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Thread: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by Limor (here)
    I am sorry, but I'm having trouble with the various concepts in this thread. Personal troubles (My own emotions, my own responsibility etc). Is there a bottom line to all that's been said here? There is quite a lot of 'good' and 'bad' little judgments between the lines, also 'should' or 'shouldn't'..

    Can a covertly hostile person be so 'covert' that he himself wouldn't know it? Astounding YES, in my experience Or is it only the consciously intended hostile person can be put under this definition?Astounding NO, in my experience of passive-agressive and covertly hostile
    In other words, can some of us which have good to normal intentions but carry inner emotions such as unresolved anger, pain or anxiety but don't want to put it on others therefor 'play nice' are considered as having covert hostility? We definitely could, in fact, I think most of us carry covert hostility without being aware of it. We did not land here on earth for no reasons, we do somewhere vibrate with the negative energies

    What can be done about it? awakening to oneself and open admission of whom we are and what we carry, positive AND negative. Getting out the emotional closet, one chakra up from sexual
    I have seen people who were extremely agressive, covertly, everybody around finding them good guys and everybody around getting bitten, in turns. Those are extremely good manipulators, so good, that they convince themselves that they are ok, fine, the great ones.

    80 % of those sick ones do not know they are sick, but about 20% know, Jimini you are wrong, some know - although Limor is not in these, the guilt is there and they are the most dangerous because they do get help into finding ways to manipulate - I have seen more of these in self-help courses, neuroliinguistic courses, spirituality courses than anywhere else. They were going there to get more Tools to manipulate, knowing quite well who they were. But hey, why should they care (I don't care is their motto, I will get what I want, I will use them).

    Some do have bits of guilt, which makes them non psychopaths. When discovered, they blush and want to hide. Some have no guilt, which makes them psychopaths. When discovered, they attack in a merciless way, they want you to disappear.

    Both have very stymied emotions, emotions learned to appear more human like, both know deep down they are not like the average "normal" person.

    Now, this above is a world apart from the regular person who, at times, will be passive-agressive and/or covertly hostile. In this case, it is often repressed emotions, past hurts surfacing, fear waking up, old fears surfacing, etc.

    All these, in regular folks, can be repaired if made conscious and accepted first, then resolved. However, it is often a painful process and many prefer to live half lifes with this discomfort and keep creating havoc instead of going through pain. Are we like the lazier ones? Here is the real question.
    Last edited by Flash; 25th August 2013 at 17:49.

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by gripreaper (here)
    LRH tone scale, being linear, is different than others, such as David Hawkin's or Jenny Wade, Barbara Brennan, etc.

    But, this chart needs to be synonymous with the very transmitter/receiver of the body, the energy body known as the "aura" and the chakras. The idea that there is a negative number on the scale which is below zero does not make sense when you juxtapose the frequencies against the chakras, .
    It does make sense gripreaper if you assume that these scales are corresponding to energy fields that are not body based and chakra based. If you assume that we are greater than our bodies and chakras.

    You are describing here the functioning of the body and etheric fields, which is fine. Other fields however do have an impact on the body and vice versa. Those other fields, at a "higher" end of the Spectrum, could very well push us into the negative. For example, you have - love - then neutral, the absence of love or hatred - then hatred. Love being positive, hatred negative.

    The impact on the body would be to practically stop the functionning of the given effected chakra, the absolute negative for the body being death, anihilation.

    The impact on the energetic being however can be multiple happenings, such as becoming a black magician willingly, or wanting power regardless.

    (I would go as far as saying we are all black magicians at times when not awaken. We create negative énergies, when judging or bitching or having destructive intentions, we send that into the universe and it does resonate with the negative)
    Last edited by Flash; 25th August 2013 at 17:51.

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by billyji (here)
    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)

    covert hostility is between fear and and anger.


    Gays are in the COVERT HOSTILITY range ,.. and to some degree are knife in the back people or attack from the back either with words or other means

    they always make your conversations less than they are and the purpose is to bring your tone level down below them, so they can feel safe



    You get around gays and their SPACE IS DIRTY, STICKY, and they push their feminism to extreme KNOWING that if bothers people. THEY KNOW it makes people feel weird and awkward and that is why they do it.

    This is also why the GAYS OVER EXAGGERATE THEIR FEMINISM, TO PUT YOUR ATTENTION CONSTANTLY ON THIS BODY FUNCTION CALLED SEX,

    IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE,

    It is like a Vampire WHO can't get enough attention and so they want to trap your thoughts and energy on their weirdness

    therefore, you can not trust GAYS they have perverted sex to use it for CONTROL and their hidden intention is to bring people down below them.

    Since their survival is leaning towards death THEY DO NOT CARE WHO LIVES OR DIES. Put them in the News or Politics and they will follow any of these Bankers programs whether it kills everyone or not.

    jim
    Ouch i felt that. That was very painful.

    peace
    t would appear that Jim is the one who is covertly or shall I say overtly hostile. Why do you care, Jim? Don't you realize that we all choose a journey through which we experience our god selves individually and that gender identity is as shallow a pursuit as is anything physical? It just doesn't matter. Much bigger fish to fry. And on a footnote, some of the least sticky, most honorable and best friends I have known have been homosexual. Those rare homosexual males who are angry, hostile and "bitchy" are just not self actualized. They don't like what they have been given and resent it. Can you not exercise a modicum of empathy in the realization that they are fighting their own internal battle and not doing a stellar job of hiding their angst externally? Lack of empathy is the hallmark of sociopathy. We all started as wee babies. We need to start treating each other as such.

