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Thread: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

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    United States Avalon Member Abhaya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Went a little off topic on another thread discussing peoples outrage over horse slaughter houses. Think the response is fitting here.

    Always amazed how we choose to label some animals as special. After living on a farm in Costa Rica with both cows and horses. I have to say the cow is just as smart if not smarter then your average horse. We decide that they are "companion" animals because they are convenient for us to prance around on, but I have experience bonding with horses and cows and both when raised in a loving way share affection and appreciate a scratch behind the ear just the same. All this is an example of people seeing the shell of the entity and not the consciousness within. Speciesism is the next hurdle for our kind. It sounds as crazy as gay rights did 50 years ago. But this is IMO the biggest leap in seeing real equality that we can take. And we won't be any sort of respectable higher thinking beings until we do. Do u personally feel appalled at the thought of eating a horse, or a dog or a cat for that matter? If u do consider a baby calf is just as playful as ur new kitten. It is a hypocrisy to be ok with one species being bred for slaughter and not a nother. Especially another with equal level of awareness. This might be going to far but this is the same mentality that allowed hitler to set up the camps. When we allow our selves to label certain entities as less then others based on really nothing less then their convienence to us when alive vs dead then this is a nazi mentality. Think about it. Go veggie and separate your self from this garbage.
    Last edited by Abhaya; 17th December 2013 at 18:32.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    A friend brought this video to my attention. I have to say I agree 10 fold.



    Here she is the self proclaimed vegan b*tch.

    Defy her if you dare

    It's short come on watch it!
    Last edited by Abhaya; 17th December 2013 at 16:34.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Went a little off topic on another thread discussing peoples outrage over horse slaughter houses. Think the response is fitting here.
    I replied to that off topic post,, I think it is fitting here also.
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Think about it. Go veggie and separate your self from this garbage.
    how about we just accept our role in this existence? or does your Speciesism stop at mobile life forms? perhaps its mobilism?

    There are many levels that should be considered when choosing how to act and evaluating the intent/motivation behind actions.

    for instance, you could realize that we are simply energy condensed into a slow vibration so we (our consciousness that encompass all things) can subjectively experience ourselves, this happens through the interaction of opposition forces (duality.. positive, negative.. male, female.. death, life.. etc..) and a rule set, or "matrix" that our consciousness created for us to play in/with.

    if that is your understanding of "reality" (which to me is the only one that makes sense & quantum theory implies this) then your experience of "veganism" is just as valid as my experience of "omnivorism", spending extra energy on one or the other "because they (the ideologies) are convenient for us to prance around on." when we could be changing the experience to a more accepting, positive understanding, that as the highest expression of consciousness (that we for sure know of) and creative force we are responsible for; well that just seems like silly expenditure of consciousness.

    ...(when eating meat)... I'm thankful that I was able to provide this portion of myself to myself to continue my experience here in this game; I hope it enables me to expand my understanding and continue to refine the small portion of our collective consciousness that is entrusted to my expression of ego (the ME).

    this mentality includes compassion for myself (IE what I eat, you, the rocks I walk on, the bugs that bite me... everything) and a (w)HOL(e)ISTIC understanding of existence helps me focus my energy (when I am focused and conscious of my actions, a struggle we all face).


    Enjoy your veganism experience, I hope you know its not "the only" one and as long as the intent is positive no experience is wrong.
    Last edited by TargeT; 17th December 2013 at 15:23.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Just came across this IMO amazing article. By Gary Yourofsky. His tone is a little harsh perhaps but the points are razor sharp. He blows away the "but plants feel pain too" argument that is often the meat eaters last ditch defense. Ignore it or address it. Please discuss.

    Quote Just came across this IMO amazing article. By Gary Yourofsky. His tone is a little harsh perhaps but the points are razor sharp. He blows away the "but plants feel pain too" argument that is often the meat eaters last ditch defense. Ignore it or address it. Please discuss.

    “When meat-eaters run out of excuses to eat dead animals, they usually spew one of two inanities. First, they promulgate respect for the vegan lifestyle, and ask for some respect in return. Of course flesh-eaters respect the vegan way. What’s not to respect? Are we too compassionate, too merciful and too altruistic? Meat-eaters begging for vegan respect is akin to NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) pedophiles asking people who don’t rape little boys for respect. I don’t respect people who choose cruelty. I don’t respect a pedophile’s choice to molest kids. I don’t respect a rapist’s desire to violate a woman’s body. I don’t respect a thief’s desire to rob banks. I don’t respect a Nazi’s belief that Jews, blacks, gays, etc. are inferior and should be exterminated. I don’t respect lifestyles based on hatred and discrimination.

