Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

[Bill Ryan]

-------








The Tone of Covert Hostility (sandwiched and very much trapped between the 'Fear' band and the 'Anger' band) is this:

[northstar]

I just spent some time reading the materials at the link posted above. Wow I wish it had been presented this way in the initial post of this thread.
This is the first time I have ever visited a scientology website. All my life I was told that scientology was a dangerous cult so I completely avoided it but this material is quite interesting and makes a lot of sense.
A quick read of these pages (they are short and easy) will give you a good grasp of the tone scale, and where exactly "covert hostility" sits on the tone scale. Read them in order for better comprehension!

http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/SH4_1.HTM The tone scale, quick overview
http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/SH4_2.HTM The tone scale in full, brief explanation
http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/FULL.HTM The tone scale, large full diagram - this is fascinating! If you look at nothing else here, take a quick perusal of this interesting diagram.
http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/SH4_2A.HTM Characteristics on the tone scale
http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/SH4_3.HTM Observing the obvious. Here the author discusses how it is important to train yourself to accurately see what is in front of you.

Reading through this material I am understanding it from my own mental framework. I notice that the tone scale reminds me of something I learned from Abraham Hicks. Esther Hicks talks about a scale of emotion and she teaches that if you can't be happy at least try to get yourself a little closer to it, as that will improve your vibration. If you are angry, a movement toward calmness is an improvement in your vibrational reality, etc. That made a lot of sense to me when I first heard her talk about it but now I wonder if she got the concept from the scientology tone scale.

[Fred Steeves]

The transformation of this thread is giving me a fine chuckle as I sit sipping coffee this beautiful Sunday morning. It very much reminds me of how say, the President, never actually says or does anything wrong. It can and is easily dismissed or explained, so that he is never really held accountable.

Here are a couple of my favorites: "While the President may have spoken inartfully, what he was implying is very important for the American people to understand". Or: "The President possesses brilliant insight into these matters, but is also very nuanced, making it difficult at times in getting his message across to the average voter. What he meant to say was..."

In political circles this is known as "spin", in my circles at least, it's known by the old adage:"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle em with bulls**t".

l fully realize it's improper to point out the emperor's lack of clothing, just noticing a trend is all.

Most of us are obliged to either stand by our words, or retract them. Others, not so much...

[Billy]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------

More on what Covert Hostility is about:

Every con man (or woman!), everyone who's ever tricked you or betrayed you after you trusted them, most people who seem to be very pleasant but 'aren't quite right' and 'you can't put your finger on it', every agenda-driven friendly manipulator -- they're all COVERTLY HOSTILE.

Like a snake. They slither silently in the grass, and you can't see them coming till they bite you. With an angry Momma Bear, you've got a better chance, because you can run, or yell at them as loudly as possible until they run.

People are like that too. When someone's openly ('overtly') angry, you know exactly where you stand. They're actually doing you a favor. Everything is in the open.

But someone in COVERT hostility is too afraid to be angry, and too angry to be afraid. They're caught between the two. So they hide.

Because they hide, and pretend to be something they're not (like supportive, kind and friendly), they can be very sneaky and hard to detect. And very damaging indeed.

Learning how to spot them is as useful as learning to pick out where the snakes are, out in the wilderness, before they crawl into your tent (or, in human terms, crawl into your life).

This is what this thread is about, or should be about. Learning how to spot the silent predators, knowing when to kick someone out of your life (or your business) before they steal everything you have.

Thank you for this explanation Bill.

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
You people that object to real reality are so narrow minded its unbelievable,

you really don't understand what is being said to you,

you are really from another planet, , get it, it is so.


roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
Jim they haven't the faintest what you are talking about, they and I mean you here on this website really are day dreamers, you have a long way to go as yet to really understand. keep on dreaming simple minds

roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
Sounds as you're not widely read enough to say that.

regards

roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

I think Gripreaper we have to move on
roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
at the moment he is way ahead of you my friend.

regards

roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

Posted by billyji (here)
I feel the tone of the OP of this thread is hostile.

Bye.

Peace

Your feeling would be most perfectly wrong, cant handle objectiveness.

regards

roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

Posted by gripreaper (here)

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
Yes exactly that to all my friend. regards roman

Ok, you don't want to clarify, I accept that. What I don't accept is homophobia, or those who want to place themselves above the rest of us because, for some reason, their path is more enlightened, or they perceive awakening as some sort of linear projection and they find themselves further along such a scale, and therefore elevate themselves above the rest of us, and then refuse to clarify or delineate that which they mean for the rest of us.