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Thank you jim and thank you Flash for the explanation to my question, both your responses, even if contradict each other make sense. Something does not sit well with me about this thread and I am not sure what it is... I guess what I would like to see ( Again judgments, expectations from my side..) is a clearer separation between intentioned covert hostility and non intentioned.

    Also, I feel that this tone scale where emotions are awarded with a score has its own covert message about it -that it is not okay to feel anger, to feel pain or guilt, the desired state is a total bliss. So, is it okay to feel those emotions, is it not? Am I throwing in my own interpretation?

    Another thing -

    Quote Originally posted by Bill Ryan: " there MAY have been a functional correlation in previous generations when homosexual thoughts or feelings were very usually a guilty secret...

    "..This keeping of a huge 'guilty' secret from almost everyone, 24/7, drains spiritual energy big-time and pushes one down the 'tone scale' -- as does any chronic feeling of guilt, whether justified or not."
    Very true, so what could a homosexual men do in the 19 century where they had to keep secrets, otherwise were thrown to jail.. and even today are being judged covertly and being given again and again as a bad example for a human being.. What type of score would they recieve? How can they avoid feeling guilt? . It looks more like this classic case where the individuals need to change themselves in order to fit into society's perceptions of what is or is not natural, instead of society chosing to adopt the 'live and let live unless you are hurting someone else' attitude .

    I think I know why I am tickled. not so much by jim's words such as this -

    "You get around gays and their SPACE IS DIRTY, STICKY"

    But more by the tollerence demonstrated towards such words (I am all for you jim, but not for your specific related words and opinions) and attempt to walk on stragiht line even when something else might be required, and that might be quite similiar to a covert hostility, just the opposite maybe.

    Such words should be denounced
    Last edited by Limor Wolf; 25th August 2013 at 20:25.

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Maybe a story would help here.

    During my time in Los Angeles between 1997 and 2001 in a Primal Therapy group session, there was this young woman who was raped by her father at gunpoint since the time she was five years old. She would sit in the group rocking back and forth, shivering in sweat and fear as she grappled with the energy emerging within her. The therapist would trigger her into anger, which would get the life force energy moving, and she would be encouraged to take this energy of anger “to the wall” (walls were padded) and express her anger towards her father. Once the energy was amplified and focused, before it was fully discharged through anger, the grief would come forth and she would weep so deeply from her core that it would melt every heart in the room. This scene is something that I am reasonably sure 90% of the people out here have never witnessed.

    When she would be “in the moment” of terror and abject grief, and call out to her father “Daddy please don’t, please Daddy I love you” a firing of the cellular DNA memory occurred and a catharsis caused the energy to fully fire within her cells, and you could see the transformation. The connection and release in the catharsis is astounding beyond words to witness. This is just one of many examples.

    What transformation? Everything. Her facial expressions changed, her skin tone, her voice, her hair, her eyes, her walk, her gate, her sight and sounds, the very synapses in her brain rewired, hormones shift, insights flood the brain, beliefs change, past lives emerge, etc. This is how you know you have “burned the dross” and have cleared a memory which could have ten past lives attached to it.

    Was she covertly hostile during many sessions? You bet. Projections are not easily accepted in sessions, once you have told your story a hundred times and the group tires of hearing you tell it again and again. Usually it is the others in the group who busts her for her projections and triggers her into her defensiveness and opens the gate for the catharsis to occur. It takes skill to walk a person into the memory, as everything within our being fights to not go there. There is a saying that: it is the resistance which is painful, not the actual catharsis or the reliving of the memory.

    So, we all hold memories which are aberrations in our lower chakras, blocks in energy, short circuits in the amount and flow of energy, and disconnects from wholeness. No one wants to open up to these, although we claim we want to raise our Kundalini and have full access to all available energies. We all have defenses, use projections, and vampire energy from others. That is the first thing we need to do is go to the mirror and admit and own this truth.

    So, here at Avalon we have, if we want to put us on a scale, most members are relatively clear and have reached the “authentic” stage on Maslow’s scale, or LRH’s, or Wilber’s or Hawkin’s scale, or whomever. I don’t know if LRH audits have the same cathartic effect as a primal, but I’d suspect they do. I know any two people who open and hold a space of trust and compassion, can sit with someone and help them open up to their blocked energies and teach them how not to project it outward onto others. We have all been targets of projected energies of anger, as well as vampired. This we learn to recognize as well.

    During this time while Avalon is attempting to come together and focus energy for the transformation of the collective, and heal the many energetic disconnects, projections and vampirisms we all deal with here on this planet, let us be mindful that, as we focus, amplify, and emanate collectively, our individual crap will and must come up. It’s time to let it come up, open the sacred space for these healings to occur, and offer grace to those who are grappling with their own energy blockages. Let us also be mindful that amplified and focused overt or covert hostility is just as powerful, yet extremely more damaging.

