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Thread: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Lancelot (here)
    .....I do look forward to learning the reasons behind the stance that Pythagoras, Einstein and Da Vinci took on this issue....
    So would I, haha.

    But seriously, from the homepage of Rosecrosshgrc.com (Website for the Rosicrucian Order):

    Quote In ancient times, when Egyptian civilization was at its height and Egypt was the world’s center of learning, there existed a secret body of teachings called The Mysteries. Considered sacred, these were taught in the mystery schools, where only the most worthy and qualified were admitted.

    Through the centuries, these teachings were preserved and taught by the prophets (including Moses, Enoch, Abraham, Solomon and Jesus) and philosopher –sages (Hermes Trismegistus, Amenhotep IV, Socrates). Always, they were taught only to those who were deemed ready and capable of comprehending the philosophical, metaphysical and scientific ideas embodied in the teachings.

    In time, the teachings came in the possession of many rulers, thinkers and men of science (Pythagoras, Paracelsus, Emperor Napoleon, Count Saint-Germain, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson). In carefully studying and applying the teachings, these men were able to live extraordinary lives and make outstanding achievements in their respective fields.
    and.....at the bottom of the homepage is the following:

    Quote FAMOUS HERMETICISTS

    The following list enumerates a few of the world’s most famous Kabbalists, Martinists, Rosicrucians, Alchemists or Theurgists who have made important contributions in various fields: Albert Einstein, Albertus Magnus, Benjamin Franklin, Jose Rizal, Count Caglistro, Dante Alighieri, Dr. John Dalton, Dr. John Dee, Emilio Aguinaldo, Helena P. Blavatsky, Isaac Newton, Jacob Boehme, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Michael Faraday, Robert Boyle, Pythagoras, Emilio Jacinto, Rene Descartes, Nicholas Flamel, Apolinario Mabini, Paracelsus, Roger Bacon, Sir Christopher Wren, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Vaughan, William Blake, William Shakespeare, Napoleon Bonaparte, Juan Luna, Robert Boyle etc.
    Not entirely sure as to the validity of the statement, but it does tie the Pythagoras, Da Vinci and Einstein together under the hermetic banner.

    I've just downloaded The Corpus Hermeticum and will read it cover to cover before attempting to elaborate on what I hinted at earlier. Sorry for being a slacker. It's been a long week!
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    In light of the Brand new wave currently resonating through the zeitgeist and PA, I (too) thought I would take advantage of the momentum of the Brandwagon in some small way with regards to this thread so here goes:

    Quote …How we treat the vulnerable is how we define ourselves as a species…

    Russell Brand on the subject of vegetarianism
    ...whilst in conversation with Morrissey, who in the same chat said:

    Quote …It's unpleasant and it's no different from the holocaust…
    ...on the subject of animal slaughter, as well as...

    Quote …protection of animals is just common sense, it's not an intellectual debate…
    Russell also points out in the chat that:

    Quote ...I'm a vegetarian, as you know, in no small part due to awareness raised by you and your music and the stands you have taken...
    ...so it's probably worth mentioning that Morrissey has been very vocal regarding animal rights throughout his career. His song, "Meat is Murder", written together with guitarist Johnny Marr whilst in the Smiths and released way back in 1985 pulls no punches on the topic.

    Quote Meat is Murder - The Smiths

    Heifer whines could be human cries
    Closer comes the screaming knife
    This beautiful creature must die
    This beautiful creature must die
    A death for no reason
    And death for no reason is MURDER

    And the flesh you so fancifully fry
    Is not succulent, tasty or kind
    It's death for no reason
    And death for no reason is MURDER


    And the calf that you carve with a smile
    It is MURDER
    And the turkey you festively slice
    It is MURDER
    Do you know how animals die?


    Kitchen aromas aren't very homely
    It's not "comforting", cheery or kind
    It's sizzling blood and the unholy stench
    Of MURDER


    It's not "natural", "normal" or kind
    The flesh you so fancifully fry
    The meat in your mouth
    As you savour the flavour
    Of MURDER


    NO, NO, NO, IT'S MURDER
    NO, NO, NO, IT'S MURDER
    And who hears when animals cry?


    Here's Russell and Morrisseys' conversation:







    It's my own personal opinion that when we have learnt to collectively extend the non-agression principle to our "younger brothers and sisters" as well as each other, we will at last start to see the first rays of dawn of the long, dark night of the human soul..............and not before. Natural law will not have it any other way.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    United States Avalon Member Snowflower's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    When I have tried to be vegetarian, with extreme attention toward a healthy diet, I have become ill and weak. When I eat meat, I feel better. I eat only grass fed beef and home-raised, home-butchered goats, chickens, ducks, and pigs. I own dogs who are carnivores and I purchase meat for them.