If we are such "simple minds" with "such a long way to go" then why bother? Why wait for us, or as you say, Jim's understanding of the tone of homosexuals is empathic? really? All things are empathic that you emanate into the matrix Roman, so I should look closer into the energetic tone and timbre of your words and be able to decipher what you mean by using my energy, and therefore, those who cannot "hear you" are somehow just not tuned into the "wavelength" where you and Jim reside and therefore, no need to clarify because it would be pointless to try and clarify for such simple minds? So, we cannot be reached?

Before you go any further, I had juat read your first line, not necessary to read the rest, there is no homophobia here, that's you're take on this, that's why I have said and repeat you don't understand, and you are pointing fingers in ignorance.

Regards

roman

Mirror reflections right enough.

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
I was a lower tone person for 30 years, I was involved with women, that most would never match, listen to what he is saying, and understand, don't judge, don't homophobic, listen, or you will be brought down, its real and it exists.

regards

roman

JUST IN CASE, NO i WAS NOT A PIMP, NOTHING LIKE THAT.

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

The most powerful emotion is sexual Jake, that many suffer with my friend, yes we can just ignore it as everything else, so be it.

Warmest regards Jake

roman

Ah the bliss of celebicy.

Posted by Jake (here)

I would say the most powerful emotion is Love,,, Maybe Fear. When a powerful sexual nature, degrades into hatred, or even dislike, of entire groups of people,, then it is a problem.

I want to make a point. This discussion was started with ugly words to an entire group of amazing people. Do you think it doesn't go unnoticed?


JIm,, if you want to make a point, you will have to do it without trashing Gays..

Jake.

I agree Jake. Thank you

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

I do not engage in the lower frequencies,

Regards

roman

Ah Judgement yes we have to be careful. I rest my case.

Posted by jiminii (here)
there are a lot of variables ... I didn't think it when I picked gay ... or know what reaction I would get ...

I should have said promiscuity that would cover the covert part of both gay and heter ,.. would be more clear

so sorry about this

jim

I appreciate the sorry Jim, but why did you not think or know what reaction you would get before you leaped. The mind boggles.

Lessons on covert hostility to be learned.

peace

[ulli]

Posted by Strat (here)
Hypothetically speaking, if someone were to be covertly hostile/passive aggressive how would they 'fix' this? How would they know this?

Good question. I was in my late twenties when I discovered that I had this tendency,
and had just moved from wholesale to open my first retail shop, which meant meeting the public.
Wholesale meant dealing only with my trusted employees, and some very cool buyers,
all of whom I loved and had a great relationship with,
but when selling directly to the public one meets all kinds of people one might normally never interact with.
And since they were clients of mine I could never really express what I thought or felt about them.
My social circle were also fashion designers...all males, I never had women friends...
and we were always backbiting. It was a way of life, and just as Jim described.
After my awakening at age 28 I saw this for what it was, and started not participating,
as I found it unfulfilling, and that's when quite a few of them turned on me.
I had become spiritual, and was seeing a new world, one in which my own soul survival was at stake.
Before my awakening this had not been an issue, and I was not aware of what I was doing.

Covert hostility is basically backbiting...it is destructive to the fabric of community,
and as such should be avoided at all cost.

[Carmen]

Thanks for putting up the tone chart so I could read it Bill. One thing I have noticed on my spiritual journey is that after much learning, reading, experiencing and applying my emotions are 'even'. Back before I started on my spirit quest outside events would cause me to be "excited" or "downcast". When the emotions are understood and ruled over, the state of contentedness, joy and happiness is a constant. It's an inner thing. The mind is clear and present.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Actually, in his post #103 above, Fred was being covertly hostile.

It's a perfect demonstration. Fred is hostile to and critical of Jim (very much so), but couched it all in cheery, apparently friendly, disguise. That's because it's important to Fred to present himself as a very nice guy. Everything he said in his post was indirect, and covertly a little barbed. This is no crime, but it does have an effect on those reading it.

(Fred, do you see? This doesn't look very good to others. It runs the risk, from your point of view, of making them feel uneasy about your intentions and not trusting your straightforwardness. You'd come over much better if you stated openly how you felt, but in a responsible way. Something like this: )

It seems to me that Jim really messed up in this thread. Then Bill had to come and rescue him from his many faux pas, completely clarifying the original concept. He did that well, and I appreciated it.

