the man in the video said, once more about some of the first Christians were in Adessa (spell c.) across the Euphrates river. The video is concerned with "The True History of the Jews", which of course, as a religion of Abraham, monotheistic, will deny Jesus because they don't accept Jesus nor would a Christian accept Muhammad. The Jews won't accept that a mortal Jew, Jesus, was Christ so the Jews cut a deal with Romans to murder Jesus. However, calling it justice is like calling the trial and death of Socrates justice. It was democracy of the loudest. A common murder was set free when asked whom would be believed over one that calls himself, the Son of Man, guilty of might makes right, guilty of innocence and guilty of thought crime against the soothsayers and money changers and those ignorant of their ignorance, whom claim to know what they really do not know. If Christians weren't dangerous, Rome wouldn't have executed Christ to begin with. He would have been exiled. If his followers, the Christians, weren't dangerous, they wouldn't have been executed as Jews were by the Third Reich, by the Roman Empire.

[Popol Vuh]

I often go back and fourth on this topic can never come to a conclusive conclusion,One thing i wonder about is if Christianity is secretly based on the zodiac which it obviously is did jesus intend this or was is added later,and if jesus attended the Mystery Schools of Egypt with Moses,Did they meet Akhenaten was that around the same time of Jesus?

[Prodigal Son]

Posted by Popol Vuh (here)
I often go back and fourth on this topic can never come to a conclusive conclusion,One thing i wonder about is if Christianity is secretly based on the zodiac which it obviously is did jesus intend this or was is added later,and if jesus attended the Mystery Schools of Egypt with Moses,Did they meet Akhenaten was that around the same time of Jesus?

"Moses" was most likely the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep III of the 18th Dynasty, born in 1364 BC....

http://suite101.com/article/moses-re...al-myth-a61554

I would guess that if Jesus had many incarnations, then his closest one to that time would have been as Joseph son of Jacob (if any of those Bible characters were indeed real.... for example, "Abraham" has his anagram equivalent in the Hindu religion as "Brahma").