    Some neighbors are American Buddhists and state that they are not allowed to kill. Anything. In fact, my son was in their home one day and swatted a mosquito on his arm - and he was told that "this is a no-kill zone." But they eat meat that other people kill. That seems like the height of hypocrisy. And I'll bet that they would not stand passively while a wild animal - or human- came at them in kill mode.

    A polygraph machine has been used to record emotions from plants. When a tomato is plucked off the plant, the plant cries. When a carrot is pulled out of the ground, it records pain.

    Every glass of water (not distilled) has living creatures in it that are consumed alive when a human or animal drinks that water.

    All of creation is based on a food supply that is killed and kills.

    Would you have us all become breatharians? But, when we inhale, it is possible that we breathe in tiny mites from the air.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Snowflower (here)

    A polygraph machine has been used to record emotions from plants. When a tomato is plucked off the plant, the plant cries. When a carrot is pulled out of the ground, it records pain.
    Polygpraphs don't record sound or pain.

    I think we need to be aware that humans are different from animals, and animals are different from plants. It is a great fortune for an apple to be eaten by a human, as it becomes absorbed into a higher life form. It is not a great fortune for an animal to be tortured and killed by a human. So, you don't have to worry so much about your tomatoes and carrots suffering.
    May all living beings (including you and me) find true happiness and remain healthy; may they be wise and compassionate in their actions, may they find lasting peace, and may no harm come to them. May all beings find the patience and endurance to deal with disappointment and failure, may they be released from karma and may they find enlightenment. May loving kindness fill the hearts of all living beings, near and far.

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    United States Avalon Member Abhaya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Snowflower (here)
    When I have tried to be vegetarian, with extreme attention toward a healthy diet, I have become ill and weak. When I eat meat, I feel better. I eat only grass fed beef and home-raised, home-butchered goats, chickens, ducks, and pigs. I own dogs who are carnivores and I purchase meat for them.

    Some neighbors are American Buddhists and state that they are not allowed to kill. Anything. In fact, my son was in their home one day and swatted a mosquito on his arm - and he was told that "this is a no-kill zone." But they eat meat that other people kill. That seems like the height of hypocrisy. And I'll bet that they would not stand passively while a wild animal - or human- came at them in kill mode.

    A polygraph machine has been used to record emotions from plants. When a tomato is plucked off the plant, the plant cries. When a carrot is pulled out of the ground, it records pain.

    Every glass of water (not distilled) has living creatures in it that are consumed alive when a human or animal drinks that water.

    All of creation is based on a food supply that is killed and kills.

    Would you have us all become breatharians? But, when we inhale, it is possible that we breathe in tiny mites from the air.
    This is a common argument. Plants are alive. And can feel "some degree of pain". And yes we have to kill to live. However people are mistaken when they take the above fact as a write off to no longer have think about what they consume since you have to kill and all killing is the same. I guess that's the route some people go. I would argue however that there are verying degrees of violence we can choose to allow and imbibe in our daily lives. While there may be tests that show plants release some molecules or hormones remenisint to pain when put under the most high tech microscopes, we don't need said highly advance technological tools to see the pain suffering and terror a cow feels when slaughtered. That's because the suffering experienced is categorically different. HUGELY obviously different. And the violence is unquestionably greater. And while slitting an animals throat your self after giving it a decent life is better then consuming slaughter house meat, You are still choosing a path that is far more violent then other viable options. What that results in on your path I cannot say. And while I would vehemently disagree with those who say they cannot thrive on a plant based diet. If you need animal proteins there are ways to even get them with out killing. Eggs, the fruit of the chicken for one example. I have neighbors with free range chickens who sell the eggs cheaper then the gmo stuff at the store. I would also say milk, but would not personally buy any store milk as the dairy industry is as cruel if not more cruel then the slaughter house industry. However raw milk from a local farm is a decent option.