I also notice that Bill has himself not been critical of Jim, and is being characteristically positive -- except that he asked Jim to stick to his own topic, which of course he should. I wonder what Bill really thinks, and I would like to know.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------

More on what Covert Hostility is about:

Every con man (or woman!), everyone who's ever tricked you or betrayed you after you trusted them, most people who seem to be very pleasant but 'aren't quite right' and 'you can't put your finger on it', every agenda-driven friendly manipulator -- they're all COVERTLY HOSTILE.

Like a snake. They slither silently in the grass, and you can't see them coming till they bite you. With an angry Momma Bear, you've got a better chance, because you can run, or yell at them as loudly as possible until they run.

People are like that too. When someone's openly ('overtly') angry, you know exactly where you stand. They're actually doing you a favor. Everything is in the open.

But someone in COVERT hostility is too afraid to be angry, and too angry to be afraid. They're caught between the two. So they hide.

Because they hide, and pretend to be something they're not (like supportive, kind and friendly), they can be very sneaky and hard to detect. And very damaging indeed.

Learning how to spot them is as useful as learning to pick out where the snakes are, out in the wilderness, before they crawl into your tent (or, in human terms, crawl into your life).

This is what this thread is about, or should be about. Learning how to spot the silent predators, knowing when to kick someone out of your life (or your business) before they steal everything you have.

All of that is well said, and I thank you Bill. So what this is talking about is basically a 'sociopath'.

What a difference the above description is though, without all the scientology jargon, or the completely unwarranted and unjustified denigration of gay people.. so much of the op was spent there, that it took about 4 pages to even touch on the supposed theme as indicated by the thread title.

[turiya]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------
Actually, in his post #103 above, Fred was being covertly hostile.

It's a perfect demonstration. Fred is hostile to and critical of Jim (very much so), but couched it all in cheery, apparently friendly, disguise. That's because it's important to Fred to present himself as a very nice guy. Everything he said in his post was indirect, and covertly a little barbed. This is no crime, but it does have an effect on those reading it.

(Fred, do you see? This doesn't look very good to others. It runs the risk, from your point of view, of making them feel uneasy about your intentions and not trusting your straightforwardness. You'd come over much better if you stated openly how you felt, but in a responsible way. Something like this: )

It seems to me that Jim really messed up in this thread. Then Bill had to come and rescue him from his many faux pas, completely clarifying the original concept. He did that well, and I appreciated it.

I also notice that Bill has himself not been critical of Jim, and is being characteristically positive -- except that he asked Jim to stick to his own topic, which of course he should. I wonder what Bill really thinks, and I would like to know.

On the contrary, I find Fred's commentary an amusing rise in the level of frequency from what was being demonstrated & felt previously.

Just remember - ALL WORDS ARE LIES -
So, not to worry... and certainly not to be too, too serious about anything anybody is telling...

With all due respect...


turiya

[ROMANWKT]

Posted by billyji (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------

More on what Covert Hostility is about:

Every con man (or woman!), everyone who's ever tricked you or betrayed you after you trusted them, most people who seem to be very pleasant but 'aren't quite right' and 'you can't put your finger on it', every agenda-driven friendly manipulator -- they're all COVERTLY HOSTILE.

Like a snake. They slither silently in the grass, and you can't see them coming till they bite you. With an angry Momma Bear, you've got a better chance, because you can run, or yell at them as loudly as possible until they run.

People are like that too. When someone's openly ('overtly') angry, you know exactly where you stand. They're actually doing you a favor. Everything is in the open.

But someone in COVERT hostility is too afraid to be angry, and too angry to be afraid. They're caught between the two. So they hide.

Because they hide, and pretend to be something they're not (like supportive, kind and friendly), they can be very sneaky and hard to detect. And very damaging indeed.

Learning how to spot them is as useful as learning to pick out where the snakes are, out in the wilderness, before they crawl into your tent (or, in human terms, crawl into your life).

This is what this thread is about, or should be about. Learning how to spot the silent predators, knowing when to kick someone out of your life (or your business) before they steal everything you have.

Thank you for this explanation Bill.

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
You people that object to real reality are so narrow minded its unbelievable,

you really don't understand what is being said to you,

you are really from another planet, , get it, it is so.


roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
Jim they haven't the faintest what you are talking about, they and I mean you here on this website really are day dreamers, you have a long way to go as yet to really understand. keep on dreaming simple minds

roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
Sounds as you're not widely read enough to say that.

regards

roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

I think Gripreaper we have to move on
roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
at the moment he is way ahead of you my friend.

regards

roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

Posted by billyji (here)
I feel the tone of the OP of this thread is hostile.

