+ Reply to Thread
Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst 1 10 13 LastLast
Results 181 to 200 of 253

Thread: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

  1. Link to Post #181
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    11th May 2013
    Location
    asia
    Age
    78
    Posts
    2,065
    Thanks
    1,980
    Thanked 10,009 times in 1,932 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by ulli (here)
    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)

    I am talking to WOG people. (that is the term we use for others not familiar with us.) It means Western Oriental Gentleman.

    it is the terms the Eastern religious people use to describe the obstinate westerner who comes in to tell them he knows more than they do.

    So they turn his cane into an illusion and he sees it become a snake and he runs out the door.

    So how do you talk to people about religious things without the WORDS that best describe it.

    jim

    The term WOG has lots of racist connotations, as it was used mostly by the British when describing Pakistanis and Indians as opposed to Chinese who were eastern orientals.

    This is the entry in Wikipedia:
    "Wog is slang word in the idiom of British and Australian English employed as an ethnic or racial slur. Considered derogatory and offensive, in British English it is often applied in reference to dark-skinned or olive-skinned person from Africa or Asia. It can be applied to any darker-skinned people, but is used generally to refer to peoples of the East Indies and India, as well as immigrants or migrant workers from the Middle-East."

    No wonder Scientologists have a bad reputation...
    That word has always been a total no-no, as far as I'm concerned.
    But open communication, as you said, Jim, can get to the root of all misunderstandings.
    wow never saw this definition

    thanks

    jim

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jiminii For This Post:

    Flash (26th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  3. Link to Post #182
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    11th May 2013
    Location
    asia
    Age
    78
    Posts
    2,065
    Thanks
    1,980
    Thanked 10,009 times in 1,932 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by ulli (here)
    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)

    I am talking to WOG people. (that is the term we use for others not familiar with us.) It means Western Oriental Gentleman.

    it is the terms the Eastern religious people use to describe the obstinate westerner who comes in to tell them he knows more than they do.

    So they turn his cane into an illusion and he sees it become a snake and he runs out the door.

    So how do you talk to people about religious things without the WORDS that best describe it.

    jim

    The term WOG has lots of racist connotations, as it was used mostly by the British when describing Pakistanis and Indians as opposed to Chinese who were eastern orientals.

    This is the entry in Wikipedia:
    "Wog is slang word in the idiom of British and Australian English employed as an ethnic or racial slur. Considered derogatory and offensive, in British English it is often applied in reference to dark-skinned or olive-skinned person from Africa or Asia. It can be applied to any darker-skinned people, but is used generally to refer to peoples of the East Indies and India, as well as immigrants or migrant workers from the Middle-East."

    No wonder Scientologists have a bad reputation...
    That word has always been a total no-no, as far as I'm concerned.
    But open communication, as you said, Jim, can get to the root of all misunderstandings.
    yeah I guess we are talking about LRH and his explorations into Asia. Now I can see how words from way in the past can be altered in the present.

    LRH said it meant Western Oriental Gentleman

    hahah

    and now an entirely new definition altered from the British who must have heard the word and made their own interpretations

    jim

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jiminii For This Post:

    Flash (26th August 2013), kanishk (26th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  5. Link to Post #183
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    11th May 2013
    Location
    asia
    Age
    78
    Posts
    2,065
    Thanks
    1,980
    Thanked 10,009 times in 1,932 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Use in British English[edit source | editbeta]

    Wog in the UK is usually regarded as a racially offensive slang word referring to a dark-skinned or olive-skinned person from Africa or Asia. It can be applied to any darker-skinned people, but is used generally to refer to peoples of the East Indies and India, as well as immigrants from the Middle-East and Mediterranean. Most dictionaries refer to the word as derogatory and offensive.
    The origin of the term may be unknown, but it was first noted by lexicographer F.C. Bowen, who recorded it in 1929 in his Sea slang: a dictionary of the old-timers’ expressions and epithets, where he defines wogs as "lower class Babu shipping clerks on the Indian coast."[6] Unsupported folk etymology has long explained it as being an acronym for "Westernised (or "Wily") Oriental Gentlemen"[7] used by the British in India and Pakistan, referring to the educated indigenous populace. Many dictionaries say "wog" derives from the golliwog, a blackface minstrel doll character from a children's book published in 1895, or from pollywog, a maritime term for someone who has not crossed the equator.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jiminii For This Post:

    Flash (26th August 2013), kanishk (26th August 2013), ulli (26th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  7. Link to Post #184
    United States Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    12th April 2012
    Location
    east coast suburban sprawl
    Posts
    2,896
    Thanks
    11,666
    Thanked 16,349 times in 2,716 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Is it overtly or covertly hostile to post on a thread you’ve merely skimmed less than 5% of the posts (mostly brilliant, btw)?

