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Thread: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Thank you all for post and comments,
    the catholic church was (is) founded and based on the life and teachings of Christ Jesus. His 'Word' needs no building nor institution too shelter its truth. Those faithful who have learned-practiced and heeded that constant truth~ need never fear. It is those who have concealed the whole truth within the darkness from the light of day (in Jesus name), who now live in fear. For the veil of unbelief is finally being lifted; We humankind are truly (and have always been) the true intended temples~ dedicated to the God of there is.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Times are changing and time is aging those aspects of humanity that are no longer needed.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    This just in.....

    AP EXCLUSIVE: Future pope stalled pedophile case


    By GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writer Gillian Flaccus, Associated Press Writer – 26 mins ago
    LOS ANGELES – The future Pope Benedict XVI resisted pleas to defrock a California priest with a record of sexually molesting children, citing concerns including "the good of the universal church," according to a 1985 letter bearing his signature.

    The correspondence, obtained by The Associated Press, is the strongest challenge yet to the Vatican's insistence that Benedict played no role in blocking the removal of pedophile priests during his years as head of the Catholic Church's doctrinal watchdog office.

    The letter, signed by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was typed in Latin and is part of years of correspondence between the diocese of Oakland and the Vatican about the proposed defrocking of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle, who pleaded no contest to misdemeanors involving child molestation in 1978.

    The Vatican confirmed Friday that it was Ratzinger's signature and said it was a typical form letter used in laicization cases. Attorney Jeffrey Lena said the matter proceeded "expeditiously, not by modern standards, but by those standards at the time," and that the bishop was to guard against further abuse.

    Another spokesman, the Rev. Ciro Benedettini, said the letter showed no attempt at a cover-up. "The then-Cardinal Ratzinger didn't cover up the case, but as the letter clearly shows, made clear the need to study the case with more attention, taking into account the good of all involved."

    The diocese recommended removing Kiesle (KEEZ'-lee) from the priesthood in 1981, the year Ratzinger was appointed to head the Vatican office that shared responsibility for disciplining abusive priests.

    The case then languished for four years at the Vatican before Ratzinger finally wrote to Oakland Bishop John Cummins. It was two more years before Kiesle was removed; during that time he continued to do volunteer work with children through the church.

    In the November 1985 letter, Ratzinger says the arguments for removing Kiesle were of "grave significance" but added that such actions required very careful review and more time. He also urged the bishop to provide Kiesle with "as much paternal care as possible" while awaiting the decision, according to a translation for AP by Professor Thomas Habinek, chairman of the University of Southern California Classics Department.

    Lena, the Vatican attorney, said "paternal care" was a way of telling the bishop he was responsible for keeping Kiesle out of trouble. Lena said Kiesle was not accused of any child abuse in the 5 1/2 years it took for the Vatican to act on the laicization.

    The future pope also noted that any decision to defrock Kiesle must take into account the "good of the universal church" and the "detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke within the community of Christ's faithful, particularly considering the young age." Kiesle was 38 at the time.

    Kiesle had been sentenced in 1978 to three years' probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two young boys in a San Francisco Bay area church rectory.

    Cummins, his bishop, told the Vatican that the priest took a leave of absence and met with a therapist and his probation officer during the three years. It's not clear from the file where Kiesle lived during those years, but Cummins mentions temporary assignments in neighboring dioceses that never worked out.

    As his probation ended in 1981, Kiesle asked to leave the priesthood and the diocese submitted papers to Rome to defrock him.

    In his earliest letter to Ratzinger, Cummins warned that returning Kiesle to ministry would cause more of a scandal than stripping him of his priestly powers.

    "It is my conviction that there would be no scandal if this petition were granted and that as a matter of fact, given the nature of the case, there might be greater scandal to the community if Father Kiesle were allowed to return to the active ministry," Cummins wrote in 1982.

    While papers obtained by the AP include only one letter with Ratzinger's signature, correspondence and internal memos from the diocese refer to a letter dated Nov. 17, 1981, from the then-cardinal to the bishop. Ratzinger was appointed to head the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith a week later.

    California church officials wrote to Ratzinger at least three times to check on the status of Kiesle's case and Cummins discussed the case with officials during a Vatican visit, according to correspondence. At one point, a Vatican official wrote to say the file may have been lost and suggested resubmitting materials.

    Diocese officials considered writing Ratzinger again after they received his 1985 response to impress upon him that leaving Kiesle in the ministry would harm the church, Rev. George Mockel wrote in a memo to the Oakland bishop.

    "My own reading of this letter is that basically they are going to sit on it until Steve gets quite a bit older," the memo said. "Despite his young age, the particular and unique circumstances of this case would seem to make it a greater scandal if he were not laicized."

