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Thread: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    thinking about it more and I felt like the "what about plants having rights then" argument was inevidable to follow. and rightfully so in many respects. But of course we have to kill to live on this plane of exsistance. horrible fact. But I was thinking about a compromise on where to draw the line on what forms of life are given rights. IMHO i think it only natural to base this on how conscious a being is, to the best of our ability to decifer (not perfect I know, but we can only do our best right?), beings which clearly have affection for their young, feel phsyical pain similar to how we feel it, display curriosity and awareness, should be given in my opinion rights of any sentiant being, and certainly the right to its life. And beings, which as far as we can tell, percieve the least levels of pain and least levels of awareness can be used as food. I think this is the best we can do IMO. Would love to hear ideas about where we can draw this line.


    Abhaya, I am glad you addressed this point and I think your conclusion is the best that we can do at this time. I have always been uncomfortable with the fact that we must kill at some level to exist on this planet, but that is the way it is. I think having respect and gratitude for all things that support our life by giving their life energy is essential for me to have any level of internal peace. If I can look at life on earth as a dance and constant exchange and restructuring of life force it makes it easier to deal with. I always remember that at some time in the future I too will make the ultimate payment and contribute my life energy back to its source and it will again be transmuted into many other things and I find that thought comforting.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    thinking about it more and I felt like the "what about plants having rights then" argument was inevidable to follow. and rightfully so in many respects. But of course we have to kill to live on this plane of exsistance. horrible fact. But I was thinking about a compromise on where to draw the line on what forms of life are given rights. IMHO i think it only natural to base this on how conscious a being is, to the best of our ability to decifer (not perfect I know, but we can only do our best right?), beings which clearly have affection for their young, feel phsyical pain similar to how we feel it, display curriosity and awareness, should be given in my opinion rights of any sentiant being, and certainly the right to its life. And beings, which as far as we can tell, percieve the least levels of pain and least levels of awareness can be used as food. I think this is the best we can do IMO. Would love to hear ideas about where we can draw this line.


    Abhaya, I am glad you addressed this point and I think your conclusion is the best that we can do at this time. I have always been uncomfortable with the fact that we must kill at some level to exist on this planet, but that is the way it is. I think having respect and gratitude for all things that support our life by giving their life energy is essential for me to have any level of internal peace. If I can look at life on earth as a dance and constant exchange and restructuring of life force it makes it easier to deal with. I always remember that at some time in the future I too will make the ultimate payment and contribute my life energy back to its source and it will again be transmuted into many other things and I find that thought comforting.
    well now the discussion has degraded into speciesism; just because we don't understand the plant world very well doesn't mean it deserves an entirely different category of "life"

    it looks like the above argument can be condensed to: life that feels emotion should not be eaten

    and parts of the argument are almost invalidated already, most animals I work with do NOT react to pain as humans do; and to induce "suffering" (which is entirely a mental construct, and doesn't apply to the less cognitively affluent) I've seen horses with injuries that would have humans writhing in pain on the ground & bedridden; yet the horse was fine and didn't even mind extremely invasive cleaning of the wound (I had my hand inside a 8" long laceration, between muscles in her shoulder while trying to wash it out to prevent infection).

    curiosity and "awareness" are tough ones and really you could get into a debate on free will...

    Skip to 1:57:23


    This is a very debatable topic (free will)

    so there's some thoughts
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    thinking about it more and I felt like the "what about plants having rights then" argument was inevidable to follow. and rightfully so in many respects. But of course we have to kill to live on this plane of exsistance. horrible fact. But I was thinking about a compromise on where to draw the line on what forms of life are given rights. IMHO i think it only natural to base this on how conscious a being is, to the best of our ability to decifer (not perfect I know, but we can only do our best right?), beings which clearly have affection for their young, feel phsyical pain similar to how we feel it, display curriosity and awareness, should be given in my opinion rights of any sentiant being, and certainly the right to its life. And beings, which as far as we can tell, percieve the least levels of pain and least levels of awareness can be used as food. I think this is the best we can do IMO. Would love to hear ideas about where we can draw this line.


    Abhaya, I am glad you addressed this point and I think your conclusion is the best that we can do at this time. I have always been uncomfortable with the fact that we must kill at some level to exist on this planet, but that is the way it is. I think having respect and gratitude for all things that support our life by giving their life energy is essential for me to have any level of internal peace. If I can look at life on earth as a dance and constant exchange and restructuring of life force it makes it easier to deal with. I always remember that at some time in the future I too will make the ultimate payment and contribute my life energy back to its source and it will again be transmuted into many other things and I find that thought comforting.
    well now the discussion has degraded into speciesism; just because we don't understand the plant world very well doesn't mean it deserves an entirely different category of "life"

    it looks like the above argument can be condensed to: life that feels emotion should not be eaten

    and parts of the argument are almost invalidated already, most animals I work with do NOT react to pain as humans do; and to induce "suffering" (which is entirely a mental construct, and doesn't apply to the less cognitively affluent) I've seen horses with injuries that would have humans writhing in pain on the ground & bedridden; yet the horse was fine and didn't even mind extremely invasive cleaning of the wound (I had my hand inside a 8" long laceration, between muscles in her shoulder while trying to wash it out to prevent infection).

    curiosity and "awareness" are tough ones and really you could get into a debate on free will...

    Skip to 1:57:23


    This is a very debatable topic (free will)

    so there's some thoughts

    Actually I think even to summarize with something like, things which feel emotions should be granted the rights to its own life, is maybe not so far fetched. It's true we can never definitively, through logic, know that plants are not secretly more advanced then other animals. And in fact if you really believe that plants are the more aware conscious species, and that cows and horses feel the least amount of pain and suffering, and therefor to kill them and never pluck a carrot is the kindest way you can sincerely live then you are doing your best. We cannot ever know anything conclusively through logic. We have to trust our hearts to a large extent as to what is the kindest way to live. To me it feels obvious that plant life dosnt have the facility to feel pain terror and suffering like myself or like large seemingly intelligent emotional creatures like a cow. I don't know this because of putting anything under the microscope it just resonates in my heart.

    As for horses and cows not feeling pain similar to humans I don't think I can go to far with you on that one. Humans when dealt massive injuries often go into complete numbness due to shock also. And I don't need to search very hard to show videos of farm animals screeching in pain at the slaughter house.

