Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

[lunaflare]

Hey Akasha, why was the Human Carnivore Myth thread closed (in your opinion);
Animal products are very high in cholesterol for us humanoids...oh and not the "good" kind!

[Akasha]

Posted by lunaflare (here)
Hey Akasha, why was the Human Carnivore Myth thread closed (in your opinion);

Hi lunaflare, I don't think it would be appropriate to answer that question on this thread although I will say that threads of this nature are particularly easy to derail because when one poster is inflammatory or goes off topic, a reactionary response will generally just result in the thread going further off topic still. Posts of that nature are much better handled with a simple post rather than a diametrically opposed reaction.

Now.......

[Akasha]

Guy walks into a McDonalds and shows kids slaughterhouse footage.....





.....sorry if you were waiting for a punchline.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=veqdm5zbggQ

[AutumnW]

Posted by mischief (here)
I still eat meat, very little, but I do.
I buy only from a local farmer, who I know personally, and know how he treats his animals and the land they live on.
I know these are killed very quickly and humanely, do not travel in stuffy trucks to fear reeking slaughterhouses, but removed to the local butchers shop only after they are shot.
I understand others will still find this abhorent, but having tried a vegetarian diet, I got sick and had to stop.
Perhaps I didnt do it right somehow.
Currently, I am trying to turn our backyard into a garden in the hopes of providing all our food and have started looking at how I can replace our protein from meat to veg.Meanwhile, I try to eat as little meat as I can in order to wean myself off it, physically and mentally.

I can't go vegetarian either. Too many food allergies. Meat is one of the few things I can tolerate without getting migraines. Bummer. I do most of the things you do though. A few weeks ago, my sister-in-law, (a vegetarian) and I were talking and I told her that if I had a hobby farm and raised my own chickens for meat, I wouldn't be able to kill them, if I had a relationship with them--no matter how humane the method, unless I was starving. This launched a tirade of, 'What difference does it make. You're going to eat them anyway!" A valid point, I guess. However...I wouldn't want their last moments or even milliseconds of life to be of someone they might consider their mother, hurting them in any way. Call me crazy!

This is a divisive topic and a necessary one. If you are going to eat meat, do it consciously.

[Akasha]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
...I wouldn't want their last moments or even milliseconds of life to be of someone they might consider their mother, hurting them in any way. Call me crazy!

Thanks for your honesty, AutumnW. I certainly wouldn't label you as crazy for sharing such thoughts. The cognitive dissonance that is at play in this situation is fundamentally linked to our core values. It's just that we are taught from day one (unless you had vegan parents) to eat meat. In most cases it isn't until children are older that they make the link between the cute furry/feathery animals in their children's books and what's on their plate, by which time the synapses are well established to the point that logical fallacies will be utilised to perpetuate the connection.

The following presentation by qualified psychologist and author, Melanie Joy, explains the thought processes at play and the reasons/excuses for them as well as offering thoughtful alternatives to the dilemma.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7vWbV9FPo_Q

Posted by AutumnW (here)
This is a divisive topic

True.

Posted by AutumnW (here)
and a necessary one.

Very true!

It's with your above comments that I am making every effort to maintain decorum within this thread for as long as it remains "alive".

[Akasha]

Here's a quote by Wade Frasier,from his very poignant essay, A Vegetarian's Journey, reiterating the sentiments of this thread:

Humanity’s murderous ways are directly related to its carnivorous ways.

Wade Frasier

[RMorgan]

Yeah, mate...Being a vegetarian for all these years, I always think about that.

I guess there are a lot of variables involved in this situation...I mean, behind the eating meat thing.

I have nothing against eating meat, if the eater really knows what's he doing...In fact, I admire the hunting lifestyle, you know, the guy who picks up his bow and arrow, go to the woods and hunt. The animal has several perceptive advantages over a human being, and if the hunter manages to kill something, it's because he earned it. A hunter works within the laws of nature, which are ruthless.