    I am actually trying the 80/10/10 raw diet as advised in the book of the same title by Douglas graham. I have never felt more alert happy and just healthy in all my life. You can visit his site foodnsport.com for amazing testimonials from people who have followed this program for years and decades. Including the founder dr graham who at the age of 60+ is a trainer for professional athletes. And current frequent endurance event champion (competing against 20 year olds). Just to give a reminder that there are many countless examples of people who follow "nutritionally balanced" vegetarian diets and thrive often in another league from those who follow even "healthy" versions of the standard American diet. It is my belief that those who experience poor energy or other ill effects from a vegetarian diet should study a little to learn what they need to include in the diet to thrive. I have personally been a vegetarian for 10 years and while being older then my 3 brothers people we meet when together think I am the youngest. Not trying to brag just want to make it clear that success is possible on a vegetarian diet. As one final disclaimer if you in fact have a medical issue forcing you to eat meat. Then that's just tough. You can only do what you can do though. I think we just need to try our best to be as least violent as we reasonably can.
    Last edited by Abhaya; 30th October 2013 at 15:11.

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Thanks for your response, Snowflower.

    For me, it's about existing whilst imposing only on the lowest forms of consciousness I possibly can and keeping any suffering that results to an absolute minimum. It's clear from your attempts at being vegetarian as well as purchasing "ethical" meat that you do too.

    The notion that a tomato plant "cries" is potentially somewhat misleading though. There may well be a response which we are at liberty to "interpret" as crying, but when sophisticated technology has to be employed to translate such responses into language we "understand", I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced.

    On the other side of the coin, if the interpretations of such tests are valid, I am still at a loss as to how that justifies carnism.

    Also, and rather obviously, tomatoes contain seeds which animals are drawn to, consume and then excrete in order that the plant may be reseeded.
    All fruit consumption falls under the symbiotic banner and eating seeds, beans and legumes does not threaten the existence of the plant that bore them either.

    Regarding bacteria in water which is what I think you meant, bacteria of all kinds live quite happily within our bodies forging all manner of symbiotic relationships with us as a result, many of which are extremely vital. For example, the bacteria responsible for the production of vitamin B12 will happily reside in one's mouth if it remains sufficiently alkaline.
    Consumption of animal products only serves to threaten the existence of many of these bacteria due to the increased acidic environment created as result.

    Regarding your dogs, it's now been well established that vegan dogs consistently outlive those fed on animal products, in some cases by as much as 10 years, making the inevitable arthritic symptoms of canine old age a thing of the past but it obviously requires planning and thought well beyond the simple purchase of a tray of chum every couple of weeks.

    I would respectfully encourage you to read the rest of the thread from the beginning. Many of your points have already been addressed by folk far more eloquent than I.

    I would also appreciate it if we could draw this conversation back to the thread title. Would you care comment on that?

    In other words, if Einstein et al were right, shouldn't we be pursuing the issue even if it encroaches on our health. After all, there's not much more unhealthy than say, war unless one is of Kissinger's ilk, that is.
    Last edited by Akasha; 30th October 2013 at 21:12.
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    bump bump bump
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Yes Yes Yes.
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    For me, getting to the state of eating responsibly and sustainably grown / produced / raised food, is number 1,2, and 3 of things that need to be done. When this is done, many people will have a new view and many will convert to vegetarianism -- it will come as a result of first doing what is needed.

    We'll likely never convert Inuit - a whole society of people that live in connection with the Earth and use animals as most of their resources - simply because veggies are hard to grow in 2 months of summer season. But I don't think these people need changing, they know and fully respect responsible sustainability, and they don't really "farm" meat at all, they are given what the earth has chosen for them to have -- like lions are given their food, and all other God created creatures who need to eat meat because their bodies are designed to do so. BTW humans are designed to have meat eating abilities - We all have omnivorous teeth and digestive tracts.

    So my goal is to get the message out to the masses about how our food "lifestyles" are destroying very real and tangible things (our health, our earth, etc) -- most people truly are not yet even at this stage.

    It'll be a natural evolution -- becoming less reliant on cruder energies (meat) for sustenance, then to even becoming less reliant on that crude but slightly finer energy (plants), and eventually to connect to Life itself for sustenance rather than have to consume Life. There is only one Life -- it just animates different forms - plants and animals.

    I see vegetarianism as not an end game - but yet another stepping stone - as meat eating has been a stepping stone for humanity to be able to survive particularly harsh times on planet earth (during ice ages, etc.), but which has now been badly abused in the name of profit and various ways of control by fear.

    My 2 cents One step at a time
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 31st October 2013 at 01:25. Reason: spelling
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    We'll likely never convert Inuit - a whole society of people that live in connection with the Earth and use animals as most of their resources
    maybe historically, unfortunately now that they get "free money" via the native corporations and have been locked into single villages and no longer are semi-nomadic going from fishing camps to hunting camps any longer... a disturbing amount of the Inuit (and various other tribes) in Alaska have been reduced to violent, incestuous, rapist, domestic abusers with serious alcohol problems.