    I need to interject my 2 cents, as I have exhausted my patience for passive-aggression, which I am guessing what this thread about? As such, I treat others as I expect to be treated, with aggressive-aggression, whenever feelings of hostility are invoked within a discussion.

    There’s two genuine causes of “hostility” in communication:

    1. Transmitter’s will is being violated
    2. Transmitter is projecting their fears/unresolved issues

    I say “genuine” regarding intent, most cases the transmitter does not even recognize their hostility, let alone the source of it. A third case could be made for manufactured hostility, in the case of a troll planted in a discussion with the intention of dividing the group and obscuring the real information being discussed.

    True emotional maturity means identifying and proper identification and acceptance of responsibility for it, and real growth means finding the ultimate source and dealing with it.

    “Words are like weapons/They wound sometimes” –Cher

    Honesty is the impenetrable force field against it…and I choose force field over shield, because true honesty will not just protect you by deflecting it, it will allow you to absorb it and change that energy into something useful, a lesson learned or even taught.

    And honesty begins and ends within…as you can’t be true to others of if you’re lying to yourself. Ask yourself every time you sense it: where is this hostility coming from? Why does it affect me? And most importantly: how can I change it, turn this divisive energy into something loving, uniting?

    Tempering your tone for the audience is a form of empathy, also a skill that requires much honesty. I have found that challenging people, pushing to the very edge, and occasionally slightly over, the threshhold of "hostility" (aka another's "truth", usually with strong emotions attached, that the receiver has strong feelings about) they can handle. That requires knowing the receiver's threshold, a tall order on a forum, even one as intimate and emotionally mature as this one.

  8. Link to Post #185
    Costa Rica Avalon Member ulli's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th November 2010
    Posts
    13,804
    Thanks
    66,332
    Thanked 127,159 times in 13,484 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)

    yeah I guess we are talking about LRH and his explorations into Asia. Now I can see how words from way in the past can be altered in the present.

    LRH said it meant Western Oriental Gentleman

    hahah

    and now an entirely new definition altered from the British who must have heard the word and made their own interpretations

    jim
    No Jim, this word was already used by the British in the 1920s, well before Hubbard started using it in the fifties.
    British administrators living overseas, ruling their Empire far from home
    and using the term in their gentlemen's clubs, when describing the natives, in a polite yet hostile manner.

    It was actually a good example of covert hostility, as it originated from the term Gollywog.


    I just googled the history of the term, and how it relates to Scientology and came across this interesting information:


    It was presumably in England that Hubbard began to describe non-followers as “wogs.” In her expose Inside Scientology, Janet Reitman elaborates:

    Non-Scientologists were called wogs, a term thrown around liberally among church staff: “wog ideas,” “wog justice,” and “wog science.” Hubbard began to use this offensive British slang term in 1953 to denote any person who was not a Scientologist, in his estimation a “run-of-the-mill, garden-variety humanoid.”

    Hubbard is notoriously enigmatic, so it’s a mystery why he would have borrowed such an offensive epithet. It’s possible he wished to evoke the inherent “foreignness” of outside institutions (this was a time when he was on the wrong side of various government organizations).

    Or it’s possible that “wog” was a reinvention by a man famous for his ability to redraw the definitions of common words. Hubbard used everyday terms like “technology,” “ethics” and “open-minded” in a rather different way than what we are accustomed to. Controversies aside, I find him one of the more fascinating of 20th-Century’s word coiners for that reason; he created his own language, assembled from pieces of (but strikingly different from) everyday English.

    It’s also possible Hubbard misunderstood the word’s offensiveness. Something I find fascinating about cross-dialectal communication is that it is very easy to underestimate the potency of offensive words outside your own variety of English. I am more than aware of how derogatory “wog” is, yet on some fundamental level, I’m not sure I get it.

    Likewise, I would use “wanker” in a blog post title with little thought, but I would agonize over the decision to use “nigger,” no matter how objective the context. Yet Britain’s Advertising Standards Authority actually found “wanker” the slightly more offensive of the two terms among the British public (credit to Lynne Murphy for that tidbit of info). So perhaps Hubbard’s use of “wog” was an innocent mistake?