    We can do this. We must do this.
    Last edited by gripreaper; 25th August 2013 at 20:10.
    "Lay Down Your Truth and Check Your Weapons
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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Actually, in his post #103 above, Fred was being covertly hostile.

    It's a perfect demonstration. Fred is hostile to and critical of Jim (very much so), but couched it all in cheery, apparently friendly, disguise. That's because it's important to Fred to present himself as a very nice guy.
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Fred, do you see? This doesn't look very good to others. It runs the risk, from your point of view, of making them feel uneasy about your intentions and not trusting your straightforwardness.
    Well Bill, I'm just going to let my 3,300+ posts over 2 1/2 years speak for themselves. I wear no mask here, I don't talk BS, and I think (most) people can plainly see that.


    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    You'd come over much better if you stated openly how you felt, but in a responsible way. Something like this:

    Quote It seems to me that Jim really messed up in this thread. Then Bill had to come and rescue him from his many faux pas, completely clarifying the original concept. He did that well, and I appreciated it.

    I also notice that Bill has himself not been critical of Jim, and is being characteristically positive -- except that he asked Jim to stick to his own topic, which of course he should. I wonder what Bill really thinks, and I would like to know.
    Thanks, but I'm well able to speak for myself, post coaching services not needed. Besides, you should know me well enough by now, to know I wouldn't write something like that in a million years anyway.
    Last edited by Fred Steeves; 25th August 2013 at 21:27.

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Okay, taking a deep breath here before dipping into these waters. I don't think I can bear to read all the pages... and try as we may the theme of hostility keeps playing out, be it covert or overt this thread abounds in both.

    So another deep breath... the subject of covert hostility is an important one to understand as many members have been subjected to this most nasty energy without even realizing it. And in my opinion there are stages we move through to release ourselves from these effects... the tone scale or any scale only serves us in identifying for ourselves where we are now. Helpful I am sure, more so for some than others.

    We must use our ability to self reflect, I would guess that in most of us there are still shreds of covert hostility.... little whiffs or nuances not yet detected that are geared to provoke some sort of reactionary behavior. However, like gripreaper so eloquently expressed, we here on Avalon have accepted a, shall we call it, sacred charge to demonstrate the wisdom we have occurred throughout this time era.

    Our choice - are we a herald call or a cacophony of discordant tones?

    Third deep breath...

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    I find the ability to deal with critizism lightheartedly most pleasing.

    This is out of How To Choose Your People by Ruth Minshull:
    A high-tone person makes himself understood easily. He’s capable of communicating deeply-felt ideas, but he does so with discrimination. He prefers dealing with constructive facts, rather than destructive ones. While a lower-tone doom salesman is reciting all the shocking news, he will be pointing to the survival activities occurring. He’ll mention a book that will help you make more money. He’ll describe a new development for making sturdier cars. He prefers discussing solutions, rather than clucking about the horribleness of it all.

    He listens to others and understands them easily (provided the communication is understandable and does not exceed his educational level) and he can hear low-tone people without becoming upset, critical or derogatory.

    My son told me about an upscale teacher who periodically gave the students a free discussion period in which they could make suggestions or comments about the class. One day a girl peevishly complained, "I don’t think you let us talk enough."

    Not finding it necessary to argue or defend himself, he replied calmly: "Hmm. I think you’re right. I often talk too much."

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    I found on my journey the need for me to develop the skill of listening. To often I wouldn't really be listening, I'd be busy thinking of what I wanted to say or impatiently waiting to say my bit! When someone is entirely 'present' with you, they are 'faithful'. Also with being present and listening comes an acceptance of what the other is saying, without judgement. When I'm with people like that, my whole being relaxes. When I'm with a critical or judgemental person, my defences are up. We do not get the gift the other person is attempting to impart without making them comfortable and acceptable. Their beingness is honoured by us being 'present'.

    Hmm, I've probably gone right off topic with this post---Sorry!
    Last edited by Carmen; 26th August 2013 at 00:35.

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by Limor (here)
    Thank you jim and thank you Flash for the explanation to my question, both your responses, even if contradict each other make sense. Something does not sit well with me about this thread and I am not sure what it is... I guess what I would like to see ( Again judgments, expectations from my side..) is a clearer separation between intentioned covert hostility and non intentioned.

    Also, I feel that this tone scale where emotions are awarded with a score has its own covert message about it -that it is not okay to feel anger, to feel pain or guilt, the desired state is a total bliss. So, is it okay to feel those emotions, is it not? Am I throwing in my own interpretation?

    Another thing -

    Quote Originally posted by Bill Ryan: " there MAY have been a functional correlation in previous generations when homosexual thoughts or feelings were very usually a guilty secret...

    "..This keeping of a huge 'guilty' secret from almost everyone, 24/7, drains spiritual energy big-time and pushes one down the 'tone scale' -- as does any chronic feeling of guilt, whether justified or not."
    Very true, so what could a homosexual men do in the 19 century where they had to keep secrets, otherwise were thrown to jail.. and even today are being judged covertly and being given again and again as a bad example for a human being.. What type of score would they recieve? How can they avoid feeling guilt? . It looks more like this classic case where the individuals need to change themselves in order to fit into society's perceptions of what is or is not natural, instead of society chosing to adopt the 'live and let live unless you are hurting someone else' attitude .

