Does Our Treatment of Animals Affect How We Treat Each Other?

[donk]

It's programming, Sam. Program to defend sensual experiences we've learned are the best ones possible. With strong emotional attachment, zero mindfulness.

It's difficult to convince someone to be truly honest and think, even more difficult to convince them thinking differently MIGHT just be "better" for them.

Life's short. Devouring bovine and swine flesh can feel heavenly (especially in the moment, and sometimes even the regret), sucking sauced up poultry off the bone can be divine, relishing the sensation of raw fish in your mouth can be erotic...the instant gratification can only be that wonderful when you're lying to yourself about what actually is you are consuming...not being able to empathize with the "victim", not imagine you could ever be food yourself...

[TargeT]

Posted by donk (here)
It's programming, Sam. Program to defend sensual experiences we've learned are the best ones possible. With strong emotional attachment, zero mindfulness.

It's difficult to convince someone to be truly honest and think, even more difficult to convince them thinking differently MIGHT just be "better" for them.

Life's short. Devouring bovine and swine flesh can feel heavenly (especially in the moment, and sometimes even the regret), sucking sauced up poultry off the bone can be divine, relishing the sensation of raw fish in your mouth can be erotic...the instant gratification can only be that wonderful when you're lying to yourself about what actually is you are consuming...not being able to empathize with the "victim", not imagine you could ever be food yourself...

I'll tell you what, the NY strip with bacon and blue cheese crumbles I had to night was MAGNIFICIANT, HEAVENLY! and I still had empathy for the cow that was pulled from the gorgeous 300 acre cattle farm too soon & graced my plate for sustenance. You see Empathy is not Sympathy.

em·pa·thy
ˈempəTHē/Submit
noun
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

Aside from knowing what kind of life that cow led, I also know what kind of life he DID NOT lead, he was not fed poison (Corn and Corn by products) to unaturally "marble" his flesh and cause systemic ulceration of the gastrointestinal tract. He did not have to ever feel the fear of a predator stalking the heard and taking out his loved ones (often beginning to consume them immediately). His life did end before cellular failure but his life was lived in a vastly different way than possible outside of the cattle ranch here on this Island.

Cattle as we know it today is vastly different than pre-domestication; think about the power of that 1ton+ animal and the herd mentality meant they always came in numbers.... unfortunately that feral cattle breed almost no longer exists today.

Today cattle are generally in a symbiotic relationship with humans as are much of our food stalk and pet animals.


I empathize completely with the food I eat, I don't sympathize.

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)
.....the NY strip with bacon and blue cheese crumbles I had to night was MAGNIFICIANT, HEAVENLY! and I still had empathy for the cow that was pulled from the gorgeous 300 acre cattle farm too soon & graced my plate for sustenance. You see Empathy is not Sympathy.

em·pa·thy
ˈempəTHē/Submit
noun
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

How are you able to "share the feelings" of that which is being slaughtered without actually being slaughtered yourself?

[TargeT]

Posted by Akasha (here)
How are you able to "share the feelings" of that which is being slaughtered without actually being slaughtered yourself?

A stunbolt gun causes a complete loss of consciousness instantly before slaughter. I too have been "knocked unconscious" though mine was a bit more brutal as it was done with fists and knees and took more than 1 quick strike.

[Pris]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)
How are you able to "share the feelings" of that which is being slaughtered without actually being slaughtered yourself?

A stunbolt gun causes a complete loss of consciousness instantly before slaughter. I too have been "knocked unconscious" though mine was a bit more brutal as it was done with fists and knees and took more than 1 quick strike.

How often does this 'technique' work exactly as intended? Where there is death, animals sense it, and they will feel fear.

How does one define 'ideal conditions' for pre-slaughter? How is killing deliberately on any level -- in particular for food purposes -- considered 'humane'?

I want to live and do not want to be killed.

Empathy... is lacking here.