    The second inanity of meat-eaters is attempting to indict the vegan lifestyle by claiming that plants suffer and die to feed the vegans of the world. Yet, I am still searching for People for the Ethical Treatment of Carrots, Last Chance for Broccoli or Apples Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow. People for the Ethical Treatment of Carrots doesn’t exist because everyone knows the difference between taking a carrot out of the ground and slicing a pig into pieces. Everyone also knows the difference between mowing a lawn and tossing a live baby male chick (egg industry) into a rendering machine. If one does not understand the difference, then that person is disingenuous, irrational and illogical. The fact that some people compare carrots to cows proves how muck-deep in oppressive thought meat-eaters truly are.
    Allow me to explain further how absurd it is to think that plants are akin to animals in any way. My wife recently visited her parents and noticed the 20-year-old cactus in her childhood bedroom wasn’t doing well. After perusing some gardening sites for tips, we CUT the cactus in half and set it out to dry in the sun for three days. We re-planted it with a Dracaena plant and now it is thriving. If you truly believe that plants and animals are one and the same, then cut a human baby in half and see what happens. Better yet, go to your local hospice center and heal them by cutting everyone in half. The truth is that if this website discussed the suffering of carrots and tomatoes, or I gave speeches about cashew cruelty, or I presented footage of people picking apples from a tree and raged about the apple-plucking, you would be laughing your ass off and texting your friends about my insanity.
    Even from the meat-eater’s perspective, it’s just illogical to speak of giving rights of freedom and bodily integrity to insentient plants while causing sentient animals to suffer and die by the billion! Plants—unlike animals—are insentient beings void of central nervous systems, lungs, hearts, kidneys, intestines, blood, ears and eyes. They do not defecate or urinate either. Nobody screams in horror when their neighbors are mowing the lawn (grass is a plant, too). But if neighbors were slicing pigs into pieces on the front lawn, there would be tears, physical interventions and the proper authorities would be summoned to stop the bloodshed. Plus, if people honestly believe it’s wrong to eat plants, they could always choose the ultra-vegan lifestyle of fruitarianism (eating the fruits and nuts that fall from trees). From a Judeo-Christian-Islamic perspective, the Garden of Eden was a fruitarian haven. From a physiological angle, humans are actually fruitarians/frugivores (see the HUMANS ARE HERBIVORES section on this page).
    The epigrammatic philosopher Voltaire once said, “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” When it comes to pain and suffering, the screams, the blood, the writhing, and the fear that animals exhibit trump the so called “waves” of plants.
    But just to show how thoroughly disingenuous this so-called “plant-killing argument” really is, let’s suppose for the moment that the meat-eaters who invoke it really believe that their vegan counterparts cause plants to suffer and die. Even if that were the case, these meat-eaters would be logically committed to switching to veganism right away! If you’ve studied the two sections on animal-based agriculture above, you already know that carnivorous societies destroy many more plants than the vegan ones do. In America, 70 to 80 percent of our corn, wheat, oats and soy are fed to the 10 billion land animals killed annually. Globally, 35 to 65 percent of the world’s plants are fed to 60 billion land animals killed annually. If humans stopped eating animals, fewer plants would be harvested; remember, a single vegan directly consumes about one-tenth of the plant material that is either directly or indirectly consumed by a single carnivorous human. Veganism is still the ONLY solution to this problem, because fewer beings—sentient and insentient—would die if humans, who are physiologically herbivorous anyway, ate plants directly. Even the Council for Science, Technology and Agriculture, a group of animal agriculture people, stated in the early ’90s that all the crops in America could feed every human on this planet twice-over! However, there had to be one stipulation; everyone would have to be vegan!

