The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign

[norman]

[1 flew over]

Posted by Becky (here)
I agree. I think he was a spiritual man with a message to spread, but he wasn't as portrayed in the bible, and neither was Mary Magdelaine.

Becky

It looks to me that the controlling patriarchy of the time did whatever they could to denigrate the power and ability of women to anything other than bearing and raising children. No acknowledgement that Mary Magdalene was an apostle and powerful carrier of the faith after he died.

Be Well
1 Flew Over

[araucaria]

Applying presentday methods of dealing with trouble-makers, we can see that the man Jesus came in for widespread mainstream coverage full of disinfo. After that, it becomes easy to defuse any potential resurgence by using a form of plausible deniability we have seen even on this forum: 'this has been debunked', they say, referring not to the original message but to the more readily available distorted version. No, it has not been debunked.

[Delight]

I don't think that this has been placed ?
It connects the Essenes, the traditional Judaic tradition and hints at a crucifixion of a messiah before Jesus.

http://www.johnallegro.org/john-m-al...-1984/1984/04/

John M Allegro – The Dead Sea Scrolls: A Cover-up? April 18, 1984.
Produced and broadcast by Ian Walker of Piccadilly Radio, Manchester, England.

Why, after 30 years, was John Allegro the only scholar to have published all the scroll texts allotted to him? Why were the others so reluctant to discuss differences of interpretation, or welcome the light that the scrolls shed on the origins of Christianity?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=XRixkHH56_A

None of the four scholars interviewed (Allegro, Yadin, Benoit and Broshi) accepts the popular conspiracy theory about a deliberate cover-up. But Allegro holds that, though not amounting to suppression, he definitely experienced a go-slow, a reluctance to challenge or even debate accepted views on the uniqueness of the gospel story.

[Milneman]

Posted by Paula (here)

Posted by gripreaper (here)
The best, most encoded, emotional and gut wrenching story of Yeshua and Magdalene was written by Claire Heartsong called "Anna, Grandmother of Jesus" for those who were alive and present during the time Yeshua and Magdalene walked the planet, (which I was) this will resonate with you.

That's all for now.

"Anna, Grandmother of Jesus" touched me deeply. I attribute the full body vibrations (subtle, not outwardly seen) I've been feeling in part because of this book. I didn't mention the book because "Anna, Grandmother of Jesus" is received (channeled) by Clair Heartsong.

My burning questions were answered on how was a virgin birth possible? And how did people live for thousands of years? For me, this book is not about religion. It’s about how we are coming to know of our own awakening potentials.

Take a look at what St. Augustine says about time. I promised I wasn't going to post any replies about this subject until I read through the entire thread but...I was pushed. :D Virgin birth is well....another story.

[Milneman]

Posted by Nat_Lee (here)
I would really like to meet this guy (Jesus) one day !

Be careful what you wish for. ;o)

[Milneman]

Posted by CD7 (here)

Call me crazy but I think what we have in the NT is a rather accurate representation of who Jesus was. These accounts were written in a time when witness followers of Jesus were still alive, and the Jews and Hellinists of that period already had a system of verbatim memorization to commit many of the teachings and events to a stable oral tradition (and no, this is nothing like a game of telephone.)

What does NT stand for?

And sorry but humans beings communication skills are severely flawed ...you can bet your bottom dollar years and years and years of oral tradition would hardly result in anything authentic....
unless some other means of communication were developed that resembled NOTHING of what we do in the realm of communication today...so im curious how would this type of tradition that your referring to not resemble a telephone tag game?

Well, for one thing, the Torah as it is today can be an example of a type of tradition that doesn't resemble a telephone tag game. When modern examples are compared to the dead sea scrolls....there is an almost identical match.