What I really can't accept is the average Joe who buys meat at the supermarket like it was a fruit or bread...Most people know about the cruelty involved in the meat industry; It's not a secret. However, they simply choose to ignore it...Choosing ignorance is one of many things that, in my opinion, constitute the metaphorical act of "selling your soul to the devil".

Anyway, being vegetarian is a personal choice, and I'm all for making choices, as long as people know what they are doing...There are lot of vegetarians that don't know what they're doing as well; They become vegetarians for a lot of reasons, like becoming vegetarians because their religion says this is the way to go (indoctrination), or following a trend (fashion)...

In my opinion, the most important thing is awareness...Most people simply live on auto-pilot mode, never really aware of what they're doing...This is the real problem.

If everybody was really aware ( I mean really aware) of what happens during the whole process that happens until they can eat their succulent burgers, I'm sure a lot would become vegetarians, some would decide to eat less meat, some others would demand a serious change in the meat industry...I'm ok with all of that, as long as people are aware and thinking about things.

Now, if people choose to be ignorant regarding this issue, to turn their faces to the other side, then it's serious, because ignorance is not a button that you can turn on and off only in certain portions of your consciousness...When you choose ignorance, it takes over your whole mind.

So, in my opinion, the violent way we treat each other is not a consequence of the act of eating meat itself, but a consequence of choosing to ignore, a consequence of living an auto-pilot life...The root of this problem is much more complicated.

This whole thing is so old, I mean, look at the old testament as a reference of how old it is...God tells Adam not to eat the damn fruit...Adam simply chooses to ignore God (Who in his sane mind would ignore a direct advice from God himself?)...I'm not religious at all, in fact, I'm an atheist; I'm just using the bible as a reference of how old this "choose to ignore" thing is.

Raf.

[Akasha]

Continued from here where the dialogue was getting off topic.

Posted by onawah (here)
I've seen too many vegans whose health has fallen apart due to the restrictions of their chosen diet.

If that is true, it's because they chose to restrict their vegan diet, not because they simply went vegan.

Posted by onawah (here)
Compassion is a wonderful quality, but one has to have compassion for one's self as well.

If the principle of non-violence is not absolute, it's not a principle.

Posted by onawah (here)
I've seen a lot of judgmental self-righteous vegan fanatics over the years, have even been one myself, but I've stopped being so judgmental.

My judgement of you carries no punishment. Your judgement of the chicken as food sentences it to death.

Posted by onawah (here)
Resorting to name calling to get others to bow to my supposed superiority is not at all convincing, IMHO, quite the contrary.

Not sure where the name-calling accusations come from but never mind. Kind of ironic that you're calling me a name-caller though.

It doesn't bother me wether I'm perceived as convincing or not, rather that I state the truth, especially on issues of violation.

Posted by onawah (here)
I certainly do think killing unnecessarily is wrong, as is causing unnecessary suffering.

Glad to here it. When is it ever really necessary if one removes service to self situations?

Posted by onawah (here)
I look forward both to a world where people are no longer in judgement of each other and where killing is entirely a thing of the past.

Change starts with us, from within and ideally, now. That's why I'm doing it. Why not join me?

Posted by onawah (here)
I don't think it's that far off, but it will come much sooner when we stop judging each other, and look instead to see what we can improve in ourselves.

Are you saying that the sooner vegans stop trying to alleviate the suffering of animals by shouting the injustice from the rooftops, the sooner we'll all go vegan???

As I see it, the suffering which the human race continues to undergo is directly related to the suffering it meets out on animals whilst under the illusion that there is no effect, physical or energetic, from such actions, ergo, I am and continue to be affected directly and very negatively by other's choices on this issue, choices that could be different, particularly when made by those who would otherwise be compassionate, loving individuals.

[Referee]

This has always been a fundamental Law for me. I just knew it inherently. No one had to tell me I told many others in my Life and dedicated my life's work to it.

[onawah]

I am under no illusions about the seriousness, the extent or the ramifications of this issue.
But how my eating meat might affect you is entirely up to you.
If you choose to be affected by it, that is your decision.

I have loved animals dearly all my life, and I feel great compassion for them.
I could easily have become an extremist animal activist.
It made me crazy to think about the needless suffering of innocent animals at the hands of ignorant and uncaring humans, and also to think of wild predators hurting and killing other wild animals, especially the young.
It makes me crazy still if I dwell on it, but dwelling on it does neither me nor the animals any good at all.

I have come across a lot of other crazy idealists, drama queens (and outright performers), perfectionists, agonizers, striving self deniers and control freaks on my spiritual journey.
All of us trying so hard to silence our guilt, our fears, our cravings, our doubts, our anguish, our imperfections with various spiritual practices and lifestyle transformations and belief systems, to mold ourselves into any form other than the ones we found ourselves in.
I could certainly never accept the premise that the animal oversouls, for want of a better term, signed up for their various species to be food for humans in the circle of life of 3 D existence.
I could not accept the idea of a Creator who would design dimensions where there was so much suffering.

Neither could I accept my own non-acceptance, my resentment and hatred of the cruelty in the world I found myself in.
Non-acceptance was really hidden at the base of all my spiritual practice.
I could not accept myself or the way things are, and all my spiritual journey was an effort to escape having to deal with the incomprehensible idea that everything might actually be perfect just as it is.
There was no way I could believe or accept that.
In my mind, just about everything was WRONG.

But finally, at 65 years of age, that is beginning to change, and I am very grateful for it.
In a way, it puts me at odds with my former self and perhaps also with all those people that I used to try so hard to impress and to be like, but it is very intriguing to me now to see this trend in myself.

I experienced that feeling of acceptance when I attained states of samadhi, satori and prolonged altered states of consciousness at various times in my life.
But I could never remain there permanently, and I think perhaps that was because I had only found temporary detours around my programmed mind which could never imagine that everything could be perfect just as it is even as my everyday consciousness perceives the world to be.
So I always felt like I had so much more work to do, and I know I still do, but I seem to be arriving at a new plateau that feels different from all that's gone before.

Now, I would be very happy if my body did well on a vegan diet, but it never really has.
Perhaps that will change, and I think I will know it if that happens.
If not, I ardently hope that in my next incarnation, I will be born into a vegan or vegetarian family with genes and a body type that will naturally want and need only to be vegan or at least vegetarian, and will be healthy that way.
I know people who want to be breatharians, and I agree that would be great, but that aspiration is still too far in the future for me to think about at this point.
Just being vegan would eliminate a lot of concerns that I would rather not have to deal with.
But physiologically, I am not there yet.
Heck, even the Dalia Lama isn't there yet!
So I am not going to punish myself until I AM there, and I'm not going to concern myself overmuch about anyone else's opinions on that score.
Been there, done that.

Meanwhile, I am profoundly grateful to the animals who are providing my body with food, and I will use the strength of my body to be of service to others as much as I can, to give back in gratitude for the gifts of sustenance that I am receiving.
I am still a part of the 3D circle of life existence where that is a part of human reality, and I am in much more acceptance of that now, which I consider to be a good thing.
I hope to continue to take each step on my spiritual journey as it presents itself to me, not rushing things, not pushing the river, not presuming that all is not perfect just as it is, seeking the Middle Path, the way of balance and acceptance.

And I don't really have anything else to say about it.

Posted by Akasha (here)

As I see it, the suffering which the human race continues to undergo is directly related to the suffering it meets out on animals whilst under the illusion that there is no effect, physical or energetic, from such actions, ergo, I am and continue to be affected directly and very negatively by other's choices on this issue, choices that could be different, particularly when made by those who would otherwise be compassionate, loving individuals.

[Akasha]

Posted by onawah (here)
.....But how my eating meat might affect you is entirely up to you.
If you choose to be affected by it, that is your decision.....

Dear Onawah,

I wasn't aiming my last statement specifically at you, rather the carnivorous collective as a whole. Sorry for not making that clear enough in the last paragraph of my previous post.
To clarify: Natural law dictates that all beings are sovereign. When we dominate another (carnism being the ultimate expression of dominance), we are encroaching on that being's sovereignty and as such will be subject to natural law: we will reap what we sow, as we do to others, so will it be down to us, as above so below etc....I posit that our enslavement is directly related to the collective majority's carnistic tendencies.

[Akasha]

Posted by Referee (here)
This has always been a fundamental Law for me. I just knew it inherently. No one had to tell me I told many others in my Life and dedicated my life's work to it.

Many thanks for the input, Ref' - much appreciated, but could you possibly clarify what "this" is? I'm not sure if you are referencing the thread title or one of the quotes or something else. I'm intrigued by what you have shared. Would you care to elaborate?

Cheers.

[Lancelot]

I understand that everything living on this planet is connected.
Is killing an animal the same as the killing a tree, or killing a person the same as killing a plant? I need some clarification here.

My friend is a staunch vegan and recently called me a murderer for eating chicken. I pointed out that he chops plants and trees down so he is just as much of a murderer as I am. Is this right? Do people/animals/plants all have the same rights as living beings on this planet?

IMO its really about intention to ending a life, if you're chopping a tree down or killing an animal to survive, tell it first from the heart, explain that it is for the greater good, communicate to them on an inner level and make your intention clear.

Every living thing dies but every living thing deserves to die with minimal suffering and a good intention....

What do you think?

[Akasha]

Posted by Lancelot (here)
I understand that everything living on this planet is connected.
Is killing an animal the same as the killing a tree, or killing a person the same as killing a plant? I need some clarification here.

My friend is a staunch vegan and recently called me a murderer for eating chicken. I pointed out that he chops plants and trees down so he is just as much of a murderer as I am. Is this right? Do people/animals/plants all have the same rights as living beings on this planet?

IMO its really about intention to ending a life, if you're chopping a tree down or killing an animal to survive, tell it first from the heart, explain that it is for the greater good, communicate to them on an inner level and make your intention clear.

Every living thing dies but every living thing deserves to die with minimal suffering and a good intention....

What do you think?

Hi Lancelot.

Is that your reasoning behind killing animals?

Cheers.

[Lancelot]

[/QUOTE]

Hi Lancelot.

Is that your reasoning behind killing animals?

Cheers.[/QUOTE]

Akasha,

No, this is not my reasoning behind killing animals.

My previous post was an attempt to de-polarise this thread from the inevitable 'us v them meat eaters' and to pose the greater questions-

-Is an animal life more valuable than a tree or a human?
-Is is fine to kill trees, plants and other living things but not animals?
-Should intention and conscious connection come into the inevitable process of death?

If you believe that eating meat is not for you I respect that. However, choosing not to eat meat does not place you on some higher moral ground to go around judging others. Isn't that similar to what religious fanatics do? We are all connected and there are deeper questions here to be answered.
I do not agree that 'enslavement is directly related to the collective majority's carnistic tendencies.' Could explain your reasoning behind this?

What goes on in slaughterhouses and the way animals are killed must effect the planet on some vibrational level. Is the answer to eradicate this completely or to change the way it is consciously done? (perhaps Halal goes some way towards this) If we make a conscious decision on this planet to outlaw the killing of animals then how would we deal with a lion who instinctively kills a deer to eat? Put it in a cage and feed it vegetables?

[Akasha]

Hi Lancelot,

I appreciate your attempts to de-polarise this thread although I'm not entirely sure that's possible given it's nature.

Do you think the likes of Pythagoras, Einstein and Da Vinci were wrong to take the polarised stance which they did on this subject?

Do you think it's possible they had a deep knowledge of Hermetic principles which in turn guided them to their conclusions?

Sorry to be brief but I'm on my lunch break. I'll do my best to answer your questions this evening.

[Lancelot]

Thanks Akasha.

I think any polarity is a denial on some level that there is only one and that everything is connected. Of course their will always be differences of opinion and open discussion of these differences can only lead to learning.