[TargeT]

Posted by Pris (here)
How often does this 'technique' work exactly as intended? Where there is death, animals sense it, and they will feel fear.

How does one define 'ideal conditions' for pre-slaughter? How is killing deliberately on any level -- in particular for food purposes -- considered 'humane'?

Nothing is perfect, that's for sure; and if you are speaking of large scale slaughter houses that are the trade mark of big agriculture, then I agree; those places are terrible.

Posted by Pris (here)
I want to live and do not want to be killed.

Empathy... is lacking here.

Yeah? because I don't ignore the BILLIONS of LIVING creatures that die every day, a lot of the statements I see in this thread seem to indicate that their authors have just categorized life in nice little boxes, and if your too small or not cute enough you are no longer "alive" and there for you living or dieing is irrelevant.

I like to take a look at the bigger picture and realize the intricate dance we living things act out with each other, how we are all interconnected and how all life is precious and rare, even those some choose to callously end (or gratefully end).

My compassion and empathy encompass the plants, insects and other forms of life that are disturbed (and some times terminated) due to my existence.


the view point that only certain animals "need apply" to compassion and empathy seems very hypocritical and, well very human; especially when you throw stones at someone else's house because they didn't agree to a strange view of the world.




Life is either precious (and it is) or its not, there's really little to no room for a middle ground on this topic.

[Abhaya]

I am beginning to think that this subject as a rational debate is actually hopeless. A seemingly better argument can be placed one after another on either side of the debate endlessly. That is the problem with logic when it comes to matters of the heart it is always inconclusive. This back and forth will maybe only make observers decide that there is no way to know how to really live and eat kinder and possibly lead to apathy in their eating choices due to the logical conundrum.
I think the only way to spread this ideology successfully is to neutrally put out the truth about where our food comes from and how animals suffer and to know that for those who are attuned to the message it will strike a cord in their heart. I for one can say that's how I converted. It wasn't someone defeating my logic and me giving in. I saw the truth of the suffering and my inner being knew with out a doubt that I wanted not to do with that. I leapt towards that idea when I heard it. Others I'm sure had similar experiences. Almost like remembering a pattern from a past life even. Others this will not resonate with at this time and that's ok it cannot be forced and maybe they will go down this road later or maybe they are going a different way in that respect that's ok to. We all have our paths.

[Skyhaven]

Posted by Abhaya (here)
I am beginning to think that this subject as a rational debate is actually hopeless. A seemingly better argument can be placed one after another on either side of the debate endlessly. That is the problem with logic when it comes to matters of the heart it is always inconclusive. This back and forth will maybe only make observers decide that there is no way to know how to really live and eat kinder and possibly lead to apathy in their eating choices due to the logical conundrum.
I think the only way to spread this ideology successfully is to neutrally put out the truth about where our food comes from and how animals suffer and to know that for those who are attuned to the message it will strike a cord in their heart. I for one can say that's how I converted. It wasn't someone defeating my logic and me giving in. I saw the truth of the suffering and my inner being knew with out a doubt that I wanted not to do with that. I leapt towards that idea when I heard it. Others I'm sure had similar experiences. Almost like remembering a pattern from a past life even. Others this will not resonate with at this time and that's ok it cannot be forced and maybe they will go down this road later or maybe they are going a different way in that respect that's ok to. We all have our paths.

My thoughts exactly: this is a matter of the heart for me, not a matter of logic.

[Abhaya]

I think more feeling images of animals showing emotion. Inspirational stories of health benefits for a vegan diet. Sad stories of animals and their slaughter house fates. These kinds of messages need to be continually put out (in a non argumentative non blaming way) as the slaughter industry would surely like them suppressed. So that those who are waiting to and ready for this knowledge will have the opportunity to hear it.