Just because something is improbable doesn't mean it's impossible.

ps: I really like your picture. :D

[Milneman]

"What is truth?" -Pontius Pilot

From "The Republic, Book VII" by Plato. If you're not familiar with the Allegory of the cave, find it in its entirety here: http://classicalastrologer.files.wor...f-the-cave.pdf

SOCRATES: Now if once again, along with those who had remained shackled there, the freed person
had to engage in the business of asserting and maintaining opinions about the shadows -- while his eyes are
still weak and before they have readjusted, an adjustment that would require quite a bit of time -- would he
not then be exposed to ridicule down there? And would they not let him know that he had gone up but only
in order to come back down into the cave with his eyes ruined -- and thus it certainly does not pay to go up.

And the final outcome:

SOCRATES: And if they can get hold of this person who takes it in hand to free them from their
chains and to lead them up, and if they could kill him, will they not actually kill him?
GLAUCON: They certainly will.

I spent the better part of 45 minutes trying to compose a reply to this thread, unable to clearly articulate from what I read, what I understand from my own reading. I find it frustrating that I know I'm supposed to say something here about this, and am held back by my own...inability.

The other quote I'm drawn to here is from St. Augustine, from his book "The Confessions"

"Already I had learned from thee that because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true; nor because it is uttered with stammering lips should it be supposed false. Nor, again, is it necessarily true because rudely uttered, nor untrue because the language is brilliant. Wisdom and folly both are like meats that are wholesome and unwholesome, and courtly or simple words are like town-made or rustic vessels — both kinds of food may be served in either kind of dish."

And I keep coming back to my own turmoil, my own struggle for understanding of my experiences, both normal and abnormal, both sane and insane, my struggle with grief, finding truth, finding faith, realizing and understanding the difference between what an onion is and what the layer in an onion is, and I keep coming back to this: My heart is restless until it rests in Thee. I have more. I'll take another crack at it after I think about it some more. It feels like something profound I have to push out (yeah it feels like threading oatmeal through the eye of a needle again guys...)

Be patient with me....please.

[Nat_Lee]

Posted by Milneman (here)

Posted by Nat_Lee (here)
I would really like to meet this guy (Jesus) one day !

Be careful what you wish for. ;o)

I wish it ! :D

[Milneman]

Bill,

I want to start by saying that I believe we agree on a lot of issues. Granted, I'm at a disadvantage here because you really have no idea who I am, what my motivation is, or where I'm coming from. I respect deeply the work you have done, and as I've stated before, were it not for a lot of what you did through Camelot I would not have been able to get to my understanding today. I believe truth can be ascertained through dialogue, and although there may be disagreements, or tossles, friends when talking about important issues will not let this get in the way of the respect they have for each other. In that aspect, what I present here is meant with the deepest respect.

To begin with, I think it's probably a good idea to tell you where I'm coming from before I begin. I've posted my abduction experiences over in the contactees thread, but that doesn't really give you an idea about who I am. I'm 42 years old, I work full time as a supervisor for a janitorial company. I've been with the company for 15 years, I value what I do although sometimes I find it frustrating that the biggest difficulty I seem to encounter is not being able to find people who want to work, but are willing to collect the pay cheque. I enjoy philosophy immensely. Philosophy in part is what brought me to a better understanding of my abduction experiences, and helped to put it into perspective, and indeed shape my world view.

I am a Christian. It's important I think to state that outright. The question then becomes what kind of Christian am I? This I think is an underlying theme in the post: in all of Christendom, where is Jesus? For the sake of my discussion here, the best kind of description I can offer is the Christianity described by C. S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity". I believe that the mainstream sects of Christianity have shadows, slivers of truth but they are corrupted by human beings. That sounds so simple, and yet it is such a complex issue. One I think is at the heart of the matter of determining the authentic Christ.

You ask, "... WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?"

I'd like to offer an alternative hypothesis for your consideration. Namely, this information was never erased from history, but rather is not seen as being in the New Testament because it doesn't suit contemporary Christians and Non-Christians to see it (even though it actually is there to see).