    I think the danger here is to think that because logically we can't know if a plant is really more or less sentient then a cow (even though common experience would tell us so in most cases) that therefor because we can't know there is no point to try to "kill kinder" because "who knows" if we are really doing a better thing. And as a result of that we make the decision heavily if not completely determined only by what tastes better. That is not ok IMO. We have to trust our hearts and live as kindly as we sincerely feel we can in our eating habits and in life in general. If we try to limit/reduce anything in life down to simply logic and not what's in our hearts it will always turn to chaos. Logic on its own is dry and never quite conclusive enough when it comes to the higher things in life.
    Last edited by Abhaya; 4th September 2014 at 16:14.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Actually I think even to summarize with something like, things which feel emotions should be granted the rights to its own life, is maybe not so far fetched.
    well good, I'm glad I could help refine your stance

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    It's true we can never definitively, through logic, know that plants are not secretly more advanced then other animals. And in fact if you really believe that plants are the more aware conscious species, and that cows and horses feel the least amount of pain and suffering, and therefor to kill them and never pluck a carrot is the kindest way you can sincerely live then you are doing your best.
    Based on my understanding and theories of reality, this is all that matters.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    We cannot ever know anything conclusively through logic.
    I suppose in the context of this particular conversation, at this particular point in time, that statement is correct... however I'd counter with the following statement:

    We cannot ever knowing anything conclusively with out logic.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    We have to trust our hearts to a large extent as to what is the kindest way to live. To me it feels obvious that plant life dosnt have the facility to feel pain terror and suffering like myself or like large seemingly intelligent emotional creatures like a cow. I don't know this because of putting anything under the microscope it just resonates in my heart.
    And in 1810 I bet that it was "obvious" that slaves (generally high melanin content individuals) didn't deserve treatment different from mules either....

    and I don't know what to do with a statement like "resonates in my heart"; your feelings are valid but not overly applicable to a discussion outside of your own head.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    As for horses and cows not feeling pain similar to humans I don't think I can go to far with you on that one. Humans when dealt massive injuries often go into complete numbness due to shock also. And I don't need to search very hard to show videos of farm animals screeching in pain at the slaughter house.
    you say "screeching in pain" and I wonder what you are watching? there's "protest noises" for sure, but my horses do the same when they are separated from their herd or their buddies, they let out extremely loud "urgent" sounding calls.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    I think the danger here is to think that because logically we can't know if a plant is really more or less sentient then a cow (even though common experience would tell us so in most cases) that therefor because we can't know there is no point to try to "kill kinder" because "who knows" if we are really doing a better thing. And as a result of that we make the decision heavily if not completely determined only by what tastes better. That is not ok IMO. We have to trust our hearts and live as kindly as we sincerely feel we can in our eating habits and in life in general. If we try to limit/reduce anything in life down to simply logic and not what's in our hearts it will always turn to chaos. Logic on its own is dry and never quite conclusive enough when it comes to the higher things in life.
    I'm not so sure we are talking about the same "logic" here..

    LOGIC:
    Quote Logic (from the Ancient Greek: λογική, logike)[1] is the use and study of valid reasoning.[2][3] The study of logic features most prominently in the subjects of philosophy, mathematics, and computer science.

    Logic was studied in several ancient civilizations, including India,[4] China,[5] Persia and Greece. In the West, logic was established as a formal discipline by Aristotle, who gave it a fundamental place in philosophy. The study of logic was part of the classical trivium, which also included grammar and rhetoric. Logic was further extended by Al-Farabi who categorized it into two separate groups (idea and proof). Later, Avicenna revived the study of logic and developed relationship between temporalis and the implication. In the East, logic was developed by Buddhists and Jains.

    Logic is often divided into three parts: inductive reasoning, abductive reasoning, and deductive reasoning.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic


    So it seems to me that this debate can be reduced even further to this:

    should we act/live based on emotion or based on logic.

    and here's what I say to that statement:

    Logic is a tool to help paint a clear picture, Emotion is the color that makes the picture beautiful.

    Don't confuse the spice for the meal, its the meal you are eating, the spice just makes it memorable.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
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  9. Link to Post #125
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    thinking about it more and I felt like the "what about plants having rights then" argument was inevidable to follow. and rightfully so in many respects. But of course we have to kill to live on this plane of exsistance. horrible fact. But I was thinking about a compromise on where to draw the line on what forms of life are given rights. IMHO i think it only natural to base this on how conscious a being is, to the best of our ability to decifer (not perfect I know, but we can only do our best right?), beings which clearly have affection for their young, feel phsyical pain similar to how we feel it, display curriosity and awareness, should be given in my opinion rights of any sentiant being, and certainly the right to its life. And beings, which as far as we can tell, percieve the least levels of pain and least levels of awareness can be used as food. I think this is the best we can do IMO. Would love to hear ideas about where we can draw this line.




    Abhaya, I am glad you addressed this point and I think your conclusion is the best that we can do at this time. I have always been uncomfortable with the fact that we must kill at some level to exist on this planet, but that is the way it is. I think having respect and gratitude for all things that support our life by giving their life energy is essential for me to have any level of internal peace. If I can look at life on earth as a dance and constant exchange and restructuring of life force it makes it easier to deal with. I always remember that at some time in the future I too will make the ultimate payment and contribute my life energy back to its source and it will again be transmuted into many other things and I find that thought comforting.
    well now the discussion has degraded into speciesism; just because we don't understand the plant world very well doesn't mean it deserves an entirely different category of "life"

    it looks like the above argument can be condensed to: life that feels emotion should not be eaten

    and parts of the argument are almost invalidated already, most animals I work with do NOT react to pain as humans do; and to induce "suffering" (which is entirely a mental construct, and doesn't apply to the less cognitively affluent) I've seen horses with injuries that would have humans writhing in pain on the ground & bedridden; yet the horse was fine and didn't even mind extremely invasive cleaning of the wound (I had my hand inside a 8" long laceration, between muscles in her shoulder while trying to wash it out to prevent infection).

    curiosity and "awareness" are tough ones and really you could get into a debate on free will...

    Skip to 1:57:23


    This is a very debatable topic (free will)

    so there's some thoughts






    TargeT, you have summarized my stance in the following statement "Life that feels emotion should not be eaten" I don't feel that was my intent at all. I am acknowledging that most people are required to eat something to live. In no way did I state that plants have emotions nor did I say they suffer. What I do know is that they are alive, they transmute life energy under the direction of dna in the seed into a growing, changing plant. There have been studies that indicate they respond to music, and that they respond to stimuli. I have come to the conclusion that they possess some level of consciousness. I did not say they should not be eaten, merely that I choose to have respect and gratitude for the life that that plant is. I feel I benefit from this attitude in a number of way. If I approach a meal with the attitude of gratitude, I enjoy it more and digest it better. It is difficult to be tense and angry when one has gratitude.

    I do understand that I have personified suffering in the animal world. I do not know for sure what they experience. You, have justified and interpreted what others may interpret as suffering as 'protest noises'. You have a right to interpret anything anyway you want. Do you ever consider you may be attempting to justify your actions in the way you respond to animals? I also wonder if that is why you take such a vitriolic stance on this topic, I really don't see you responding this way on other topics.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Target, Abhaya's "resonates in my heart" statement is no different from your "feelings" about polarity (which I'd enjoy some form of elaboration on). I dare say you experience those "feelings" in your heart, right? If not, where?

    Don't we all want a transition to a more heart-centered world? I appreciate that that phrase could be dismissed as abstract and meaningless when perceived through the eyes of logic, but the heart immediately "resonates" with the expression (I hope) .
    the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated --- Gandhi

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    TargeT, you have summarized my stance in the following statement "Life that feels emotion should not be eaten" I don't feel that was my intent at all.