    As Kiesle's fate was being weighed in Rome, the priest returned to suburban Pinole to volunteer as a youth minister at St. Joseph Church, where he had been associate pastor from 1972-75.

    Kiesle was ultimately laicized on Feb. 13, 1987, though the documents do not indicate how or why. They also don't say what role — if any — Ratzinger had in the decision.

    Kiesle continued to volunteer with children, according to Maurine Behrend, who worked in the Oakland diocese's youth ministry office in the 1980s. After learning of his history, Behrend complained to church officials. When nothing was done she wrote a letter, which she showed to the AP.

    "Obviously nothing has been done after EIGHT months of repeated notifications," she wrote. "How are we supposed to have confidence in the system when nothing is done? A simple phone call to the pastor from the bishop is all it would take."

    She eventually confronted Cummins at a confirmation and Kiesle was gone a short time later, Behrend said.

    Kiesle, who married after leaving the priesthood, was arrested and charged in 2002 with 13 counts of child molestation from the 1970s. All but two were thrown out after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down as unconstitutional a California law extending the statute of limitations.

    He pleaded no contest in 2004 to a felony for molesting a young girl in his Truckee home in 1995 and was sentenced to six years in state prison.

    Kiesle, now 63 and a registered sex offender, lives in a Walnut Creek gated community, according to his address listed on the Megan's Law sex registry. An AP reporter was turned away when attempting to reach him for comment.

    William Gagen, an attorney who represented Kiesle in 2002, did not return a call for comment.

    More than a half-dozen victims reached a settlement in 2005 with the Oakland diocese alleging Kiesle had molested them as young children.

    "He admitted molesting many children and bragged that he was the Pied Piper and said he tried to molest every child that sat on his lap," said Lewis VanBlois, an attorney for six Kiesle victims who interviewed the former priest in prison. "When asked how many children he had molested over the years, he said 'tons.'"

    Cummins, 82 and now retired, initially told the AP he did not recall writing to Ratzinger about Kiesle, but he remembered when shown the letter with his signature on Friday. He said things had changed over the past quarter-century.

    "When he (Ratzinger) took over I think he was following what was the practice of the time, that Pope John Paul was slowing these things down. You didn't just walk out of the priesthood then," Cummins said.

    "These things were slow and their idea of thoroughness was a little more than ours. We were in a situation that was hands-on, with personal reaction."

    Documents obtained by the AP last week revealed similar instances of Vatican stalling in cases involving two Arizona clergy.

    In one case, the future pope took over the abuse case of the Rev. Michael Teta of Tucson, Ariz., then let it languish at the Vatican for years despite repeated pleas from the bishop for the man to be removed from the priesthood.

    In the second, the bishop called Msgr. Robert Trupia a "major risk factor" in a letter to Ratzinger. There is no indication in those files that Ratzinger responded.

    The Vatican has called the accusations "absolutely groundless" and said the facts were being misrepresented.

    ___

    Associated Press writers Brooke Donald in Oakland, Eric Gorski in Denver, John Mone in San Diego, Raquel Maria Dillon in Los Angeles and Victor L. Simpson in Rome contributed to this report.

    story linked here;
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100410/...e_church_abuse

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Hi Tint and welcome aboard. When I was between 8 and 10 I was molested by a priest in Cleveland Ohio twice.(He fondeled me outside of my pants,second time he tryed to go IN my pants) I did'nt even remember until I saw a commercial on TV in California from an attorney sueing under a class action suit about 5 years ago.(I'm 54) I pointed at the TV and said to my wife "HEY I was Fricken molested I was Fricken molested" At that point, I reflashed on how "dirty" I felt because I remember'd what he did, and I thought my dad would yell at me and I'd get in trouble for telling on the priest. I guess I blacked it out for years.(Blacked it out or just forgotabout it?) I'm not a Catholic anymore,but not because of that. The innocents that is taken from a child from a "man of trust" is incomprehensible to me.
    I'm pretty much a normal person. Was I effected? I have more doubts now thats for sure. I never even remember'd for 42 years? I know and remember EXACTLY the room and building and where it happened now. I even called my Dad to tell him what happened about 4 years ago.
    Sorry this is poorly written. I'm actually getting a wierd anxiety attack for writing this. I feel like I'm betraying the Church. Talk about a GUILT religion huh? Sonsofbitches molested ME and I feel guilty for telling the truth. Angry,Hurt...Ummm I have NO compassion for that guy
    Fricken wierdo. I DO remember running away from him the second time. I had a funny feeling in my stomach for a month not knowing who to talk to. How do you rat on a PRIEST? To WHO?

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    Oh....AND I was in the middle of confession. THAT's when he told me how many Our Fathers and Hail Marys I had to do. He hugged and GROPED me at the same time. The first time, I think I thought it was my imagination(kinda I was in denial)....... Second time I bolted. With that "I did something wrong" feeling. HE DID wrong not ME .. Yeah I watch it on the News and go "Basterds."