The question has arisen in this thread about the historicity of the New Testament. Namely, that at the time of the compilation of the cannon something occurred which corrupted the scriptures in some way rendering them either inaccurate or somehow tainted. I will agree that in the case of historical accuracy, it is difficult to achieve any kind of objectivity. In fact, it is impossible. It is up to the individual to come to conclusions based upon their faith in their sources. But to outright claim the New Testament has no historical basis and cannot be considered a reliable resource is a bad move. In doing this, you must concede that it is possible that there are no historical sources that are reliable, thus we can know nothing about history...which is of course ridiculous. I suggest that even with the flaws, we should consider the New Testament as having some valid truths that we can use in the quest to answer your question. We must rely on faith when considering any historical source.

Before I continue further, I want to say this for the record: it seems to me that humanity has a view of the world, generally, that is selfish in nature. Human nature, I suspect, deems that we express the truth we want people to hear, which is different from what truth really is. What I take your search to be Bill is to look for the truth as it really is not the truth that you, or anyone wants to be as truth. Tough thing to do! Many here admire you for it, including me.

1. If Jesus was simply a moral teacher who taught we should love our enemies and know ourselves, it seems odd that his followers would be systematically martyred for preaching this. Would it seem more likely that they were martyred because they preached the resurrection as part of Christian doctrine? This would be in line with someone who believed that the person who was their rabbi performed miracles, died, and returned to life. But let's assume that Jesus did survive the crucifixion. And the flogging. And the piercing of his side which some evidence leads people to believe the pericardium was pierced. The apostles are now martyred because they know and believe that Jesus survived, but preach He returned from the dead. What do we know about human nature? What I know tells me that if someone knows a lie, they won't die for it unless they believe it was true. Here's a thought experiment. Suppose you undergo a painful, and generally lethal process like crucifixion. Three days later, are you likely to appear on a road and walk with your students, later walk into a room where your students are hiding, terrified the authorities will be coming for them next? Or are you more likely to have those students brought to your room where you're being tended by doctors and healers?

2. Jesus didn't just teach that we should love our enemies and know ourselves. He taught that even in the face of death, we should assert the truth and trust that the assertion would be rewarded. And the proof of that was the resurrection. So now, hundreds and thousands of years later, we are in the same situation. And yes, the Sanhedrin still exists. It exists in the Church, it exists in contemporary philosophy and social values. What I find ironic...and somewhat sinister...is that to some degree, both sides of this debate, those who are "catholic" in their belief (I mean the sense of catholic being "true") exist on both sides of this debate, and the victim is the authentic Jesus! In my opinion, that is the perfect conspiracy because neither side sees the truth of what's really going on.

3. Ohoh. This means there's something else going on. What is it? People on the forum, all over in all kinds of threads have been saying they feel like something is coming, something doesn't feel right, something feels not right, there's a change about to happen. Is it possible that this feeling is what we, every single human being, know to be the real truth of the matter? Is it possible that we are waking up? Is it possible we can stay awake? I'd like to offer a suggestion. Get a Bible. And read the Book of Revelation, The Apocalypse, but do so allegorically. Do so....ugh, dare I say it....from a personal perspective. Consider the last book of the New Testament as a guide. It explains what will happen once you begin to challenge what you consider to be truth in great detail. Everything in the book will represent something about you. Once you've done that, re-read the book. But this time, consider the community you live in. Then the nation you live in. Then the world. There is a battle between good and evil that is very real and very relevant to our perceptions. Plato talked about this in the Allegory of the Cave. I suggest the feeling people feel is evidence of that battle as it's going on. We all know truth. I believe it's in us innately. But we are conditioned by our parents, by our educational system, by our politics, our relationships, the movements we belong to, the religious movements we belong to, it is inescapable. Jesus gave us a blueprint to break out of this. The black hats realized this. So they tried to kill him.

I think maybe at first, the ordering of the books of the cannon was done, thinking the early bishops had to guide us because they didn't want us to be misguided. Maybe their motives were well intended, maybe they weren't. The difficulty is breaking out of our conditioning because human nature won't allow it to happen. It can't. Because if one of us is right, that means the rest of us are wrong. And we don't want to be wrong.

Bill I agree with the last point about the second coming. Every human being in the world has the potential to realize and act on the fact that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent controlling agency. The problem is the vast majority of them can't see this because they don't know how. And, I think, this is where the black hats at the top really have the power because they know this, they exploit it, and they count on people not waking up from it. I was really lucky in that I found an instructor who had been through the process of waking up. Heck, the bottom line is it wasn't chance. And every single one of you on this forum who reads this should not believe me until you test what I say to be true about myself, and about yourself too.

Jesus challenged the ordered authority. They tried to kill him. If, and a big If, you accept that He did in fact return from the dead because He was the son of God...doesn't that actually stand in line with just about everything that everyone is trying to do here?

I'm not suggesting anyone accept this blindly. The black hats are expecting you not to because they've given us the truth, as it is, and are counting on us not accepting it.

Let me put it another way. Our world is in fact full of things that are impossible, and still happen. Why is it so easy to believe that extra terrestrials came into my room, carried me down a flight of stairs, and possibly did things to me with an agenda that I simply don't have the evidence or memory to fully comprehend, and yet it is so difficult to think that Jesus was the son of God?

Let me finish with an example. In my 20's and 30's I did a lot of spiritual searching, and spent a lot of time with First Nations elders here in Saskatchewan. I spent a week-end with a metis elder, Kent. Kent is (I hope he's still alive!) a bit of a maveric. He lived off the grid when I met him, went out of his way to help people but had his issues like the rest of us. Kent lived in a mobile home in the bush a few miles away from Sturgis, Saskatchewan. One afternoon towards supper time, his wife was prepearing supper in the kitchen and he was heading outside. She saw a bolt of lighting before it passed around a tree in front of the mobile home, then the roof, and then into Kent. He said he was smoking a little bit, turned to his wife, and said "I've been hit by lightning!" "" she said. So she got him into the car, got him to the nearest hospital, and he spent the next month or so recovering. The doctors told him he was very lucky to be alive.

When he returned home, as he was walking up the driveway.......he was hit again.

Impossible odds. Just because something is extremely improbable does not rule out the possibility that it can, or has, happened.

You have no reason to trust what is behind what I'm saying except that I have tried to present what I believe in a common-sense way and hope that in time, given what I post, who I am will become clear, as will what I believe and represent. I hope you see it as friendship.

If I have said anything that seems offensive, forgive me. That was not my intent. If I have been unclear, it is because what I write is sometimes bigger than what I am able to express. Again, forgive me.

With deepest respect and admiration,

Pete M. aka Milneman

[Crystine]

Can you remember anything at all about the book and what was in it? Was it a private document, or a published book? Can you remember any clues that may help someone to find it?
Parent Post

I realize this post is from several months ago. But many years ago a friend loaned me a book. It positively sent me into a dither. I was not ready at that time for the knowledge this book imparted to my self. The book was,"My Other Self " don't recall the author. Bob insisted I should give it back quickly.

[Crystine]

Wonderful. Thankyou Milneman.

Maybe there are many here who have become "Watchers or perhaps, Waiters," because there is no more they can say.

[Crystine]

MY OTHER SELF
Greetings to you all, Glory here. About 20 years ago my sister Eta gave me an extract from a book called "My Other Self" the author is Clarence J Enzler [1910 -1976]. I dont know much about Clarence only that he was American and he wrote other books one of which was "Everyone's way of the Cross". I haven't even read "My other self". But this extract really speaks to the heart I just think it is wonderful. [I am sure if you are interested you could get the book on Amazon].

In this extract Clarence is letting Jesus speak heart to heart to the individual soul.
MY OTHER SELF [by Clarence J. Enzler]

My dear friend, My greatest desire is that you be happy. Believe that I am goodness itself. Believe that I want your happiness far more that you yourself want it.
Try to realise that I see all your thoughts and emotions. All your troubles and desires. I know you far more intimately than you know yourself. I know you not only as you are, but as you have been, and as you will be; and I know all of this NOW.

There is no past or future with Me; there is only the eternal now. If, then, I hold you and all things in existence by my will, no one thing can happen without my permission. You cannot move, talk, listen, feel, see, or think without my concurrence. Of yourself you cannot raise your finger, blink your eye; your heart cannot beat your lungs expand. You cannot think a single thought without My doing much more of the work than you do yourself. Literally you can do nothing, neither good or evil, without Me. I am in all that you do; all that you do, you can do only in, with, and through My power. Whatever I send you or permit to happen to you is, under the circumstances, the best that could be. For those who love Me, all things work together for good. They must. I will have it no other way.

This is My power. Realize it. Ponder it. Meditate, and understand how foolhardy it is not to trust in Me. How foolish to resist My will, when no one can alter My decrees. I am your refuge and your strength, Abandon yourself to Me. Do not doubt Me, My friend, Do not be irritated at your pain, your losses, your sickness, your enemies. View them as the means by which I guide you to Myself.

If opposition and affliction were not the food of your spiritual growth, I would never allow them to approach you, much less touch you. I send you nothing that is too heavy for you to bear. Everything is fitted precisely to your strength. If you realized My love for you, you would surely have confidence in Me. Before the world was made, I loved you. When there was no earth, no sun, no angels, I knew you were to be, when you would appear, what place you would have in My plan, how long you would live, what thoughts you would think and what prayers you would pray - and I loved you.


Time never was when I did not love you. My making you was the expression of My infinite, eternal love, I love you far more than you love yourself, do not be afraid to abandon yourself wholly to Me. Is there anything that I have not done, and that I can do, to win your complete confidence? Tell Me and I will do it. Remember I died for you. Cling to Me with all your heart, with all your will, and I will make you a Saint. The love of a mother, even the love of My Mother for Me, is nothing to My love for you.

"Just as the Father loves Me, so I love you". I willingly died for you centuries before you were conceived in your mother's womb. And I would die for you again, as often as might be necessary, if by dying I could win your love and your salvation. What ever I do, whatever I send to you, should delight you. A thousand times a day I smooth your way and strengthen you with My grace. I see you always and I love you always. Have confidence then, as a little child. As you hope and trust, so shall you receive. Never fear that you ask too much of Me. Such humility is not humility, but lack of trust. I say to you as to My Apostles, "Why are you so timid? How is it that you are still without faith?"

The above is an excerpt from the book. It tells the flavor of the book. MY OTHER SELF.

[Gaia]

We can not legitimately regret religions ... But they seized the story of Jesus Christ and imposed visions sometimes very dogmatic for two thousand years, which differ significantly from the message of the prophet Jesus. Thank you Bill!

[1 flew over]

Posted by Milneman (here)

What I find ironic...and somewhat sinister...is that to some degree, both sides of this debate, those who are "catholic" in their belief (I mean the sense of catholic being "true") exist on both sides of this debate, and the victim is the authentic Jesus! In my opinion, that is the perfect conspiracy because neither side sees the truth of what's really going on.

Pete

I am not sure where to start. This is a PA link to a rambling I did a while ago that might give you an idea who I am and where I am coming from https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...581#post710581

I am not sure if you have taken the time to look through this and the other recent "Jesus" thread for a feel of what has already discussed. I think that many of your points, feelings and beliefs have been discussed earlier in one place or another. I am respectful of viewpoints other than my own and don't like flame wars.

When these threads started I was at an 6 day Christ Consciousness workshop given by a Episcopalian Minister that I highly respect and consider a friend so I am not the anti-Christ. I was not there to find ammunition for attacking Christians. I was there out of sincere interest. I used to be Christian but I believe that what actually went on was highly altered, some to reduce and some to enhance what may have transpired. I just don’t feel that the RC Church’s abridged version is complete or without intentional misdirection. I am moderately sure that God didn't speak English at that time or at least in that area. I think that it was intentionally distorted to fit what the early leaders of the RC Church wanted to portray and the direction that they wanted to head. In my humble opinion I think that there is a MUCH more complete picture of what and who Yesua was in the non-Orthodox scriptures. That is covered fairly well in this or the other thread.

There are just too many differing Christian Bibles for any one to be the absolute truth.

There are just too many conflicting or at least differing viewpoints in the only Bible that I have read but I have little doubt that other versions of the Bible have discrepancies in its main authors.