    Yes, its hard to communicate via text, I was refering mostly to the post that you were refering to, yet somewhat including your response also.. anyway my post was more to the OP and his comment which you were commenting on.. haha

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    I choose to have respect and gratitude for the life that that plant is. I feel I benefit from this attitude in a number of way. If I approach a meal with the attitude of gratitude, I enjoy it more and digest it better. It is difficult to be tense and angry when one has gratitude.
    Yes, this is how I function in this matter also; however I try to also be this way in all of live.

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    I do understand that I have personified suffering in the animal world. I do not know for sure what they experience. You, have justified and interpreted what others may interpret as suffering as 'protest noises'. You have a right to interpret anything anyway you want. Do you ever consider you may be attempting to justify your actions in the way you respond to animals? I also wonder if that is why you take such a vitriolic stance on this topic, I really don't see you responding this way on other topics.
    I'm taking on the mantle of protagonist in this case because Akasha has expressed gratitude at my attempts to further this conversation, it keeps the topic fresh in the minds of those forum members that choose to read this post ( 11 people as I post this). I find "vegans" fascinating in their fervent connection to their belief system (and the various things its based on, though usually its just emotion) but other than that my interest in this topic is pretty low, we all should be free to do (almost always, or maybe always?) as we please as long as the intent is pure.

    and my comment about "protest noises" is due to my intimate relationships with horses that I have from running a horse rescue (currently there are 22 horses under our care in various conditions).

    Also

    I'm a bit of a communication nazi, you labeled my posts here as vitriolic and I'm not sure if you just enjoy using the word or don't understand it's definition.
    Quote vit·ri·ol·ic
    ˌvitrēˈälik/
    adjective
    adjective: vitriolic

    filled with bitter criticism or malice.
    "vitriolic attacks on the politicians"
    hopefully I'm not coming across as bitter or full of malice, that was not my intent.

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Target, Abhaya's "resonates in my heart" statement is no different from your "feelings" about polarity (which I'd enjoy some form of elaboration on). I dare say you experience those "feelings" in your heart, right? If not, where?

    Don't we all want a transition to a more heart-centered world? I appreciate that that phrase could be dismissed as abstract and meaningless when perceived through the eyes of logic, but the heart immediately "resonates" with the expression (I hope) .
    Your are right about my "feelings" on polarity, though I do try my best to verify my ideas with experimentation to clarify and verify that they are valid.

    I trust my intuition, but I try to verify also... (Trust, but verify a favorite quote) I guess this would be my answer to any "heart resonance".
    Last edited by TargeT; 4th September 2014 at 18:55.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Actually I think even to summarize with something like, things which feel emotions should be granted the rights to its own life, is maybe not so far fetched.
    well good, I'm glad I could help refine your stance

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    It's true we can never definitively, through logic, know that plants are not secretly more advanced then other animals. And in fact if you really believe that plants are the more aware conscious species, and that cows and horses feel the least amount of pain and suffering, and therefor to kill them and never pluck a carrot is the kindest way you can sincerely live then you are doing your best.
    Based on my understanding and theories of reality, this is all that matters.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    We cannot ever know anything conclusively through logic.
    I suppose in the context of this particular conversation, at this particular point in time, that statement is correct... however I'd counter with the following statement:

    We cannot ever knowing anything conclusively with out logic.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    We have to trust our hearts to a large extent as to what is the kindest way to live. To me it feels obvious that plant life dosnt have the facility to feel pain terror and suffering like myself or like large seemingly intelligent emotional creatures like a cow. I don't know this because of putting anything under the microscope it just resonates in my heart.
    And in 1810 I bet that it was "obvious" that slaves (generally high melanin content individuals) didn't deserve treatment different from mules either....

    and I don't know what to do with a statement like "resonates in my heart"; your feelings are valid but not overly applicable to a discussion outside of your own head.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    As for horses and cows not feeling pain similar to humans I don't think I can go to far with you on that one. Humans when dealt massive injuries often go into complete numbness due to shock also. And I don't need to search very hard to show videos of farm animals screeching in pain at the slaughter house.
    you say "screeching in pain" and I wonder what you are watching? there's "protest noises" for sure, but my horses do the same when they are separated from their herd or their buddies, they let out extremely loud "urgent" sounding calls.

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    I think the danger here is to think that because logically we can't know if a plant is really more or less sentient then a cow (even though common experience would tell us so in most cases) that therefor because we can't know there is no point to try to "kill kinder" because "who knows" if we are really doing a better thing. And as a result of that we make the decision heavily if not completely determined only by what tastes better. That is not ok IMO. We have to trust our hearts and live as kindly as we sincerely feel we can in our eating habits and in life in general. If we try to limit/reduce anything in life down to simply logic and not what's in our hearts it will always turn to chaos. Logic on its own is dry and never quite conclusive enough when it comes to the higher things in life.
    I'm not so sure we are talking about the same "logic" here..

    LOGIC:
    Quote Logic (from the Ancient Greek: λογική, logike)[1] is the use and study of valid reasoning.[2][3] The study of logic features most prominently in the subjects of philosophy, mathematics, and computer science.

    Logic was studied in several ancient civilizations, including India,[4] China,[5] Persia and Greece. In the West, logic was established as a formal discipline by Aristotle, who gave it a fundamental place in philosophy. The study of logic was part of the classical trivium, which also included grammar and rhetoric. Logic was further extended by Al-Farabi who categorized it into two separate groups (idea and proof). Later, Avicenna revived the study of logic and developed relationship between temporalis and the implication. In the East, logic was developed by Buddhists and Jains.

    Logic is often divided into three parts: inductive reasoning, abductive reasoning, and deductive reasoning.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic


    So it seems to me that this debate can be reduced even further to this:

    should we act/live based on emotion or based on logic.

    and here's what I say to that statement:

    Logic is a tool to help paint a clear picture, Emotion is the color that makes the picture beautiful.

    Don't confuse the spice for the meal, its the meal you are eating, the spice just makes it memorable.