    I think I know why I am tickled. not so much by jim's words such as this -

    "You get around gays and their SPACE IS DIRTY, STICKY"

    But more by the tollerence demonstrated towards such words (I am all for you jim, but not for your specific related words and opinions) and attempt to walk on stragiht line even when something else might be required, and that might be quite similiar to a covert hostility, just the opposite maybe.

    Such words should be denounced
    we go up and down this scale depending on how much free theta we have. In fact a High tone person can not communicate to a low tone person until he comes down to somewhere that matches the low tone person.

    so here is this child crying and the parent is trying to communicate with the child in enthusiasm and the child just gets louder.

    so you come down to about a half tone above grief in sympathy and the child will start to go in communication. By working half tones above another person's tone level you can raise their tone level up.

    for the covert person he does the opposite. works the tones going down making everyone's conversation less valuable until he caves the person in.

    jim

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    Quote Posted by billyji (here)
    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)

    covert hostility is between fear and and anger.


    Gays are in the COVERT HOSTILITY range ,.. and to some degree are knife in the back people or attack from the back either with words or other means

    they always make your conversations less than they are and the purpose is to bring your tone level down below them, so they can feel safe



    You get around gays and their SPACE IS DIRTY, STICKY, and they push their feminism to extreme KNOWING that if bothers people. THEY KNOW it makes people feel weird and awkward and that is why they do it.

    This is also why the GAYS OVER EXAGGERATE THEIR FEMINISM, TO PUT YOUR ATTENTION CONSTANTLY ON THIS BODY FUNCTION CALLED SEX,

    IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE,

    It is like a Vampire WHO can't get enough attention and so they want to trap your thoughts and energy on their weirdness

    therefore, you can not trust GAYS they have perverted sex to use it for CONTROL and their hidden intention is to bring people down below them.

    Since their survival is leaning towards death THEY DO NOT CARE WHO LIVES OR DIES. Put them in the News or Politics and they will follow any of these Bankers programs whether it kills everyone or not.

    jim
    Ouch i felt that. That was very painful.

    peace
    t would appear that Jim is the one who is covertly or shall I say overtly hostile. Why do you care, Jim? Don't you realize that we all choose a journey through which we experience our god selves individually and that gender identity is as shallow a pursuit as is anything physical? It just doesn't matter. Much bigger fish to fry. And on a footnote, some of the least sticky, most honorable and best friends I have known have been homosexual. Those rare homosexual males who are angry, hostile and "bitchy" are just not self actualized. They don't like what they have been given and resent it. Can you not exercise a modicum of empathy in the realization that they are fighting their own internal battle and not doing a stellar job of hiding their angst externally? Lack of empathy is the hallmark of sociopathy. We all started as wee babies. We need to start treating each other as such.
    covert hostility is a tone. when you go up tone you will go through this tone. when you go down tone you will go through this tone.

    I am not talking about Homosexuals or heterosexuals who are somewhere around this tone either above this tone level or below it.

    I am talking about the 2 and a half percent of the world who use this tone to suppress people

    they deliberately use this tone to suppress. that is a difference between someone who just happens to be covert hostile once in a while.

    these 2 and a half percent would be like rockefeller the rothchilds obama ... they are the dangerous 2 and a half percent that use covert hostility as a way of operation to try to take over and enslave the people of the planet.

    jim

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)

    covert hostility is between fear and and anger.


    covert hostility is a tone. when you go up tone you will go through this tone. when you go down tone you will go through this tone.

    I am not talking about Homosexuals or heterosexuals who are somewhere around this tone either above this tone level or below it.

    I am talking about the 2 and a half percent of the world who use this tone to suppress people

    they deliberately use this tone to suppress. that is a difference between someone who just happens to be covert hostile once in a while.

    these 2 and a half percent would be like rockefeller the rothchilds obama ... they are the dangerous 2 and a half percent that use covert hostility as a way of operation to try to take over and enslave the people of the planet.

    jim
    Very interesting concept, Jimini and I kind of agree with it, but we may be using a different vocabulary for it. Would you be kind enough to explain to me the following:

    1. A definition of what tones are in terms of emotionality, mental, whatever comes to you.
    2. A description of how it is used for suppresson, deliberately and not
    3. The covert hostility used by the 21/2 %: how would you describe their way of operation using it. From A to Z if possible (an example).
    4. How is it related to the Free Theta? (if I remember what is a Free Theta, not sure)
    5. Please explain further half tones.
    6. Why would going down tones make the conversation less valuable? And makes the person cave in?
    Quote for the covert person he does the opposite. works the tones going down making everyone's conversation less valuable until he caves the person in.
    Good homework to do hey . Many thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Flash; 26th August 2013 at 03:17.

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    I have a few questions for Jiminii too..

