At the Vatican, Up Against the World

[giovonni]

For the record, at this time in my life, i do not believe nor subscribe to any religious dogma.
My only desire, is too awaken my own Christ Consciousness within my own heart.

[greybeard]

Im with you my friend
Chris

[Amer]

Does your head ever ache under the weight of the quest though? The seeking of Truth- be it scientific, evolutionary, theological or else- is exciting, fulfilling and so many other positive things; but there are times I feel laden down by it all, the hidden agendas, the constant power struggle, the rotten tainting of things, the blatant malicious disinformation.
So much of this thread pertains to my reality; an Irish catholic, one of Ireland's most notorious abusers within the clergy was at one time my secondary school religion teacher, now I live in Italy and I love it dearly but am confronted by a level of ingrained political corruption and religious hypocrisy that at times you have to shut off the media-it becomes too much.
Recently what seemed to be an interesting eco/spiritual Italian based community came to my knowledge and my interest peeked but alas on further research and a visit to them to say that I was disappointed would be an understatement, there was a feeling of something a lot more sinister afoot. And hence my weary feeling- apologies for this ! I know Truth comes from within, but in doing that there is the stage of looking outward into the matrix that we find ourselves in, confronting our ideas of Truth... and therein lies my frustration :-( Is there anything we can believe in again?

[giovonni]

Posted by Amer (here)
Does your head ever ache under the weight of the quest though? The seeking of Truth- be it scientific, evolutionary, theological or else- is exciting, fulfilling and so many other positive things; but there are times I feel laden down by it all, the hidden agendas, the constant power struggle, the rotten tainting of things, the blatant malicious disinformation.
So much of this thread pertains to my reality; an Irish catholic, one of Ireland's most notorious abusers within the clergy was at one time my secondary school religion teacher, now I live in Italy and I love it dearly but am confronted by a level of ingrained political corruption and religious hypocrisy that at times you have to shut off the media-it becomes too much.
Recently what seemed to be an interesting eco/spiritual Italian based community came to my knowledge and my interest peeked but alas on further research and a visit to them to say that I was disappointed would be an understatement, there was a feeling of something a lot more sinister afoot. And hence my weary feeling- apologies for this ! I know Truth comes from within, but in doing that there is the stage of looking outward into the matrix that we find ourselves in, confronting our ideas of Truth... and therein lies my frustration :-( Is there anything we can believe in again?

Amer, yes there is something to believe in again...Youself...Just reading your post gives me hope...And allows me to continue believing in myself. Note, i realize for some the previous posted docu-video, might of been a bit layered with conflicting info and difficult in discerning; Especially for those currently in the awakening phase, from this long clouded slumber of deceit. The producer never really offered any clear alternative or did he? Allow me to contemplate your post. You and i share much in common in these regards, so i will try and give You my best insight...Gio

note~ you might find this interesting
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...182#post146182

[truthseekerdan]

Posted by giovonni (here)
For the record, at this time in my life, i do not believe nor subscribe to any religious dogma.
My only desire, is too awaken my own Christ Consciousness within my own heart.

Hey Giovonni,

Once you make it "your own", isn't that an ego thing?

JK

[Icecold]

Giovonni. The consciousness that you are seeking is NOT "Christ consciousness". You are attaching labels to something higher that does not need those labels.

While you hold onto the labels, you are limiting your search and awakening. Compromise isn't an option as the baggage will remain firmly in place.

Know the tree by its fruits. That should be enough for anyone to search for a healthy tree. You are pruning and pruning, but it remains the same tree.

Dogma is dogma is dogma. Greybeard also falls constantly into this fallacy which challenges some of his other purer thoughts.

In my view, truth seekers who have moved such a long way down the path as you two while resisting to de-baggage will never ever be convinced and will until the day you leave your body, carry that baggage with you. It will be and that is your journey.

Regardless.

Bless both of you for seeking.

[Chuck]

lol ... Icecold ...

with respect, how do you know how giovonni and Chris define their terminology? for example what giovonni describes as "Christ Consciousness" could be very different than how you interpret that term. Certainly, we all have our own ego filters thru which we percieve our world, but my take on how giovonni and Chris use their words has nothing to do with organized religion, limitations nor dogma. A term or word must be used to convey a thought ... a limitation of language, especially on a forum when conservation of space is appreciated.

I continue to hope that anything conveyed and typed by fellow avalonians gets accepted and perceived by the highest of good intentions by the reader. That goes for me. I assume you truly wish to help both of them... and maybe you have. In which case, ignore everything I just typed! heheh

[giovonni]

Thanks to you All

Chris, Dan, icecold, and Chuck

Yes ~ i guess it was my turn~ to get it ~ that is!

yes i still struggle with an ego at times, but not too often anymore.

and yes, i still have some baggage (though it's light) to deal with yet

as far as the Christ Consciousness term ~ from me personally to Amer (one former catholic to another), it is the best image in describing true perfection on this plane.

