Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

[Akasha]

Posted by Lancelot (here)
Another thread on veganism always guaranteed to bring the drum bangers out!

I do think it effects how we treat each other. Particularly relevant to this question is how those who believe that they are superior to everyone else because they don't eat meat treat those who do. Personally I eat meat once a week and always free range, from a local farmer who treats his animals well- these animals wouldn't exist if they weren't reared by the farmer. I believe its all about intention and I do think there is a point to be made how on the mass production and slaughter of animals effects the planet on a vibrational level.

This whole issue poses a few questions-

Is it ok for animals to eat other animals? Carnivorous animals such as Lions and Dogs do not eat vegetables- how does the strict veggie feel about this fact? Should these animals be forced to eat vegetables against their nature?

Is it ok to kill Trees and plants? The same argument for killing living animals could be used to argue that no living thing should be killed for human consumption?

many thanks and with respect to all living beings

Hey Lancelot. Thanks for your input. We are all trying really hard not to bang any drums too loudly, but there's no harm in a little percussion jam, hey?

I think it's fair to say that Abhaya has covered most of your points or referenced appropriate posts which serve that purpose, although I would like to respond to your point about your local farmer providing his livestock with the opportunity to live by saying that I, personally, would choose nonexistence over that existence, no matter how green the grass was, but that's just me.

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by TargeT (here)
And no matter what you've read, there just isn't a protein replacement yet.

Broadened our skill-set to include nutritionist have we, TargeT?

I think Mac Danzig might disagree with you on that one…..and he's vegan so it's not even as if he's sneaking in the whey protein on the sly.

I thought there was an extremely bio-available source of protein but it's primarily being fed to beef cattle. This second-hand consumption of plant-based protein isn't exactly efficient is it?

Actually yes, I've been quite interested in nutrition for a few years now; specifically the logic based methods similar to Paleo (though there are more appropriate names Primal diet fits better).

You can show me one or two individuals who metabolize plant protein well, but the majority of vegans do not; every human is different and for the majority animal based protein is just more bio available, the fat source is also superior to plants (though plants also offer amazing fats in the form of monounsaturated fat, just not in the same quantity)

I'm not trying to convert anyone, since veganism is mostly an "ism" and very ideological based; do what you feel is best.

But if you look at the results of eating and you compare a vegan diet to a paleo diet, you almost wonder why anyone would choose veganism (aside from the ideological constructs).

if you care to fully explore this topic (nutrition) and stray from your ideological convictions (in research only, at least) look at this site: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/ and the thousands of examples on the forums of people who turn out like Mac Danzig by following the Primal lifestyle.

Of course this will go places someone who is vegan never would venture... Eating raw, raw everything, raw meat, raw veggies.. it's a very interesting, logical and amazing philosophy like approach to diet and exercise that elicits surprisingly consistent results that are not found in a plant only diet.

There's a lot I would like to debate within the above post, TargeT, but I think we're getting off topic. It might not be a bad idea for you to start a paleo/primal vs plant thread. I'm sure there'd be a great deal of valuable mileage in it and as I'm sure you've gathered by now, I'd be more than happy to contribute.

For the time being, though, I really want to try and keep this thread on-topic. Of course if you can tie in the paleo concept into the OP of this thread then great, go for it!

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Abhaya (here)
Apologies Lancelot i missed a new question you did bring up.

In regards to expecting lions and tigers to eat veggies. There is no sane vegetarian who would think that way. First of all these animals are evolved to eat raw meat. Their large intestines are a fraction the length of ours in order to avoid the putrefaction that would result from rotten meat sitting in the digestive track for any length of time(red meat one of the leading causes of colon cancer) Unlike our intestine which are, of course almost identical to apes, and much longer. Apes which eat an almost completely fruit nut and plant based diet. ( by the way did u know a chimp manages to be 5 times as strong as the average person on such a diet?) . And yeah yeah we have all seen the crazy rare footage of apes consuming meat but this is far from their staple diet. And in my opinion the rare times when an ape chooses to eat meat shows their similarity to us in that they can choose what to eat. They can get caught up in a territorial frenzy and hunt kill and eat a smaller monkey. Just as we can choose to not be fooled by modern society's FDA approved normal diet, and choose a less violent path.

Lions and tigers don't get to choose. And by the way I'd like to see you eat meat with out first cooking, broiling, boiling, or charing it to the extend that its normal molecular structure is completely altered from anything nature would produce. And skip all the seasonings and salts which is the real taste in most meat dishes anyway.

Instead stick to more of the foods nature intended for us, fruits are one of the few foods that are perfect for humans in their natural unadulterated, right from the tree form. If there is any food we are evolved to eat that's it. No science, flames, boiling, salting, curing, or (murdering) required to make it edible. Be like monkeys! Minus the territorial frenzies

"Apes which eat an almost completely fruit nut and plant based diet."

I know little about chimps, but here's an article that indicates a little contrary to your post ... But yeah they certainly are stronger pound for pound than the average human -- that is for sure.

research in this week’s Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences now confirms that adult male chimps regularly eat meat - See more at: http://firstlook.pnas.org/adult-male....KaUIOhZp.dpuf

Seems a bit more than territorial frenzy, not trying to argue with the overall theme -- just getting to the details ... maybe don't be too "apey" afterall

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by TargeT (here)
And no matter what you've read, there just isn't a protein replacement yet.

Broadened our skill-set to include nutritionist have we, TargeT?

I think Mac Danzig might disagree with you on that one…..and he's vegan so it's not even as if he's sneaking in the whey protein on the sly.

I thought there was an extremely bio-available source of protein but it's primarily being fed to beef cattle. This second-hand consumption of plant-based protein isn't exactly efficient is it?

What you say here may not be obvious to many -- perhaps you should elaborate? (this is a hot topic for me the same - even though I'm not a full vegetarian - still a concern) An this is the same reason the majority SA rainforests are being cleared and burned ... If you are not vegetarian -- this is important info ...

[Abhaya]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by Abhaya (here)
Apologies Lancelot i missed a new question you did bring up.

In regards to expecting lions and tigers to eat veggies. There is no sane vegetarian who would think that way. First of all these animals are evolved to eat raw meat. Their large intestines are a fraction the length of ours in order to avoid the putrefaction that would result from rotten meat sitting in the digestive track for any length of time(red meat one of the leading causes of colon cancer) Unlike our intestine which are, of course almost identical to apes, and much longer. Apes which eat an almost completely fruit nut and plant based diet. ( by the way did u know a chimp manages to be 5 times as strong as the average person on such a diet?) . And yeah yeah we have all seen the crazy rare footage of apes consuming meat but this is far from their staple diet. And in my opinion the rare times when an ape chooses to eat meat shows their similarity to us in that they can choose what to eat. They can get caught up in a territorial frenzy and hunt kill and eat a smaller monkey. Just as we can choose to not be fooled by modern society's FDA approved normal diet, and choose a less violent path.

Lions and tigers don't get to choose. And by the way I'd like to see you eat meat with out first cooking, broiling, boiling, or charing it to the extend that its normal molecular structure is completely altered from anything nature would produce. And skip all the seasonings and salts which is the real taste in most meat dishes anyway.

Instead stick to more of the foods nature intended for us, fruits are one of the few foods that are perfect for humans in their natural unadulterated, right from the tree form. If there is any food we are evolved to eat that's it. No science, flames, boiling, salting, curing, or (murdering) required to make it edible. Be like monkeys! Minus the territorial frenzies

"Apes which eat an almost completely fruit nut and plant based diet."

I know little about chimps, but here's an article that indicates a little contrary to your post ... But yeah they certainly are stronger pound for pound than the average human -- that is for sure.

research in this week’s Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences now confirms that adult male chimps regularly eat meat - See more at: http://firstlook.pnas.org/adult-male....KaUIOhZp.dpuf

Seems a bit more than territorial frenzy, not trying to argue with the overall theme -- just getting to the details ... maybe don't be too "apey" afterall

Nice find. There are varying opinions on how much meat chimps eat. In jane Goodall's observations she found that meat consisted of on average 2% or less of the chimps diet. Also the rare hunts are always carried out by the males. And the males are also usually the only to partake in the meat eating. Although they sometimes do share with the females. No other great ape has ever been found to eat meat. Gorillas, orangoutangs. IMO the fact that male chimps ,being the smartest, and most free thinking of the apes, choose to on occasion eat meat, which is for certain the smallest part of their diet, is an example of a being like us which can choose its diet based on other factors then what nature has intended for them. Some speculate that some chimps simply like the thrill of the hunt. Interesting stuff.

http://www.allaboutwildlife.com/what-do-chimps-eat

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Abhaya (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
...

"Apes which eat an almost completely fruit nut and plant based diet."