    1. When you came back from the future, did you run into Marty McFly?

    2. Did Biff get the almanac before or after the last timeline shift?

    3. Was Marty's mother actually his girlfriend in a previous life, and did he have sex with her, knowing that this was to be his mother in another life?

    4. Did Doc Brown know you and Ron Hubbard were going to come back from the future and save planet earth from the Archon's, or did he not get that memo?

    5. Why did Marty and Doc use the lightening strike of the clock tower to get enough gigabites to run the flux capacitor, when the black ops of zero point energy had already been developed, and they could have just set the DeLorean to Montauk in the 30's or Area 51 in the forties and then they wouldn't have needed banana peels?

    How's that for overt hostile?
    Last edited by gripreaper; 26th August 2013 at 02:18.
    "Lay Down Your Truth and Check Your Weapons
    The Next Voice You Hear Will Be Your OWN"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhS69C1tr0w

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    I do not know to whom you overt hostility is directed to, me of Jimini??? Since you used my questioning format.

    But I had a good laugh.

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by gripreaper (here)
    I have a few questions for Jiminii too..

    1. When you came back from the future, did you run into Marty McFly?

    2. Did Biff get the almanac before or after the last timeline shift?

    3. Was Marty's mother actually his girlfriend in a previous life, and did he have sex with her, knowing that this was to be his mother in another life?

    4. Did Doc Brown know you and Ron Hubbard were going to come back from the future and save planet earth from the Archon's, or did he not get that memo?

    5. Why did Marty and Doc use the lightening strike of the clock tower to get enough gigabites to run the flux capacitor, when the black ops of zero point energy had already been developed, and they could have just set the DeLorean to Montauk in the 30's or Area 51 in the forties and then they wouldn't have needed banana peels?

    How's that for overt hostile?
    I had mc fly quarantined from going any further than is days in the old west, (didn't need that s*** anymore), so he just keeps doing a rerun of that lifetime, (hope he gets it right some day).

    bif got lost inside the almanac itself and has never returned, ( i think he is having troubles reading before history stuff).

    marty's mother is a time traveling adultress that marty never learned about it until way into the future by then he found out that it was she that seduced him knowing she would be his mother.

    doc brown never knew that since is was a highly top secret operation

    they should have just used their powers, (but I think they forgot them when they made the first leap)

    jim

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)

    covert hostility is between fear and and anger.


    covert hostility is a tone. when you go up tone you will go through this tone. when you go down tone you will go through this tone.

    I am not talking about Homosexuals or heterosexuals who are somewhere around this tone either above this tone level or below it.

    I am talking about the 2 and a half percent of the world who use this tone to suppress people

    they deliberately use this tone to suppress. that is a difference between someone who just happens to be covert hostile once in a while.

    these 2 and a half percent would be like rockefeller the rothchilds obama ... they are the dangerous 2 and a half percent that use covert hostility as a way of operation to try to take over and enslave the people of the planet.

    jim
    Very interesting concept, Jimini and I kind of agree with it, but we may be using a different vocabulary for it. Would you be kind enough to explain to me the following:

    1. A definition of what tones are in terms of emotionality, mental, whatever comes to you.
    2. A description of how it is used for suppresson, deliberately and not
    3. The covert hostility used by the 21/2 %: how would you describe their way of operation using it. From A to Z if possible (an example).
    4. How is it related to the Free Theta? (if I remember what is a Free Theta, not sure)
    5. Please explain further half tones.
    6. Why would going down tones make the conversation less valuable? And makes the person cave in?
    Quote for the covert person he does the opposite. works the tones going down making everyone's conversation less valuable until he caves the person in.
    Good homework to do hey . Many thanks in advance.
    From Introduction to Ethics by LRH
    in the Freezone download you can get from one of bill's links

