Did Jesus Really exist?

[marlowe]

Allow me to stray off topic and give you some examples of where the David Icke forum has gone....
It's like a tabloid newspaper....

current thread examples ..I'm not making this up...

[1] The anti jew crowd are losers.

[2] Jimmy Savile outed as paedo....<<<{ this thread has over 9 MILLION views}

[3] Miley Cyrus performance on the VMA awards...{ 7 thousands views }

[araucaria]

Posted by ulli (here)

Posted by marlowe (here)

Posted by araucaria (here)
Marlowe, interestingly the anonymous keyboard warriors you prefer to believe, screen names roman piso and luciferhorus, have both got themselves banned! Not to read to much into that, but they are somehow out of line with their own chosen forum.

@ araucaria,

The David Icke forum is a joke and has been for a couple of years now....
The DIF is run by one [ & one only] anti-Semitic pro Christian moderator ..He allows posters to use the word Jew
and Zionist as if there were no difference between the two...He started a purge of some of the most intelligent posters which caused an exodus of many of the old timers . That being said those banned members are unrelated to the main evidence presented by Joseph Atwell & Ralph Ellis.........
I joined Project Avalon when I realized how sick and corrupt the DI forum had become....

And of course you're not going to read the links I posted by LucerferHorace et all because that is info you don't want to know about.....So you frantically search for a reason to ignore it....and guess what...You found it....

Well, araucaria?
If this isn't a valid challenge to investigate something new,
then I don't know what is.

Not just now Ulli thankyou. I don't think marlowe has responded to my post #117 yet. And meanwhile I fail to see how getting banned from a forum makes you more credible because that forum is a joke. Two wrongs don't make a right: what were they doing there in the first place? And also, I did take a look at the threads: for starters, roman piso mostly reiterates Atwell, so I still need an answer to that.

[marlowe]

@ arau,

I'm not about to get into an argument about Christianity with a Christian...

I'm posting links for people like myself who's brains are not frozen in an ideology

that preaches "love your enemy, turn the other cheek, & if you're good when you die you will go heaven and spend eternity worshiping "God"....etc." which is the perfect conditioning tool for TPTB as they try to move into a one world government...

BTW There is no evidence for heaven but thousands of documented cases for reincarnation....

[ulli]

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by ulli (here)

Posted by marlowe (here)

Posted by araucaria (here)
Marlowe, interestingly the anonymous keyboard warriors you prefer to believe, screen names roman piso and luciferhorus, have both got themselves banned! Not to read to much into that, but they are somehow out of line with their own chosen forum.

@ araucaria,

The David Icke forum is a joke and has been for a couple of years now....
The DIF is run by one [ & one only] anti-Semitic pro Christian moderator ..He allows posters to use the word Jew
and Zionist as if there were no difference between the two...He started a purge of some of the most intelligent posters which caused an exodus of many of the old timers . That being said those banned members are unrelated to the main evidence presented by Joseph Atwell & Ralph Ellis.........
I joined Project Avalon when I realized how sick and corrupt the DI forum had become....

And of course you're not going to read the links I posted by LucerferHorace et all because that is info you don't want to know about.....So you frantically search for a reason to ignore it....and guess what...You found it....

Well, araucaria?
If this isn't a valid challenge to investigate something new,
then I don't know what is.

Not just now Ulli thankyou. I don't think marlowe has responded to my post #117 yet. And meanwhile I fail to see how getting banned from a forum makes you more credible because that forum is a joke. Two wrongs don't make a right: what were they doing there in the first place? And also, I did take a look at the threads: for starters, roman piso mostly reiterates Atwell, so I still need an answer to that.

Well, it appears to me that you are taking your investigation quite serious,
and making sure you have the background covered.

Personally, I always looked for the shortcuts...relied on my intuition,
dropped most of the books halfway through, and finally came to a conclusion
that those ancient texts no longer matter, at least not to me.
Not saying they should not matter to others.

I have a strong foundation in Christian teachings, but if someone asked me today what my religion was I would answer Baha'i, as that is my truth. All major world religions came from the highest levels (dare I say God?) and Christianity was just one of many. But Christ himself said, he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. His teachings left many issues unanswered, and so became endlessly splintered, and cause conflict, except in the minds of the mystics who got it.
So there can be no doubt that he was not the Prince of Peace who was promised by Jesaiah. Which is why Jews had such a hard time accepting Him. Lots of prophecy remained unfulfilled.

Anyway, all religions have the same essential message...which is called the Golden Rule, and that message is not one that would play into the court of the PTB,
but common sense, and justice, so a society could thrive. It is an equation, it can be reversed, and not change it's meaning. Love thyself as thy neighbor.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Love thine enemies...who knows...could that part have been added? He was speaking to Jews who were going by the book- the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.