  9. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to ulli For This Post:

    Billy (27th August 2013), Christine (26th August 2013), Ernie Nemeth (26th August 2013), Flash (26th August 2013), jiminii (26th August 2013), Limor Wolf (26th August 2013), mahalall (26th August 2013), Mark (26th August 2013), shadowstalker (26th August 2013), Sierra (26th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  10. Link to Post #186
    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th August 2010
    Location
    Winning The Galactic Lottery
    Posts
    11,389
    Thanks
    17,597
    Thanked 82,316 times in 10,234 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    More people should study astrology. Being that is the origins of all human study and attempts at higher level rumination.

    It illustrates the cadence of temporal conditions and flow of physical 3d manifestation.

    That 99% of the universe (from a 3d unidirectional timeflow time/space viewpoint) is in a plasma condition (allows for FTL function, via longitudinal and transverse wave function as a PAIR) and rules and manifests all flow in this space.

    That charged plasma, ionic flow and vibrational manifestation, and the connections in these vibrations is the origins of 3d particle function. Then, the whole thing dances in a macro flow system of dimensionally connected 'particles' (as seen in this dimension of 3d time/space).

    If you begin to work on that, then you can begin to understand what all of this means.

    Find the connective tissue.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

  11. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Carmody For This Post:

    Christine (26th August 2013), DarMar (28th August 2013), Ernie Nemeth (26th August 2013), Flash (26th August 2013), jiminii (26th August 2013), Limor Wolf (26th August 2013), Mark (26th August 2013), northstar (26th August 2013), Sierra (26th August 2013), ulli (26th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018), Wind (27th August 2013)

  12. Link to Post #187
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    34,268
    Thanks
    208,959
    Thanked 457,530 times in 32,788 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    -------

    Yes, 'wog' is offensive to most people. Whatever the acronym stands for, it implies one is talking about the unenlightened (or underprivileged) from a superior know-it-all viewpoint.

    Even if one is not, that's the impression given. It doesn't help! I don't think I've ever used the word in my life. I hope I haven't.

    I too looked up the Wikipedia article, which was fascinating. What rang true for me was that it originated from the term (in the British Raj) Working On Government Service, but when local people were those doing that work, it quickly (fueled by British colonial arrogance) became associated with a racial put-down.

    I would appreciate it if this was not used on the forum.

    @ Jim! I mean this with the best intentions. You HAVE HAVE HAVE to find effective ways of talking to the many highly intelligent people here, unused to the jargon that you are familiar with. Misunderstandings will inevitably proliferate.


  13. The Following 23 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    blufire (27th August 2013), BrianEn (26th August 2013), Christine (26th August 2013), Eram (26th August 2013), Ernie Nemeth (26th August 2013), Flash (26th August 2013), Heart-2-Heart (27th August 2013), Jake (26th August 2013), jiminii (26th August 2013), johnf (26th August 2013), kanishk (26th August 2013), Kindling (26th August 2013), Kristin (26th August 2013), Limor Wolf (26th August 2013), mahalall (26th August 2013), Mark (26th August 2013), northstar (26th August 2013), panopticon (27th August 2013), Reinhard (28th August 2013), shadowstalker (26th August 2013), ulli (26th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018), Wind (27th August 2013)

  14. Link to Post #188
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    7th August 2011
    Posts
    2,308
    Thanks
    23,260
    Thanked 14,439 times in 1,555 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Thank you Carmody ~ much over looked IMHO. Syncronizing today... and though off topic I found this posted on the Jesus, Mary and Archons thread.

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    More people should study astrology. Being that is the origins of all human study and attempts at higher level rumination.

    It illustrates the cadence of temporal conditions and flow of physical 3d manifestation.

    -----

    Find the connective tissue.

  15. Link to Post #189
    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th August 2010
    Location
    Winning The Galactic Lottery
    Posts
    11,389
    Thanks
    17,597
    Thanked 82,316 times in 10,234 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    For example, that schizophrenic thinking and being, god complex, thoughts of omnipotence and Jesus complexes are ALL parts of, stages of... human enlightenment.

    Also the idea that it is easier to manipulate the individual than it is to manipulate a universe FOR the individual, so one naturally comes to the conclusion that it is all a fake reality where one is being watched all the time. INEVITABLE... as a chain of logical conclusions. Unstoppably so.