    I have to disagree with you whole heartedly on this statement "We cannot ever knowing anything conclusively with out logic." Logic as we know it on this plane of existence is just the material minds weak attempt at conquering reality. If we rely on logic, as in 1+1=2, to try to understand the highest depths of reality we are like ants trying to understand the depths of society in a metropolis. Logic has it's place as a tool as you stated. It is helpful for things like, I should go to the store before dark or it will be closed. But there is much well outside the flawed logic in our minds. Higher things which even the most accurate logic will always stumble on, will always have a new theory disrupt its peace. Some things will only be known by introspection and trying to connect with source and the intuition brought about by that. As we grow spiritually and move to more subtle realms, the educated guess logic based thought will be replaced by pure intuition and a knowing and sureness that comes direct from source. Questions like what is the kindest way to live and what species are best to be used as food in a system where something has to be used that way, can really only best be known by this higher means of knowing. And even then we are imperfect in this (myself fist and foremost), we still can and should try our best to listen to this intuition. You said your self that you think we should try to live as kindly as we can in our eating habits so if you are sincerely doing and believe in that then we are in total agreement there. Of course this is all only my opinion based on my own hopefully sincere attempts at trusting in my own heart.
    Last edited by Abhaya; 4th September 2014 at 18:16.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    And Target has been one of the main engines to this thread to which I do appreciate . If we watch the threads progression over the pages we see a gradual evolution towards civility on both our parts

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    I think the danger here is to think that because logically we can't know if a plant is really more or less sentient then a cow (even though common experience would tell us so in most cases) that therefor because we can't know there is no point to try to "kill kinder" because "who knows" if we are really doing a better thing. And as a result of that we make the decision heavily if not completely determined only by what tastes better. That is not ok IMO. We have to trust our hearts and live as kindly as we sincerely feel we can in our eating habits and in life in general. If we try to limit/reduce anything in life down to simply logic and not what's in our hearts it will always turn to chaos. Logic on its own is dry and never quite conclusive enough when it comes to the higher things in life.
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Logic is often divided into three parts: inductive reasoning, abductive reasoning, and deductive reasoning.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic


    So it seems to me that this debate can be reduced even further to this:

    should we act/live based on emotion or based on logic.

    and here's what I say to that statement:

    Logic is a tool to help paint a clear picture, Emotion is the color that makes the picture beautiful.

    Don't confuse the spice for the meal, its the meal you are eating, the spice just makes it memorable.
    I think a lot of how we each decide what is more 'important' or equally important (logic vs feeling/emotion/intuition) is based on our personality type. So, I can't expect my reasoning to be more 'logical' than someone else's feelings just as I can't expect my feelings to be more reasonable than someone else's logic. I like combining both logic and feelings to give my two cents. But, again, that's just my personality type talking.

    I feel that plants are closer to 'source' in many ways than the animals. I think they feel in a different way... they are more 'connected', more 'entangled' with everything around them. Like others here, I will not harm/eat animals... I feel they are... too similar to me. I go by my intuition and empathy on that one.

    When it comes to surviving here, I need to eat so I choose to eat plants -- not because I think they are 'less important'. Again, it's more of a feeling that says: we're okay if you eat us so long as you are humble and grateful, and sincerely appreciate and thank everything that sacrifices or gives of itself to keep you alive -- that includes all forms of consciousness in combination with the four elements.

    Maybe this sounds crazy, but I feel that plants are more... forgiving. It's an 'unconditional love' kind of thing.

    My 'logic' and my 'emotion' combined to come up with this point-of-view. For myself, I am happy living within this... ideal.
    "I think, Sebastian, therefore I am."

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Pris (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    I think the danger here is to think that because logically we can't know if a plant is really more or less sentient then a cow (even though common experience would tell us so in most cases) that therefor because we can't know there is no point to try to "kill kinder" because "who knows" if we are really doing a better thing. And as a result of that we make the decision heavily if not completely determined only by what tastes better. That is not ok IMO. We have to trust our hearts and live as kindly as we sincerely feel we can in our eating habits and in life in general. If we try to limit/reduce anything in life down to simply logic and not what's in our hearts it will always turn to chaos. Logic on its own is dry and never quite conclusive enough when it comes to the higher things in life.
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Logic is often divided into three parts: inductive reasoning, abductive reasoning, and deductive reasoning.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic


    So it seems to me that this debate can be reduced even further to this:

    should we act/live based on emotion or based on logic.

    and here's what I say to that statement:

    Logic is a tool to help paint a clear picture, Emotion is the color that makes the picture beautiful.

    Don't confuse the spice for the meal, its the meal you are eating, the spice just makes it memorable.
    I think a lot of how we each decide what is more 'important' or equally important (logic vs feeling/emotion/intuition) is based on our personality type. So, I can't expect my reasoning to be more 'logical' than someone else's feelings just as I can't expect my feelings to be more reasonable than someone else's logic. I like combining both logic and feelings to give my two cents. But, again, that's just my personality type talking.

    I feel that plants are closer to 'source' in many ways than the animals. I think they feel in a different way... they are more 'connected', more 'entangled' with everything around them. Like others here, I will not harm/eat animals... I feel they are... too similar to me. I go by my intuition and empathy on that one.

    When it comes to surviving here, I need to eat so I choose to eat plants -- not because I think they are 'less important'. Again, it's more of a feeling that says: we're okay if you eat us so long as you are humble and grateful, and sincerely appreciate and thank everything that sacrifices or gives of itself to keep you alive -- that includes all forms of consciousness in combination with the four elements.

    Maybe this sounds crazy, but I feel that plants are more... forgiving. It's an 'unconditional love' kind of thing.

    My 'logic' and my 'emotion' combined to come up with this point-of-view. For myself, I am happy living within this... ideal.
    I agree and I also don't see plants as less important then any other life. Just that my intuition tells me that the perfect and equal to all other sparks of consciousness, spark of life, embodied in a plant, feels less pain and suffering, while embodied that way, then a spark of consciousness embodied in higher emotional vessels like humans or dolphins, or horses. And Every spark of life has the potential to move towards perfected 12 dimensional beings and upwards. I love your mood of giving thanks to the plants you eat
    Last edited by Abhaya; 4th September 2014 at 18:34.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    I have to disagree with you whole heartedly on this statement "We cannot ever knowing anything conclusively with out logic." Logic as we know it on this plane of existence is just the material minds weak attempt at conquering reality. If we rely on logic, as in 1+1=2, to try to understand the highest depths of reality we are like ants trying to understand the depths of society in a metropolis. Logic has it's place as a tool as you stated. It is helpful for things like, I should go to the store before dark or it will be closed. But there is much well outside the flawed logic in our minds. Higher things which even the most accurate logic will always stumble on, will always have a new theory disrupt its peace. Some things will only be known by introspection and trying to connect with source and the intuition brought about by that. As we grow spiritually and move to more subtle realms the educate guessing logic based thought will be replaced by pure intuition and a knowing and sureness that comes direct from source. Questions like what is the kindest way to live and what species are best to be used as food in a system where something has to be used that way, can really only best be known by this higher means of knowing. And even then we are imperfect in this in most cases so we can only try our best. However You said your self that you think we should try to live as kindly as we can in our eating habits so if you are sincerely doing and believe in that then we are in total agreement there. Of course this is all only my opinion based on my own hopefully sincere attempts at trusting in my own heart.

    I think you have some hang up on logic, something else is attached there; your not making sense.


    Logic is a method, that's it like putting one foot in front of the other to walk, you can put one foot beside each other when you walk too, but it won't work as well.

    when understanding topics and the validity of them is the task, logic is the tool; its as simple as that... intuition may be a shortcut to knowing validity but honestly intuition should be validated as it seems pretty clear that there are actual outside influences (in a few flavors) that can put even intuition into a questionable category.