    Sadly, these facts make little or no impression on meat-eaters who seek refuge in the plant-killing argument because they really don’t give a **** about plants any more than they give a **** about the suffering of animals. They’re just groping desperately for yet another lame excuse to eat meat.
    Some meat-eaters claim that vegans indirectly kill animals because tractors that harvest crops unintentionally kill some animals. The worldwide premeditated killings of 60 billion land animals in slaughterhouses and 90 billion marine animals in the waterways are diametrically opposed to the accidental tractor-killings in a field. Even our unjust legal system recognizes the difference between a premeditated murder and an accidental killing. Since farmers don’t use their John Deeres to intentionally crush gophers and snakes, you never know when, where, or whether it’s going to happen. Slaughterhouses INTENTIONALLY kill animals for meat-eaters. No one intentionally kills gophers for vegans. I’ve volunteered at SASHA Farm animal sanctuary for over 15 years. When we mowed the hay fields, there were times when a snake or a field mouse ended up in the bales of hay. This never made us intentional killers. It made us people in the 21st century who rely on machines. When we use machines, accidental killings of animals and people will occur. Isn’t it conveniently hypocritical that the meat-eaters who bring up the animal-tractor issue still drive a car or truck, even though those machines kill millions of humans annually worldwide? These accidental killings are okay with meat-eaters because meat-eaters aren’t human-killing addicts. They’re animal-killing addicts. And addicts are the most insane, illogical, excuse-filled people to ever deface this earth. Addicts are ALWAYS irrational when it comes to their habits. Have you ever known an alcoholic, a cigarette smoker or a heroin user to be rational or ethical when it came to alcohol, cigarettes or heroin? Of course not. And there is NO such thing as a rational—or ethical—meat, dairy, and egg-eater when it comes to animal issues and whether humans should be enslaving, murdering and eating animals.
    Vegans tread lightly and cause the absolute minimal amount of unintentional suffering to this planet and its inhabitants. Meat-eaters cause the MAXIMUM amount of intentional and unintentional suffering to this planet and its inhabitants because it is unreasonable to intentionally starve millions of humans to death by feeding around 50 percent of the world’s grains to 60 billion land animals, to murder 60 billion land animals and 90 billion marine animals with premeditation, and then accidentally kill wild animals with tractors. With veganism, we could eliminate two problems instead of living with three!



    After rereading the article I do feel that this would have been a true master piece if he had simply dialed down the aggression several notches. That being said his points are still impressively accurate and hard hitting. And in a way the aggression may have some use as it is what gets these debates riled up and forces people to again go over their personal rationale, as to what they think is ok to eat.

    And actually there is a fine line between making points to judge others. And sincerely believing in what you are saying and thus the passion is directed towards the protection of the animals and devoid of any "I am better then you ego"

    Where this author lies in that regard I cannot say but his points hold true.
    Last edited by Abhaya; 17th December 2013 at 15:57.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    After rereading the article I do feel that this would have been a true master piece if he had simply dialed down the aggression several notches.
    and perhaps added in some logic and data (facts) other than vegans eating 1/10th the amount of plant matter when compared to "meat eaters".

    this belief set is almost scary, the anger seeping out of that makes veganism seem like it can easily twist in to a very dark negative & hateful belief.. that alone turns many many people off to it.

    the judgement, the shame blame and guilt... I suppose my shock at this type of behavior is similar to your shock at my brisket dinner lastnight.

    I hope all this negativity and animosity doesn't spill TOO many people over into extremist groups ( I mean animal rights terror groups are hilarious, and dangerous at the same time..)

    where's the white flag...?
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Went a little off topic on another thread discussing peoples outrage over horse slaughter houses. Think the response is fitting here.
    I replied to that off topic post,, I think it is fitting here also.
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Think about it. Go veggie and separate your self from this garbage.
    how about we just accept our role in this existence? or does your Speciesism stop at mobile life forms? perhaps its mobilism?

    There are many levels that should be considered when choosing how to act and evaluating the intent/motivation behind actions.

    for instance, you could realize that we are simply energy condensed into a slow vibration so we (our consciousness that encompass all things) can subjectively experience ourselves, this happens through the interaction of opposition forces (duality.. positive, negative.. male, female.. death, life.. etc..) and a rule set, or "matrix" that our consciousness created for us to play in/with.

    if that is your understanding of "reality" (which to me is the only one that makes sense & quantum theory implies this) then your experience of "veganism" is just as valid as my experience of "omnivorism", spending extra energy on one or the other "because they (the ideologies) are convenient for us to prance around on." when we could be changing the experience to a more accepting, positive understanding, that as the highest expression of consciousness (that we for sure know of) and creative force we are responsible for; well that just seems like silly expenditure of consciousness.