    Modern Freudian psychology makes all those enlightenment stages inaccessible (if it confronts them), and blocks off the conclusion of mental freedom. If, of course, the given seeker allows Freudian psychology to get near them while they are in this delicate stage of 'coming to' (awakening -in these stages).

    along the way, the one on the journey will be misunderstood by those around them. always.

    It is inevitable, as the person passing judgement on the one who seeks enlightenment... has a mind that is too far away from the given journeyer to understand where the journeyer is going or is at.

    http://www.aeonmagazine.com/altered-...oid-delusions/

    Why am I writing this here? Part of the problem is judgement in and of statements and minds. connection that is distant and muted, lost, full of misinterpretations and also of a personal view. And so on.

    I do try to find data and openings in enlightenment in what I read. but it no longer excites my monkey in ways that are negative in a thought controlling way that makes me unable to operate or think. as after all, it is my interpretation and cast reflection, nothing more. I no longer hypnotize myself, via my own filters and colors... through other people's writings.

    Seek detachment.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

  16. The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to Carmody For This Post:

    araucaria (26th August 2013), Christine (26th August 2013), DarMar (28th August 2013), donk (26th August 2013), Ernie Nemeth (26th August 2013), Flash (26th August 2013), Gekko (1st September 2013), Jake (26th August 2013), johnf (26th August 2013), Limor Wolf (26th August 2013), Mark (26th August 2013), markpierre (26th August 2013), Reinhard (28th August 2013), seko (27th August 2013), Sierra (26th August 2013), ulli (26th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018), Wind (27th August 2013)

  17. Link to Post #190
    United States Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    3rd February 2012
    Posts
    5,512
    Thanks
    4,666
    Thanked 24,838 times in 5,080 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    For example, that schizophrenic thinking and being, god complex, thoughts of omnipotence and Jesus complexes are ALL parts of, stages of... human enlightenment.
    Yes - it is necessary for one to get lost, with seemingly no direction home, before one understands that one has never left the house. One has to know the false before one can uncover the truth.

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    Also the idea that it is easier to manipulate the individual than it is to manipulate a universe FOR the individual, so one naturally comes to the conclusion that it is all a fake reality where one is being watched all the time. INEVITABLE... as a chain of logical conclusions. Unstoppably so.
    The very idea to manipulate others is born in the seed of being manipulated by others previously in one's own life, more often than not, during the years of childhood. It is the basic 'Inferiority Complex' instilled by a society that is in pursuit of controlling its members. The inferiority complexed individual seeks to demonstrate, to himself & others, his/her superiority over others in order to compensate for the lack of 'self esteem' that has been stolen away from him/her during the years of innocence. In a way, it is a kind of an 'unconscious revenge' for what has been done to oneself previously. Waking up to the fact & the idea to manipulate others is seen as a wastage of one's own precious life energy & is counterproductive to one's own growth in consciousness.

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    Modern Freudian psychology makes all those enlightenment stages inaccessible (if it confronts them), and blocks off the conclusion of mental freedom. If, of course, the given seeker allows Freudian psychology to get near them while they are in this delicate stage of 'coming to' (awakening -in these stages).
    Yes - Jungian psychology had a much better handle on this. i.e. "mental freedom", better to say "freedom from the mental", as mind itself is the prison (w/ attachments).

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    along the way, the one on the journey will be misunderstood by those around them. always.
    i.e. ALL WORDS ARE LIES

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    It is inevitable, as the person passing judgement on the one who seeks enlightenment... has a mind that is too far away from the given journeyer to understand where the journeyer is going or is at.
    In the end, there is no path, because, in effect, each step one takes upon any given 'path' will only take one further away from himself/herself. In other words there is NO PATH, or there is only One Path which is NO PATH at all. When one comes to understand - there is really nowhere to go & nothing to do... understanding is enough. But of course, initially one has to travel the path that leads nowhere in order to find this out for himself/herself.

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    Why am I writing this here?
    I suspect that it is part of your own learning process & love of sharing with others what you have thus realized for yourself.

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    I do try to find data and openings in enlightenment in what I read. but it no longer excites my monkey in ways that are negative in a thought controlling way that makes me unable to operate or think. as after all, it is my interpretation and cast reflection, nothing more. I no longer hypnotize myself, via my own filters and colors... through other people's writings.
    As Krishnamurti has said - No one needs a teacher to show the way. Everyone has the teacher within themselves.

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    Seek detachment.
    Easier said than done.

    cheers - turiya
    Last edited by turiya; 26th August 2013 at 19:25.