But say he did say to turn the other cheek.
This would definitely allow psychopaths to gain absolute control, and given enough time, even global control. So good Christians ended up giving their lives, making the ultimate sacrifice for their belief in the teachings of love, and the hereafter which would then reward them. (Between us...very Piscean, coinciding with the Piscean Age.)
So now humanity has arrived at that point, maybe even this very year...psychos are running the show.
Or maybe not...I'm confused, honestly. As a woman I would not want to live in a Muslim world. Nor a fundamentalist Christian world. Nor a fundamentalist Zionist nor Bahai world, for that matter. I like secular government, and I like local government based on tribal traditions of elders, but with term limits.

[araucaria]

Posted by marlowe (here)
@ arau,

I'm not about to get into an argument about Christianity with a Christian...

No you're not, because that is not what I am.

My 'brains are frozen in an ideology'. Another compliment: I must have turned the other cheek.

btw, did you read my rebuttal of Joe Atwill? Never mind.

[araucaria]

Posted by ulli (here)
Well, it appears to me that you are taking your investigation quite serious,
and making sure you have the background covered.

Personally, I always looked for the shortcuts...relied on my intuition,
dropped most of the books halfway through, and finally came to a conclusion
that those ancient texts no longer matter, at least not to me.
Not saying they should not matter to others.

I have a strong foundation in Christian teachings, but if someone asked me today what my religion was I would answer Baha'i, as that is my truth. All major world religions came from the highest levels (dare I say God?) and Christianity was just one of many. But Christ himself said, he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. His teachings left many issues unanswered, and so became endlessly splintered, and cause conflict, except in the minds of the mystics who got it.
So there can be no doubt that he was not the Prince of Peace who was promised by Jesaiah. Which is why Jews had such a hard time accepting Him. Lots of prophecy remained unfulfilled.

Anyway, all religions have the same essential message...which is called the Golden Rule, and that message is not one that would play into the court of the PTB,
but common sense, and justice, so a society could thrive. It is an equation, it can be reversed, and not change it's meaning. Love thyself as thy neighbor.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Love thine enemies...who knows...could that part have been added? He was speaking to Jews who were going by the book- the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.

But say he did say to turn the other cheek.
This would definitely allow psychopaths to gain absolute control, and given enough time, even global control. So good Christians ended up giving their lives, making the ultimate sacrifice for their belief in the teachings of love, and the hereafter which would then reward them. (Between us...very Piscean, coinciding with the Piscean Age.)
So now humanity has arrived at that point, maybe even this very year...psychos are running the show.
Or maybe not...I'm confused, honestly. As a woman I would not want to live in a Muslim world. Nor a fundamentalist Christian world. Nor a fundamentalist Zionist nor Bahai world, for that matter. I like secular government, and I like local government based on tribal traditions of elders, but with term limits.

Ulli, you are quoting the gospels, which may or may not be contaminated by Josephus and co. I am not a Christian because I have no time for the gospel version of Jesus.

What I take from Jesus boils down to one word: love. If you accept that message 100%, then 'love your enemy' is a part of the package. If you love someone, they cannot be your enemy. I am not thinking of Oscar Wilde's method "Always forgive your enemies- nothing annoys them so much".I am thinking of the following. If you want a concrete example, check out Bill's thread about the toxic Joe.

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by jiminii (here)

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by EmEx (here)

Posted by araucaria (here)
Sort out your side of the equation, and their problem is automatically resolved.

Why would their problem be resolved?



What I was trying to say is we create all the time and when something 'bad' happens to us it's good to check how we caused it,
we admit that it was us all along when we see the answer which empowers us to change it.
I have done this several times with things and i can usually find the thought that brought the experience into life.
Ask the question and wait for the answer with an empty mind.

I am speaking empirically: I have seen it happen. I don't have to know why. But let me hazard a guess. The external issue the other person had was the joint manifestation of a problem they had with themselves and of a problem they had with you, and which turn out to be the same problem.

This kind of interconnection is a typical example of how doing the inner work has a healing effect on the outside world.

this is true. We found people came to get auditing had a kind of war going on with their neighbor across the street who had a similar business.

when they contacted the problem that got them fighting each other it vanished the problem on both sides.

they man across the street calls him up and says he doesn't want to fight anymore.

jim

The mechanics of this are readily understood by analogy with an excel file. You link cells together by a calculation function, e.g. Sum. When you change one of the numbers to be added up, the total is updated automatically. If you just look at a printout, you won't see the invisible link, but it's there. An individual/cell is a function of other individuals/cells.

[irmensul13]

Thanks Marlowe,I saw the ad for this book in Nexus but I'd forgotten to get it..this is really interesting cheers man
Jesus was a king in Edessa,pictured on a coin ,wearing one of those tall hats

[S-L]

Posted by marlowe (here)
because I believe any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...