    I also think both of us are making a few assumptions that perhaps are not shared, and that further lends to confusion.


    So I'll go ahead and disagree with your "whole hearted" disagreement; unless you can provide a logical reason why logic should not be used (haha, use the tool to disprove itself!) currently your own statements waiver between supporting logic (when you mentioned the "the flawed logic in our minds", which infers that were it not flawed, it would be fine) to completely discounting it "Higher things which even the most accurate logic will always stumble on" yet still these statements hardly make sense, the logic is not flawed, the user of the tool is; and logic never stumbles, the same way a hammer doesn't stumble over a nail, it either is used correctly or its not.

    Now, Logic is not the only thing that is used for thinking, I am functioning off a (novice) understanding of the Trivium and Quadrivium (aka the 7 liberal arts, aka the ONLY way to accurately think)

    for reference, here is the model (and the order is HIGHLY important) I think you will see why my posts are structured as they are (or at lease include what they do) because of my study of this:

    Quote The Seven Liberal Arts And Sciences,

    Which are Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music, and Astronomy, are here illustrated. Grammar is the science which teaches us to express our ideas in appropriate words, which we may afterward beautify and adorn by means of Rhetoric; while Logic instructs us how to think and reason with propriety, and to make language subordinate to thought. Arithmetic, which is the science of computing by numbers, is absolutely essential, not only to a thorough knowledge of all mathematical science, but also to a proper pursuit of our daily avocations. Geometry, or the application of Arithmetic to sensible quantities, is of all sciences the most important, since by it we are enabled to measure and survey the globe that we inhabit. Its principles extend to other spheres; and, occupied in the contemplation and measurement of the sun, moon, and heavenly bodies, constitute the science of Astronomy; and, lastly, when our minds are filled, and our thoughts enlarged, by the contemplation of all the wonders which these sciences open to our view, Music comes forward, to soften our hearts and cultivate our affections by its soothing influences.


    GRAMMAR
    Is the key by which alone the door can be opened to the understanding of speech. It is Grammar which reveals the admirable art of language, and unfolds its various constituent parts—its names, definitions, and respective offices; it unravels, as it were, the thread of which the web of speech is composed. These reflections seldom occur to

    any one before their acquaintance with the art; yet it is most certain that, without a knowledge of Grammar, it is very difficult to speak with propriety, precision, and purity.


    RHETORIC.
    It is by Rhetoric that the art of speaking eloquently is acquired. To be an eloquent speaker, in the proper sense of the word, is far from being either a common or an easy attainment: it is the art of being persuasive and commanding; the art, not only of pleasing the fancy, but of speaking both to the understanding and to the heart.


    LOGIC
    Is that science which directs us how to form clear and distinct ideas of things, and thereby prevents us from being misled by their similitude or resemblance. Of all the human sciences, that concerning man is certainly most worthy of the human mind, and the proper manner of conducting its several powers in the attainment of truth and knowledge. This science ought to be cultivated as the foundation or ground-work of our inquiries; particularly in the pursuit of those sublime principles which claim our attention as Masons.


    ARITHMETIC

    Is the art of numbering, or that part of the mathematics which considers the properties of numbers in general. We have but a very imperfect idea of things without quantity, and as imperfect of quantity itself, without the help of Arithmetic. All the works of the Almighty are made in number, weight, and measure; therefore, to understand them rightly, we ought to understand arithmetical calculations; and the greater advancement we make in the mathematical sciences, the more capable we shall be of considering such things as are the ordinary objects of our conceptions, and be thereby led to a more comprehensive knowledge of our great Creator and the works of the creation.


    GEOMETRY

    Treats of the powers and properties of magnitudes in general, where length, breadth, and thickness are considered—from a point to a line, from a line to a superfices, and from a superfices to a solid.

    A point is the beginning of all geometrical matter.

    A line is a continuation of the same.



    A superfices is length and breadth, without a given thickness.

    A solid is length and breadth, with a given thickness, which forms a cube, and comprehends the whole.
    THE ADVANTAGES OF GEOMETRY.

    By this science, the architect is enabled to construct his plans and execute his designs; the general, to arrange his soldiers; the engineer, to mark out grounds for encampments; the geographer, to give us the dimensions of the world, and all things therein contained; to delineate the extent of seas, and specify the divisions of empires, kingdoms, and provinces. By it, also, the astronomer is enabled to make his observations, and to fix the duration of times and seasons, years and cycles. In fine, Geometry is the foundation of architecture, and the root of the mathematics.

    The contemplation of this science, in a moral and comprehensive view, fills the mind with rapture. To the true geometrician, the regions of matter with which he is surrounded afford ample scope for his admiration, while they open a sublime field for his inquiry and disquisition.

    Every particle of matter on which he treads, every blade of grass which covers the field, every flower which blows, and every infect which wings its way in this expanded space, proves the existence of a First Cause, and yields pleasure to the intelligent mind.

    The symmetry, beauty, and order displayed in the various parts



    of the animate and inanimate creation, is a pleasing and delightful theme, and naturally leads to the source whence the whole is derived. When we bring within the focus of the eye the variegated carpet of the terrestrial theater, and survey the progress of the vegetative system, our admiration is justly excited. Every plant which grows, every flowering shrub which breathes its sweets, affords instruction and delight. When we extend our views to the animal creation, and contemplate the varied clothing of every species, we are equally struck with astonishment. And when we trace the lines of geometry drawn by the Divine pencil in the beautiful plumage of the feathered tribe, how exalted is our conception of the heavenly work! The admirable structure of plants and animals, and the infinite number of fibers and vessels which run through the whole, with the apt disposition of one part to another, is a perpetual subject of study to the geometrician, who, while he adverts to the changes which all undergo in their progress to maturity, is lost in rapture and veneration of the Great Cause which governs the system.

    When he descends into the bowels of the earth, and explores the kingdom of ores, minerals, and fossils, he finds the same instances of Divine Wisdom and Goodness displayed in their formation and structure: every gem and pebble proclaims the handiwork of an Almighty Creator.

    When he surveys the watery elements, and directs his attention to the wonders of the deep, with all the inhabitants of the mighty ocean, he perceives emblems of the same supreme intelligence. The scales of the largest fish, as well as the penciled shell of the minutest bivalve, equally yield a theme for his contemplation, on which he fondly dwells, while the symmetry of their formation, and the delicacy of their tints, evince the wisdom of the Divine Artist.

    When he exalts his view to the more noble and elevated parts of Nature, and surveys the celestial orbs, how much greater is his astonishment! If, on the principles of geometry and true philosophy, he contemplate the sun, the moon, the stars, and the whole concave of heaven, his pride will be humbled, while he is lost in awful admiration of the Maker. The immense magnitude of those bodies, the regularity and velocity of their motions, and the inconceivable extent of space through which they move, are equally wonderful and incomprehensible, so as to baffle his most daring conceptions, while he labors in considering the immensity of the theme!


    MUSIC

    Is that elevated science which affects the passions by sound. There are few who have not felt its charms, and acknowledged its expression to be intelligible to the heart. It is a language of delightful sensations, far more eloquent than words; it breathes to the ear the clearest intimations; it touches and gently agitates the agreeable and sublime passions; it wraps us in melancholy, and elevates us in joy; it dissolves and inflames; it melts us in tenderness, and excites us to war. This science is truly congenial to the nature of man; for by its powerful charms the most discordant passions may be harmonized, and brought into perfect unison; but it never sounds with such seraphic harmony as when employed in singing hymns of gratitude to the Creator of the universe.


    ASTRONOMY

    Is that sublime science which inspires the contemplative mind to soar aloft, and read the wisdom, strength, and beauty of the great Creator in the heavens. How nobly eloquent of the Deity is the celestial hemisphere!—spangled with the most magnificent heralds of his infinite

    Assisted by Astronomy, we ascertain the laws which govern the heavenly bodies, and by which their motions are directed; investigate the power by which they circulate in their orbs, discover their size, determine their distance, explain their various phenomena, and correct the fallacy of the senses by the light of truth.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/gar/gar45.htm



    there is much much more on this topic (an excellent link is in my signature as well) but this is a bit off topic, though still related I think.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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    United States Avalon Member Abhaya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    I have to disagree with you whole heartedly on this statement "We cannot ever knowing anything conclusively with out logic." Logic as we know it on this plane of existence is just the material minds weak attempt at conquering reality. If we rely on logic, as in 1+1=2, to try to understand the highest depths of reality we are like ants trying to understand the depths of society in a metropolis. Logic has it's place as a tool as you stated. It is helpful for things like, I should go to the store before dark or it will be closed. But there is much well outside the flawed logic in our minds. Higher things which even the most accurate logic will always stumble on, will always have a new theory disrupt its peace. Some things will only be known by introspection and trying to connect with source and the intuition brought about by that. As we grow spiritually and move to more subtle realms the educate guessing logic based thought will be replaced by pure intuition and a knowing and sureness that comes direct from source. Questions like what is the kindest way to live and what species are best to be used as food in a system where something has to be used that way, can really only best be known by this higher means of knowing. And even then we are imperfect in this in most cases so we can only try our best. However You said your self that you think we should try to live as kindly as we can in our eating habits so if you are sincerely doing and believe in that then we are in total agreement there. Of course this is all only my opinion based on my own hopefully sincere attempts at trusting in my own heart.

    I think you have some hang up on logic, something else is attached there; your not making sense.


    Logic is a method, that's it like putting one foot in front of the other to walk, you can put one foot beside each other when you walk too, but it won't work as well.

    when understanding topics and the validity of them is the task, logic is the tool; its as simple as that... intuition may be a shortcut to knowing validity but honestly intuition should be validated as it seems pretty clear that there are actual outside influences (in a few flavors) that can put even intuition into a questionable category.

    I also think both of us are making a few assumptions that perhaps are not shared, and that further lends to confusion.


    So I'll go ahead and disagree with your "whole hearted" disagreement; unless you can provide a logical reason why logic should not be used (haha, use the tool to disprove itself!) currently your own statements waiver between supporting logic (when you mentioned the "the flawed logic in our minds", which infers that were it not flawed, it would be fine) to completely discounting it "Higher things which even the most accurate logic will always stumble on" yet still these statements hardly make sense, the logic is not flawed, the user of the tool is; and logic never stumbles, the same way a hammer doesn't stumble over a nail, it either is used correctly or its not.

    Now, Logic is not the only thing that is used for thinking, I am functioning off a (novice) understanding of the Trivium and Quadrivium (aka the 7 liberal arts, aka the ONLY way to accurately think)

    for reference, here is the model (and the order is HIGHLY important) I think you will see why my posts are structured as they are (or at lease include what they do) because of my study of this:

    Quote The Seven Liberal Arts And Sciences,

    Which are Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music, and Astronomy, are here illustrated. Grammar is the science which teaches us to express our ideas in appropriate words, which we may afterward beautify and adorn by means of Rhetoric; while Logic instructs us how to think and reason with propriety, and to make language subordinate to thought. Arithmetic, which is the science of computing by numbers, is absolutely essential, not only to a thorough knowledge of all mathematical science, but also to a proper pursuit of our daily avocations. Geometry, or the application of Arithmetic to sensible quantities, is of all sciences the most important, since by it we are enabled to measure and survey the globe that we inhabit. Its principles extend to other spheres; and, occupied in the contemplation and measurement of the sun, moon, and heavenly bodies, constitute the science of Astronomy; and, lastly, when our minds are filled, and our thoughts enlarged, by the contemplation of all the wonders which these sciences open to our view, Music comes forward, to soften our hearts and cultivate our affections by its soothing influences.


    GRAMMAR
    Is the key by which alone the door can be opened to the understanding of speech. It is Grammar which reveals the admirable art of language, and unfolds its various constituent parts—its names, definitions, and respective offices; it unravels, as it were, the thread of which the web of speech is composed. These reflections seldom occur to

    any one before their acquaintance with the art; yet it is most certain that, without a knowledge of Grammar, it is very difficult to speak with propriety, precision, and purity.


    RHETORIC.
    It is by Rhetoric that the art of speaking eloquently is acquired. To be an eloquent speaker, in the proper sense of the word, is far from being either a common or an easy attainment: it is the art of being persuasive and commanding; the art, not only of pleasing the fancy, but of speaking both to the understanding and to the heart.


    LOGIC
    Is that science which directs us how to form clear and distinct ideas of things, and thereby prevents us from being misled by their similitude or resemblance. Of all the human sciences, that concerning man is certainly most worthy of the human mind, and the proper manner of conducting its several powers in the attainment of truth and knowledge. This science ought to be cultivated as the foundation or ground-work of our inquiries; particularly in the pursuit of those sublime principles which claim our attention as Masons.


    ARITHMETIC

    Is the art of numbering, or that part of the mathematics which considers the properties of numbers in general. We have but a very imperfect idea of things without quantity, and as imperfect of quantity itself, without the help of Arithmetic. All the works of the Almighty are made in number, weight, and measure; therefore, to understand them rightly, we ought to understand arithmetical calculations; and the greater advancement we make in the mathematical sciences, the more capable we shall be of considering such things as are the ordinary objects of our conceptions, and be thereby led to a more comprehensive knowledge of our great Creator and the works of the creation.


    GEOMETRY

    Treats of the powers and properties of magnitudes in general, where length, breadth, and thickness are considered—from a point to a line, from a line to a superfices, and from a superfices to a solid.

    A point is the beginning of all geometrical matter.

    A line is a continuation of the same.



    A superfices is length and breadth, without a given thickness.

    A solid is length and breadth, with a given thickness, which forms a cube, and comprehends the whole.
    THE ADVANTAGES OF GEOMETRY.