    This does not mean all, there are a small few that cling to the old ways, and a few that have made very well for themselves in modern industry as well.. but as a whole the majority of the old life styles and methods have been shattered worse than the native Americans in the lower 48 were (mostly due to the rapid onset of problems, when compared).


    as for veggie vrs carnie; well what you want to happen wont, until there is a good, bio-available source of protein to replace meat with.

    And no matter what you've read, there just isn't a protein replacement yet.
    Last edited by TargeT; 31st October 2013 at 14:43.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    yes..........
    We X Billions want to change the world and it appears we are......
    PARADISE IS POSSIBLE EVERYWHERE 4 EVERYONE

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    And no matter what you've read, there just isn't a protein replacement yet.
    Broadened our skill-set to include nutritionist have we, TargeT?

    I think Mac Danzig might disagree with you on that one…..and he's vegan so it's not even as if he's sneaking in the whey protein on the sly.

    I thought there was an extremely bio-available source of protein but it's primarily being fed to beef cattle. This second-hand consumption of plant-based protein isn't exactly efficient is it?
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Avalon Member Akasha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    My 2 cents One step at a time
    Can't say fairer than that, D. It took a decade on the vegetarian diet before I managed to go vegan (and three decades just to go veggie!!)

    I agree about the carnivorous stepping stone as well and each to his/her own according to their environment too, although if I couldn't live somewhere without being carnivorous, I'd move - period. For me, maintaining the non-aggression principle would always take precedence over my location. I accept that some folk aren't graced with that privilege though and maybe karma would be sympathetic in such cases, who knows?

    edit: although judging by what TargeT just shared about the demise of the Inuit, maybe not.
    Last edited by Akasha; 31st October 2013 at 19:12.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    And no matter what you've read, there just isn't a protein replacement yet.
    Broadened our skill-set to include nutritionist have we, TargeT?

    I think Mac Danzig might disagree with you on that one…..and he's vegan so it's not even as if he's sneaking in the whey protein on the sly.

    I thought there was an extremely bio-available source of protein but it's primarily being fed to beef cattle. This second-hand consumption of plant-based protein isn't exactly efficient is it?
    Actually yes, I've been quite interested in nutrition for a few years now; specifically the logic based methods similar to Paleo (though there are more appropriate names Primal diet fits better).

    You can show me one or two individuals who metabolize plant protein well, but the majority of vegans do not; every human is different and for the majority animal based protein is just more bio available, the fat source is also superior to plants (though plants also offer amazing fats in the form of monounsaturated fat, just not in the same quantity)

    I'm not trying to convert anyone, since veganism is mostly an "ism" and very ideological based; do what you feel is best.

    But if you look at the results of eating and you compare a vegan diet to a paleo diet, you almost wonder why anyone would choose veganism (aside from the ideological constructs).

    if you care to fully explore this topic (nutrition) and stray from your ideological convictions (in research only, at least) look at this site: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/ and the thousands of examples on the forums of people who turn out like Mac Danzig by following the Primal lifestyle.

    Of course this will go places someone who is vegan never would venture... Eating raw, raw everything, raw meat, raw veggies.. it's a very interesting, logical and amazing philosophy like approach to diet and exercise that elicits surprisingly consistent results that are not found in a plant only diet.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Well...I can only talk for myself about this issue.

    I don't eat any animals for quite a while, 11 years now.

    I have great muscle development. I lift weight and I ride my single speed road bicycle. So far, no problems regarding the lack of strength, muscle development and physical conditioning.

    I'm not taking any supplements currently, except for Vitamin C and extra minerals. I'm not obsessive about having a super balanced diet either.

    So, for me, a vegetarian diet works pretty well. I can't speak for others, though...If it works for me, it wouldn't necessarily work for everyone else, but I'm sure it would work for some as well.

    Anyway, we don't really want to go into this discussion again, do we? It's boring...

    Raf.
    Last edited by RMorgan; 31st October 2013 at 19:26.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    I am a vegetarian, however, I do not feel I treat people any differently than I did when I was a carnivore; Personally, I do not feel, in this day and age it is necessary to kill to survive (indigenous cultures exempt); further, I come from a long line of hunters and gun owners, who, in my opinion, are some of the most empathic, respectful, kind and environmentally responsible persons I have ever met --- Now that being said, I have met some god awful, self righteous vegans and vegetarians, no further "enlightened" (whatever that condescending term means) than the average person --- and whom I would not trust to babysit my cats LOL

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    England Avalon Member Lancelot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Another thread on veganism always guaranteed to bring the drum bangers out!