I think we can look at this from two perspectives. Was there a historical Jesus? I personally believe there was, but I suppose that's something that scholars can argue over. They'll probably be arguing about this for the next 10,000 years. We can certainly have a nice debate about this... we can quote our favorite scholars and really have it out.

However, we can also look at this from another perspective. What kind of impact did Jesus have on the world? Even if you take the view that there was no historical Jesus, I'm sure you can agree that this potential non-historical personage had a massive impact on the course of human development. While scholars can debate whether or not there was a historical Jesus, no one can debate that Christianity massively changed the course of history. In this greater and more meaningful sense, Jesus was very real. I believe that looking at it from this perspective is a lot more interesting. Whether he actually existed is academic. His impact affects us to this day, so in this sense he's very real.

[marlowe]

Posted by S-L (here)

Posted by marlowe (here)
because I believe any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...

I think we can look at this from two perspectives. Was there a historical Jesus? I personally believe there was, but I suppose that's something that scholars can argue over. They'll probably be arguing about this for the next 10,000 years. We can certainly have a nice debate about this... we can quote our favorite scholars and really have it out.

However, we can also look at this from another perspective. What kind of impact did Jesus have on the world? Even if you take the view that there was no historical Jesus, I'm sure you can agree that this potential non-historical personage had a massive impact on the course of human development. While scholars can debate whether or not there was a historical Jesus, no one can debate that Christianity massively changed the course of history. In this greater and more meaningful sense, Jesus was very real. I believe that looking at it from this perspective is a lot more interesting. Whether he actually existed is academic. His impact affects us to this day, so in this sense he's very real.

@ S-L,
If you look at the debate subjectively then it can be argued until hell freezes over......or until the end of time,

However if you study the evidence objectively on the fine grained level there is solid evidence that the real Jesus was the King of Edessa,had a brother named James,a wife named Martha,wore a helmet of thorn like
projections,was a Gnostic warrior who led the revolt against Rome & was captured in 70 AD.
In the New Testament Jesus said "I do not come to bring peace ,but a SWORD"....
Does that quote sound like the pacifist Jesus who gave himself over to the Romans to be crucified ?

There is no way a hard core Christian can evaluate this evidence OBJECTIVELY..IMHO
********************************************************************
AS to your belief that Christianity was a good thing you are on firmer ground...imo...

However the original Christians were Gnostics & imo the Catholic Church was the greatest force of evil on the planet ...However the Protestant reformation came out of & rebelled against the R C Church and opened the door to scientific discoveries & medical progress,etc....

Let us compare Spain ,Portugal & Italy who are still nominally Catholic to the UK,Germany,France & Scandinavia. The Catholic countries are backward & poverty stricken compared to the Protestant countries

& the same goes for South & Central America compared to the USA and Canada......if you see what I'm saying....>>>>>>

[dianna]

On the question of the reality of Jesus I favour the "myth" idea (comparative mythology) --- there is no mention on this thread of the work of Alvin Boyd Kuhn ("Shadow of the Third Century" is a good start) Tom Harpur ("Pagan Christ" and his more recent "Born Again") and John Lash ("Not in His Image") --- three fascinating reads for anyone who is interested --- each of these researchers have some interesting insight on the idea of Jesus

[x_factor]

There is really only one relevant question here: 'did jesus exist?'

And there is only one way of answering the question: by examining the writings of historians who documented the period in which jesus supposedly lived.

None of the historians who were alive at the time during which jesus supposedly lived had anything to say about an individual names jesus or about anyone who performed miracles during that historical period. There is no historical reference to anyone who turned water into wine, healed the sick, walked on water, etc.

The new testament has absolutely no historical corroboration anywhere in the historical record.

Jesus is a sun god: an anthropomorphization of the sun (the 'risen savior', 'that which is most high' 'the light of the world' and so on).

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Vitalux (here)
Think about it, what are the odds of finding a girl named Mary in Iraq about 2000 years ago?

Not Iraq!

In the Israel of that time, about 25% of women were called Mary (as we would translate it). The actual names were Maryam or Mariam (in Aramaic), or Mariamne in Greek.

One of the many problems facing New Testament historians is that there are altogether too many 'Mary's mentioned in different contexts. There's ample evidence that the writers (or translators) got them mixed up with each other on quite a few occasions.

This is one of the issues around unpicking who Mary Magdalene really was -- an important historical (and spiritual) question.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

So feel free to point out who those scholars are.

It's one thing to say that you believe someone existed. It's another to provide the actual historical and archeological evidence to back it up.

[QUOTE=S-L;730901]

Posted by marlowe (here)
Was there a historical Jesus? I personally believe there was, but I suppose that's something that scholars can argue over... we can quote our favorite scholars and really have it out.

