Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

[TargeT]

Posted by Pris (here)
This reminds me of a scene from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe".

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=h4GAuuBbb3w

Uhhh...

was that a TV show? That sure seemed like some beautifully executed propaganda.

you see, with out reason, this appeal to emotion (that the video you posted exhibits) matches exactly the logical fallacy it is named for.... (Appeal to emotion).


I often lament at the lack of teaching that modern countries have, the Trivium and Quadrivum (critical thinking, the 7 liberal arts) used to be taught to everyone until the romans took over, the planet has not been the same since.

[Abhaya]

I dono I thought that vid was pretty funny. If anything it shows how people in general need the disconnect from where their food comes from in order to enjoy it without guilt. And unfortunately our society provides that with the greatest precision. It's against the law to even take pics in a slaughter house. We can't let people see! after all then they won't buy the meat!

[Pris]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
This reminds me of a scene from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe".

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=h4GAuuBbb3w

Uhhh...

was that a TV show? That sure seemed like some beautifully executed propaganda.

you see, with out reason, this appeal to emotion (that the video you posted exhibits) matches exactly the logical fallacy it is named for.... (Appeal to emotion).


I often lament at the lack of teaching that modern countries have, the Trivium and Quadrivum (critical thinking, the 7 liberal arts) used to be taught to everyone until the romans took over, the planet has not been the same since.

I don't quite follow you. You are so very... cerebral.

This is just a scene from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' based off the hugely popular sci-fi novel. As far as scenes go, this one is by far the most memorable for me. I find it amusing because it is so disturbing. It is so ironic...

[Skyhaven]

Posted by Pris (here)

Posted by Skyhaven (here)
To me it doesn't feel good eating animals because I know what kind of monotonous, unloving lives they have had in this industrialized society. The animals are here to experience this world just as much as we are. They were meant to roam free just as we are.

Does this mean I'm against eating meat all together? No, Imagine a society where all animals are free to go into nature, or live close to humans in a more friendly manner. Where there's a natural exchange in the things humans can benefit from animals and the other way around. And then finally when the animal is old and dies naturally, it offers its final gift, its body, as a thank you for a nice life. Now this offer I would except...

Unless the animal looks at me and says, "I'm about to croak... if you'd like, go ahead and eat me after I die..."? No, I still wouldn't do it.

This reminds me of a scene from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe".

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=h4GAuuBbb3w

At first it sounds a bit repulsing, especially if you knew the animal, but should we really be repulsed? Isn't this some kind of conditioning? You can choose to put it in the ground and go there once in a while, thinking about what the animal meant to you, or you can absorb and merge with its energy fully, so that the animal becomes literally a part of you...

[TargeT]

Posted by Pris (here)

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
This reminds me of a scene from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe".

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=h4GAuuBbb3w

Uhhh...

was that a TV show? That sure seemed like some beautifully executed propaganda.

you see, with out reason, this appeal to emotion (that the video you posted exhibits) matches exactly the logical fallacy it is named for.... (Appeal to emotion).


I often lament at the lack of teaching that modern countries have, the Trivium and Quadrivum (critical thinking, the 7 liberal arts) used to be taught to everyone until the romans took over, the planet has not been the same since.

I don't quite follow you. You are so very... cerebral.

This is just a scene from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' based off the hugely popular sci-fi novel. As far as scenes go, this one is by far the most memorable for me. I find it amusing because it is so disturbing. It is so ironic...

I'm a huge fan of the book and the movie (real movie) I have no idea what that clip was from, it certainly fits with the British style of humor but the actors are unfamiliar and so is the scene. Basically, I don't recognize it. And you are right, that is a disturbing clip, yet it is very close to what we have done with cattle: Selective breeding to produce the best food/animal.

You should see what they have done here on my island, we have a carefully bred cattle that disease resistant and is both a "beef" and "milk" producer (which is not seen normally); the Senepol.

the other bit I was speaking of is the lack of critical thinking education in public schooling, Critical thinking used to be the core of education (and it was split into two parts, first the Trivium, and then the Quadrivium also called the 7 liberal arts).

[Pris]

Posted by TargeT (here)

I'm a huge fan of the book and the movie (real movie) I have no idea what that clip was from, it certainly fits with the British style of humor but the actors are unfamiliar and so is the scene. Basically, I don't recognize it. And you are right, that is a disturbing clip, yet it is very close to what we have done with cattle: Selective breeding to produce the best food/animal.

You should see what they have done here on my island, we have a carefully bred cattle that disease resistant and is both a "beef" and "milk" producer (which is not seen normally); the Senepol.

the other bit I was speaking of is the lack of critical thinking education in public schooling, Critical thinking used to be the core of education (and it was split into two parts, first the Trivium, and then the Quadrivium also called the 7 liberal arts).

Yes, of course! It's all very disturbing. This is one reason why I do not eat meat.

Ahhh. Critical thinking. Gotcha.

Btw, here's a link with copy (from the book) from the scene with the cow in 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe':

http://remotestorage.blogspot.ca/201...nts-to-be.html

[Pris]

Posted by Skyhaven (here)

At first it sounds a bit repulsing, especially if you knew the animal, but should we really be repulsed? Isn't this some kind of conditioning? You can choose to put it in the ground and go there once in a while, thinking about what the animal meant to you, or you can absorb and merge with its energy fully, so that the animal becomes literally a part of you...

I just have a funny feeling that eating animal flesh is very baaad for you (on an energetic/vibrational level...). It's kind of like wanting to stick your fingers into the blades of a running fan just to see what will happen even though you know it's probably not a good idea.

[TargeT]

Posted by Pris (here)
I just have a funny feeling that eating animal flesh is very baaad for you (on an energetic/vibrational level...). It's kind of like wanting to stick your fingers into the blades of a running fan just to see what will happen even though you know it's probably not a good idea.

I'm just baffled that you have this feeling about animals, but not plants. The distinction is completely lost to me and I ASSUME (almost always a bad thing todo) that it is emotion based and HIGHLY influnced by Anthropomorphism

This also is intimently tied to your belief (spiritual or other wise..) in the nature/structure of reality.

Are we all individual life forms with no connection to each other? (we pretty much know this is not the case)

Are we god/source/crist/alah/<your-favorite-diety-name-here> splintered into trillions of pieces here to observe our selves subjectively?

granted these are polarized options, I do recognize the shades of grey in between, but holding either one of those beliefs will influence this topic to a great degree.


I am of the latter persuasion, and have started a thread to help start prove that this IS the case and not just an opinion.

This theory of reality is widely held, for example here's some music based on it:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=VH-8pJrDIsU

so maybe this discussion should really be about the nature of reality, and not the minutia of how we choose to power these meatsuits we use to navigate this game we decided to play.

[Pris]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
I just have a funny feeling that eating animal flesh is very baaad for you (on an energetic/vibrational level...). It's kind of like wanting to stick your fingers into the blades of a running fan just to see what will happen even though you know it's probably not a good idea.

I'm just baffled that you have this feeling about animals, but not plants. The distinction is completely lost to me and I ASSUME (almost always a bad thing todo) that it is emotion based and HIGHLY influnced by Anthropomorphism

This also is intimently tied to your belief (spiritual or other wise..) in the nature/structure of reality.

Are we all individual life forms with no connection to each other? (we pretty much know this is not the case)

Are we god/source/crist/alah/<your-favorite-diety-name-here> splintered into trillions of pieces here to observe our selves subjectively?

granted these are polarized options, I do recognize the shades of grey in between, but holding either one of those beliefs will influence this topic to a great degree.


I am of the latter persuasion, and have started a thread to help start prove that this IS the case and not just an opinion.

This theory of reality is widely held, for example here's some music based on it:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=VH-8pJrDIsU

so maybe this discussion should really be about the nature of reality, and not the minutia of how we choose to power these meatsuits we use to navigate this game we decided to play.

Heck yes! Anthropomorphism. Sure, why not. But, I do that to plants and rocks etc., too, so I don't think I'm discriminating.

I just think that plants are more... forgiving. They are closer to 'source' in my opinion. I also think their vibration is higher than ours (as opposed to our densed-down meat-flesh). That is why, if you must eat something, they are probably the better 'choice'.

For myself, I needed to make a choice. And, just from my own experience, having eaten meat, I feel much better for not eating it -- mentally and physically. I am much healthier without meat in my diet. But, I'm sure you don't want me to go into the 'minutia' of that.

Many have said that eating meat seems to interfere with the ability to have OBEs. I pay attention to stuff like that.

We have the intestines of an herbivore.

And, there's monks.

Fruitarianism is interesting. Many plants make fruit that is meant to be eaten so their seeds can get spread around, mixed with compost and so on. That's a nice... relationship.

There's Breatharianism. That's fascinating, but I don't know much about it yet.

Posted by TargeT (here)
so maybe this discussion should really be about the nature of reality, and not the minutia of how we choose to power these meatsuits we use to navigate this game we decided to play.

Every time I press a key on my keyboard and I see the 'result' on the computer screen in front of me, I am reminded of this 'nature of reality'.

I'm still not entirely convinced I 'decided' to play this game.

I love minutia.

[TargeT]

Posted by Pris (here)
Heck yes! Anthropomorphism. Sure, why not. But, I do that to plants and rocks etc., too, so I don't think I'm discriminating.

I just think that plants are more... forgiving. They are closer to 'source' in my opinion. I also think their vibration is higher than ours (as opposed to our densed-down meat-flesh). That is why, if you must eat something, they are probably the better 'choice'.

For myself, I needed to make a choice. And, just from my own experience, having eaten meat, I feel much better for not eating it -- mentally and physically. I am much healthier without meat in my diet. But, I'm sure you don't want me to go into the 'minutia' of that.

Many have said that eating meat seems to interfere with the ability to have OBEs. I pay attention to stuff like that.

Your experience is completely unique to you, I'm glad things are working out for you and will vehemently oppose you (the proverbial you, not directed at anyone in particular) trying to force your experience on others especially if you are using the shame/blame/guilt tactic that often happens with emotion based topics; I have tried through out this entire thread to get some logic/facts non-emotion based information so that the case of veganism can be presented in a non-manipulative way.

If I am correct about the nature of reality, we are an infinitely powerful creative force. If you truly believe something it will happen for you even if it slightly bends the rules of the "game" and this has also been proven over and over via Placebo tests.

Posted by Pris (here)
We have the intestines of an herbivore.

Says who?

we have the perfect omnivore set up, in fact better than any other omnivore out there, we have the large intestine which is similar to carnivores and a nice long small intestine similar to herbivors, plus the extra length of our tract is much more efficient at drawing out the things we need since we produce hardly any of it on our own (unlike most animals that at least produce a little Vit C etc...)

Anything you've seen on that is pure conjecture, and our closest relatives are omnivores also; seems like that one falls a bit flat.

Posted by Pris (here)
And, there's monks.

Fruitarianism is interesting. Many plants make fruit that is meant to be eaten so their seeds can get spread around, mixed with compost and so on. That's a nice... relationiship.

There's Breatharianism. That's fascinating, but I don't know much about it yet.

Posted by TargeT (here)
so maybe this discussion should really be about the nature of reality, and not the minutia of how we choose to power these meatsuits we use to navigate this game we decided to play.

Every time I press a key on my keyboard and I see the 'result' on the computer screen in front of me, I am reminded of this 'nature of reality'.

I'm still not entirely convinced I 'decided' to play this game.

I love minutia.

the most important part of this game is to forget what we are so we can subjectively learn about ourselves, if that is in fact the case.

[Akasha]

A few years back my partner was baby-sitting two young sisters. They'd just been watching Finding Nemo and now it was time for tea. She laid out some salmon and veg' for them at which point the parents came back and prompted their older daughter to eat her fish to which she retorted defiantly, "salmon's not a fish!" When her remark had been satisfactorily corrected she became more than a little upset.

One of the reasons I started this thread was because I was thinking about how different we would be as a collective if the parental meat trick had never been played on us.

With the vast majority of children preferring to make friends with what their parents would rather they regarded as dinner, the meat trick is inevitably going to be traumatic once the trivium (there you go, T) has been applied to the situation and there is now no escaping the fact that they have, perhaps for some time, been eating what they would have naturally considered their friends.

What effect does such a horrific realisation have on the mind of the young individual concerned? Is it possible that certain alters are created at the point of such a realisation? Alters that condone what has just happened in an effort to manage the cognitive dissonance which the child is now and possibly for the first time experiencing?

Would that alter come into play later in their lives when they are forced to tolerate, let's say, a multinational's latest display of ecological belligerence or even their nation's aggressive foreign policy?

Perhaps more importantly, would that aggressive foreign policy even be aggressive if the meat trick had never been played?

Maybe I'm wrong to extrapolate like that. I don't know.


BTW thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. This thread is testament to the notion that Avalon can have an ongoing conversation on this kind of subject without it degenerating in to the previously inevitable food fight.

[TargeT]

Posted by Akasha (here)
One of the reasons I started this thread was because I was thinking about how different we would be as a collective if the parental meat trick had never been played on us.

is that a common thing in Hungary? I've never heard of that before; haha, my mom did something similar with me but it was an ice cream/yogurt thing ( she told me for years that yogurt was ice cream, eventually, of course I found out & it did stick with me, that kind of "trickery" / fraud is very hard to get over).

I'm not so sure if bad parenting is solely an issue centered around meat consumption, though I now see that there is some of it.I agree that things would be much different with better parenting, but again; it's far broader than this small subject. (which seems to boil down to: what life your "ok" with ending for "food" purposes)

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)
One of the reasons I started this thread was because I was thinking about how different we would be as a collective if the parental meat trick had never been played on us.

is that a common thing in Hungary?

Absolutely not! Hungary really likes it's meat.....and has the health statistics to prove it!

Posted by TargeT (here)
I'm not so sure if bad parenting is solely an issue centered around meat consumption, though I now see that there is some of it.I agree that things would be much different with better parenting, but again; it's far broader than this small subject. (which seems to boil down to: what life your "ok" with ending for "food" purposes)

To be clear I'm not suggesting anything about parenting. Most parents love their kids and make decisions with what they consider their best interests at heart.
I appreciate that.

With regard to small subjects, is this really that small?

[TargeT]

Posted by Akasha (here)

With regard to small subjects, is this really that small?

yes, yes it's quite small.

In just the licence plates, 3.3 billion bugs are killed per month. The front of the car is at least forty times as large as the surface of the plate. This means that cars hit around 133 billion insects every month. In half a year, that is 800 billion insects.

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/trill...ays-study.html
http://www.natuurbericht.nl/?id=6306

that's just from our cars, how many insects kill other instects, how many animals kill other animals every day? Life is constant chaos except where we impose our will and create calmness (usually by killing or dominating everything, "spraying" for bugs, leaving traps for animals or just destroying the larger animal habitats.. we work hard to create peace ( just to mess even that up by fighting with ourselves for one reason or another)).

do you know the kind of impact just having a "house and a yard" is to smaller ecosystems? introducing a foreign species (cat or dog, both predictors) to a setting and giving it unheard of advantages over the native "wild life". Simply by using power you are a part of this, and if you look at nature, it fits the pattern, simply changing the scale of something does not change what it is at its core.

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)

With regard to small subjects, is this really that small?

yes, yes it's quite small.

In just the licence plates, 3.3 billion bugs are killed per month. The front of the car is at least forty times as large as the surface of the plate. This means that cars hit around 133 billion insects every month. In half a year, that is 800 billion insects.

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/trill...ays-study.html
http://www.natuurbericht.nl/?id=6306....

Whilst the insect death by car figures may be higher, the sheer mass of dead flesh is nowhere near. I guess technically it would be closer to involuntary manslaughter rather than murder at the karmic level...and they died free too if that counts. It's certainly a card which has been played with regard to hunting.

[Pris]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)

With regard to small subjects, is this really that small?

yes, yes it's quite small.

This is certainly not a small subject, and thanks for the reminder, Akasha.

[donk]

“Bad parenting” is too general an idea, the problem lies (pun intended) in the “little white lies” we have accepted as being “good” within our culture. This leads to MINDLESS consumption.

If we were taught to think, in this case—what it is we are actually eating, this wouldn’t be an emotionally charged topic.

Calling it “meat” (or even “vegetables”) without qualifying that we are eating living conscious beings is as “bad” in my mind as raising them to believe a magical being comes once a year with loot based on your naughty or niceness…or that a fairy comes and pays you for your teeth. It seems harmless, but is the basis for mindlessly accepting authority’s most outlandish bullsh!t, leading to less conscious life

To TargeT’s point on differentiating the value of life…I have come to a sort of empathy about eating mammals. I feel that as one, I can relate to them, and therefore have more emotional issues of my inability to stop consuming them. I understand that you need to consume life in order to continue yours…and that at a certain level a bug’s life is no less “valuable” than any other, but for my soul, bugs, plants, fish, birds…maybe reptiles, feel like a more soul nourishing “food” to me than the cows and pigs I have grown to love consuming.

I know there is no “right answer” to the dilemma/paradox, but I thinking that thinking about it is important, thanks for the thread. We should really bless our food, be grateful for the sacred life energy that it gives us, whatever it be. Maybe it’s better to not eat “our own”, at least that’s my reality at the moment

[Abhaya]

Posted by Akasha (here)
A few years back my partner was baby-sitting two young sisters. They'd just been watching Finding Nemo and now it was time for tea. She laid out some salmon and veg' for them at which point the parents came back and prompted their older daughter to eat her fish to which she retorted defiantly, "salmon's not a fish!" When her remark had been satisfactorily corrected she became more than a little upset.

One of the reasons I started this thread was because I was thinking about how different we would be as a collective if the parental meat trick had never been played on us.

With the vast majority of children preferring to make friends with what their parents would rather they regarded as dinner, the meat trick is inevitably going to be traumatic once the trivium (there you go, T) has been applied to the situation and there is now no escaping the fact that they have, perhaps for some time, been eating what they would have naturally considered their friends.

What effect does such a horrific realisation have on the mind of the young individual concerned? Is it possible that certain alters are created at the point of such a realisation? Alters that condone what has just happened in an effort to manage the cognitive dissonance which the child is now and possibly for the first time experiencing?

Would that alter come into play later in their lives when they are forced to tolerate, let's say, a multinational's latest display of ecological belligerence or even their nation's aggressive foreign policy?

Perhaps more importantly, would that aggressive foreign policy even be aggressive if the meat trick had never been played?

Maybe I'm wrong to extrapolate like that. I don't know.


BTW thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. This thread is testament to the notion that Avalon can have an ongoing conversation on this kind of subject without it degenerating in to the previously inevitable food fight.

Very nice. Reminds me of this video, a must watch, as this child brings his mother to tears with such simple feeling/logic that IMO is inherent in most children before it becomes a rational cerebral juggling in our adult minds.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=tQIMJ648qgg

[Pris]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
Heck yes! Anthropomorphism. Sure, why not. But, I do that to plants and rocks etc., too, so I don't think I'm discriminating.

I just think that plants are more... forgiving. They are closer to 'source' in my opinion. I also think their vibration is higher than ours (as opposed to our densed-down meat-flesh). That is why, if you must eat something, they are probably the better 'choice'.

For myself, I needed to make a choice. And, just from my own experience, having eaten meat, I feel much better for not eating it -- mentally and physically. I am much healthier without meat in my diet. But, I'm sure you don't want me to go into the 'minutia' of that.

Many have said that eating meat seems to interfere with the ability to have OBEs. I pay attention to stuff like that.

Your experience is completely unique to you, I'm glad things are working out for you and will vehemently oppose you (the proverbial you, not directed at anyone in particular) trying to force your experience on others especially if you are using the shame/blame/guilt tactic that often happens with emotion based topics; I have tried through out this entire thread to get some logic/facts non-emotion based information so that the case of veganism can be presented in a non-manipulative way.

The case for veganism has been presented in a non-manipulative way IMO. Perhaps it is you who is allowing emotion to cloud the facts.

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
We have the intestines of an herbivore.

Says who?

we have the perfect omnivore set up, in fact better than any other omnivore out there, we have the large intestine which is similar to carnivores and a nice long small intestine similar to herbivors, plus the extra length of our tract is much more efficient at drawing out the things we need since we produce hardly any of it on our own (unlike most animals that at least produce a little Vit C etc...)

Anything you've seen on that is pure conjecture, and our closest relatives are omnivores also; seems like that one falls a bit flat.

If we're omnivores, which omnivores cook their meat like we do?

Btw, I don't think McDonald's would be very popular if it served raw meat burgers -- although, I know that there are people that do eat raw meat.

'Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.' I'm completely convinced we can get by healthfully without eating meat. So, why not? If someone like me has a 'problem' with eating meat for a myriad of valid reasons, what's the beef? What's important is for everyone to make up their own minds from all the information -- including opinions -- that is available.

Back to the topic of the thread, in my experience interacting with people, the ones who care about the welfare of animals are generally more compassionate all around.

[Robin]

I was hesitant to post on this thread for a long while after seeing the conversation take place, but I feel the need to.

How can humans ever come together in unification and evolve to a higher state of being if we cannot come to an agreement on the issue of what is the best food stuff to put into our bodies to create the most sustainable, ethical, healthy, and spiritual way-of-life possible for our existence and evolution?

If we cannot agree on this, then there is no way we will evolve and break the chains from this control structure.

I find it extremely silly that humans think eating animal products is necessary for well-being. Sure, it is one way to exist and to evolve, but it is not the best, quickest, and most efficient way. I truly do think that the word "silly" is the best adjective to apply to omnivores, as the information to suggest eating animal products is not the best route for one to take is astronomical.

I even think that it is silly to have to fully explain this philosophically, ethically, factually, objectively, spiritually, and even provide witness testimonial of E.T. experiencers/contactees.

Avalon is full of the brightest, most aware individuals on this planet, but this subject is still heavily contested. It is contested vehemently, no different than the average human on this planet denying 9/11 being an inside job. How is this the case, and why do people get so emotional and defensive about this?

I think that some people have made the decision a long time ago to include animals as a part of their way-of-life, to the point where they feel that it is too late to admit that they have overlooked the objective nature of veganism being a more efficient way to exist and evolve. Especially for those involved in the Truth movement...they have amassed a huge understanding of the nature of reality to the point where they get angry when compared to the level of an unaware individual. As soon as you say that they are still holding onto a paradigm that has purposely been created to hinder humans, their stubbornness triggers emotions that makes them defend themselves, lest they feel like the person who is unaware in this world.

I know this comment is going to receive a huge backlash, which again, I will think is silly.