    ...(when eating meat)... I'm thankful that I was able to provide this portion of myself to myself to continue my experience here in this game; I hope it enables me to expand my understanding and continue to refine the small portion of our collective consciousness that is entrusted to my expression of ego (the ME).

    this mentality includes compassion for myself (IE what I eat, you, the rocks I walk on, the bugs that bite me... everything) and a (w)HOL(e)ISTIC understanding of existence helps me focus my energy (when I am focused and conscious of my actions, a struggle we all face).


    Enjoy your veganism experience, I hope you know its not "the only" one and as long as the intent is positive no experience is wrong.
    As for not including plants in speciesism. See the article I just posted

    As for boiling all experience down to energy waves.... While I agree to a large level with that being an aspect of reality, to take said thinking to far is quite dangerous. For instance then we could make a case for cannibalism being acceptable too. If we apply said logic to sex life then, could we not say the sexual desires of a pedofile are simply another energy pattern that when thought about right can be embraced as well. When played out to its limit it paves the way for chaos.

    You say you look at your stake dinner as something which allows you continue on. There are ways to "continue on" which cause far less pain and suffering.......

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    After rereading the article I do feel that this would have been a true master piece if he had simply dialed down the aggression several notches.
    and perhaps added in some logic and data (facts) other than vegans eating 1/10th the amount of plant matter when compared to "meat eaters".

    this belief set is almost scary, the anger seeping out of that makes veganism seem like it can easily twist in to a very dark negative & hateful belief.. that alone turns many many people off to it.

    the judgement, the shame blame and guilt... I suppose my shock at this type of behavior is similar to your shock at my brisket dinner lastnight.

    I hope all this negativity and animosity doesn't spill TOO many people over into extremist groups ( I mean animal rights terror groups are hilarious, and dangerous at the same time..)

    where's the white flag...?
    Again there is fine line between hatred and justified anger. If a animal rights activist truly feels for the animals plight and are begging, pleading, for their safety, and angry about it to then there is no fault. If the activist see's meat eaters as being less worth then any one else then they violate their own philosophy.

    Question when the holocaust was going on, do you think it would have been apt to discuss in PC chat rooms while we are careful to respect the murderous desires of gas chamber sergeants. No you should get mad and stand up. Picketing would not be enough even.

    As for the white flag, if you find it there are some kind entities in the slaughter houses ready to wave the hell out of that thing.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    As for not including plants in speciesism. See the article I just posted
    it was terrible? just because you don't see a "save the carrot" society doesn't mean a damn thing... there wasn't a "save the jews" society during the holocaust, that logic is well.. there is no logic really.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    As for boiling all experience down to energy waves.... While I agree to a large level with that being an aspect of reality, to take said thinking to far is quite dangerous. For instance then we could make a case for cannibalism being acceptable too. If we apply said logic to sex life then, could we not say the sexual desires of a pedofile are simply another energy pattern that when thought about right can be embraced as well. When played out to its limit it paves the way for chaos.
    Cannibalism is socially unacceptable, just like eating dogs is in america; but it is practiced in other parts of the world ( just like eating dogs). The next step in this discussion leads to a quantifiable topic.

    Which life is "worth more" than another? clearly vegans do not care about plant life, I'd guess insect life is also not cared for? how about reptiles, do they count or are they in kind of a grey fuzzy area? is it only mammals that we are concerned with? which life meets the cut off point (if you are going to set one)? this is where your cannibalism argument goes...

    as for pedophile, that ignores a very key point of my short writing.. intent.

    if the intent is for good, pedophilia does not have a place, and is completely irrelevant to the argument. Trying to prove a point by bring up extremes is a very common tactic, its more exciting and extremes (duality) is the bread and butter of existence so its understandable; but its still not applicable.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Again there is fine line between hatred and justified anger
    fighting fire with fire burns the whole world down.


    anger (aka fear, the dark side of emotion) is the wrong side, come into the light!
    Last edited by TargeT; 17th December 2013 at 15:56.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Very good article, Abhaya.

    The guy sounds a little bit harsh indeed, but I understand him to a certain point.