  18. Link to Post #191
    Retired
    Join Date
    7th December 2010
    Location
    Beyond
    Age
    50
    Posts
    3,689
    Thanks
    34,680
    Thanked 27,050 times in 3,027 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    Seek detachment.
    The quest to find balance between attachment and disattachment is a life long lesson to some of us. Thank you, Carmody.

  19. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Limor Wolf For This Post:

    blufire (28th August 2013), Carmody (27th August 2013), donk (27th August 2013), Flash (26th August 2013), johnf (26th August 2013), nomadguy (27th August 2013), seko (27th August 2013), ulli (28th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  20. Link to Post #192
    United Arab Emirates Avalon Member mahalall's Avatar
    Join Date
    26th August 2011
    Location
    In a clean desert
    Age
    52
    Posts
    727
    Thanks
    3,394
    Thanked 1,949 times in 591 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    recently had a visionary encounter with an old school yogi-word had got about that he was enlightened, so pilgrims sought his presence. All types of lay people trudged up to his cave to seek his company. When they got there instead of seeing some blissful being-they saw a man in the an extreme tantric position with another person. The folk who had endured climbing the mountain ran down shocked and disgusted at the image they had seen.
    Asked why he had presented himself in such a way (when he clearly had a siddhi of enlightenment through iridolgy) he said it kept them away-

    Without equal pose to our reactions, one wonders has the depth of covert and overt manipulations of our sexual natures been imposed upon us to protect from sight that, that does not want to been seen

  21. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to mahalall For This Post:

    araucaria (28th August 2013), Carmody (27th August 2013), Ernie Nemeth (27th August 2013), johnf (26th August 2013), seko (27th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  22. Link to Post #193
    United States Avalon Member johnf's Avatar
    Join Date
    11th January 2011
    Location
    Oregon, USA
    Posts
    1,211
    Thanks
    8,460
    Thanked 6,363 times in 1,115 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    -------

    Yes, 'wog' is offensive to most people. Whatever the acronym stands for, it implies one is talking about the unenlightened (or underprivileged) from a superior know-it-all viewpoint.

    Even if one is not, that's the impression given. It doesn't help! I don't think I've ever used the word in my life. I hope I haven't.

    I too looked up the Wikipedia article, which was fascinating. What rang true for me was that it originated from the term (in the British Raj) Working On Government Service, but when local people were those doing that work, it quickly (fueled by British colonial arrogance) became associated with a racial put-down.

    I would appreciate it if this was not used on the forum.

    @ Jim! I mean this with the best intentions. You HAVE HAVE HAVE to find effective ways of talking to the many highly intelligent people here, unused to the jargon that you are familiar with. Misunderstandings will inevitably proliferate.

    The use of the term WOG in the COS is an example of a bigger phenomenon where an organization that is supposed to be all about communication, often went completely out of communication with society.
    Doing things that tempt it's members to see themselves as superior to non members,along with the disconnection policies are things that led to it's degradation. From a fairly early point too.

    This is what Scientologists learn as the definition of WOG(from the Technical Dictionary of Dianetics, and Scientology).

    WOG, 1. worthy Oriental gentleman. This means a common ordinary run-ofthe-
    mill garden-variety humanoid. (SH Spec 82, 6611C29) 2 . a w o g i s
    somebody who isn’t even trying. (SH Spec 73, 6608C02)

    I am grateful to see the alternative definitions from other cultural angles above from Bill and Ulli.
    Before we get too judgemental though, I feel compelled to point out the similarities between this term, and the term I have seen a lot on this forum, sheeple.

    That term doesn't really help us around here, and the term WOG, didn't help the Church of Scientology much either.
    In a lot of cases, it is used to distance oneself from the negative emotions(actual pain and perhaps unconsciousness) that come up from seeing the actual state most people,(and mankind in general) are in.

