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Thread: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

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    United States Avalon Member Snowbird's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by HORIZONS (here)
    Someone asked me one time if I still went to church and I said no, they said how come? I said because I am the church and church is wherever I am at :-)




    I couldn't agree more!!
    We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
    Plato

    Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by MargueriteBee (here)
    Found this on Rense.com today:

    Database of Publicly Accused Priests in the United States

    http://www.bishop-accountability.org...astName-M.html
    That is simply incredible!!! That's 396 in the U.S. alone.
    We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
    Plato

    Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    United States Avalon Member Snowbird's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Is it not time, after all of these disclosures and lawsuits and accusations, for the parents of the children around the world, to begin to accept the responsibility for the protection of their children?

    There is far too much known at this point in time for parents to continue to simply and blindly trust the protection of their children of whatever age, to total strangers within the church...any church...anywhere.

    I am not understanding the reason that this parental wakeup call has taken years upon years to reach the very people who claim responsibility for their children and yet, allow and at times force, their children into compromising situations alone without their presence, in a church setting. Why do parents continue to do this? I'm at a loss.
    We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
    Plato

    Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    I was supossed to be in CONFESSION! How the heck would my dad NOT trust that?
    Its Confession! Does'nt get any more catholic then that.
    My dad is not to blame.
    The perpetrater of the crime is my friend.

    Period!! HE did it!

    I'm sorry.

    I disagree agree with you on this.
    When I told my dad about 5 years ago.. He went beserk.. "Nahhhhh.. You Sure? Nahhhhhh"
    His fault? Nope.
    If you can't trust a priest in confession as a little boy, then religion is a BAD ploy of power and manipulation.
    Fricken PEDOPHILE.
    How can you blame my Dad?

    I think I'm GLAD I forgot about it. I can't blame the church for the mistakes I've made.
    "Im a victim. I'm a victim"
    It DID happen though. Don't make me swear on a stack of bibles though.
    Who ever is holding the bible might try and molest me again. HMMMMmm Maybe THAT"S why I question authority?

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    United States Avalon Member Snowbird's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by shybastid (here)
    I was supossed to be in CONFESSION! How the heck would my dad NOT trust that?
    Its Confession! Does'nt get any more catholic then that.
    My dad is not to blame.
    The perpetrater of the crime is my friend.

    Period!! HE did it!

    I'm sorry.

    I disagree agree with you on this.
    When I told my dad about 5 years ago.. He went beserk.. "Nahhhhh.. You Sure? Nahhhhhh"
    His fault? Nope.
    If you can't trust a priest in confession as a little boy, then religion is a BAD ploy of power and manipulation.
    Fricken PEDOPHILE.
    How can you blame my Dad?

    I think I'm GLAD I forgot about it. I can't blame the church for the mistakes I've made.
    "Im a victim. I'm a victim"
    It DID happen though. Don't make me swear on a stack of bibles though.
    Who ever is holding the bible might try and molest me again. HMMMMmm Maybe THAT"S why I question authority?
    In no way, shape or form am I pointing a finger at you or your parents or parents of others who have experienced this such a long time ago.

    Goodness, when this happened to you, we were still living in a time when clergy could do no wrong in our eyes. We, myself included, were taught to trust and trust we did.

    But now, and within the last, oh, five years, there has been SO much that has come to the light. We now know. Parents now know. And, for the sake and the safety of the young in their charge, it is time that they collectively readdress their issues of trust. We can no longer trust like we used to. Yes?
    We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
    Plato

    Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

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    Lightbulb Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    thank you snowbird and again shybastid for you post and comments,

    sinead o'connor's infamous performance on~ america's "live saturaday night" tv show,
    in which she condemned war ~ but also took aim at the catholic church in regards to child abuse.
    at the time her words were very shocking and controversial, but sadly most relevant in retrospect during these times of awakening.
    sinead o'conner's infamous~ saturday night live performance

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYw8JR1N90o



    Friday evening April 23rd, 2010
    last night~ i caught ms sinead o'connor on the msnbc's rachel maddow's political commentary tv program here in america~
    sinead o'conner's on rachel maddow's show

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0UBoJ5HEHA





    also another interview from a british broadcast on march 30th, 2010

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6oMS-vJsDc

    Last edited by giovonni; 25th April 2010 at 23:04. Reason: Embeded videos as per request

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    New Zealand Avalon Member Carmen's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    A hard hitting song sung by Christie Moore




    "Joni Mitchell's *The Magdalene Laundries lyrics"
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I was an unmarried girl
    I'd just turned twenty-seven
    When they sent me to the sisters
    For the way men looked at me
    Branded as a jezebel
    I knew I was not bound for Heaven
    I'd be cast in shame
    Into the Magdalene laundries

    Most girls come here pregnant
    Some by their own fathers
    Bridget got that belly
    By her parish priest
    We're trying to get things white as snow
    All of us woe-begotten-daughters
    In the streaming stains
    Of the Magdalene laundries

    Prostitutes and destitutes
    And temptresses like me-
    Fallen women-
    Sentenced into dreamless drudgery ...
    Why do they call this heartless place
    Our Lady of Charity?
    Oh charity!

    These bloodless brides of Jesus
    If they had just once glimpsed their groom
    Then they'd know, and they'd drop the stones
    Concealed behind their rosaries
    They wilt the grass they walk upon
    They leech the light out of a room
    They'd like to drive us down the drain
    At the Magdalene laundries

    Peg O'Connell died today
    She was a cheeky girl
    A flirt
    They just stuffed her in a hole!
    Surely to God you'd think at least some bells should ring!
    One day I'm going to die here too
    And they'll plant me in the dirt
    Like some lame bulb
    That never blooms come any spring
    Not any spring
    No, not any spring
    Not any spring


    Tis time to reveal the lies and to heal the pain!

    Carmen
    Last edited by Carmen; 25th April 2010 at 02:55.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    I was raised in the Mormon church. The 'elders' molested me and my sister. I had forgotten until I attempted to do a past life regression. Instead it was this memory that came up. I didn't grab onto anger, instead I was able to see past it to what was inside that man and it was an injured soul that had been terribly abused itself. This abuse goes back far back into the past. Where/when did it start?

    I don't hate the elder, I pity it.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Margurite? Sorry.
    I'm hearing it's not uncommon to blank this stuff out. Who knew? I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy.
    I'm really more pissed off about blacking it out then the events themselves. Maybe not.
    I'm pretty angry about it. HOW in the **** do you black that stuff out?
    I thought I knew myself. I'm less sure now. That's for sure.

    Snow? No worries..

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    Lightbulb Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    thought i'd add some more interesting and insightful > info into this controversial issue~
    giovonni


    Five myths about the Catholic sexual abuse scandal
    By David Gibson
    first printed- Sunday, April 18, 2010 in the Washington Post

    VATICAN CITY -- As Benedict XVI prepares to mark the fifth anniversary of his election as pope here on Monday, he is beset by devastating reports about the sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests -- and about his own role in the crisis. The reports have prompted sharp condemnations of the pontiff as well as a backlash of media criticism from papal defenders in the Vatican and around the world. Amid the firestorm, myths have emerged that only complicate the search for truth, healing and accountability.

    1. Pope Benedict is the primary culprit in the coverup of the abuse scandal.


    Between 1981 and 2005, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican's office for doctrinal orthodoxy. A few abuse cases (some from the United States) came before him, and the evidence shows that he did not move with any urgency to defrock priests. In 2001, as the number of cases coming to light worldwide increased, Ratzinger convinced Pope John Paul II to let his office have jurisdiction over all of them. Though the Vatican says church confidentiality did not preclude bishops from reporting crimes to civil authorities, some see Ratzinger's move as an attempt to keep the cases secret.

    Nonetheless, there is just one case so far that can be traced directly to Ratzinger's tenure as a bishop, when he was head of the archdiocese of Munich in his native Germany. In that 1980 case, Ratzinger allowed a child abuser into his diocese for psychiatric treatment, and the priest was reassigned to a parish where he went on to abuse more children. It's unclear whether Ratzinger personally signed off on the assignment, but he seems to have acted more or less like most bishops at the time -- giving little oversight to the abuser and doing nothing to remove him from the priesthood. Alas, there is plenty of blame to go around for the church's passivity.

    As pope, Benedict has blamed the media for exaggerating the scandals, yet he has moved more aggressively against abusers than John Paul II, his predecessor, who tried to stop defrocking priests altogether and who ignored evidence of the terrible abuses by the late Marcial Maciel Degollado, a well-known Mexican priest who founded the Legionaries of Christ, a secretive order that is under Vatican investigation.

    During the 2000s, as Ratzinger came to realize the scope of the abuse, he expedited the defrocking of abusive priests and reopened the Maciel case, which had been closed under John Paul. "We realize that it's necessary to repent," Benedict said in a homily on Thursday. He has still has not punished bishops, however, with the same rigor with which he has targeted abusers.

    2. Gay priests are to blame.


    Some defenders of the Catholic Church's response to the abuse crisis say that homosexual priests are responsible for the majority of abuses, in part because more than 80 percent of the victims are male. They argue that true pedophiles -- adults who are pathologically attracted to pre-pubescent children -- constitute a small minority of offenders. Vatican Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone repeated this gay-pedophile link on Wednesday, and such reasoning was partially behind a 2005 Vatican policy barring gays from seminaries.

    Such assertions have numerous flaws. For one thing, research shows that gay men are no more likely to molest children than straight men. (And celibacy doesn't seem to be a determining factor, either.) Yes, 80 percent of the victims were male, but many offenders assaulted children of both sexes. Maciel abused boys and fathered children with several women. Moreover, the abusers had access to boys; an adult male couldn't go on overnight trips with girls or take them away unchaperoned.

    Finally, while critics of gay clerics fret that homosexuals dominate the priesthood and endanger children, in fact the ostensible increase in gay priests in recent years has coincided with a sharp decrease in reports of child abuse by clergy.

    3. Sexual abuse is more pervasive in the Catholic Church than in other institutions.


    Sexual abuse of minors is not the province of the Catholic Church alone. About 4 percent of priests committed an act of sexual abuse on a minor between 1950 and 2002, according to a study being conducted by John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. That is roughly consistent with data on many similar professions.

    An extensive 2007 investigation by the Associated Press showed that sexual abuse of children in U.S. schools was "widespread," and most of it was never reported or punished. And in Portland, Ore., last week, a jury reached a $1.4 million verdict against the Boy Scouts of America in a trial that showed that since the 1920s, Scouts officials kept "perversion files" on suspected abusers but kept them secret.

    "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, told Newsweek. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."

    Part of the issue is that the Catholic Church is so tightly organized and keeps such meticulous records -- many of which have come to light voluntarily or through court orders -- that it can yield a fairly reliable portrait of its personnel and abuse over the decades. Other institutions, and most other religions, are more decentralized and harder to analyze or prosecute.

    Still, it is hardly good news that the church appears to be no different from most other institutions in its incidence of abuse. Shouldn't the Catholic Church and other religious institutions hold to a higher standard?

    4. Media outlets are biased against the Catholic Church.


    While the Vatican and the pope's champions argue -- often in conspiratorial tones -- that the media is biased against the church, the truth is quite the opposite.

    The church and the pope do receive major media attention, and with reason. The pope is a world leader as well as the temporal head of one of the world's most storied religious traditions. There are more than 1.1 billion Catholics on the planet, and the Catholic Church is the largest denomination in the United States, with more than 65 million baptized members. In the media, holidays such as Christmas and Easter tend to be dominated by Catholic images.

    The pope also makes news with his pronouncements on a range of topics, and his travels are media events. Pope John Paul II's death and funeral in April 2005 produced wall-to-wall coverage for weeks, generating some of the most favorable press the church has ever had.

    The annual survey of religion in the news conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life showed that in 2008 -- the year Benedict traveled to Washington and New York -- coverage of the pope and of the Catholic Church accounted for more than half of all news stories about religion, and the majority were positive or explanatory. You don't hear the church complaining about this kind of attention.

    5. The crisis will compel U.S. Catholics to leave the church.


    When the initial revelations of widespread sexual abuse by clergy emerged in 2002, many believed that Catholics would abandon the church en masse, or at least send the institution toward insolvency by withholding donations. But then, as now, American Catholics turned out to be an unpredictable lot. Though critical of the bishops and the Vatican, Catholics tend to love their local parishes and priests. And even if they don't heed all church mandates, they don't easily shed all the cultural and sacramental markers of their faith.

    A 2007 Pew survey of the religious landscape in America found that among Catholics who had left the church, the abuse crisis ranked low on the list of reasons -- well behind church teachings on homosexuality, the role of women, abortion and contraception. And a 2008 poll by Georgetown University's Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate showed that even the bishops had enjoyed a rebound in approval, with satisfaction with the hierarchy growing from 58 percent in 2004 to 72 percent in 2008.

    Still, Catholic leaders can't be complacent. Some 10 percent of all Americans are former Catholics, and without immigrants, the number of American Catholics would be falling, not growing slightly. In a competitive marketplace, it's not smart to put your customers' loyalty to such a test.

    DavidGibson@politicsdaily.com

    David Gibson is the author of "The Rule of Benedict: Pope Benedict XVI and his Battle with the Modern World." He covers religion for PoliticsDaily.com.

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    England Avalon Member HURRITT ENYETO's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    My grandmother was sent to one of these monasteries in ireland for being naive and getting pregnant at a young age, she was made to work in the laundry to pay for the upkeep of her baby that she wasnt allowed to see.She said that the so called holy nuns were some of the most wicked and evil people she had ever met and there was nothing godly about them. Just my twopence worth.
    The Universe at its heart is a Phantom.
    God sleeps in the Minerals, Awakens in Plants, Walks in the Animals and Thinks in Man.

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    Unhappy Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Here's more of the blame game from~ papagate

    Pope Benedict places blame for sex scandals on Catholic Church

    By Nicole Winfield
    Wednesday, May 12, 2010

    LISBON, PORTUGAL -- Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday blamed the church's own sins for the clerical sex-abuse scandal -- not a campaign mounted by outsiders -- and called for profound purification to end what he called the "greatest persecution" the church has endured.