But the best part of all this ribbing you've heaped upon me is, i truly do feel and appreciate the love and good intent from each of you my Friends

[giovonni]

This from ~ Stephen A. Schwartz

"This awful story just will not stop. Three different reports in three different dioceses were filed today; I chose this one. I think it is notable that the Catholic laity has not organized itself to demand that the clergy be rededicated and cleansed, and structural changes made. Two billion dollars of believers' money has been spent so far to compensate for the systemic flaws of this system. Yet it takes place below most of the media's sight line. Business as usual. Even if you are not a Catholic this story should be seen as important. The Roman Catholic Church is the oldest virtual state woven deeply into the fabric of almost every Western nation, all of Africa, and parts of Asia. Catholics are the largest denominational community in the U.S. This slow motion implosion will affect billions of people."

***********

Philadelphia Grand Jury Recommends Criminal Charges Which Include Archdiocesan Official

By Randy Sly
2/19/2011

The Jury is In and the Cardinal Responds


Justin Cardinal Rigali

A Grand Jury in Philadelphia has issued a report and presentment concerning child abuse in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. The presentment recommends charges against three clergy and a lay teacher. They also recommended charges against the Secretary of the Clergy of the Archdiocese for endangerment.

WASHINGTON, DC (Catholic Online) - On February 10, 2011 a Philadelphia Grand Jury landed a serious blow to the Philadelphia Archdiocese with regard to child abuse charges against three priests and a lay teacher. In addition to recommending criminal charges in all three cases, the Grand Jury also recommended criminal charges against the Secretary for Clergy for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia under Cardinal Anthony Bevilacqua.

The recommended charges against the three priests, Edward Avery, Charles Engelhardt, and James Brennan and the teacher, Bernard Shero include rape and indecent sexual assault. In addition, they are recommending charges against Monsignor William J. Lynn, the Secretary for Clergy, which includes two counts of endangering the welfare of a child.

The report and presentment of the Grand Jury is the second of a one-two punch for the Archdiocese. The first came six years ago where a Grand Jury issued a 127 page report that began, "This report contains the findings of the Grand Jury: how dozens of priests sexually abused hundreds of children; how Philadelphia Archdiocese officials - including Cardinal Bevilacqua and Cardinal Krol - excused and enabled the abuse; and how the law must be changed so that it doesn't happen again. Some may be tempted to describe these events as tragic. Tragedies such as tidal waves, however, are outside human control. What we found were not acts of God, but of men who acted in His name and defiled it."

In his response the recent report, Cardinal Justin Rigali stated, "Sexual abuse of children is a crime. It is always wrong and gravely evil. Protecting children, preventing child abuse and assisting victims are priorities of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. The Grand Jury Report makes clear that for as much as the Archdiocese has done to address child sexual abuse, there is still much to do."

The Cardinal moved beyond mere words through the following actions, as reported on the Archdiocesan website:

- "He has directed the immediate re-examination of all cases of concern to the Grand Jury, which asserts that as many as "37" priests remain in active ministry with credible allegations of child sexual abuse. This re-examination will be undertaken to determine the suitability of these priests for active ministry.

- "To lead that re-examination, the Archdiocese has retained the services of Gina Maisto Smith, J.D., a partner at the law firm of Ballard Spahr. Mrs. Smith is a former Philadelphia Assistant District Attorney who for nearly two decades has prosecuted child sexual assault cases. Mrs. Smith will re-examine all cases of accused priests in active ministry, as well as review the procedures employed by the Archdiocese, and make recommendations to the Cardinal. Mrs. Smith will also assist the Archdiocese in its communications in the course of dealing with the District Attorney's Office and in responding to the Grand Jury Report.

- "The Archdiocese has placed Father Joseph L. DiGregorio, Father Joseph J. Gallagher and Father Stephen B. Perzan on administrative leave. At the direction of Cardinal Rigali, all three will refrain from the public exercise of ministry pending the outcome of a second review of their cases.

"The Archdiocese takes seriously the observations and recommendations of the Grand Jury Report, and remains committed to working with the Philadelphia District Attorney.

"Change begins with action. The actions we announce today build on the changes that the Church has already announced, including retaining Mary Achilles as a victim services consultant, hiring Joseph Cronin Jr., J.D., Ph.D., to ensure priests' compliance with the Standards of Ministerial Behavior and Boundaries [http://bit.ly/AOPministerialstandards], and creating the position of Delegate for Investigations."

On his blog, Whispers in the Loggia, Rocco Palma observed, "If even a fraction of the allegations to be reinspected are either admitted by the accused or newly judged to be "established" -- the archdiocese's consistent standard, in line with the Stateside church's particular law in force since 2002 -- the resulting mass suspension would mark, by far, the largest single banishment of priests on abuse allegations in the long trail of the most seismic scandal ever to shake the American church."

A friend of mine years ago commented that church scandals also encompass the "victimization of the faithful."

Faithful Catholics everywhere are also victimized - Catholics in Philadelphia are particularly feeling it right now. Though not to the extent as the primary victims - all Catholics have been impacted by the sinful and repugnant actions of a few men who had taken vows before God. They have also scandalized the priesthood.

Again, these faithful are looking for a proper response.

In a recent article on "zero-tolerance" concerning child abuse, John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter referred to Archbishop Dolan of New York, the President of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, who firmly believes that church officials need to have a genuine "sense of contrition."

"What we have to do, and the bishops have to lead it, is one big fat mea culpa," Dolan said. "We can't get tired of that, and we have to mean it."

In addition to contrition, Cardinal Rigali added a second and most important component - action. He pointed to the serious breach of confidence by the faithful that must be addressed in his response to the Grand Jury findings.

"Many people of faith and in the community at large think that the Archdiocese does not understand the gravity of child sexual abuse. We do. The task before us now is to recognize where we have fallen short and to let our actions speak to our resolve."

***********

Randy Sly is the Associate Editor of Catholic Online and the CEO/Associate Publisher for the Northern Virginia Local Edition of Catholic Online (http://virginia.catholic.org). He is a former Archbishop of the Charismatic Episcopal Church who laid aside that ministry to enter into the full communion of the Catholic Church.


Source;
http://www.catholic.org/national/nat...y.php?id=40406

[Amer]

It just doesn't stop does it? On and on and on. And the pope sits in his counting house. Working on another encyclical no doubt.

Thank you Giovonni for sharing with me. I believe I understood what you were trying to tell me in using that term :-)
Icecold thank you for that phrase know the tree by its fruit. Succinct & weighty.

As to baggage – show me a former catholic who doesn't have any! A lot of people walk around with baggage that settles on their shoulders for a life-time, others confront it, try to learn from it and let it go. At the end of the day it is us ourselves that have to account for the choices we made, the paths that we chose- nothing healthier than self-questioning. The process is long though.

As to ego, well in its true sense it should mean having a recognition of a healthy proportion of self-esteem- in bygone days in the catholic church they were pretty good at beating that pretty much out of you!! So you know I'm all for the recovery of being proud in yourself; you can't love others properly if you don't love yourself properly. I use that word intentionally.
Take care all.

[giovonni]

Thank you Amer, i knew you had it in you

Note, below is a little book of wisdom, that was shared with me by several members on the old Avalon Forum; it was extremely helpful too me, in shedding the shackles of my old faith based attitudes and feelings.

you might of come across it before...The Door Of Everything
http://pamelaparnell.homestead.com/f...everything.htm

[shybastid]

G man... Between our relationship with the catholic curch and an understanding of Trout Lake....
Might be nice to meet you up there in person...(Trout, not chatholisms higher levels Heh)

Might be a good road trip for me.

Are you already planning dates you'll be there?

[shybastid]

Oh, might be doing a seminar/conference with Camelot here in Tahoe this summer... Gotta show Kerry some dates and venues. Last location was perfect but too small occupancy wise.
I found a better one on North shore....
Just have to show Kerry some numbers.
Maybe join us/her (Bill?) if it works out.

[vibrations]

It has to be extremely difficult for a people grown up in a catholic education to start to doubt in this institution. A part of their essential world, belief system, is falling apart and the desperation is tremendous. The entire authority image which church always present as a part of their power over the people suddenly disappear. It’s like chaos.

They all lie. It is a shocking feeling I presume.

But looking from the broader perspective it is just a hint which helps one to start thinking by himself.

And here is a bright spot. All this abusers are in reality helping on a global awakening. Their lust and greed is a tool for us.

There is also another perspective (I am working with). All this abusers were abused too. Because this is the usual trigger which produces this kind of mental disorder, the shock and the trauma made such damage that the person confuse his sexual needs and turn to what he knows. It has to be treated..............in insolation off course.

[shybastid]

Vibration I'm not against the catholic church.

I'm against pedophiles.

Gman was nice enough to offer his condolences WAY back when I admitted I was molested by a pedophile within the catholic church who happened to be a priest.
He was very nice and sincere to me about "it."
Hope I get to meet him.
He lives in Washinton and has hung out at Trout Lake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCziwgcKT2k
Giovanni seems like a good person. I like nice people.
Not fond of the Catholic Church inspite/despite my personal issues.
The doctrine is creepy all by itself.

[giovonni]

Thanks vibrations for your comments

And yes shybastid ~ my Friend, i will keep you posted on when i plan on visiting the Ranch again ~ So that we might get to enjoy (the view) together

[vibrations]

dear shybastid

I am not against a millions of honest priests who are doing so much good around the globe, but for me the Catholic Church as institution does not have any meaning. I also think, that a lot of cases of pedophilia is a consequence of their way of educating and of their rules inside the walls.

And these are just facts which stand out by them. The pedophiles should be removed from the public and treated, but the catholic church as a whole is doing a bad favor to itself trying to cover this cases. And if we ask why they hide it, I think the possible answer would be something in between the fear that they raised so many mental cripples and the standard political lies of any kind of authorities.

My view is that just doesn’t exist any religion which is worth of trust. The only way to find God is to start to believe in myself. Coz I am the same little drop as all the others composing this universal rain.

[shybastid]

Agreed Vibration.. I have nothing to add about Catholsism. You and Gman have said plenty. WELL said I might add. And thanks.
I'm still a little "tweaked" forgetting about the molestation for 40 years...so what if I blame it on the priests? They're the easiest target.
And well they should be from a statistical standpoint based on the number of molestations ,compared to how many priests hide behind the tabbernackle and the "faith" in GOOD faith.
Not my numbers.

Criminal conduct should not be shoved under a rug for the sake of the religion.
It's NOT one time stuff.. These guys have been doing it for years/centuries.

I HATE what they get away with for the sake of the masses. Masses of religious destruction is all I see. Masses of hurting peoples trusting this nonsense.
Remember the LONG MASS in Latin?
I'm pretty sure they made me sit and listen to that too to make me Teed off.

The fear of God and death wasn't good enough. I had to get molested too. Talk about forgiveness and compassion for WHO? The priest?
I got shang hied at an early age, ...got my religious God radar up is all.

I'm open to idea's, but don't touch me for the sake of God... Heheheh

[Amer]

Suppress something to the nth degree and it will eventually destroy you and in turn you will be a destroyer of others. Just think of the numbers of psychologically unhealthy men churned out into communites to work and minister. Young men indoctrinated into the suppression of their sexual selves for a higher good, and not just the indoctrination of suppression but the absolute vilification of an integral part of self. It is not a wonder they became depraved.
As a very young Theology student twenty years ago I remember classes taken with the first year seminarians, I remember their faces. The injustice of it all. For everybody.
I know and have known good priests working away to the best of their ability within what they must know is a corrupt structure. Perhaps real change will only come when there is an internal revolt. But on this I shall not be holding my breath my friends.

[shybastid]

Amer... I lived in Southern California for quite a few years. There was a very "hip" restaraunt I worked at in Dana Point as a wine stewerd. (Oh yeah..I was cool back then) The restaraunt was owned by some people in the Gay Community. BIG Shot dough. Anyways, because it was gay owned, it had a "safety net" that allowed Gay people within the community to come there without the repercussions of being seen at gay bars in Laguna Beach.
I was straight,most of the staff was gay. (not homophobic...hey my wifes an ice skaing coach,gimmee a break)
They had MORE fun playing with me and asking me if I could tell who was gay or straight when they came into the restaraunt.
I was wrong probably 75% of the time.

We used to get the new recruits being indocrinated into the Catholic Church as young priests ALL the time. Almost ALL of them were effeminate and acted girley because they knew it was a safe house. Drove me nuts knowing they were going to become priests.

I still never remembered the molestation.
Never put 2 and 2 until about 3 years ago. Saw an ad on TV for a lawyer looking to put toghether a class action. I JUMPED up and started pointing at the TV to my wife going.."MMMphhh Mphhh THATS ME"

No way would I sue the church. I was just REALLY pissed I blacked it out for so long.
Still am.
I have nothing against gays or their lifestyle. Never have.

This pedophile thing within the church disturbs me deeply though.
Creeps me out.... The feeling in my stomach that I supressed for so long is something no one else deserves to have, ESPECIALLY a kid... from a God sworn representative.

For the Chuch to be on "damage control" alert is just too mindboggling to me.
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...976872,00.html

I'm not even on the radar. Just another statistic to make go away.
I'll still believe that the Church does more good then bad....so,knowing that if I donate money before I die, and do a good act of contrition,I'll go to heaven anyways ,makes me feel better. Righttttttt.