    If we judge, it feels better in the short term, but it also adds to the work we will eventually have to do when we are actually up to the task.

    jf
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

  23. The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to johnf For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (26th August 2013), Billy (27th August 2013), Christine (26th August 2013), Craig (28th August 2013), donk (27th August 2013), Ernie Nemeth (27th August 2013), Fred Steeves (26th August 2013), jiminii (27th August 2013), Kindling (26th August 2013), Limor Wolf (26th August 2013), Mark (26th August 2013), Reinhard (28th August 2013), seko (27th August 2013), shadowstalker (26th August 2013), ulli (28th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  24. Link to Post #194
    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th August 2010
    Location
    Winning The Galactic Lottery
    Posts
    11,389
    Thanks
    17,597
    Thanked 82,316 times in 10,234 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Judgement is a fools game; it locks one into a future based on projection of the self lies of one's own past.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

  25. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Carmody For This Post:

    araucaria (28th August 2013), Christine (28th August 2013), donk (27th August 2013), Ernie Nemeth (27th August 2013), johnf (27th August 2013), Kindling (28th August 2013), mahalall (2nd September 2013), panopticon (27th August 2013), seko (27th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  26. Link to Post #195
    France Avalon Member araucaria's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th January 2011
    Posts
    5,400
    Thanks
    12,061
    Thanked 30,977 times in 5,003 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by turiya (here)
    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    along the way, the one on the journey will be misunderstood by those around them. always.
    i.e. ALL WORDS ARE LIES
    Turiya, you are welcome to turn me off as often as you like by repeating a phrase that I have deconstructed in a negative light, but that doesn’t make it any more valid. I am frankly surprised that you should resort to a method infamously theorized by some highly unsavory politician back in the thirties. I am going to rise to the bait one last time.

    I’m not sure if you have Carmody’s agreement on this point, but if you do, then I will just have to disagree with Carmody here. It would mean he has on his own admission been mendacious thousands of times on this forum. I prefer to think otherwise. But Carmody’s point is that you will always be misunderstood, which is not the same thing at all. And as I pointed out earlier, everything you write too would be a pack of lies, which even the best disinfo is not. (The ultimate disinfo is probably entirely accurate).

    I do agree that language, like all our finite tools, is a treacherous one to use if truth is your aim. But to claim that it precludes any element of truth is so negatively self-defeating that it strikes me as trifling with the forum requirement “to contribute to the positive energy and attitude of the forum”. Such a positive energy and attitude has to mean that we are striving, against the odds, towards some kind of truth.

    If you believe otherwise, then logically you ought to be over to Roman’s thread where he and Paula are replacing New Age truths with post-New Age truths. Logically, you need to be getting threads closed that say things like ‘A different reality can be spoken into existence by us, if we Care enough to learn the Truth, and then develop the Courage and the Will to defend it at all cost’, because according to you the only reality we can speak into existence is all lies.

    Quote Posted by Paula (here)
    New Age Correction #9 @ 6:41:37
    • The truth of the current human condition SHOULD make you feel uncomfortable.
    • Seek the Truth, then... speak the Truth
    • It IS our shared responsibility at this time to help to awaken others by continuously speaking the truth unapologetically, even if we feel burdened by this task, and even if it makes ALL of those involved feel uncomfortable.


    New Age Deceptions #10 @ 6:48:55
    • Truth doesn’t need to be defended...
    • So never confront anyone on their bull****



    New Age Correction #10 @ 6:48:55
    • WE are the vehicles by which Truth operates in the world.
    • This is a BULL**** FREE ZONE we do not apologize for any inconvenience.
    • WE are the vehicles by which Truth operates in the world.
    • The Universe is SPOKEN into existence: It IS true that Truth can NEVER by destroyed. But we CAN be destroyed, when we refuse to be her defender.
    • Never, Ever Give Up. Rage against the dying of the light.
    • A different reality can be spoken into existence by us, if we Care enough to learn the Truth, and then develop the Courage and the Will to defend it at all cost.
    I know I am dwelling on a single sentence of yours; however, the highlighting of this phrase, through both typographical means (fourfold emphasis: bold, italics, capitals, blue) and rhetorical means (repetition) leads to its having an undue influence on the rest of your writing. I feel strongly enough about this to have spent some time on it. I apologize for taking you to task like this, and shall now desist, trusting that you will too.


  27. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to araucaria For This Post:

    Christine (28th August 2013), Mark (27th August 2013), northstar (27th August 2013), Reinhard (28th August 2013), ulli (27th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  28. Link to Post #196
    United States Avalon Member WEAREONE's Avatar
    Join Date
    18th May 2011
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    113
    Thanks
    162
    Thanked 501 times in 81 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Observations.....
    ---Jiminii, your point of this thread was to teach and or educate. However for what reasons I do not know you chose to use an absolutely offensive topic as an example. This is perhaps the most offensive post I have seen on this forum and I have questions and comments.