    Long term vegetarians know a lot about receiving gratuitous violence from meet eaters... I've had people wanting to punch me in the face just because I'm a vegetarian; Really, even if you don't say a word about it, some people become completely out of their minds just to know that you don't eat meat.

    Anyway, people will invariably do everything they can to defend whatever they've grown up believing to be right, independently of logic and reason.

    If you're not a very balanced person, this violence can affect you negatively. I believe that's the case with this guy.

    It's really a challenge to remain calm and cool when your opposition is often very violent and angry.

    Obviously, this "you're murdering plants too" argument is completely flawed and can be easily refuted from several different angles...In fact, I'm yet to hear a meat eating argument that can't be logically refuted, but I'm not into this game anymore...It's kind of pointless

    Anyway, logically speaking, the only truly solid argument a meat eater can use to defend his habit is to say that he eats meat because he likes it. It's as simple as that. Broadly speaking, people are free to choose what to do with their lives, and whatever choices they make are sovereign and legitimate. This doesn't mean there aren't consequences for each choice, of course.

    At this point, it's impossible not to admit that the vegetarian diet has much more pros than cons...It's good for the planet, it doesn't involve suffering, cruelty and brutality and it's very beneficial for health if conducted properly...The only point against vegetarianism that I can think about is that some people are not really compatible with this diet; They are the minority, though.

    Anyway, I'm not like this guy. I respect people individually. It doesn't mean I have to accept and admire their choices. Everyone deserves to be respected, though.

    Keep up with this great thread, guys.

    Raf.
    Last edited by RMorgan; 17th December 2013 at 16:00.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    As for not including plants in speciesism. See the article I just posted
    it was terrible? just because you don't see a "save the carrot" society doesn't mean a damn thing... there wasn't a "save the jews" society during the holocaust, that logic is well.. there is no logic really.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    As for boiling all experience down to energy waves.... While I agree to a large level with that being an aspect of reality, to take said thinking to far is quite dangerous. For instance then we could make a case for cannibalism being acceptable too. If we apply said logic to sex life then, could we not say the sexual desires of a pedofile are simply another energy pattern that when thought about right can be embraced as well. When played out to its limit it paves the way for chaos.
    Cannibalism is socially unacceptable, just like eating dogs is in america; but it is practiced in other parts of the world ( just like eating dogs). The next step in this discussion leads to a quantifiable topic.

    Which life is "worth more" than another? clearly vegans do not care about plant life, I'd guess insect life is also not cared for? how about reptiles, do they count or are they in kind of a grey fuzzy area? is it only mammals that we are concerned with? which life meets the cut off point (if you are going to set one)? this is where your cannibalism argument goes...

    as for pedophile, that ignores a very key point of my short writing.. intent.

    if the intent is for good, pedophilia does not have a place, and is completely irrelevant to the argument. Trying to prove a point by bring up extremes is a very common tactic, its more exciting and extremes (duality) is the bread and butter of existence so its understandable; but its still not applicable.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Again there is fine line between hatred and justified anger
    fighting fire with fire burns the whole world down.


    anger (aka fear, the dark side of emotion) is the wrong side, come into the light!
    Quote if that is your understanding of "reality" (which to me is the only one that makes sense & quantum theory implies this) then your experience of "veganism" is just as valid as my experience of "omnivorism", spending extra energy on one or the other "because they (the ideologies) are convenient for us to prance around on." when we could be changing the experience to a more accepting, positive understanding, that as the highest expression of consciousness (that we for sure know of) and creative force we are responsible for; well that just seems like silly expenditure of consciousness.
    Here you clearly state that according to your energy wave philosphy all experiences can be changed to a more positive one via proper rationale. I argue that this can be a loophole to try to dodge responsibilities earned by original intent. Perhaps to sooth ones self when they feel guilt prior to an original even if sub-conscience intent.

    In this later post you back track and say intent is actually the most important thing. But this would destroy your original theory where all experiances including killing and eating meat of any entity can be rationally harmonized as a valid and equal experiance.

    I would argue that when one understands that they can live in a way that causes less pain and suffering to the world. Yet they choose to go the more violent path. There is no intent or post eating rationale that can be harmonious, loving, or justified.
    Last edited by Abhaya; 17th December 2013 at 16:27.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Here you clearly state that according to your energy wave philosphy all experiences can be changed to a more positive one via proper rationale. I argue that this can be a loophole to try to dodge responsibilities earned by original intent. Perhaps to sooth ones self when they feel guilt prior to an original even if sub-conscience intent.
    yes, we can change things, I agree. there is no loophole in change, in fact there wouldn't be change with a loophole of dodging responsability... why would there be change at all unless there was a need for it seen?

    or do you have a different definition of change?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    In this later post you back track and say intent is actually the most important thing. But this would destroy your original theory where all experiances including killing and eating meat of any entity can be harmonized as a valid and equal experiance.

    I would argue that when one understands that they can live in a way that causes less pain and suffering to the world. Yet they choose to go the more violent path. There is no intent or post eating rationale that can be harmonious, loving, or justified.
    I am pretty purposeful with the words I choose, I did not say intent is the MOST important thing did I, that almost sounds exclusive. I don't think the concept I put forth is being absorbed, your entire argument is invalidated when you mention killing (ending of life), since you participate in it also; this cognizant dissonance is hard for me to understand..

    I'll ask again, which life do you value more, where is your scale, what meets your criteria and what doesn't?

    and I completely disagree with your last statement, our very "being" is violent, when you live in modern society and use a computer, electricity, drive on roads etc; these are all so intermingled with violence that the hypocrisy of that statement (which is very in line with veganism In my mind, so I'm not overly surprized) very extensive.
    Last edited by TargeT; 17th December 2013 at 16:50.
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  22. Link to Post #92
    United States Avalon Member Abhaya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Here you clearly state that according to your energy wave philosphy all experiences can be changed to a more positive one via proper rationale. I argue that this can be a loophole to try to dodge responsibilities earned by original intent. Perhaps to sooth ones self when they feel guilt prior to an original even if sub-conscience intent.
    yes, we can change things, I agree. there is no loophole in change, in fact there wouldn't be change with a loophole of dodging responsability... why would there be change at all unless there was a need for it seen?

    or do you have a different definition of change?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    In this later post you back track and say intent is actually the most important thing. But this would destroy your original theory where all experiances including killing and eating meat of any entity can be harmonized as a valid and equal experiance.

    I would argue that when one understands that they can live in a way that causes less pain and suffering to the world. Yet they choose to go the more violent path. There is no intent or post eating rationale that can be harmonious, loving, or justified.
    I am pretty purposeful with the words I choose, I did not say intent is the MOST important thing did I, that almost sounds exclusive. I don't think the concept I put forth is being absorbed, your entire argument is invalidated when you mention killing (ending of life), since you participate in it also; this cognizant dissonance is hard for me to understand..

    I'll ask again, which life do you value more, where is your scale, what meets your criteria and what doesn't?

    and I completely disagree with your last statement, our very "being" is violent, when you live in modern society and use a computer, electricity, drive on roads etc; these are all so intermingled with violence that the hypocrisy of that statement (which is very in line with veganism In my mind, so I'm not overly surprized) very extensive.
    All life is to be valued equally. You are correct that we need to kill to live. It is not a matter of what entity has less value and we should therefor kill. It is a matter of what entities feels the least pain and suffering. And thereby what path can we take that causes the least terror suffering and pain. In the violent material existence we are in this is the best we can hope to do.

    Thanks for bringing forward more on this topic. As you have before

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    what path can we take that causes the least terror suffering and pain. In the violent material existence we are in this is the best we can hope to do.
    I'll assume that is a good summation of most vegan standpoints, but it almost seems more against industrial meat production and less about eating animals; to that point I'll say I'm a meat eating vegan!
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Well one could argue that the difference in violence between eating slaughter house meat, and eating from a local farmer is greater then the difference between going from eating that local meat and becoming a vegetarian. That point however should only serve to highlight the extreme amount of violence inside the average supermarket steak. And of course I personally don't think that even the violence needed in local farm slaughter is necessary.