Bye.

Peace

Your feeling would be most perfectly wrong, cant handle objectiveness.

regards

roman

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

Posted by gripreaper (here)

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
Yes exactly that to all my friend. regards roman

Ok, you don't want to clarify, I accept that. What I don't accept is homophobia, or those who want to place themselves above the rest of us because, for some reason, their path is more enlightened, or they perceive awakening as some sort of linear projection and they find themselves further along such a scale, and therefore elevate themselves above the rest of us, and then refuse to clarify or delineate that which they mean for the rest of us.

If we are such "simple minds" with "such a long way to go" then why bother? Why wait for us, or as you say, Jim's understanding of the tone of homosexuals is empathic? really? All things are empathic that you emanate into the matrix Roman, so I should look closer into the energetic tone and timbre of your words and be able to decipher what you mean by using my energy, and therefore, those who cannot "hear you" are somehow just not tuned into the "wavelength" where you and Jim reside and therefore, no need to clarify because it would be pointless to try and clarify for such simple minds? So, we cannot be reached?

Before you go any further, I had juat read your first line, not necessary to read the rest, there is no homophobia here, that's you're take on this, that's why I have said and repeat you don't understand, and you are pointing fingers in ignorance.

Regards

roman

Mirror reflections right enough.

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
I was a lower tone person for 30 years, I was involved with women, that most would never match, listen to what he is saying, and understand, don't judge, don't homophobic, listen, or you will be brought down, its real and it exists.

regards

roman

JUST IN CASE, NO i WAS NOT A PIMP, NOTHING LIKE THAT.

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

The most powerful emotion is sexual Jake, that many suffer with my friend, yes we can just ignore it as everything else, so be it.

Warmest regards Jake

roman

Ah the bliss of celebicy.

Posted by Jake (here)

I would say the most powerful emotion is Love,,, Maybe Fear. When a powerful sexual nature, degrades into hatred, or even dislike, of entire groups of people,, then it is a problem.

I want to make a point. This discussion was started with ugly words to an entire group of amazing people. Do you think it doesn't go unnoticed?


JIm,, if you want to make a point, you will have to do it without trashing Gays..

Jake.

I agree Jake. Thank you

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)

I do not engage in the lower frequencies,

Regards

roman

Ah Judgement yes we have to be careful. I rest my case.

Posted by jiminii (here)
there are a lot of variables ... I didn't think it when I picked gay ... or know what reaction I would get ...

I should have said promiscuity that would cover the covert part of both gay and heter ,.. would be more clear

so sorry about this

jim

I appreciate the sorry Jim, but why did you not think or know what reaction you would get before you leaped. The mind boggles.

Lessons on covert hostility to be learned.

peace

At the end of the day, understanding is everything, and at the moment, its most defiantly is not here.

Regards

roman

[jiminii]

ernie nemeth
And since I'm at it, how can you be cleared if you had no past to clear? And if they did not clear your future how can you be clear? Just curious.

a clear would be someone that has had his memory erased or if he is natural clear he never created an automatic picture recording memory.
So all those who have come from the beginning to now have trillions of years of these automatic picture recorded memories. These memories contain all the pain in it too and any words that were spoken when he was unconscious could put irrational hypnotic commands in that memory to react irrational to certain situations.

So how can there be a clear by having no past life time. By having no pictures at all and those sent from the future do not have an automatic picture recording memory. The spirit just KNOWS. Only the GE that grows the body we are in has one of these automatic memories.

this body reacts to pictures but the spirit is behind that in serenity. The body feels all the different tone levels but me the spirit is just sitting in the background observing it. I can get angry if I need it to handle a situation. But I am cause over the anger. The anger is not cause over me.

that is the difference.

[ulli]

Posted by Carmen (here)
Thanks for putting up the tone chart so I could read it Bill. One thing I have noticed on my spiritual journey is that after much learning, reading, experiencing and applying my emotions are 'even'. Back before I started on my spirit quest outside events would cause me to be "excited" or "downcast". When the emotions are understood and ruled over, the state of contentedness, joy and happiness is a constant. It's an inner thing. The mind is clear and present.

This post shows me something important about you, namely that you would make a trustworthy friend.
All those who accept responsibility for their own emotions are high up on the tone scale, in my view.
It is not easy to get to such a level...lots of vigilance is needed.