    Heres a quote from your opening post.
    "You get around gays and their SPACE IS DIRTY, STICKY, and they push their feminism to extreme KNOWING that if bothers people. THEY KNOW it makes people feel weird and awkward and that is why they do it.

    This is also why the GAYS OVER EXAGGERATE THEIR FEMINISM, TO PUT YOUR ATTENTION CONSTANTLY ON THIS BODY FUNCTION CALLED SEX,

    IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE,

    It is like a Vampire WHO can't get enough attention and so they want to trap your thoughts and energy on their weirdness

    therefore, you can not trust GAYS they have perverted sex to use it for CONTROL and their hidden intention is to bring people down below them.

    Since their survival is leaning towards death THEY DO NOT CARE WHO LIVES OR DIES"

    -Wow, that is an amazingly offensive statement to make, THEY DO NOT CARE WHO LIVES OR DIES, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE,-simply amazing to put all gay people into such a negative box. That box should be reserved for the most evil forces in this reality,not for gay people.

    Later in the thread Fred Steeves commented on your post and alludes to this not being the first time you trashed gay people.


    "" Posted by jiminii (here)
    You get around gays and their SPACE IS DIRTY, STICKY,

    Still trashing gay people I see Jim. I sincerely hope this thread stays up for all to see...

    Talk about "Covert Hostility". Get a mirror brother...""

    So it would seem that this is not the first time you posted an offensive statement about gay people, as you did not question or correct Fred Steeves comment.

    Then later you apologize.

    "there are a lot of variables ... I didn't think it when I picked gay ... or know what reaction I would get ...

    I should have said promiscuity that would cover the covert part of both gay and heter ,.. would be more clear

    so sorry about this

    jim"

    then later you continue to apologize

    "I used gay as a reference because it is more easy to see the nature of covert hostile people if I show some of the characteristics that are so obvious.

    but I am not trying to hit GAY as an ONLY. I just used some obvious characteristics of covert hostility using a covert hostile gay as an example.

    there are covert hostile bankers and Heter too in the promiscuity band ...

    so I am sorry if I offended anyone

    jim"

    So with all that heres some questions and concerns. First of all Jiminii, do you really believe what you wrote about Gay people?

    I understand you said sorry but you never really said you don't believe what you said about gay people. It reminds me of certain talk show hosts that can say certain offensive statements and then later the say sorry but they do not really say that they don't believe what they said. Instead they are sorry for having the affect of offending people. Usually peer pressure, bad press, losing advertising dollars etc, forces the apology. And from what I can tell from your posts I get the impression you chose to use Gays as an example because you actually believe those things you wrote, I also think you may have used the topic to raise our tone level to in a sense light a fire.

    I dont really understand how someone with obvious insight and understanding could not use better judgement in trying to educate us. I can not allow myself to excuse your ignorance by allowing you to use the.... oh, well I am new to this reality I am unfamiliar with norms and customs, my intentions are good but I'm literally from another time and place and communication with you is difficult..... Nope, for me that excuse does not work. It is lazy and shows little concern for those who may get hurt along the way. Have some respect for the fellow people you are communicating with. If your not used communicating with us then bounce your ideas off with friends or other trusted members before you post. I would imagine if you had PM people your opening post of this thread you would have gotten a lot of feed back in regards to it being unnecessarily offensive and that it actually distracts and takes away from a worthy discussion.

    PLEASE try to put a little more thought and discernment into your communications with the forum and I imagine the rest of the world you interact with. We are not all knowledgeable of Scientology, some are but most will not understand what you are saying. Take into consideration what your trying to teach and educate and put some effort into trying to understand the best way to get the message across. And lastly, if you do in fact believe what you said about gay people you should probably keep that to your self as most people will find that thinking as hateful, offensive, narrow minded, ignorant, etc etc. Some may agree but keep in mind that the good in your message will not be heard very well. I imagine quite a lot of members and guest didn't get past your first post as it was so horribly offensive and moved on to another thread and missed the valuable information you did share.