Note all these vids are extremely short so they won't take up much of your time. I hope others can add some of their favorites too.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4-KWmaOIDZI

I'll start it off with this smart little guy. I think that some will be apposed to looking at videos like these at all others will be curious and others it will resonate deeply with them. Good to have it out there either way for those who are just waiting to make the change even if they don't fully know it yet

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HZNQdu0BhI8

These cows are so peaceful in this video.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=P8ghfObrzoQ

Not so different from cuddling up to our own loved ones is it

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ucHEVNX2c9o

Amazing health transformations and even super athlete on a vegan diet

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=LHNC78zy1SI

And finally a glimpse at the hard truth that the big corp slaughter literally tries to make illegal for us to see

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kUZ1YLhIAg8

Well can't end with that sad video, check out these happy emotional guys like kids getting let out on the last day of school before summer vacation. Saved the best for last trust me.

[Pris]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Pris (here)
I want to live and do not want to be killed.

Empathy... is lacking here.

Yeah? because I don't ignore the BILLIONS of LIVING creatures that die every day, a lot of the statements I see in this thread seem to indicate that their authors have just categorized life in nice little boxes, and if your too small or not cute enough you are no longer "alive" and there for you living or dieing is irrelevant.

I have in no way indicated by my statement that I love or care any less for smaller, less 'cute' animals. I love and care for the bugs and the birds to the fish in the sea, to plants and all forms of life -- from the microscopic to the macroscopic. My feelings of love and care are not limited to what we may consider 'life forms'. I love and care for earth, air, fire, water, and 'ether'.

Everyday I become more conscious and grateful for my connection with everything. I do what I can to minimize what I consider to be any kind of negative impact I may have upon my surroundings. At the same time, I strive to be as positive an element as possible.

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)
How are you able to "share the feelings" of that which is being slaughtered without actually being slaughtered yourself?

A stunbolt gun causes a complete loss of consciousness instantly before slaughter. I too have been "knocked unconscious" though mine was a bit more brutal as it was done with fists and knees and took more than 1 quick strike.

So what you're saying is you can empathize up to the point of being knocked out. Ok. That's certainly further down Empathy Road than many would care to venture I suppose. Once you're happy to be hung upside down and have your jugular severed too, you'll be there, right?

[TargeT]

Posted by Akasha (here)
So what you're saying is you can empathize up to the point of being knocked out. Ok. That's certainly further down Empathy Road than many would care to venture I suppose. Once you're happy to be hung upside down and have your jugular severed too, you'll be there, right?

I understand that part about as much as I understand the birth process for mothers (I have 6 children.....).

it looks like the understanding has been reached, Veganism is completely illogical and emotion based (aka heart based) it ignores most life forms in favor of the few that can put up a cute video or have soft eyes.


Some of the most vicious killers in the world are cute and cuddly too, yet any one of those "cute cows" posted above would brutally be killed and consumed by these cute furry animals.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZRd3lrukxu8

Here's what I say:

If your belief is valid and true, it WILL be found to be right by those who you want to impose it on, let them come to it on their own.

or at least leave it at something along the lines of:

"this is how I eat because I feel its more inline with how I want to live"

if you go beyond that into shame/blame/guilt (which seems to happen frequently) it is no longer a positive message and your audience will see through your manipulative statements.

I'm going to pattern my life after nature, since that really seems to be where all the answers are (even when they are sometimes brutal).

Posted by Pris (here)
Everyday I become more conscious and grateful for my connection with everything. I do what I can to minimize what I consider to be any kind of negative impact I may have upon my surroundings. At the same time, I strive to be as positive an element as possible.

Great statement! I feel the same way.

[Abhaya]

it looks like the understanding has been reached, Veganism is completely illogical and emotion based

Well I wouldn't go that far. In fact when it comes to the logical debates I find the vegans are almost always wiping the floor with those who indorse meat eating. That being said the potential for logical inconclusive back and forth on this subject may exist. And you do better then most at taking a stab at it. . Point is I think we need to appeal to people's hearts more then they're minds on this issue. The heart finds this ideology easy to hold on to while the mind by with its addictive nature fights it.

[TargeT]

Posted by Abhaya (here)
The heart finds this ideology easy to hold on to while the mind by with its addictive nature fights it.

I think it has much more to do with (and this isn't a very accurate term) the "strongly held belief" syndrome (I don't think it's an actual syndrome either...).

This phenomenon is described in the first 5 min of this video (though the whole video is a master piece, I've probably watched it 30 or so times, I probably mostly understood it on the 10th full watch through).

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dbh5l0b2-0o

so you see, the old saying " you can lead a horse to water, but if it doesn't like water it's going to trample you via built in fight/flight mechanisms" is proven true (whats that you say? that's not an old saying??)

Watch this video then see how motivated you are to try and change someones mind on a strongly held belief (see if you can spot what is described in your OWN actions, that's the most powerful way to use this info).


the water will be drank when the future drinker is ready; and not before.

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Akasha (here)
So what you're saying is you can empathize up to the point of being knocked out. Ok. That's certainly further down Empathy Road than many would care to venture I suppose. Once you're happy to be hung upside down and have your jugular severed too, you'll be there, right?

I understand that part about as much as I understand the birth process for mothers (I have 6 children.....).

Really? You don't understand the above? Ok, you were saying you empathized. I was suggesting your empathy could go further.

Posted by TargeT (here)
it looks like the understanding has been reached, Veganism is completely illogical and emotion based (aka heart based) it ignores most life forms in favor of the few that can put up a cute video or have soft eyes.

On the contrary, from a health POV, the vegan diet is the most appropriate for longevity and the antidote for those suffering from the effects of the S.A.D diet, not to mention eliminating the suffering of countless animals across the globe.

Posted by TargeT (here)
Some of the most vicious killers in the world are cute and cuddly too, yet any one of those "cute cows" posted above would brutally be killed and consumed by these cute furry animals.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZRd3lrukxu8

The thread was aimed at humans, not big cats.

Posted by TargeT (here)
Here's what I say:

If your belief is valid and true, it WILL be found to be right by those who you want to impose it on, let them come to it on their own.

I didn't come to it on my own. I was made aware of it by others and am deeply grateful for all their hard, tireless work on the subject and it is with that in mind that I continue to put it out there for the sake of others like myself. This thread has had almost 10 000 views so far and that's just Avalon members. Not a massive number I know but it's better than nothing and may well have contributed to some folk transitioning to a plant based diet.

Posted by TargeT (here)
if you go beyond that into shame/blame/guilt (which seems to happen frequently) it is no longer a positive message and your audience will see through your manipulative statements.

Agreed. I hope I haven't played those cards. If I have, I apologize. The Sun is always more effective than the wind at removing the proverbial jacket.

Posted by TargeT (here)
I'm going to pattern my life after nature, since that really seems to be where all the answers are (even when they are sometimes brutal).

When the developing nations can afford a similar diet, which will be soon, brutal won't be the word!

Posted by Pris (here)
Everyday I become more conscious and grateful for my connection with everything. I do what I can to minimize what I consider to be any kind of negative impact I may have upon my surroundings. At the same time, I strive to be as positive an element as possible.

Posted by TargeT (here)
Great statement! I feel the same way.

Once again, agreed! Pris's statement encapsulates what I have so far failed to share and I appreciate her eloquence. Thank you, Pris!

[Abhaya]

Will have to watch that later tonight.

Here is a something interesting I was just thinking about though. Might stir up some reaction but I'll risk it. If we take America for example, we see that in the habits of those who are the most plugged into the system, guys who are only concerned with the next football game and are ready to get those darn terrorists, these people in 99% of the cases eat a heavy meat based diet. On the contrast amongst vegetarians in the United States,the percentage of them that are "fully plugged into the matrix" is far smaller then those that are awake and aware and alternative to some degree. Now of course this forum is testimount to the fact that you can eat meat and still be awake aware and spiritual, however the fact that the spiritually, emotionally, logically, darkest and densest in our society eat a heavy meat based diet in 99% of the cases maybe make a case for that diet being at least less conducive to our advancement in personal and spiritual matters. This can be refuted logically on some grounds I'm sure. But there is some undeniable truth here for sure I feel.