[Atlas]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This tone scale reminds me of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs :

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is often portrayed in the shape of a pyramid with the largest, most fundamental levels of needs at the bottom and the need for self-actualization at the top. While the pyramid has become the de facto way to represent the hierarchy, Maslow himself never used a pyramid to describe these levels in any of his writings on the subject.

Maslow's theory was fully expressed in his 1954 book Motivation and Personality. While the hierarchy remains a very popular framework in sociology research and secondary and higher psychology instruction, it has largely been supplanted by attachment theory in graduate and clinical psychology and psychiatry.

(source: wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslows_hierarchy_of_needs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The above Vitality Tone and Attitude Scale by Stephen J.Cocconi has been influenced by: (among others)

• Abraham Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs,
• the Integrity Tone Scale by Vern Black,

• the E-Scale by L. Ron Hubbard,
• the 3 Meta Attitudes of Loving Communication by Fred Keyser and Heidi Fox,
• Law of Attraction by Abraham-Hicks,
• Levels of Truth by Will Schutz Ph.D, and
• Levels of Consciousness by Dr. David Hawkins

(source: themichaelteaching.com/michael/the-vitality-tone-scale)

[Billy]

Posted by ROMANWKT (here)
At the end of the day, understanding is everything, and at the moment, its most defiantly is not here.

Regards

roman

Thank you for clarifying that Roman. Not to worry, with patience understanding will be forthcoming.


We are allowed a tad of humour, are we not.

[ulli]

Roman, you have seen the big picture, but ought to make some allowances that getting there was a process, for you, too.
Understanding is great, and it trumps knowledge, because knowledge without understanding is like a heavy load that hasn't been distributed properly.
But after understanding there are yet other levels-- wisdom and compassion.
Just saying...

There are divided opinions about what this planet really is....

Is it a school or is it a prison?
Or is it all there is, and then life simply stops when someone dies,
while nothing remains?

Is the self the ONE creator, completely all-knowing, all-wise?
Where would be the room for growth if it were like that?

Jiminii, you really do know how to trigger lots of questions.....

[Carmen]

Yes Ulli, it's being watchful of ones responses. I come from a family and marital background of criticism. It unfortunately becomes imbedded in ones very bones I reckon! To overcome and unlimit the beliefs and attitudes of our upbringing takes attention and self correction but when we do it for long enough the habit dissipates. Realising that everyone is doing their best from their perspective,helps. This thread is interesting to me. Sometimes I interact with people who are lovely on the surface but there is something not quite right, their energy is "off".

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by turiya (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
-------
Actually, in his post #103 above, Fred was being covertly hostile.

It's a perfect demonstration. Fred is hostile to and critical of Jim (very much so), but couched it all in cheery, apparently friendly, disguise. That's because it's important to Fred to present himself as a very nice guy. Everything he said in his post was indirect, and covertly a little barbed. This is no crime, but it does have an effect on those reading it.

(Fred, do you see? This doesn't look very good to others. It runs the risk, from your point of view, of making them feel uneasy about your intentions and not trusting your straightforwardness. You'd come over much better if you stated openly how you felt, but in a responsible way. Something like this: )

It seems to me that Jim really messed up in this thread. Then Bill had to come and rescue him from his many faux pas, completely clarifying the original concept. He did that well, and I appreciated it.

I also notice that Bill has himself not been critical of Jim, and is being characteristically positive -- except that he asked Jim to stick to his own topic, which of course he should. I wonder what Bill really thinks, and I would like to know.

On the contrary, I find Fred's commentary an amusing rise in the level of frequency from what was being demonstrated & felt previously.

Just remember - ALL WORDS ARE LIES -
So, not to worry... and certainly not to be too, too serious about anything anybody is telling...

With all due respect...


turiya

Tbh, I agree with you here. I see why Bill might pigeon-hole Fred's post as 'covertly hostile' (nice label), but you could also call it (if everything must be so labelled) as 'overtly sardonic', in the best possible tradition. And these two labels (the second I just invented), are in my opinion quite different!

Fred's was just a passive observation, an interjection from the periphery, which indeed lightened the tone. And such commentaries, when they come, can in my opinion be quite helpful and healthy sound bites, offering a sometimes much appreciated different slant on things.

[Camilo]

Holy Crap!

[dianna]

Posted by Camilo (here)
Holy Crap!

LOL! Where does that fall on the scale?

[CD7]

I believe I am a covert hostile... I am subject to fits of hostility while observing the world around me...
But then again, idk how covert I am about it so I think Im more of a overt hostile... yes thts it!!!

I think humor cancels out the anger in hostility -1+1= 0 See then your just left with pure white rage