  29. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to WEAREONE For This Post:

    Ernie Nemeth (27th August 2013), johnf (27th August 2013), Kindling (28th August 2013), learninglight (27th August 2013), Mark (Star Mariner) (28th August 2013), northstar (28th August 2013), shadowstalker (27th August 2013), silverfish (28th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018), Wind (28th August 2013)

  30. Link to Post #197
    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th January 2011
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    66
    Posts
    5,659
    Thanks
    26,233
    Thanked 36,600 times in 5,379 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    words are placeholders (signs, sigils, approximations) of some observed truth, being twice removed from reality

    so they may not be lies but being mere descriptors of perception, they are far from the truth

    strung together in infinite subsets, they run the gamut of our experiences

    carefully positioned they can cast a shadow of the truth upon the mind of the listener

    and that shadow can illuminate the truth in that mind

    course both of you guys know all that, being artful masters yourselves
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

  31. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Ernie Nemeth For This Post:

    araucaria (28th August 2013), jiminii (28th August 2013), Mark (Star Mariner) (28th August 2013), ulli (28th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  32. Link to Post #198
    France Avalon Member araucaria's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th January 2011
    Posts
    5,400
    Thanks
    12,061
    Thanked 30,977 times in 5,003 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    words are placeholders (signs, sigils, approximations) of some observed truth, being twice removed from reality

    so they may not be lies but being mere descriptors of perception, they are far from the truth

    strung together in infinite subsets, they run the gamut of our experiences

    carefully positioned they can cast a shadow of the truth upon the mind of the listener

    and that shadow can illuminate the truth in that mind

    course both of you guys know all that, being artful masters yourselves
    Words may be removed from the reality they “refer to”. Yet words are in numerous ways a reality in their own right. Their presence is a reality: something said that proverbially cannot be unsaid. Their absence is also a reality: something left unsaid, a silence that proverbially means consent, or a myriad other things.

    As “mere descriptors of perception”, words may well be “far from the truth”. However, they can be other things than that. They may be performative, and the word becomes a deed – e.g. anything beginning with “I hereby” signifies that the saying is the doing. This is why a document is called a deed. Having no external reference, such statements are neither true nor false, they just are. They are many kinds of performative speech acts. The Avalon debate over talking less and acting more overlooks this fact that it is not always a choice between doing or saying.

    Another function, known to linguisticians as “phatic communion”, serves the purpose of social bonding, above, beyond, and occasionally in contradiction to the actual content of any utterance. The extreme (imaginary) example of this is the socialite who tells his smiling company that he has just shot his granny and buried her in the garden, and they respond with the usual platitudes. Whether such statements are true or false is ultimately immaterial, they are either socially effective or not (hence a modicum of honesty usually helps, or alternatively a dose of humor).

    Thirdly (but not last), while “mere descriptors of perception” only denote, words also connote. In other words, not only do they point to some outside reality, they exist notably as a state of mind, an emotional state. Such connotations will be neither true nor false, they will be sincere or insincere depending on whether or not they correspond to a person’s actual state of mind. When we have information to impart, we try to adopt an emotionally neutral state of mind. This information, to adopt a neutral word therefore, will be partly “incorrect”. To call such information “lies” is to interpret the accompanying emotional state as being insincere. Hence the formula “All words are lies” is inexact, because it implies that “All speakers are liars” and presupposes the total absence of honest intent.

    On a forum that claims if nothing else to be an exercise in honesty, it would be more appropriate and more accurate to say that “All words are inadequate descriptors of perception”… and possibly deceptive indicators of state of mind, i.e. examples of covert hostility. I am not nitpicking: this is of the utmost importance, as language is almost all we have here.


  33. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to araucaria For This Post:

    Ernie Nemeth (28th August 2013), northstar (28th August 2013), ulli (28th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

  34. Link to Post #199
    Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    7th December 2010
    Location
    Blaine, Tennessee
    Age
    57
    Posts
    3,386
    Thanks
    21,152
    Thanked 26,963 times in 3,187 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by araucaria (here)
    On a forum that claims if nothing else to be an exercise in honesty, it would be more appropriate and more accurate to say that “All words are inadequate descriptors of perception”…
    I've used the term "all words are lies" myself araucaria, but this is a *much* more accurate description. Thank you for that, because words *do* mean things. And they're all we've got to communicate with on a forum, minus the subtle yet powerful energy behind them.

  35. Link to Post #200
    Finland Avalon Member Ultima Thule's Avatar
    Join Date
    30th January 2011
    Age
    47
    Posts
    875
    Thanks
    2,744
    Thanked 3,265 times in 683 posts

    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    I quote myself:
    There would be less trouble if we didn´t mistake a (part of the) truth for THE whole truth.
    Words are the carrier of this mistake.

    UT

  36. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ultima Thule For This Post:

    CD7 (28th August 2013), Christine (28th August 2013), Ernie Nemeth (28th August 2013), Vernaianawa (12th March 2018)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst 1 10 13 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts