Describe "Utopia." YOUR own vision, your own version of utopia

[araucaria]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
I am also assuming that Chester (justoneman), though he may have a powerful libido, would not really want to exploit/own/control women.

Chester's libido is not all he cracks it up to be. Sometimes he fails to spot a young lady altogether, even when shown her twice (in "greybeard"'s sunglasses)

Posted by justoneman (here)
Who's Sophia? I was seeing greybeard's smile. I must be ancient.

[Finefeather]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------

I was there once, and it has been mythologized as Shambhala. The real name was Shang-Shung, in western Tibet: even now it is extremely hard to get to. Here is a photo of the ruins:

I was there for four lifetimes, in the AD 820-975 period. It was a beautiful, idyllic community of peace, study, meditation and learning. The little paradise -- which was famous for a thousand miles around -- eventually fell into dereliction through natural climate change, when the rains failed.

Hi Bill
I guess that explains the hat then? Love you...

[CD7]

C'mon, put those fingers on that keyboard. Please do look at the original post, and try to include those potential Catch-22s in utopia: 'possession' and 'persons harming others.' How are they handled in your vision of Utopia?

Thank you!

I am going to say tht the TURNIQUIT STRAPPED around humanities neck is #1 priority. This is why im always ranting for free food and free housing. Without this release, not much will BLOOM into ANY utopia.

As far as behavior----as a juvenile probation counselor, program counselor, myself a juvenile delinquent, I feel I have a grasp on some levels why most of these individuals self destruct and create havoc around them. It is a result of the basic foundation this whole globe is built upon...and I am not going to go into a long post to explain what most here already KNOW wht I mean in this regard.

I sincerely wish the electronic poles being erected all over would disappear...sincerely

[jiminii]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
OK, Let's let Gripreaper's tongue-in-cheek response represent a percentage of the population who are so unevolved that the furthest they can think in a discussion of a utopian Earth is self-gratification (material goods and even possessing a 'harem', indicating an exploitative, sociopathic "use" of women as sex toys.)

It is a caricature, but I'm sure it does express the real "utopian vision" of a percentage of humans.

Looking forward to Gripreaper's sincere vision, as it could not be much further from the one he posted.

That post of his does put a magnifying glass on one of the bullet points of info that I had hoped each person would think about and post their ideas on:

• What (if anything) would you solely own and what (if anything) would have no ownership (either shared among all or be "off-limits"/preserved)

The answer to this question should be honest, straightforward, and off the top of your head. The answer to this question is one of the reasons I started the thread, and is a strong hint of another thread (yet to be started) that analyzes the contents of this one.

Come one, come all... everyone from the newest member to the oldest, from the prolific posters to those who mainly read. Membership at Avalon is not just for reading (anyone can read - you don't need to be a member to read), and this is a topic that should be very easy to be interactive - it is simply expressing your opinion as opinion. What are your hopes and dreams for Earth and humanity while on Earth? A few people feel that Earth, the way humanity interacts with the Earth, and the way humanity interacts with humanity (including the most nefarious, most selfish, most warlike, most exploitative, most heinous behaviors such as torture and murder) is perfect - don't change a thing. Most others would request or create changes if they could. If you feel that anything is "out-of-whack", then use it to help you describe your vision of utopian living on Earth.

Thanks!

Dennis

make sure the harem is Big with the most beautiful of each race with all sizes and types and all very sensual exotic and fully electrical charged and HUNGRY for men, (only one man will be there), so that Gripreaper will be so overwhelmed he will be running into the woods hiding in the trees trying not to get caught by all these seductive women. We don't want them to be slaves, (that would be no fun), but to be TOTALLY IN LOVE WITH GRIPREAPER.

And he must maintain this harem of thousands of girls or he will not get any food. This way we can guarantee he will be totally saturated to the nth degree for the next 100,000 million years

good luck Gripreaper

jim

[grannyfranny100]

Dennis you asked for more discussion and Donk said, "The only thing that should ever be owned is responsibility for yourself (actions, thoughts, emotions)" which brings up an issue I feel: SLOBS.

I know people who have the money to own rental properties but don't because renters do not take care of properties. Many renters live like animals except animals don't spoil their own nests like many renters do. And if one owns a property rather than rent, many neighbors borrow stuff and "forget" to return it and if they do, they have abused the item. Or like one thread here, the neighbor did not return outdoor furniture and her kids were using it like a jungle gym. When the Avalon member tried to address this issue, the woman claimed he was picking on her because she was black!

In our society, we have been socially engineered to use up stuff, dispose of it and buy new. That even applies to cell phones. Who needs to buy a new one every two years, yet all the advertising makes it seem that you have to have some new feature on the latest model.

I am amazed every time I go into a Verizon store at the poorly dressed people who look like they couldn't afford a cell phone. Yet there they are seeking the status of a new cellphone. Their basic grooming sucks so bad that you can tell they don't even wash their hands after using a restroom and could be dropping head lice on every phone they try out.

And a new concept has developed in cities: belong to some coop that owns vehicles and you just use one when you need one. Sounds like a great cost cutting idea. But what happens when you get a vehicle littered with trash like a Fabreeze car freshener ad. Do we just leave a commonly owned vehicle looking like a MacDonald's trash barrel but smelling good?

Now that I am an old fart, I admit that some of my behavior in my younger years doesn't measure up to my current standards. As Donk said, "own responsibility for yourself" but how would society deal with this? Since tattoos are popular these days, do we tattoo "slob" on the person's forehead, force them into some mind control entrainment, banned them from the coop because the initial membership documentation is filled with legalese to cover every possible irresponsible behavior?

In our society we seemed to have raised several generations who think "freedom" means they can do whatever they want irregardless of the consequences to others. Some of them can not see farther than straight ahead as they walk backward into others or park their shopping carts so that others can't get past them. They seem to lack comprehension of others.

Oh yes, this is not a rarified comment on a New Age vision of a society of higher spiritual stuff. It is a comment on the deterioration of a society that has become more barbarian with every passing generation. How do we blend "freedom" with accountability in our utopian society?

[donk]

Missing accountability (responsibility) is why we don't live in a utopia now....which is why it is really the only limit in my vision of achieving one.

We've been programmed to fear self-correction, which then gets projected on others, so we live in a world where to work together to respect all things (and all life) is a lot harder than it should be...the programming includes conflict, which most seem addicted to.

That's why ownership of information has to go. It needs to be shared, and the important stuff (like emotional maturity--aka responsibility, aka accountability) maybe even pushed a little.

[CD7]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Paul (here)
The intended URL as an active link, for your viewing pleasure: Movie: The Green Beautiful - "La Belle Verte" - Really Rare Awakening Movie Now Available In English - 1 Hour 30 Minutes.

Ah - now that I've glanced at what this is - I remember seeing it before.

It is a really, really, wonderful movie. Please do see it!

Indeed, what a wonderful movie!....yes I can see why this would not be popular lol...

I could really identify with the woman and her experiences on earth--how things can appear when looked at through different lenses!!

I have visuals that would make their 'utopian' planet still look like a slum lol!! Im sure others out there do too! The points they were showing came through the movie very well.

[grannyfranny100]

Donk, humans rely on fear based ego impressions which are easily manipulated. Delving into our internal subconscious is unimaginable to most. It requires a willingness for personal responsibility which most people prefer to avoid. it is hard to be aware of and change our own internal perceptions that would allow for responsibility and human evolution. It is easier to just engage in the usual habits of our existing world.

I adore your version of a utopia based on responsibility but suggest it will take many generations to achieve given our dualistic mindset and our divergence from shamans, nature and unconscious awareness.

I just viewed again a video that explains the conflict of ego versus subconscious in our dualistic mind: Kymatica http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/...cumentary.html.

[donk]

I agree a million percent with your well stated assessment of the situation GF...and alas, explanation...of why it will (probably) always be a utopian (impossible) dream...

Look forward to checking out the vid, thanks!!

[Dennis Leahy]

(I got a PM from a friend that I had hoped would provide their unique vision in this thread, and realized that the use of the word "utopia" was itself a problem. I decided to use my answer in this thread.)

Thanks, *****. I think you have underscored the real problem with that thread...

The whole topic and its title was poorly worded. I should not have used the word "utopia" as it carries too much weight, and too much fantasy. It was supposed to be a shortcut to saying "the world and society as I would like to see it." The other aspect the word "utopia" evidently conveys to some folks is a personal utopia rather than a planetary utopia.


I find many people are simply "reactive", and bitch when things are not the way they want. When someone takes something away, they bitch. Not as many express with detail how they would structure society if they had the chance to make it to their own vision. <--- here, I should not have inserted the word "utopia." I have a feeling that a huge block of US citizens would stop bitching (and would not push for any other major changes) if the economy and government was rolled back to the 1950's, and they could get on with dreaming their "American Dream" - with 'utopia' measured simply by their personal acquisitions, their pile of stuff, with little or no regard to the rest of humanity or the environment.

In the US, we have a growing fascist government with a homicidal imperialist military, and a domestic army (DHS) and militarized police force, and control of our government by international bankers, oligarchs, and multinational corporations. We know what corporations do when they have no restrictions (they dominate and then monopolize a niche - as Monsanto has done - and some know no bounds, even defiling our DNA - as Monsanto has done.) Some Libertarians realize that what they really want is a free individual; some believe that society would function better if corporations also are free and unrestricted (seemingly looking only at theoretical "free markets" and not at what corporations actually do to the environment and humans: ecocide and exploitation.)

Some anarchists and anarco-libertarians want government dismantled. Some mean literally no government at all; some mean a government pared down to the bone. I had hoped that some would share their vision along these lines (if that is their vision.) I can imagine having no government for interactions between myself and my neighbor, perhaps when I have a bag of carrots and he has a dozen eggs, but I have not seen the vision fleshed-out on paper for hundreds of millions of people (with varying levels of integrity, and varying levels of tolerance for someone owning essential resources.) If two neighbors cannot come to an agreement over the carrots and eggs, that's one thing, but if your "neighbor" owns the water rights to the aquifer and decides in the free market to quintuple the price of your water, well, we have a different realm of ramifications.

We've gotten a bit of the Socialist vision (for example, the inclusion of Jacques Fresco's Venus Project), but the "no ownership, at all" discussion often lacks the detail of everyday life and interactions. In your vision, is it "your" toothbrush - you own it and have rights to it - or does it belong to the community? How about the shoes you're wearing... if you take them off to sit under a tree, is it OK if I put them on and walk away? How about the garden soil you've spent 20 years amending, the bed you sleep in, the house you've been occupying? Is it really workable - or desirable - to have absolutely no ownership?

I find these details usually missing in discussing the lofty utopian (er, "the world and the society as I would like to see it") visions.

If the issue of ownership is a powerful dividing line between visions, does it have to be a strict dichotomy (nothing is owned by individuals/everything is owned by individuals), or could there be a scale of degree of ownership, or classification of what would remain as individually owned (toothbrush, shoes, bed, house...) and what was community owned+protected+shared (air, water, infrastructure like roads, bridges, sewers, water treatment, public buildings, etc., non residential land, possibly even all farmland...)?

I have also seen "No coercion!" expressed as part of a utopian vision (which I believe stems from a desire not to be forced into paying any taxes, and it makes me wonder where the energy and money will come from to maintain everything publicly owned) and if there is no coercion of any sort, how does society (how do you) deal with societal miscreants? Certainly, a percentage of the population will be greedy, manipulative, mean-spirited, and even violent. Unless your vision has all of those folks going "poof!" and disappearing, how would you deal with them?

So, I apologize for using the word "utopia." It obviously has too much baggage, and has strong ties to fantasy for some folks.

I'll give this one last shot, and hope to get a few more people expressing their vision, and then I'll post mine (which is not any more correct or wrong than anyone else's.) Feel free to amend, edit, or append additional remarks, disregarding the fantasy attributes associated with "utopia", and offer your vision of the community, the nation, and the world you want to live in. Right now, a small handful of very greedy people control the resources of the planet, suppress energy technology that could usher-in a utopian vision that includes making (at least some) fantasy real, and are pushing for more and more control over every aspect of our lives. Certainly this is not your vision "the world and society as I would like to see it." This is your chance to design the next phase of societal changes to make a vastly better world for everyone, all life forms - dare I call it a planetary utopia.

Dennis

[camper]

My utopia would be present day living. No locks on my doors, wouldn't need them. I could take a walk at 3am if I couldn't sleep and not be afraid. Cars wouldn't run on gas and oil, I'm sure they can already do that now. A decent home for everyone! No one should be hungry ever. There are no wars, there are no borders you can't cross, and there are no more crooked Politicians!!! PEACE

[Ron Mauer Sr]

My "Utiopia" is more a change of personal consciousness than anything else. I want the ability to visit anyone, any animal, any place I have ever loved. Visit for as long as I please. Come and go on my command.

I want freedom, well being and joy for myself and the ability to grant freedom, well being and joy to anyone, any animal I meet who chooses to accept it.

I want to easily cut through , find truth and have an ongoing clear conscious two way communication with my soul.

In joy, safety and harmony I want to explore the unknown.

[Carmen]

Camper, apart from the fuel I still use, you are describing where I live. No locks on any doors! Don't even know where the keys would be to lock them if I wanted to . Every vehicle, farm and personal is not locked and keys remain in the ignitions! No harm comes to anyone if they wish to wander outside at three in the morning either. I do have a Mareema guardian dog who welcomes you, but if your vibration was not right you would not get near the house.

[araucaria]

Here is an interesting utopian novel I remember enjoying in 2005 and have only just rediscovered. It is called Bellamy Writes Again and is written by Joseph Myers, who would seem to be the reincarnation of Edward Bellamy, best-selling author of Looking Backward, which this book ‘attempt[s] to improve upon’. It tells the story of a man who travels forward to the year 2103, which is the same plotline as the earlier book a century before.


http://reincarnation2002.com/on-line_book.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_Backward


Bellamy’s book is here:
http://www.unification.net/bellamy/

[risveglio]

Hi Dennis,

I put this in the other thread. I have been trying hard to define our vision and just have not been able to put on paper and I think its because its not possible to describe a Utopian vision because our vision is anti-utopian. This short article offers the best description I have read to attempt to explain how we think.

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/libra...against-utopia

[Milneman]

My Utopia is simple. People tell the truth. That's really all you need. As long as people are being truthful, they're not going to hurt each other, the planet, themselves.

And the truth is, my Utopia will never happen.

Thank God for chocolate.

[Dennis Leahy]

I never could get anyone to fully express a vision of anarchy, or anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-tribalism, or constitutionalism... even though when I talk to people (often people complaining that The Reset Button does not directly aim at their vision), I do hear these visions expressed.

My point in this thread thus never really materialized, because the contrasts (that I know ARE there), were not really expressed. Once expressed, my big point was going to be to ask everyone to step back and recognize that not only do we have many different visions of an ideal way for a society full of human and non-human life forms to live and thrive in (which I should not have called "utopia", as that word has too much baggage), but we also are looking at (our ideal) end state, and not the path - especially the first step - to get there.

So, where does that leave us?

Well, for me, it left me looking for our common ground - and it left me with the understanding that my own vision of "utopia", no matter how benign, compassionate, loving, inclusive, embracing of cultural and spiritual differences... was still going to be someone's nightmare (and I suspect that their vision would be for me as well.)

Common ground was very much taken into account as I went through the process of reading everything social/political I could devour, as well as taking time to "cogitate" on the bridges between the expressed ideas and ideals - then the gems were plucked, paraphrased, edited, blended with some of my own thoughts, edited again, and published as The Reset Button.

Note that no one speaking of their ideals/utopia is expressing being oppressed, suppressed, dominated, corralled, controlled, manipulated, poisoned, choked, made ill, made subservient, lied to, kept in the dark, robbed, or enslaved.

It might sound stupid, but that is our common ground. Of course, our common ground is not all expressed in negatives: we also all want to be loved, appreciated, healthy, to live in peace and harmony...

But just for a moment, go back to the negative list. I think if people are really awake and aware, that list pretty well describes exactly what the Ruling Class is doing to us (common, ordinary citizens/people.) It doesn't matter what your utopia is - until that list of negatives is halted, you won't live your utopia. The first step HAS to be halting the Ruling Class from being empowered to continue that way of treating us.

[ An aside:
This is the point where I always lose a few people who believe that everything comes down to the individual, and that they can halt (or believe they already have halted) the Ruling Class from ruling them. They simply will not see the system, the big picture, society in general - believing that each individual can (and must) fix only themselves, and that it will add up to a fixed society. I find this viewpoint narcissistic and ignorant. For example, every one of us breathes in toxins with every breath. Every breath. No escaping it, not even on a mountaintop. The vast majority of humans (and septillions of non-human creatures) drink polluted water. There is simply NO way to "fix" this on an individual level. Polluted air is a social problem, a societal problem and will be fixed (or ignored) by society. The liquid state of water provides a slightly better chance of filtration than the air we breathe, but even then, your garden is rained-on with polluted rain, and you'd have to sequester your self away from all outdoor natural bodies of water to avoid polluted water.

Millions of prisoners, the institutionalized, much of the elderly, many young children...eat poisonous (GMO, pesticide and herbicide and fungicide-drenched) food, as it is the only food made available to them. They certainly cannot "fix" this, only society can.

Almost everyone born into poverty lives an impoverished life and dies in poverty. With the inverse-Ubuntu pyramid structure of capitalism, regardless how many people aspire and strive to leave poverty - and work hard - most never succeed in "fixing" their own or their family's poverty.

These are just a few of the most obvious examples of why "fixing oneself" is not enough. It's a beautiful thing - if you can do it - but it's not enough. ]

So, common ground is halting the Ruling Class from ruling - to displace them and the paradigm they have set up to ensure their continued success at ruling us. What we do - after we actually gain control over our own governance - is up to us, and it is possible that it could split off into several divergent experimental sub-groups within society (each pursuing their vision of "utopia.") But one thing we know for sure: as long as the Ruling Class is allowed to continue ruling us, we will be subject to their will, their vision, not ours.

Now you know where The Reset Button came from, and why it focuses on the first step, and not a prearranged direction for the second and subsequent steps. First, we gain self-governance. Then... well, then we will be able to actually explore our vision(s.)

Dennis

{edit} sorry, numerous typos and a couple of half-finished sentences in the above when I hit the "Submit Reply" instead of "Preview Post" button. I think I have now fixed the typos and finished the dangling thoughts.

[donk]

Note that no one speaking of their ideals/utopia is expressing being oppressed, suppressed, dominated, corralled, controlled, manipulated, poisoned, choked, made ill, made subservient, lied to, kept in the dark, robbed, or enslaved.

It might sound stupid, but that is our common ground. Of course, our common ground is not all expressed in negatives: we also all want to be loved, appreciated, healthy, to live in peace and harmony...

It doesn't sound stupid to me.

It's ashame Dennis, if people weren't so caught in their distress from their lack of love, being unappreciated, unhealthy, etc on that individual level, they'd be available to see (& help out on) the collective level.

The collective is such a mess right now, by the design of the faith-based system we continue to choose to live in, that it's tough. A perfect psychopath cyclical ****storm, has us eating our own tails as species.

I appreciate you Dennis.

[Bill Ryan]

[Anka]

My utopia (unpersonal) is at the number 8 billion and something, among a large list, mentioned only in passing somewhere.
Imagine: Almost 8 billion solutions passed in the chapter "Utopia" and we are still looking for the truth in a non-place for which all we can fight are concepts also invented by us, it's a beautiful irony.

It would take me millennia to count the consequences of long-term history in the world, to gather the tense or liberating moments multiplied by billions of thoughts from then until now, still counting and analyzing, to find good solutions in "just my opinion" ..
What am I compared to 8 billion opinions about it all together?

The term itself is an identity (if you ask me), although it is very much complemented by billions of visions. When you say "Utopia", someone asks you, "Where's the rush?" and when "hurry" presses, we begin to look unexpectedly for the same utopia. It is not the definition that will bring us happiness but the way we may all someday understand it, my hopes are vain but beautiful.

I think that for everyone, utopia should be at least in two places, in the reality in which he lives (a mandatory utopia) and in the reality he wants, so we have to work twice as much and it seems impossible and wonderful.

But my utopia lies in a distant world, where meditation is life itself, in an equal community, where "waters" outline words as expressions of planetary energies. My vision is somewhere between these two worlds, the symbol of attention and contemplation results in the relentless idea of ​​trying a sequence of order in one's own exercise of life, it is not a predetermination but it seems to be more of a courage.

Before we build something, we must really find out if it depends on us, as a reflection in the absence of solutions, I do not think I can call a solution as a treaty categorically, at least not without the rest of the human community.


Interpretations and principles are endless, and there will always be someone to explain the ultimate solutions to a definitive clarification, and on the other side are the others who have no solutions but can feel or dream.

Of course, ethics, morals, science, faith and others will always intervene, in motives that have not yet been able to write the fabulous history of human evolution as we all dreamed.
Philosophy is just conversation, education comes before philosophy, the ability to tell the truth and to love unconditionally has become a dream in itself in a present society.

So among the most golden rules in a society, the return to innocence should be fundamental.
I don't feel entitled to give advice, I think the vision is about an intimate decision and maybe destiny, I'm glad that there are categories of people who are still working to build a good society, while there are other people who have an antipathy for utopia, but between exaltation and failure, we still live our lives.

Joy and happiness in relation to stability, compete today more with "having" than with a simple state of joy of fulfillment, and if it is "having" then we may not be able to place our goals correctly ( we don't ask the right question when we ask ourselves, "At what price do I play my life today?" What is the sacrifice we are willing to pay for a community as large as humanity?
Something that gives security, strength and confidence to others and more.

If utopia meant happiness, then lucidity would complete it in clarity which is more important.
I'm sorry that I can't contribute more to the idea, although I only sketched some drawings on asphalt to everything I feel, but maybe if I say that I have a perfect tone in contributing with others, it really helps. Otherwise I end up writing too long.

The present utopia is not a place made for a compact happiness, where we wait, it is not a paradise, but it is a place where we wait without having the solution learning to put failure in guaranteeing the ultimate success. The immediate experience of life is an episode from which we can quickly learn how to build reality differently over and over again in honor of another Utopia.