[x_factor]

That is quite a detailed biography! What historical documents lead you to believe this?

Posted by 1 flew over (here)

Do I think there was a person named Yeshua that existed right around 2000+ years ago? That traveled with women as equals to men, who did not follow many of the rules of the Hebrews or the occupying Romans, that reached enlightenment and lost the duality that so pervades western thought. Who used his love for a woman to help build and feel higher levels of emotion and thought. That stated that he was a son of God as ye are also sons of God, also stated that you are capable of reaching greater heights than he was able to. That when speaking through his one mindedness his followers who were probably illiterate had no clue as to what he was saying. (The apostles Thomas, Mary M and Judas probably better than most) Who was a practicing shaman and using his connection to a higher energy source could help others to become healed. Who primarily spoke about loving others and living peacefully together? Yes I am beginning to.

[x_factor]

Where are the historical records backing your claims?

Posted by marlowe (here)

However if you study the evidence objectively on the fine grained level there is solid evidence that the real Jesus was the King of Edessa,had a brother named James,a wife named Martha,wore a helmet of thorn like projections,was a Gnostic warrior who led the revolt against Rome & was captured in 70 AD.
In the New Testament Jesus said "I do not come to bring peace ,but a SWORD"....
Does that quote sound like the pacifist Jesus who gave himself over to the Romans to be crucified ?

[marlowe]

Posted by x_factor (here)
Where are the historical records backing your claims?

Posted by marlowe (here)

However if you study the evidence objectively on the fine grained level there is solid evidence that the real Jesus was the King of Edessa,had a brother named James,a wife named Martha,wore a helmet of thorn like projections,was a Gnostic warrior who led the revolt against Rome & was captured in 70 AD.
In the New Testament Jesus said "I do not come to bring peace ,but a SWORD"....
Does that quote sound like the pacifist Jesus who gave himself over to the Romans to be crucified ?

The historical evidence is in a book by Ralph Ellis called Jesus KING Of Edessa
.Available at Amazon....I have also read KING JESUS by Ralph Ellis.....

[ralfellis]

Posted by marlowe (here)
The historical evidence is in a book by Ralph Ellis called Jesus KING Of Edessa
.Available at Amazon....I have also read KING JESUS by Ralph Ellis.....

If we take this thread back to its origins, it was asking if the proposal that Jesus was a king of Edessa had any merit. The answer is yes, because nobody has yet been able to remotely undermine this thesis. We had a couple of Mormons try to do so, but only by making up blatant falsehoods, which tells you more about Mormonism than it does the Edessa theory.

So yes, Jesus was a prince of Edessa, because he has the same name, motivation, dress and life history - including being crucified while wearing a crown of thorns, and being taken down early by Josephus and surviving. And yes, this is all real history as far as we know it. The crucifixion story comes from Josephus Flavius' Life.


This is another couple of interviews, which introduces some of the topics. Please listen beyond the adverts-intros and the slow first few minutes. This is not about UFOs and Bigfoots, honest: ;-)

History of Jesus etc:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dn_uCMA0o3c

History of Judaean astrology:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UvAturzmwOA

[ralfellis]

Posted by marlowe (here)
.Available at Amazon....I have also read KING JESUS by Ralph Ellis.....

Here is the royal Edessan Crown of Thorns, as King Izas-Jesus of Edessa would have worn when he was crucified:

[lightning23]

Secret life of Jesus Christ

[Finefeather]

Posted by lightning23 (here)
Secret life of Jesus Christ

The literal translation of 'white' as if the person is a light skinned person is just incorrect IMO.
You should think of white as white light...which is opposite to dark light...
Light and dark are the esoteric terms used when conveying the idea of 'a bringer of light' as apposed to a 'bringer of darkness' ... a bringer of esoteric truth and wisdom...as apposed to a bringer of dark evil indoctrination.

This is merely the 'good guy', 'evil guy' we see all over the bible...and the person the bible calls Jesus was certainly not the only traveler bringing truths to the multitude.
The bible is largely a poor interpretation of esoteric knowledge which is written in such a way to instill fear in those who do not worship God and his Son, who'm Jesus is supposed to represent.

We should know by now that God is only the power we see in a higher being...which is so much greater than we are capable of now...that we doubt if we could ever be like the God(Wise Being) we now worship...one day in the future we will all be Gods to those who will come after us...then you will realize how your 'God' wished you did not treat him with such awe...because even your 'God' is far from knowing it all yet.

If you look at life and take note of your loyal dog, you should notice the similarity of this in real life...where the dog literally 'worships' the owner because his life depends on him for food and shelter and safety

Take care
Ray

[lightning23]

John’s Vision of Christ

Revelation
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Salam