    Quote THE ANTI-SOCIAL PERSONALITY
    THE ANTI-SCIENTOLOGIST
    There are certain characteristics and mental attitudes which cause about 20% of a race to oppose violently any betterment activity or group.
    Such people are known to have anti-social tendencies.
    When the legal or political structure of a country becomes such as to favor such per-sonalities in positions of trust, then all the civilizing organizations of the country become sup-pressed and a barbarism of criminality and economic duress ensues.
    Crime and criminal acts are perpetuated by anti-social personalities. Inmates of institu-tions commonly trace their state back to contact with such personalities.
    Thus, in the fields of government, police activities and mental health, to name a few, we see that it is important to be able to detect and isolate this personality type so as to protect society and individuals from the destructive consequences attendant upon letting such have free rein to injure others.
    As they only comprise 20% of the population and as only 2½% of this 20% are truly dangerous, we see that with a very small amount of effort we could considerably better the state of society.
    Well-known, even stellar, examples of such a personality are, of course, Napoleon and Hitler, Dillinger, Pretty Boy Floyd, Christie and other famous criminals were well-known ex-amples of the anti-social personality. But with such a cast of characters in history we neglect the less stellar examples and do not perceive that such personalities exist in current life, very common, often undetected.
    When we trace the cause of a failing business, we will inevitably discover somewhere in its ranks the anti-social personality hard at work.
    In families which are breaking up we commonly find one or the other of the persons involved to have such a personality.
    Where life has become rough and is failing, a careful review of the area by a trained observer will detect one or more such personalities at work.
    As there are 80% of us trying to get along and only 20% trying to prevent us, our lives would be much easier to live were we well-informed as to the exact manifestations of such a personality. Thus we could detect it and save ourselves much failure and heartbreak.
    It is important then to examine and list the attributes of the anti-social personality. In-fluencing as it does the daily lives of so many, it well behooves decent people to become bet-ter informed on this subject.
    ATTRIBUTES
    The anti-social personality has the following attributes:
    1. He or she speaks only in very broad generalities. ”They say…” ”Everybody thinks…” ”Everyone knows…” and such expressions are in continual use, particularly when im-parting rumor. When asked, ”Who is everybody . . .” it normally turns out to be one source and from this source the anti-social person has manufactured what he or she pretends is the whole opinion of the whole society.
    This is natural to them since to them all society is a large hostile generality, against the anti-social in particular.
    2. Such a person deals mainly in bad news, critical or hostile remarks, invalidation and general suppression.
    ”Gossip” or ”harbinger of evil tidings” or ”rumormonger” once described such persons.
    It is notable that there is no good news or complimentary remark passed on by such a person.
    3. The anti-social personality alters, to worsen, communication when he or she relays a message or news. Good news is stopped and only bad news, often embellished, is passed along.
    Such a person also pretends to pass on ”bad news” which is in actual fact invented.
    4. A characteristic, and one of the sad things about an anti-social personality, is that it does not respond to treatment or reform or psychotherapy.
    5. Surrounding such a personality we find cowed or ill associates or friends who, when not driven actually insane, are yet behaving in a crippled manner in life, failing, not succeeding.
    Such people make trouble for others.
    When treated or educated, the near associate of the anti-social personality has no sta-bility of gain but promptly relapses or loses his advantages of knowledge, being under the suppressive influence of the other.
    Physically treated, such associates commonly do not recover in the expected time but worsen and have poor convalescence’s.
    It is quite useless to treat or help or train such persons so long as they remain under the influence of the anti-social connection.
    The largest number of insane are insane because of such anti-social connections and do not recover easily for the same reason.
    Unjustly we seldom see the anti-social personality actually in an institution. Only his ”friends” and family are there.
    6. The anti-social personality habitually selects the wrong target.
    If a tyre is flat from driving over nails, he or she curses a companion or a non-causative source of the trouble. If the radio next door is too loud, he or she kicks the cat.
    If A is the obvious cause, the anti-social personality inevitably blames B, or C or D.
    7. The anti-social cannot finish a cycle of action.
    Such become surrounded with incomplete projects.
    8. Many anti-social persons will freely confess to the most alarming crimes when forced to do so, but will have no faintest sense of responsibility for them.
    Their actions have little or nothing to do with their own volition. Things ”just hap-pened”.
    They have no sense of correct causation and particularly cannot feel any sense of re-morse or shame therefore.
    9. The anti-social personality supports only destructive groups and rages against and at-tacks any constructive or betterment group.
    10. This type of personality approves only of destructive actions and fights against con-structive or helpful actions or activities.
    The artist in particular is often found as a magnet for persons with anti-social personal-ities who see in his art something which must be destroyed and covertly, ”as a friend”, proceed to try.
    11. Helping others is an activity which drives the anti-social personality nearly berserk. Activities, however, which destroy in the name of help are closely supported.
    12. The anti-social personality has a bad sense of property and conceives that the idea that anyone owns anything is a pretense made up to fool people. Nothing is ever really owned.
    THE BASIC REASON
    The basic reason the anti-social personality behaves as he or she does lies in a hidden terror of others.
    To such a person every other being is an enemy, an enemy to be covertly or overtly de-stroyed.
    The fixation is that survival itself depends on ”keeping others down” or ”keeping peo-ple ignorant”.
    If anyone were to promise to make others stronger or brighter, the anti-social personal-ity suffers the utmost agony of personal danger.
    They reason that if they are in this much trouble with people around them weak or stu-pid, they would perish should anyone become strong or bright.
    Such a person has no trust to a point of terror. This is usually masked and unrevealed.
    When such a personality goes insane the world is full of Martians or the FBI and each person met is really a Martian or FBI agent.
    But the bulk of such people exhibit no outward signs of insanity. They appear quite ra-tional. They can be very convincing.
    However, the list given above consists of things which such a personality cannot detect in himself or herself. This is so true that if you thought you found yourself in one of the above, you most certainly are not anti-social. Self-criticism is a luxury the anti-social cannot afford. They must be RIGHT because they are in continual danger in their own estimation. If you proved one WRONG, you might even send him or her into a severe illness.
    Only the sane, well-balanced person tries to correct his conduct.