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Hey, shybastid, my thoughts are with you. Eight to ten years old is a very young age to have experienced this. No wonder you pushed it out of your mind. Clearing it out is painful, and I suggest you work through it with some help. There's no shame in that: you were the victim and don't for a moment blame yourself for hiding it in your subconscious mind. Sending you healing prayers...love, peace to you and your family.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Thank you Linda.. Can you believe it? I got Molested by a PRIEST and forgot for 40 years? Maybe I AM damaged.
    It was a very strange awakening. I was SO mad when I remember'd. Not mad enough to hire a lawyer to sue for damages tho.
    How weird would THAT be? Sheesh.. I'm 54.... What? Am I going to cry in a court room and go " Yes, I THINK thats a picture of the priest that groped me" The Priest was already like a 100.
    How about the Lawyers advertising on TV? How much class and dignity do THEY have? Should I have called them? Should I have said "YES I REMEMBER, Get Me Money" I was in a daze for about a week that I buryed that memory. I was more mad at my innerself then the priest at that point. How could I forget that? THAT was the bigger question. 40 years?
    Thanks for your Prayer. Don't ask me to go to Catholic Church today. Not a good idea.
    NO Maybe I SHOULD go to my local Church and discuss it with a Catholic priest. What if he dismisses me? What do I want from that meeting?
    I'm sorry? Maybe I do.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Bless you shybastid,
    thank very much for opening up yourself to us here. there nothing i nor anyone else can say to relieve the anguish and pain you must of suffered all these years. i attended a catholic boarding school and was quite aware of these kinds of incidences occuring. it was always ignored or pushed aside. many years ago after these revelations were publicly acknowledge by local church superiors, i heeded a call from within ( prompted by a priest calling from the alter pew); he said that if we (the congregation) felt distrubed- disgusted and disgruntled by these claims and accusations, then we should get up and do something about it. i later contacted that priest and informed him of my interest in his challenge, he seem annoyed and spoke briefly with me, he informed me that he was preparing leave to go on a vacation and did not have the time to talk with me. note, i did find a priest and congregation in assisting me in my pursuit. later, i did begin a vocation within the church. but it did not take long for me to see and realize that the change could not (would not) come from inside the insitution, it had to come from the church's faithful (its members ) too finally say enough of this sickness. the universal catholic church, is (and has acted) very much like a disfunctional family, and it must finally end its deniel. for those of us who choose to leave and walk away, there is truly no righteousness in regards to this latest news release.
    Last edited by giovonni; 10th April 2010 at 04:39.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    giovanni Thank you for that heartfelt responce. Thats one of the problems. AM I a victom? I did'nt even remember for 40 years. I really did'nt. Will I get closure if I yell at a different Priest? Believe me, I can yell. For what? What the heck? I can only tell you from my heart, this cannot be ignored by the Church. If this ever happened to any of MY children? I would be the mad italien temper'd guy.(BAD) Would I believe my kid?THATS where I'm confused(Would my dad have believed me?) Goes back to Church and Trust. I don't know. What a violation of God,Trust and Innocence.
    Really kinda seems Satanic to me. I'm still keeping Jesus Christ as my savior tho... I'm not taking any chances. I'm not that religious either.
    I think I'm going to go yell at a priest. And give HIM an act of contrition. I think I am. I got fricking molested and forgot about it for 40 years. That alone is creepy.

    Confrontation with Priest or rebury how mad I am and how violated I feel now......... wierd

    Writing about this on a "blog" is even wierder.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    My wife asked me how the heck a priest could molest me through a confessional booth. Normally, in the Catholic Church..there are little booths on the side of the church,the priest sits in the middle booth with 2 seperate rooms on each side for the "sinners." Sinner goes into his booth,priest opens a sliding panel in the dark.You can only see priests shadow,and he can only see your shadow.
    Thats an FYI for you non catholics. Thats how it normally works. You say your sins,and based on how bad you were,you are given a number of prayers to say,(penents) to be forgiven. You are then obsolved of your sins and can start again.

    THIS Guy made me give him confession in his OFFICE.TWICE! I'm looking away from him while I'm trying to tell him what a "bad" boy I was. The embarressment alone creeped me out..Kneeling in front of this guy sitting in a chair right next to me.
    He gave me my penents and THEN started the fricking fondeling. How sick is THAT?
    I think I'm going to my church for a confrontation with the local priest. I want to see his reaction.
    I know he is not personally responsible....but I think I want to see his approach to this.

    I will report back. I think I'm going Monday

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    I actually feel better writing this down. It somehow seems to put it in perspective. Thanks Avalon. See? This website has healing powers.
    How strong is THAT?