    I do think it effects how we treat each other. Particularly relevant to this question is how those who believe that they are superior to everyone else because they don't eat meat treat those who do. Personally I eat meat once a week and always free range, from a local farmer who treats his animals well- these animals wouldn't exist if they weren't reared by the farmer. I believe its all about intention and I do think there is a point to be made how on the mass production and slaughter of animals effects the planet on a vibrational level.

    This whole issue poses a few questions-

    Is it ok for animals to eat other animals? Carnivorous animals such as Lions and Dogs do not eat vegetables- how does the strict veggie feel about this fact? Should these animals be forced to eat vegetables against their nature?

    Is it ok to kill Trees and plants? The same argument for killing living animals could be used to argue that no living thing should be killed for human consumption?

    many thanks and with respect to all living beings

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  34. Link to Post #58
    United States Avalon Member Abhaya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Lancelot (here)
    Another thread on veganism always guaranteed to bring the drum bangers out!

    I do think it effects how we treat each other. Particularly relevant to this question is how those who believe that they are superior to everyone else because they don't eat meat treat those who do. Personally I eat meat once a week and always free range, from a local farmer who treats his animals well- these animals wouldn't exist if they weren't reared by the farmer. I believe its all about intention and I do think there is a point to be made how on the mass production and slaughter of animals effects the planet on a vibrational level.

    This whole issue poses a few questions-

    Is it ok for animals to eat other animals? Carnivorous animals such as Lions and Dogs do not eat vegetables- how does the strict veggie feel about this fact? Should these animals be forced to eat vegetables against their nature?

    Is it ok to kill Trees and plants? The same argument for killing living animals could be used to argue that no living thing should be killed for human consumption?

    many thanks and with respect to all living beings
    As these same arguments were just brought forth on the same page of this thread already I will refer you to posts 45 and 46. Which respond to them.

    Also target these dudes will likely disagree with ur wilt away veggie theory. They are actually long time followers of the 80/10/10 raw vegan diet.


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    United States Avalon Member Abhaya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    I'd also like to bring forward an intersting point which gives great evidence against the need for insane amounts of protein. There is no time in life when our protein needs and growth rates are higher then when we are infants. And when we are infants we live of off breast milk. Which provides only 6 percent of total calories from protein! 6%! So we have all at one time been on a long term diet where we consumed only 6 percent of our total calories as protein. And we have never put on new tissue faster then during that period during any other part of our lives. So think about that next time you buy a 40 dollar tank of protein powder . I'm sorry to tell you but the suggested fat and protein requirements put out by the FDA are bought and paid for by the death camp slaughter and dairy industries that pay them off.
    Last edited by Abhaya; 31st October 2013 at 21:09.

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  38. Link to Post #60
    United States Avalon Member Abhaya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Apologies Lancelot i missed a new question you did bring up.

    In regards to expecting lions and tigers to eat veggies. There is no sane vegetarian who would think that way. First of all these animals are evolved to eat raw meat. Their large intestines are a fraction the length of ours in order to avoid the putrefaction that would result from rotten meat sitting in the digestive track for any length of time(red meat one of the leading causes of colon cancer) Unlike our intestine which are, of course almost identical to apes, and much longer. Apes which eat an almost completely fruit nut and plant based diet. ( by the way did u know a chimp manages to be 5 times as strong as the average person on such a diet?) . And yeah yeah we have all seen the crazy rare footage of apes consuming meat but this is far from their staple diet. And in my opinion the rare times when an ape chooses to eat meat shows their similarity to us in that they can choose what to eat. They can get caught up in a territorial frenzy and hunt kill and eat a smaller monkey. Just as we can choose to not be fooled by modern society's FDA approved normal diet, and choose a less violent path.

    Lions and tigers don't get to choose. And by the way I'd like to see you eat meat with out first cooking, broiling, boiling, or charing it to the extend that its normal molecular structure is completely altered from anything nature would produce. And skip all the seasonings and salts which is the real taste in most meat dishes anyway.

    Instead stick to more of the foods nature intended for us, fruits are one of the few foods that are perfect for humans in their natural unadulterated, right from the tree form. If there is any food we are evolved to eat that's it. No science, flames, boiling, salting, curing, or (murdering) required to make it edible. Be like monkeys! Minus the territorial frenzies
    Last edited by Abhaya; 31st October 2013 at 22:20.

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