    RELIEF
    If you were to weed out of your past by proper search and discovery those anti-social persons you have known and if you then disconnected, you might experience great relief.
    Similarly, if society were to recognize this personality type as a sick being as they now isolate people with smallpox, both social and economic recoveries could occur.
    Things are not likely to get much better so long as 20% of the population is permitted to dominate and injure the lives and enterprise of the remaining 80%.
    As majority rule is the political manner of the day, so should majority sanity express itself in our daily lives without the interference and destruction of the socially unwell.
    The pity of it is, they will not permit themselves to be helped and would not respond to treatment if help were attempted.
    An understanding and ability to recognize such personalities could bring a major change in society and our lives.
    THE SOCIAL PERSONALITY
    Man in his anxieties is prone to witch hunts.
    All one has to do is designate ”people wearing black caps” as the villains and one can start a slaughter of people in black caps.
    This characteristic makes it very easy for the anti-social personality to bring about a chaotic or dangerous environment.
    Man is not naturally brave or calm in his human state. And he is not necessarily vil-lainous.
    Even the anti-social personality, in his warped way, is quite certain that he is acting for the best and commonly sees himself as the only good person around, doing all for the good of everyone – the only flaw in his reasoning being that if one kills everyone else, none are left to be protected from the imagined evils. His conduct in his environment and toward his fellows is the only method of detecting either the antisocial or the social personalities. Their motives for self are similar – self-preservation and survival. They simply go about achieving these in different ways.
    Thus, as Man is naturally neither calm nor brave, anyone to some degree tends to be alert to dangerous persons and hence, witch hunts can begin.
    It is therefore even more important to identify the social personality than the anti-social personality. One then avoids shooting the innocent out of mere prejudice or dislike or because of some momentary misconduct.
    The social personality can be defined most easily by comparison with his opposite, the anti-social personality.
    This differentiation is easily done and no test should ever be constructed which iso-lates only the anti-social. On the same test must appear the upper as well as lower ranges of Man’s actions.
    A test that declares only anti-social personalities without also being able to identify the social personality would be itself a suppressive test. It would be like answering ”Yes” or ”No” to the question ”Do you still beat your wife?” Anyone who took it could be found guilty. While this mechanism might have suited the times of the Inquisition, it would not suit modern needs.
    As the society runs, prospers and lives solely through the efforts of social personalities, one must know them as they, not the anti-social, are the worthwhile people. These are the people who must have rights and freedom. Attention is given to the antisocial solely to protect and assist the social personalities in the society.
    All majority rules, civilizing intentions and even the human race will fail unless one can identify and thwart the anti-social personalities and help and forward the social personalities in the society. For the very word ”society” implies social conduct and without it there is no society at all, only a barbarism with all men, good or bad, at risk.
    The frailty of showing how the harmful people can be known is that these then apply the characteristics to decent people to get them hunted down and eradicated.
    The swan song of every great civilization is the tune played by arrows, axes or bullets used by the anti-social to slay the last decent men.
    Government is only dangerous when it can be employed by and for anti-social person-alities. The end result is the eradication of all social personalities and the resultant collapse of Egypt, Babylon, Rome, Russia or the West.
    You will note in the characteristics of the anti-social personality that intelligence is not a clue to the anti-social. They are bright or stupid or average. Thus those who are extremely intelligent can rise to considerable, even head-of-state heights.
    Importance and ability or wish to rise above others are likewise not indexes to the anti-social. When they do become important or rise they are, however, rather visible by the broad consequences of their acts. But they are as likely to be unimportant people or hold very lowly stations and wish for nothing better.
    Thus it is the twelve given characteristics alone which identify the anti-social personal-ity. And these same twelve reversed are the sole criteria of the social personality if one wishes to be truthful about them.
    The identification or labeling of an anti-social personality cannot be done honestly and accurately unless one also, in the same examination of the person, reviews the positive side of his life.
    All persons under stress can react with momentary flashes of anti-social conduct. This does not make them anti-social personalities.
    The true anti-social person has a majority of anti-social characteristics.
    The social personality has a majority of social characteristics.
    Thus one must examine the good with the bad before one can truly label the anti-social or the social.
    In reviewing such matters, very broad testimony and evidence are best. One or two isolated instances determine nothing. One should search all twelve social and all twelve anti-social characteristics and decide on the basis of actual evidence, not opinion.
    The twelve primary characteristics of the social personality are as follows:
    1. The social personality is specific in relating circumstances. ”Joe Jones said…” ”The Star Newspaper reported…” and gives sources of data where important or possible.
    He may use the generality of ”they” or ”people” but seldom in connection with attrib-uting statements or opinions of an alarming nature.
    2. The social personality is eager to relay good news and reluctant to relay bad.
    He may not even bother to pass along criticism when it doesn’t matter.
    He is more interested in making another feel liked or wanted than disliked by others and tends to err toward reassurance rather than toward criticism.
    3. A social personality passes communication without much alteration and if deleting anything tends to delete injurious matters.
    He does not like to hurt people’s feelings. He sometimes errs in holding back bad news or orders which seem critical or harsh.
    4. Treatment, reform and psychotherapy particularly of a mild nature work very well on the social personality.
    Whereas anti-social people sometimes promise to reform, they do not. Only the social personality can change or improve easily.
    It is often enough to point out unwanted conduct to a social personality to completely alter it for the better.
    Criminal codes and violent punishment are not needed to regulate social personalities.
    5. The friends and associates of a social personality tend to be well, happy and of good morale.
    A truly social personality quite often produces betterment in health or fortune by his mere presence on the scene.
    At the very least he does not reduce the existing levels of health or morale in his asso-ciates.
    When ill, the social personality heals or recovers in an expected manner, and is found open to successful treatment.
    6. The social personality tends to select correct targets for correction. He fixes the tyre that is flat rather than attack the windscreen. In the mechanical arts he can therefore repair things and make them work.
    7. Cycles of action begun are ordinarily completed by the social personality, if possible.
    8. The social personality is ashamed of his misdeeds and reluctant to confess them. He takes responsibility for his errors.
    9. The social personality supports constructive groups and tends to protest or resist de-structive groups.
    10. Destructive actions are protested by the social personality. He assists constructive or helpful actions.
    11. The social personality helps others and actively resists acts which harm others.
    12. Property is property of someone to the social personality and its theft or misuse is pre-vented or frowned upon.
    THE BASIC MOTIVATION
    The social personality naturally operates on the basis of the greatest good.
    He is not haunted by imagined enemies but he does recognize real enemies when they exist.
    The social personality wants to survive and wants others to survive, whereas the anti-social personality really and covertly wants others to succumb.
    Basically the social personality wants others to be happy and do well, whereas the anti-social personality is very clever in making others do very badly indeed.
    A basic clue to the social personality is not really his successes but his motivations. The social personality when successful is often a target for the anti-social and by this reason he may fail. But his intentions included others in his success, whereas the anti-social only ap-preciate the doom of others.
    Unless we can detect the social personality and hold him safe from undue restraint and detect also the anti-social and restrain him, our society will go on suffering from insanity, criminality and war, and Man and civilization will not endure.
    Of all our technical skills, such differentiation ranks the highest since, failing, no other skill can continue, as the base on which it operates – civilization – will not be here to continue it.
    Do not smash the social personality – and do not fail to render powerless the anti-social in their efforts to harm the rest of us.
    Just because a man rises above his fellows or takes an important part does not make him an anti-social personality. Just because a man can control or dominate others does not make him an anti-social personality.
    It is his motives in doing so and the consequences of his acts which distinguish the an-ti-social from the social.
    Unless we realize and apply the true characteristics of the two types of personality, we will continue to live in a quandary of who our enemies are and, in doing so, victimize our friends.
    All men have committed acts of violence or omission for which they could be cen-sured. In all Mankind there is not one single perfect human being.
    But there are those who try to do right and those who specialize in wrong and upon these facts and characteristics you can know them.
    Last edited by jiminii; 26th August 2013 at 04:22.