    Another thing is the shear amount of meat that we eat is frankly insane. Now a days if there isn't meat in the meal it isn't even considered a meal. 150 years ago meat was served as a special occasion a few times a year. The obscene abundance of brutally violent mass produced meat further obscures people's perception as to what's normal.
    Last edited by Abhaya; 17th December 2013 at 18:37.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote it was terrible? just because you don't see a "save the carrot" society doesn't mean a damn thing... there wasn't a "save the jews" society during the holocaust, that logic is well.. there is no logic really.
    Just to expand on this point . During the holocaust, at least in the nazi friendly areas, there wasn't a save the Jews campaign, because it was thought to be justified. It wasn't until later that everyone realized the wrong of their ways. similarly I hope that one day we come to the same realization with our current holocaust of animals, and that the justification we use for slaughter houses today seems as silly as the justification the nazi's put forward for their "slaughter houses"

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    I cannot believe that no one here has notices the despising, judgemental, red neck, jihadist fundamentalist thinking video Abhaya has posted above. Are you all hooked on fake look???

    Please, comment, I cannot admit that people behaving with that spitfull mouth are tolerated on Avalon.

    THis is enough to make me get away from vegetarians forever. luckily Carmody's comments were intelligent, balanced and helpful.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    I cannot believe that no one here has notices the despising, judgemental, red neck, jihadist fundamentalist thinking video Abhaya has posted above. Are you all hooked on fake look???

    Please, comment, I cannot admit that people behaving with that spitfull mouth are tolerated on Avalon.

    THis is enough to make me get away from vegetarians forever. luckily Carmody's comments were intelligent, balanced and helpful.
    I'm an ominivore slowly converting (it'll be a few years, and if ever in need in the future I can get my own food - even in Canada where veggies only grow a few months of the year -- if required), and the only comment I have is that it was Akasha who re-posted it the second time -- not Abhaya as you indicated in the other thread.

    However this (flashes reaction - potentially valid from her perspective) is exactly the issue indicated by one of my earlier points on the subject (most notably in a pm exchange to Akasha (who I know consider a friend and understand moreso henceforth), but also publicly). Coming across as offensive serves no one's interests. Really - it is true. The range of the offended is commonly quite broad per incident. Just an observation, no offense to Akasha, Abhaya, nor to Flash for my not having blatant instant support, my fellow omnivore -- (avoiding the bar-b-q )
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 18th December 2013 at 04:19. Reason: edited a bit for extra clarity of stance -- after abhaya's response +spelling.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Flash u are on a rampage. Maybe it's time to take a breather. You are trying to turn that vid into something it isn't even close to. If a mod were to over look the interactions between us I would be curious as to who is really stepping over the line. Did u call Akasha and I jihadist retards on the other thread?.... Lol come on let it go. If u get so heated over this subject maybe this is life telling you that you should reevaluate your eating habits. We all should be in a constant process of bettering ourselves in so many ways. I have no hard feelings towards u. Trust me. If u are so angered by our threads please feel free to ignore them. And when u feel like it join the debate. We can both grow from the interaction I'm sure

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    I cannot believe that no one here has notices the despising, judgemental, red neck, jihadist fundamentalist thinking video Abhaya has posted above. Are you all hooked on fake look???

    Please, comment, I cannot admit that people behaving with that spitfull mouth are tolerated on Avalon.

    THis is enough to make me get away from vegetarians forever. luckily Carmody's comments were intelligent, balanced and helpful.
    I'm an ominivore slowly converting (it'll be a few years, and if ever in need in the future I can get my own food - even in Canada where veggies only grow a few months of the year -- if required), and the only comment I have is that it was Akasha who re-posted it the second time -- not Abhaya as you indicated in the other thread.

    However this is exactly one of my earlier points on the subject. Coming across as offensive serves no ones interests. Really - it is true. The range of the offended is commonly quite broad per incident. Just an observation, no offense to Akasha, nor to Flash for my not having blatant instant support, my fellow omnivore -- (avoiding the bar-b-q )
    I will agree that the vid was probably a long shot at being effective. Honestly we just liked it and had to put it up. Lol. Lesson learned. I think though that the dislikers may have pounced on the offense first. The video was receiving quite a few likes before the unslought began. So it was appreciated by some I hope. Perhaps some appreciators who didn't want to get in the line of fire once that train started rolling.

    And a thanks to DD who has contributed to many a quality discussion on this thread!
    Last edited by Abhaya; 18th December 2013 at 02:21.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    A friend brought this video to my attention. I have to say I agree 10 fold.



    Here she is the self proclaimed vegan b*tch.

    Defy her if you dare

    It's short come on watch it!
    I'd defy her. I'd eat a hamburger in front of her.

    She needs to get a life and a bit of a grip on reality.

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