[TargeT]

Posted by Abhaya (here)
Will have to watch that later tonight.

Here is a something interesting I was just thinking about though. Might stir up some reaction but I'll risk it. If we take America for example, we see that in the habits of those who are the most plugged into the system, guys who are only concerned with the next football game and are ready to get those darn terrorists, these people in 99% of the cases eat a heavy meat based diet. On the contrast amongst vegetarians in the United States,the percentage of them that are "fully plugged into the matrix" is far smaller then those that are awake and aware and alternative to some degree. Now of course this forum is testimount to the fact that you can eat meat and still be awake aware and spiritual, however the fact that the spiritually, emotionally, logically, darkest and densest in our society eat a heavy meat based diet in 99% of the cases maybe make a case for that diet being at least less conducive to our advancement in personal and spiritual matters. This can be refuted logically on some grounds I'm sure. But there is some undeniable truth here for sure I feel.

I don't think what you are getting at holds true in any significant way unfortunately. There are a lot of dirtbag vegans because there is a whole subset of society offered for them to cling to (much like the meat eating foot ball watcher).

It's like roles are demonstrated in society and people will gravitate to them, but most of them are shallow and self defeating over the long run, be it the beer swilling meat eating foot ball watcher or the birkenstocks wearing holier-than-thou vegan.

[Abhaya]

Pride is a hard thing to over come. Maybe one of the last hurdles we manage to get over. So that prideful vegan may be overly proud of his efforts in creating a smaller carbon footprint. But if we weigh that offense against the total apathy of our societies sheeple there is no comparison.

[Abhaya]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Abhaya (here)
Will have to watch that later tonight.

Here is a something interesting I was just thinking about though. Might stir up some reaction but I'll risk it. If we take America for example, we see that in the habits of those who are the most plugged into the system, guys who are only concerned with the next football game and are ready to get those darn terrorists, these people in 99% of the cases eat a heavy meat based diet. On the contrast amongst vegetarians in the United States,the percentage of them that are "fully plugged into the matrix" is far smaller then those that are awake and aware and alternative to some degree. Now of course this forum is testimount to the fact that you can eat meat and still be awake aware and spiritual, however the fact that the spiritually, emotionally, logically, darkest and densest in our society eat a heavy meat based diet in 99% of the cases maybe make a case for that diet being at least less conducive to our advancement in personal and spiritual matters. This can be refuted logically on some grounds I'm sure. But there is some undeniable truth here for sure I feel.

I don't think what you are getting at holds true in any significant way unfortunately. There are a lot of dirtbag vegans because there is a whole subset of society offered for them to cling to (much like the meat eating foot ball watcher).

It's like roles are demonstrated in society and people will gravitate to them, but most of them are shallow and self defeating over the long run, be it the beer swilling meat eating foot ball watcher or the birkenstocks wearing holier-than-thou vegan.

So I guess you are saying that one needs to be detached from any of societies programmed cliques in order to be really getting any where. I will give you some credit there. That makes me think of another comparison however to back up my point. If we take the global percentage of vegetarians vs meat eaters vegetarians are at I think only 5 or ten percent, vegans at 2 percent. Now if we make that same comparison amongst those that have really detached them selves from the ego inflating cliques in society we would see a much much smaller gap amongst the two groups. So again perhaps a case for the diet being more conducive to pulling that plug

[Akasha]

Posted by TargeT (here)
......the birkenstocks wearing holier-than-thou vegan.....

A "Birkenstocks wearing holier-than-thou vegan" would certainly be self-defeating and technically not a vegan since Birkenstocks traditionally utilize leather in their construction .