I know little about chimps, but here's an article that indicates a little contrary to your post ... But yeah they certainly are stronger pound for pound than the average human -- that is for sure.

research in this week’s Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences now confirms that adult male chimps regularly eat meat - See more at: http://firstlook.pnas.org/adult-male....KaUIOhZp.dpuf

Seems a bit more than territorial frenzy, not trying to argue with the overall theme -- just getting to the details ... maybe don't be too "apey" afterall

Nice find. There are varying opinions on how much meat chimps eat. In jane Goodall's observations she found that meat consisted of on average 2% or less of the chimps diet. Also the rare hunts are always carried out by the males. And the males are also usually the only to partake in the meat eating. Although they sometimes do share with the females. No other great ape has ever been found to eat meat. Gorillas, orangoutangs. IMO the fact that male chimps ,being the smartest, and most free thinking of the apes, choose to on occasion eat meat, which is for certain the smallest part of their diet, is an example of a being like us which can choose its diet based on other factors then what nature has intended for them. Some speculate that some chimps simply like the thrill of the hunt. Interesting stuff.

http://www.allaboutwildlife.com/what-do-chimps-eat

Some orangs have been witnessed hunting and catching smaller primates -- though oddly, these were observed as females, as opposed to the mostly exclusive male chimps that indulge in meat eating.

"Orangutans have been seen to eat meat only on rare occasions. In Sumatra, three adult females have been observed on seven occasions to hunt and eat slow lorises, and one female was observed to eat a gibbon. At Gunung Palung, a juvenile female orangutan once caught and ate a rat. "

http://people.bu.edu/orang/orangutans.html

At any case, it's mostly the male chimps which may indicate the involvement of "ego" in the desire to eat meat.

[Abhaya]

So let's be less violent then apes to if we can

[Akasha]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)
I thought there was an extremely bio-available source of protein but it's primarily being fed to beef cattle. This second-hand consumption of plant-based protein isn't exactly efficient is it?

What you say here may not be obvious to many -- perhaps you should elaborate? (this is a hot topic for me the same - even though I'm not a full vegetarian - still a concern) An this is the same reason the majority SA rainforests are being cleared and burned ... If you are not vegetarian -- this is important info ...

Hi DeDukshyn,

I was just pointing out (maybe too ambiguously) that soya is being planted at a frightening rate all over the globe, not to satisfy vegans' desire for soya milk and tofu, but as the most cost-effective livestock feed for beef cattle. If the population did become veggie, approximately only 1/6th of that area would be needed to satisfy human soya needs. The rest could be reforested leading towards a balancing out of the CO2 see-saw.....thats all. Even better, such areas could be reforested as tropical fruit forests, with appropriate ecological attention being given to wild-life habitat of course.

[Akasha]

Posted by Abhaya (here)
So let's be less violent then apes to if we can

Ditto.

Using the most violent aspects of another (lower?) species' behaviour as justification for our own perpetuation of such behaviour doesn't exactly suggest willingness to transcend our current level of collective consciousness.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)
I thought there was an extremely bio-available source of protein but it's primarily being fed to beef cattle. This second-hand consumption of plant-based protein isn't exactly efficient is it?

What you say here may not be obvious to many -- perhaps you should elaborate? (this is a hot topic for me the same - even though I'm not a full vegetarian - still a concern) An this is the same reason the majority SA rainforests are being cleared and burned ... If you are not vegetarian -- this is important info ...

Hi DeDukshyn,

I was just pointing out (maybe too ambiguously) that soya is being planted at a frightening rate all over the globe, not to satisfy vegans' desire for soya milk and tofu, but as the most cost-effective livestock feed for beef cattle. If the population did become veggie, approximately only 1/6th of that area would be needed to satisfy human soya needs. The rest could be reforested leading towards a balancing out of the CO2 see-saw.....thats all. Even better, such areas could be reforested as tropical fruit forests, with appropriate ecological attention being given to wild-life habitat of course.

Exactly -- this is a major concern that people content with eating meat from a personal point of view should know and understand. Our rainforests keep the atmosphere clean and balanced, they keep the water in the mountains and hills, thus creating their own climate zones, as opposed to hilly desert - as it will become without the trees. In these climate zones are the majority of all Earth's diversity of life -- the Majority of it. From these places plants and animals have been discovered that has led to most of our modern medicines (and thus many 'drugs" are actually naturally sourced compounds); and there is still so much we don't know about these rainforests, but yet we are willing to just haphazardly destroy them for oil and cattle profits??!

So my point is that eating responsibly is more than a personal choice, it is a global contribution addressing this "axis of evil" (to steal Bush's term ) that is bent on destroying our Home for the sake of profit. You can set aside any other reason, for personal beliefs or whatever, but this level of responsibility is actually on each of our shoulders. It's not a problem just "out there" -- it will have huge implications in 50 years if we don't start reversing these trends now.