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    Australia Avalon Member panopticon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Hi Jim,
    Can you please supply sources for quoted (copy pasted) information in future and use the quote box (or some other way of designation) to show when and what you are quoting from a source.
    Just saves me looking for where the information came from so as to assist me in my review and analysis of presented material.

    The above is possibly quoted from:
    http://www.scientologycourses.org/co...rsonality.html
    http://www.scientologycourses.org/co...rsonality.html

    I am unsure how it related to Flash's question in regards to tone etc.
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    Hi Jim,
    Can you please supply sources for quoted (copy pasted) information in future and use the quote box (or some other way of designation) to show when and what you are quoting from a source.
    Just saves me looking for where the information came from so as to assist me in my review and analysis of presented material.

    The above is possibly quoted from:
    http://www.scientologycourses.org/co...rsonality.html
    http://www.scientologycourses.org/co...rsonality.html

    I am unsure how it related to Flash's question in regards to tone etc.
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    comes from download from Bill Ryan's someplace. The Free zone or ron's org stuff.
    it is "introduction to ethics doc

    jim

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)
    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    Hi Jim,
    Can you please supply sources for quoted (copy pasted) information in future and use the quote box (or some other way of designation) to show when and what you are quoting from a source.
    Just saves me looking for where the information came from so as to assist me in my review and analysis of presented material.

    The above is possibly quoted from:
    http://www.scientologycourses.org/co...rsonality.html
    http://www.scientologycourses.org/co...rsonality.html

    I am unsure how it related to Flash's question in regards to tone etc.
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    comes from download from Bill Ryan's someplace. The Free zone or ron's org stuff.
    it is "introduction to ethics doc
    jim
    Thanks for the clarification.
    Again, can you please show in your posts when you are quoting so I know they are not your words but that of another.

    -- Pan
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: Covert Hostility... the Tone Level... WHAT IT IS

    It just boggles my mind how well adjusted most of you are here -- even to the extent that you have group therapy sessions, like what this thread is like, to hammer out whatever issues you all are dealing with at any given time.

    In my view, most people here seem to be modeling after Bill, Christine and a few others who have a much more gentle approach when articulating their opposing view on something and it's clear to me that they have much practice doing that too.

    But for those who are not used to using that kind of approach in those kind of situations, when they attempt to try Bill's way of doing it, they come off sounding passive-aggressive! There are differences in how different nationalities express themselves and most Americans are not especially skilled like those from the United Kingdom are, for example, when it comes to using that gentle and more oblique approach that he uses. And don't even get me started with the Japanese because they are much, much more oblique than any of us.




    I could be wrong about all of this but these are just my own observations and nothing more.

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