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Something about my victim remark. There is another angle, if you will. From a higher perspective, you are not a victim. You created this drama, created this "dream" of reality. You and the perpetrator both had separate experiences, separate "dreams" going on at the same time. Thing is, when you were eight or ten, the power of the other guy's "dream" was stronger. His power was used for what I can say is truly evil...no doubt. And that's the nature of things: good (the child) exists, but the other guy's (malicious) version of the drama had more power at that moment, and the non-good showed up. We need to teach children from an early age that other people can steal your "power" (your goodness). Even a supposed representative of spiritual power: a church leader can do this. I sense this priest has passed from this world. May this man's spirit be in a place of healing, never to return to such dark imag-ination. Hmph.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Well said Linda. REALLY well said. I feel your words. I agree. They feel to my heart directly.
    Having said that... I don't want to be known on Avalon as the "doode" that got molested.
    "Oh, Shybastid?" He hates chemtrails and Priests.. (whispered) "He was molested ya know".
    I did'nt remember for 40 years.. I don't want to be remembered for that NOW. I hope I contribute more then that.

    Peace

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Don't worry, everybody forgets faster than you could imagine! In fact, we could even delete the posts if you want to do so. That way, nobody could read it a couple of years from now when you don't even think about it any more! LB

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    Lightbulb Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Thank you shybastid and linda~ for expanding on this topic.
    I believe the more we examine these issues the faster we all will heal.
    there's no doubt in my mind (as linda pointed out), we all create our own drama on this plane.
    shybastid, your idea of confronting your local priest is a good start in proceeding in this healing process, but i would also suggest a softer approach.
    maybe call the parish rectory and set up a counceling session with the paster; when you get there tell him you story and that you want his advice on how to put it all too rest?
    allow him too make the amends~ so to speak. ask him how he deals with all the pressure having to live in the vacuum of this ever expanding scandel? maybe you can help him as well~ in his continuing to serve within his pastoral vocation, by giving him insights into how this behavior affects a child's life through adulthood. if you approach it this way, you might find yourself helping to heal the priest, and that truly would be like walking in the footsetps of the christ jesus. remember your not the victim, you part of the healing solution.


    post-note, shybastid if you follow up on my suggestions remember, you have already reconciled with yourself in this matter. no one can give you that but yourself. anything you walk away with in this process ~ you've directed and permitted too occur. if the encounter with the priest is positive or not, doesn't really matter; give yourself the permission to finally let it go. also, in regards to your children, let them know-no matter what- you will always listen to them whenever they need you, allow them that trust- for you owe them and yourself that. be that adult (parent) you needed (as that innocent child did) way back when.
    blessing to you my friend~gio
    Last edited by giovonni; 11th April 2010 at 22:39.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Geoffrey Robertson, a renowned human rights lawyer and United Nations jurist, wants to see Pope Benedict put on trial for allegedly protecting predator priests.

    In a Guardian UK piece making its rounds this week in Catholic circles, Robertson demanded the pope be "put in the dock" so that the church might "feel the full weight of international law" over its thousands of pedophilia scandals.

    The pope's conduct, he said, "amounted to the criminal offence of aiding and abetting sex with minors," making Benedict a justifiable target for either the International Criminal Court or a British court acting under the legal principal of universal jurisdiction.
    http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0410/jud...pope-benedict/

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    and about time it is !

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    It will never happen.
    In all ages, in all lands, there have been those who seek truth. This seeking is an individual's search for something more than self, and much more than the confines of this worldly system. It is the seeker, who understands there is more than what meets the eye, who is not afraid and makes the choice to go into the unknown. The process of awaking has begun, the discovery is underway.
    Alan Watt

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    K626, yes, it is likely that never happens but the fact of appearing in the press, on television and be subject for discussion is wonderful! Imagine how many people were sexually abused by members of the catholic church (in recent centuries) and suffering in silent because nobody believed them. This facts in public dominion decrease the power of the catholic church. Censorship and secrets are the worsts poisons to humanity. Monique.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by monique (here)
    K626, yes, it is likely that never happens but the fact of appearing in the press, on television and be subject for discussion is wonderful! Imagine how many people were sexually abused by members of the catholic church (in recent centuries) and suffering in silent because nobody believed them. This facts in public dominion decrease the power of the catholic church. Censorship and secrets are the worsts poisons to humanity. Monique.
    The CC is being re-positioned on the board as is Islam. There will be a lot of revelations about organised religion, it has simply served its purpose and is going to be replaced.
    In all ages, in all lands, there have been those who seek truth. This seeking is an individual's search for something more than self, and much more than the confines of this worldly system. It is the seeker, who understands there is more than what meets the eye, who is not afraid and makes the choice to go into the unknown. The process of awaking has begun, the discovery is underway.
    Alan Watt

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