I do look forward to learning the reasons behind the stance that Pythagoras, Einstein and Da Vinci took on this issue.

I should also probably get some work done this afternoon

[Abhaya]

I think akasha is doing a great job keeping this topic from turning this topic into the mess is sometimes becomes. I like the point nanoo brought up how we are living in a 3d reality but are now understanding and striving towards "5d" ethics and morals. While we may not be able to live up to these ethics perfectly we can at least try to be as non violent as we can. And while everything is living certain beings experiance higher amounts of fear and pain then others. So to kill those with limited activity in these areas is for sure a good start. It's really a knowledge we all have in our hearts. If u have a garden fully stocked to your right and some friendly barn yard animals and a butchers knife on your left and you can go left then something is wrong.

[bram]

When I first posted on here about the benefits of a vegetarian diet, I was, in my innocence, quite shocked and taken aback by the torrent of abuse and hatred that came my way from those Avalonians with a strong attachment to the devouring of corpses. I was accused, among other things, of trying to divide a happy family, of being a fascist, and of being an agent of some illusory PTB. It was almost as if I was asking proud Americans to surrender their guns. I stopped posting altogether, thinking that this forum must be populated by deranged barbarians, and it wasn’t until later, through my meditation, that I came to understand this strange and unhealthy attachment a little better, and saw that it is simply the natural unfolding of karma.

Firstly, consider the statement that we are what we eat. The kalapas, or cells that make up our gross physical body are in a state of constant flux, and are constantly being replaced. All the time, we absorb energy from the air we breathe, and we absorb physical matter from the liquids we drink and the food we eat. We are in fact entirely made up of the things we put into our bodies. We are quite literally what we eat.
The animals we devour are mostly peaceful grazing animals; when they are brought together for slaughter they experience extreme fear, along with hatred and loathing for their murderers. Don’t for an instant think that they forgive you, why would they? We can assume that every strong negative emotion is present in them at the time we kill them, or pay somebody else to kill them for us. Close your eyes and imagine for a moment that you are being restrained and are being helplessly put to a painful, hopeless and agonizing death by a vastly superior life form. How do you feel?

Along with all that negativity, they begin to decay and are taken over immediately by a host of parasitic organisms which begin to quickly absorb them and of course to defecate inside the corpses. Along with the flesh and blood, this is what we eat. Fear, anger, hatred, loathing and decay (along with the hormones and antibiotics). So it’s not really surprising that these characteristics come to represent the attachment to this bad habit, or begin to dominate the minds of carnivores, to be projected outwards at anybody who threatens this strange attachment.

Arguments about what we are evolved to eat are neither here nor there; we are continuing to evolve, and we evolve beyond devouring corpses. Arguments that eating plants is the same as eating meat are wrong on so many levels that I will not even begin to address it here, and arguments that we cannot be healthy without this blood and pus and poison in our systems are dismissably weak. Take a look at a stallion, with his diet of grass. Half the population of the world survives with little or no meat in its diet, either through choice or necessity, but you are so special you can’t?

Nobody is judging you here, you are free to continue eating meat and believing that you are enjoying it, that it is ‘good for you’, or making excuses to justify continuing with the habit. I once believed I couldn’t stop smoking. But we should all be aware that every action has inescapable consequences without fail, and that these consequences themselves lead to further consequences on and on until somebody puts a stop to the cycle of karma. Killing an animal is a serious matter, it causes extreme suffering to a sentient being and it will have dire consequences. Every year we kill billions and billions of animals to feed ourselves, so there are lots and lots of available sheep, cow and pig embryos for you to reincarnate into. Without intervention when you are on the human side of this cycle, you might go on for many lifetimes changing from animal to human and back, butchering and being butchered.

[WhiteFeather]

I have been living a vegetarian and meatless diet since my awakening in 2009. (Jokingly) I think the animals, birds and fish like me a little bit more now.

If anything,,,,,my life has been quite more peaceful and easier since. And i enjoy nature more than ever.

PS. I dont get acid reflux anymore either.