I seriously doubt that most of the people who followed Yesua were even literate. I think that it has been pretty much agreed upon that even the earliest writings by the “Apostles” were probably written by scribes after most of these men and women had died.

This is another post from that other thread:

To start; Bill thanks for the thread, good discussion.

I have been studying with a biblical theologian and one of the things that she mentioned that had a fairly profound effect on me was that the definitions of words have changed over time. Duh, well yea. A specific point of that is the word mercy. In my youth I had always been taught that the meaning of “God have mercy on me” was sort of like; a old kind of angry guy with a white beard sitting on a cloud that can see and know everything that I do, looking down on this poor downtrodden sinner and hoping that he wouldn’t strike me down for being so lowly and undeserving. Needless to say, I threw out the baby with the bathwater and quit the whole thing. There are enough repressive things to content with without having that one sitting on me too. What my friend brought to my attention was that mercy in its origin was from the same root as commerce or merchant and it actually means, may I have an exchange with you or I wish to be a part of your knowledge. for me this was a fairly significant shift in intention or meaning. This was just one point that I thought might be worth mentioning. She had mentioned that according to the original Aramaic, ancient Hebrew, Coptic and early Greek versions of the Canon there is a wide meaning, intention and direction that has ended up being distributed in the current Bibles. The above mercy concept was just one.

May Your God be with You
1 Flew Over

[Kalamos]

..........

[1 flew over]

Posted by Christine Lori (here)
Can you remember anything at all about the book and what was in it? Was it a private document, or a published book? Can you remember any clues that may help someone to find it?
Parent Post

I realize this post is from several months ago. But many years ago a friend loaned me a book. It positively sent me into a dither. I was not ready at that time for the knowledge this book imparted to my self. The book was,"My Other Self " don't recall the author. Bob insisted I should give it back quickly.

I did a quick check on Alibris Books and Amazon and came up with the following

My Other Self: In Which Christ Speaks to the Soul on Living His Life by Clarence J. Enzler
My Other Self: Conversations with Christ on Living Your Faith by Clarence J. Enzler

My Other Self: The Letters of Olive Schreiner and Havelock Ellis, 1884-1920

My Other Self: Sexual fantasies, fetishes and kinks by Angela Lewis

Because of the thread I gave the top two first chance and the bottom one probably not but you never know.

Be Well
1 Flew Over

EDIT
I just scrolled down and you answered your own question. Opps

[Crystine]

Thank you 1 flew over.i appreciate the hand up.

to all: The book is not about religion. It is about the nature of your spirit. The truth about who we are.

[Crystine]

Posted by 1 flew over (here)

Posted by Christine Lori (here)
Can you remember anything at all about the book and what was in it? Was it a private document, or a published book? Can you remember any clues that may help someone to find it?
Parent Post

I realize this post is from several months ago. But many years ago a friend loaned me a book. It positively sent me into a dither. I was not ready at that time for the knowledge this book imparted to my self. The book was,"My Other Self " don't recall the author. Bob insisted I should give it back quickly.

I did a quick check on Alibris Books and Amazon and came up with the following

My Other Self: In Which Christ Speaks to the Soul on Living His Life by Clarence J. Enzler
My Other Self: Conversations with Christ on Living Your Faith by Clarence J. Enzler

My Other Self: The Letters of Olive Schreiner and Havelock Ellis, 1884-1920

My Other Self: Sexual fantasies, fetishes and kinks by Angela Lewis

Because of the thread I gave the top two first chance and the bottom one probably not but you never know.

Be Well
1 Flew Over

EDIT
I just scrolled down and you answered your own question. Opps

Thank you 1 flew over. I need a pass on the confusion. I am not great on posting with a quote. I can capture the text, but not the quote marks. Sorry. My mistake. But the book is not about religion.. It is about the Christ Conciousness . When I first read it I had not ever heard of that awakening. So it really threw me for a loop. It goes deep into the concept.
It maybe very old. But I see it is available again. Maybe some Avalonians should give it a look see. An antique gem. I am ordering it. My copy was mimeographed. That's OLD!

[Kalamos]

..........