Most people in temperate climes have no excuse not to grow their own vegetables - except maybe sheer laziness - this addresses half the "land use for food" issues right there -- the solutions to these problems are indeed based around simple individual choices and a little bit of work.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by Abhaya (here)
So let's be less violent then apes to if we can

Ditto.

Using the most violent aspects of another (lower?) species' behaviour as justification for our own perpetuation of such behaviour doesn't exactly suggest willingness to transcend our current level of collective consciousness.

Right, but we do need to keep facts straight, or people who know better won't take the issue seriously. "Apes do/don't so we should/shouldn't" isn't exactly a convincing argument anyway on any level

Not sure if I would classify anything "lower" than humans at this point in time though (speaking in respect to current state of humans - not necessarily glorifying animals or speaking of human potential)

[Akasha]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
....."Apes do/don't so we should/shouldn't" isn't exactly a convincing argument anyway on any level .....

'Zacklee!

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Not sure if I would classify anything "lower" than humans at this point in time though (speaking in respect to current state of humans - not necessarily glorifying animals or speaking of human potential)

Indeed, hence the "?" after "lower".

[lunaflare]

The Domesticator (human) is likely to abuse the domesticated (humans/animals).
I can only speak for the current animals-bred-for-profit-world, as this is what I see today.
Animals suffer the most horribly with this dynamic as they are voiceless and with little to no "rights".
Live export is one of the most abhorrent displays of human behaviour in terms of blatant abuse.
Not saying anything new, I know....but ....
It is a step bringing these issues to light and it is possible to elevate the standard of ethical practice. How different are we from so-called ETs that harvest and control human energy? Not so, I would argue.
Not eating meat or questioning this supposed "need" is a stepping stone to the pattern of domesticator/domesticated. It is a small gesture of exerting some "freedom" from this paradigm. But it is not the sole solution. This matrix runs deep...deeper than I can truly fathom.
Agree with many. Thanks for your thread Akasha...

[GreenGuy]

To answer the question: yes, the way we treat animals has a lot to do with how we treat each other. No, I am not a vegetarian. It's been demonstrated that plants are also sentient beings. Shall we not eat them as well? Is the lion evil because it tears an antelope apart?

The way to understand this issue is to realize that physical life is just an aspect of reality. Every living thing is food for something else. You and I will end up as food for the most primitive of beings: bacteria and worms. It is not the death of other organisms that establishes our spiritual parameters, but cruelty certainly does.

[Abhaya]

I agree it is cruelty that decides. So when an entity is able to live on a plant based diet. And is able to understand the difference in pain and suffering caused by killing a plant vs let's say a cow or sheep. And still chooses to go down the more cruel path. This is when there is problem

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Also note Simons latest advice on diet from his own thread

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post767315

[Akasha]

Posted by GreenGuy (here)
.....It's been demonstrated that plants are also sentient beings. Shall we not eat them as well?.....

Eating fruits, nuts and seeds is the loophole in this argument. As I mentioned in a previous post, fruit, nuts and seeds are the symbiotic link between plants and animals.

Technically, root crops, if left to go to seed, will then die off at the end of the season allowing the roots to be harvested without contravention of your argument too. Of course, this isn't carried out in modern agro-business.

I grow my own.

Re' lions/evil, is the lion aware that it is aware? if not, then no.

Best.

[Abhaya]

Actually I am converting back to meat eating. And plan a trip to outback steak house this very night!

I have been swayed by a frankly ground breaking article arguing the failures of veganism.

Here is just one mind blowing revelation from the article.

12. . Many Western Vegans too intensively visit beaches , take sun bath and for other recreational purposes its fact that eggs of many turtles and other reptiles too die during this process. Non vegans have seen vegans enjoying recreational activities on beaches So as per vegan theory how can vegans wear diamonds / visit beaches because of cruelty involved.

Please see the whole article here
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=12063

I think after we all read this we can put an end to all this silly debate

To think of all the reptiles I have crushed playing frisbee on the beach. I need to go eat some turkey legs and put an end to this hypocrisy once and for all.


Sorry bored

[Abhaya]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kUZ1YLhIAg8

With all the talk about cows being able to feel pain and terror.... I thought it was about time we talk about cows feeling joy

Watch this short vid of how cows react to getting let out to pasture for the first time after a long winter inside. Reminds me of kids getting let out on the last day of school before summer vacation.

Come on u don't want to eat those guys do ya

[RMorgan]

Hahahaha...Check this, Abhaya.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=nTQD7imxd8o

Raf.

[Abhaya]

Haha epic. They are all like "dudes have u ever heard anyone moo like that?!"