    By this science, the architect is enabled to construct his plans and execute his designs; the general, to arrange his soldiers; the engineer, to mark out grounds for encampments; the geographer, to give us the dimensions of the world, and all things therein contained; to delineate the extent of seas, and specify the divisions of empires, kingdoms, and provinces. By it, also, the astronomer is enabled to make his observations, and to fix the duration of times and seasons, years and cycles. In fine, Geometry is the foundation of architecture, and the root of the mathematics.

    The contemplation of this science, in a moral and comprehensive view, fills the mind with rapture. To the true geometrician, the regions of matter with which he is surrounded afford ample scope for his admiration, while they open a sublime field for his inquiry and disquisition.

    Every particle of matter on which he treads, every blade of grass which covers the field, every flower which blows, and every infect which wings its way in this expanded space, proves the existence of a First Cause, and yields pleasure to the intelligent mind.

    The symmetry, beauty, and order displayed in the various parts



    of the animate and inanimate creation, is a pleasing and delightful theme, and naturally leads to the source whence the whole is derived. When we bring within the focus of the eye the variegated carpet of the terrestrial theater, and survey the progress of the vegetative system, our admiration is justly excited. Every plant which grows, every flowering shrub which breathes its sweets, affords instruction and delight. When we extend our views to the animal creation, and contemplate the varied clothing of every species, we are equally struck with astonishment. And when we trace the lines of geometry drawn by the Divine pencil in the beautiful plumage of the feathered tribe, how exalted is our conception of the heavenly work! The admirable structure of plants and animals, and the infinite number of fibers and vessels which run through the whole, with the apt disposition of one part to another, is a perpetual subject of study to the geometrician, who, while he adverts to the changes which all undergo in their progress to maturity, is lost in rapture and veneration of the Great Cause which governs the system.

    When he descends into the bowels of the earth, and explores the kingdom of ores, minerals, and fossils, he finds the same instances of Divine Wisdom and Goodness displayed in their formation and structure: every gem and pebble proclaims the handiwork of an Almighty Creator.

    When he surveys the watery elements, and directs his attention to the wonders of the deep, with all the inhabitants of the mighty ocean, he perceives emblems of the same supreme intelligence. The scales of the largest fish, as well as the penciled shell of the minutest bivalve, equally yield a theme for his contemplation, on which he fondly dwells, while the symmetry of their formation, and the delicacy of their tints, evince the wisdom of the Divine Artist.

    When he exalts his view to the more noble and elevated parts of Nature, and surveys the celestial orbs, how much greater is his astonishment! If, on the principles of geometry and true philosophy, he contemplate the sun, the moon, the stars, and the whole concave of heaven, his pride will be humbled, while he is lost in awful admiration of the Maker. The immense magnitude of those bodies, the regularity and velocity of their motions, and the inconceivable extent of space through which they move, are equally wonderful and incomprehensible, so as to baffle his most daring conceptions, while he labors in considering the immensity of the theme!


    MUSIC

    Is that elevated science which affects the passions by sound. There are few who have not felt its charms, and acknowledged its expression to be intelligible to the heart. It is a language of delightful sensations, far more eloquent than words; it breathes to the ear the clearest intimations; it touches and gently agitates the agreeable and sublime passions; it wraps us in melancholy, and elevates us in joy; it dissolves and inflames; it melts us in tenderness, and excites us to war. This science is truly congenial to the nature of man; for by its powerful charms the most discordant passions may be harmonized, and brought into perfect unison; but it never sounds with such seraphic harmony as when employed in singing hymns of gratitude to the Creator of the universe.


    ASTRONOMY

    Is that sublime science which inspires the contemplative mind to soar aloft, and read the wisdom, strength, and beauty of the great Creator in the heavens. How nobly eloquent of the Deity is the celestial hemisphere!—spangled with the most magnificent heralds of his infinite

    Assisted by Astronomy, we ascertain the laws which govern the heavenly bodies, and by which their motions are directed; investigate the power by which they circulate in their orbs, discover their size, determine their distance, explain their various phenomena, and correct the fallacy of the senses by the light of truth.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/gar/gar45.htm



    there is much much more on this topic (an excellent link is in my signature as well) but this is a bit off topic, though still related I think.
    I am in agreement with you that logic is a tool to be used for task based activities. I gave an example in the post of that also. My point is only that there are somethings which logic as a tool falls short of. You can't use a hammer to paint a masterpiece. These matters (which the op topic touches on) are often only known through more subtle methods, meditation, prayer, introspection what have you. A sort of "I don't know how I know it, but I KNOW this as deeply as I know as I'm alive" results when we open ourselves to what the source wants to tell us. And with this topic I feel we all have to open our hearts to what feels sincerely like the best way we can eat in this world and go with that. No apathy or solely heartless logic based decisions allowed

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    TargeT, you have summarized my stance in the following statement "Life that feels emotion should not be eaten" I don't feel that was my intent at all.


    Yes, its hard to communicate via text, I was refering mostly to the post that you were refering to, yet somewhat including your response also.. anyway my post was more to the OP and his comment which you were commenting on.. haha

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    I choose to have respect and gratitude for the life that that plant is. I feel I benefit from this attitude in a number of way. If I approach a meal with the attitude of gratitude, I enjoy it more and digest it better. It is difficult to be tense and angry when one has gratitude.
    Yes, this is how I function in this matter also; however I try to also be this way in all of live.

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    I do understand that I have personified suffering in the animal world. I do not know for sure what they experience. You, have justified and interpreted what others may interpret as suffering as 'protest noises'. You have a right to interpret anything anyway you want. Do you ever consider you may be attempting to justify your actions in the way you respond to animals? I also wonder if that is why you take such a vitriolic stance on this topic, I really don't see you responding this way on other topics.
    I'm taking on the mantle of protagonist in this case because Akasha has expressed gratitude at my attempts to further this conversation, it keeps the topic fresh in the minds of those forum members that choose to read this post ( 11 people as I post this). I find "vegans" fascinating in their fervent connection to their belief system (and the various things its based on, though usually its just emotion) but other than that my interest in this topic is pretty low, we all should be free to do (almost always, or maybe always?) as we please as long as the intent is pure.

    and my comment about "protest noises" is due to my intimate relationships with horses that I have from running a horse rescue (currently there are 22 horses under our care in various conditions).

    Also

    I'm a bit of a communication nazi, you labeled my posts here as vitriolic and I'm not sure if you just enjoy using the word or don't understand it's definition.
    Quote vit·ri·ol·ic
    ˌvitrēˈälik/
    adjective
    adjective: vitriolic

    filled with bitter criticism or malice.
    "vitriolic attacks on the politicians"
    hopefully I'm not coming across as bitter or full of malice, that was not my intent.

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Target, Abhaya's "resonates in my heart" statement is no different from your "feelings" about polarity (which I'd enjoy some form of elaboration on). I dare say you experience those "feelings" in your heart, right? If not, where?

    Don't we all want a transition to a more heart-centered world? I appreciate that that phrase could be dismissed as abstract and meaningless when perceived through the eyes of logic, but the heart immediately "resonates" with the expression (I hope) .
    Your are right about my "feelings" on polarity, though I do try my best to verify my ideas with experimentation to clarify and verify that they are valid.

    I trust my intuition, but I try to verify also... (Trust, but verify a favorite quote of mine) I guess this would be my answer to any "heart resonance".

    Again, I'm going to go a little word nazi here..


    Targat,


    vitriolic-bitter, scathing, toxic..

    Yeah, some of your comments do feel that way so I stand by that word. But, I also realize this is just a debate..I am glad you have life and passion in your discussions. You did say it yourself, "I'm a bit of a communication nazi"

    Respectfully,

    Pam

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Quote Posted by Pris (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    I think the danger here is to think that because logically we can't know if a plant is really more or less sentient then a cow (even though common experience would tell us so in most cases) that therefor because we can't know there is no point to try to "kill kinder" because "who knows" if we are really doing a better thing. And as a result of that we make the decision heavily if not completely determined only by what tastes better. That is not ok IMO. We have to trust our hearts and live as kindly as we sincerely feel we can in our eating habits and in life in general. If we try to limit/reduce anything in life down to simply logic and not what's in our hearts it will always turn to chaos. Logic on its own is dry and never quite conclusive enough when it comes to the higher things in life.
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Logic is often divided into three parts: inductive reasoning, abductive reasoning, and deductive reasoning.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic


    So it seems to me that this debate can be reduced even further to this:

    should we act/live based on emotion or based on logic.

    and here's what I say to that statement:

    Logic is a tool to help paint a clear picture, Emotion is the color that makes the picture beautiful.

    Don't confuse the spice for the meal, its the meal you are eating, the spice just makes it memorable.
    I think a lot of how we each decide what is more 'important' or equally important (logic vs feeling/emotion/intuition) is based on our personality type. So, I can't expect my reasoning to be more 'logical' than someone else's feelings just as I can't expect my feelings to be more reasonable than someone else's logic. I like combining both logic and feelings to give my two cents. But, again, that's just my personality type talking.

    I feel that plants are closer to 'source' in many ways than the animals. I think they feel in a different way... they are more 'connected', more 'entangled' with everything around them. Like others here, I will not harm/eat animals... I feel they are... too similar to me. I go by my intuition and empathy on that one.

    When it comes to surviving here, I need to eat so I choose to eat plants -- not because I think they are 'less important'. Again, it's more of a feeling that says: we're okay if you eat us so long as you are humble and grateful, and sincerely appreciate and thank everything that sacrifices or gives of itself to keep you alive -- that includes all forms of consciousness in combination with the four elements.

    Maybe this sounds crazy, but I feel that plants are more... forgiving. It's an 'unconditional love' kind of thing.

    My 'logic' and my 'emotion' combined to come up with this point-of-view. For myself, I am happy living within this... ideal.
    I agree and I also don't see plants as less important then any other life. Just that my intuition tells me that the perfect and equal to all other sparks of consciousness, spark of life, embodied in a plant, feels less pain and suffering, while embodied that way, then a spark of consciousness embodied in higher emotional vessels like humans or dolphins, or horses. And Every spark of life has the potential to move towards perfected 12 dimensional beings and upwards. I love your mood of giving thanks to the plants you eat
    Myself, I think that plants feel pain and suffering -- not less than we do -- just differently than we do. Perhaps, they even feel things more intensely than we do because I think they feel/empathize/connect directly with their environment and with other lifeforms within it. There is no separation.
    "I think, Sebastian, therefore I am."

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    No apathy or solely heartless logic based decisions allowed
    Statements like this are at least qualified, but make me think you have some issues with logic that I don't understand.

    Logic has nothing to do with emotion, and yet everything.

    when cooking asparagus, do you focus on the asparagus or the spices?

    would the spices still work with uncooked asparagus?

    Why would you separate the two?

    The fact that I mostly agree with your statements (though I simply apply my understanding differently) doesn't mean that I am uninterested at how you came to those beliefs / feelings; to me the only way to persuade someone is with solid logic, emotion either "resonates" with something that is already there or it is simply dismissed.

    Hopefully you understand that by refining your idea it will be accepted more readily when you offer it to others, that is the main goal in my participation of this thread.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    and my comment about "protest noises" is due to my intimate relationships with horses that I have from running a horse rescue (currently there are 22 horses under our care in various conditions).
    My experience with animals... I have heard screaming from pain and suffering (and fear!) that you cannot mistake for anything else... Sometimes the screaming is silent. I can feel it. It is so heartbreaking... I have held animals in my hands when they were in agony and distress, dying... It's something I will never forget... All I could do was pour my love into them... I felt so helpless.
    Last edited by Pris; 4th September 2014 at 19:22.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)

    TargeT ,


    vitriolic-bitter, scathing, toxic..

    Yeah, some of your comments do feel that way so I stand by that word. But, I also realize this is just a debate..I am glad you have life and passion in your discussions. You did say it yourself, "I'm a bit of a communication nazi"

    Respectfully,

    Pam

    Who I am today is not who I was yesterday.

    This inconsistency can be frustrating, but can only be solved if we stop learning and growing; this thread spans months of time, do not hold the current expression of "me" too harshly accountable for the previous, less experienced expressions of "me" that came before...

    You may have seen a bit of my emotional body slip loose the limits I've placed on it; generally a rare occurrence for me.

    EDIT:

    I just reviewed the thread, not that many posts and no toxic, hate or vitriol at all that I could see...

    so I'm a bit confused (though honestly I was confused at the start)
    Last edited by TargeT; 4th September 2014 at 19:39.
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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    To me it doesn't feel good eating animals because I know what kind of monotonous, unloving lives they have had in this industrialized society. The animals are here to experience this world just as much as we are. They were meant to roam free just as we are.

    Does this mean I'm against eating meat all together? No, Imagine a society where all animals are free to go into nature, or live close to humans in a more friendly manner. Where there's a natural exchange in the things humans can benefit from animals and the other way around. And then finally when the animal is old and dies naturally, it offers its final gift, its body, as a thank you for a nice life. Now this offer I would except...
    Last edited by Skyhaven; 4th September 2014 at 20:28.

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    Default Re: Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

    Quote Posted by Skyhaven (here)
    To me it doesn't feel good eating animals because I know what kind of monotonous, unloving lives they have had in this industrialized society. The animals are here to experience this world just as much as we are. They were meant to roam free just as we are.

    Does this mean I'm against eating meat all together? No, Imagine a society where all animals are free to go into nature, or live close to humans in a more friendly manner. Where there's a natural exchange in the things humans can benefit from animals and the other way around. And then finally when the animal is old and dies naturally, it offers its final gift, its body, as a thank you for a nice life. Now this offer I would except...
    Unless the animal looks at me and says, "I'm about to croak... if you'd like, go ahead and eat me after I die..."? No, I still wouldn't do it.

    This reminds me of a scene from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe".

    Last edited by Pris; 4th September 2014 at 21:47.
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