    His strongly worded comments placed responsibility for the crisis squarely on the sins of pedophile priests, repudiating the Vatican's initial response to the scandal, in which it blamed the news media as well as advocates of abortion rights and legalizing same-sex marriage for mounting what it called a campaign against the church and the pope.

    Speaking en route to Portugal, Benedict said the Catholic Church has always suffered from problems of its own making but that "today we see it in a truly terrifying way."

    "The greatest persecution of the church doesn't come from enemies on the outside but is born from the sins within the church," the pontiff said. "The church needs to profoundly relearn penitence, accept purification, learn forgiveness -- but also justice." The comments marked Benedict's most thorough admission of the church's guilt in creating the scandal. Previously he blamed abusers themselves and, in the case of Ireland, the bishops who failed to stop them.

    He was responding to journalists' questions, submitted in advance, aboard the papal plane as he flew to Portugal. His four-day visit will take him from Lisbon to the famed Fatima shrine to Portugal's second city, Porto.

    Despite the Vatican's initial defensive response to hundreds of reports of clerical abuse in Europe, Benedict has promised that the church will take action. He has already started cleaning house, accepting the resignations of a few bishops who either admitted they molested youngsters or covered up for priests who did.

    But critics say he has not done nearly enough to repair the damage or protect children in the future. Some have noted that while Benedict has accepted some bishops' resignations, no bishop has been actively punished or defrocked, even those who admitted to molestation.

    "Many are tiring of hearing about his 'strong comments.' They want to see strong action," said David Clohessy, director of the main U.S. victims group, the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests.

    Church bells rang out as the pontiff proceeded through Lisbon from the airport in his popemobile. Several thousand people lined the streets on a rainy day, some shouting "Viva o Papa!" Some stretches of the route, however, were thinly attended.

    In his airport remarks, Benedict criticized Portugal's 2007 law allowing abortion, saying officials must give "essential consideration" to issues that affect human life.

    -- Associated Press

    article link;
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...=moreheadlines

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    Avalon Member MorningSong's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Hello Gio! I just wanted to comment on the Pope's message given at Fatima that I watched live on the TV, but first here is an article from the Vatican, which in my opinion is NOT AT ALL what the Pope said:

    http://www.catholicnews.com/data/sto...ns/1002007.htm

    Below, I have highlighted some sentances from the above article.

    What was directly translated live over the Italian TV is that "the Third Secret of Fatima has NOT yet been fullfilled... and the worst is yet to come." And at the closing salute, the Pope did not say "he" was looking foreward to celebrating the 100th anniversary in 2017...he mentioned the anniversary but had a very sad look on his face, and my first thought was: he knows he (and many others) aren't going to be there. I found the Pope's told and untold message interesting and revealing, yet the media keep playing down and deafening down the message at all angles.

    Peace and Good Will, my friend!

    Quote Pope says Mary's message at Fatima still important for humanity
    By John Thavis
    Catholic News Service

    FATIMA, Portugal (CNS) -- Celebrating Mass at Fatima, Pope Benedict XVI said the prophetic mission of Mary's apparitions there has not ended and has special relevance for a world still caught in a "cycle of death and terror."

    Speaking to a vast crowd at the Portuguese sanctuary, the pope said the message of Fatima was especially relevant at a time of waning belief in the divine and of continuing strife among peoples.

    "We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete," the pope said. From the earliest times, he said, humanity "has succeeded in unleashing a cycle of death and terror, but failed in bringing it to an end."

    The German pope celebrated the liturgy May 13, the anniversary of the first in a series of six Marian apparitions to three shepherd children in the village of Fatima in 1917. After arriving in his popemobile, he stood at the altar and looked out on an estimated 500,000 people who held up crosses, icons and the flags of many nations...

    When he arrived in Fatima May 12, the pope prayed before a statue of Mary that stands at the site of the apparitions. He paid tribute to his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, who was convinced that the "secrets" of Fatima had a personal connection to the assassination attempt made against him May 13, 1981.

    At the Mass, Pope Benedict offered a less personalistic perspective on the apparitions and the messages of Fatima....

    Fatima's message and mission are not over, the pope said, because the need for penance and conversion in the world continues. He gave thanks that the spiritual movement set in motion by the events at Fatima has spread all over the globe, and he looked ahead to 2017, when the world will celebrate the 100th anniversary of the apparitions.

    The pope's remarks reflected his long-held view that the Fatima apparitions did not announce particular apocalyptic events, but a more general succession of trials for the church.

    On the first day of his trip to Portugal, speaking to reporters on his plane, the pope suggested that the Fatima prophecy of a time of suffering for the church could refer, in a general way, to the priestly sex abuse crisis. He cautioned, however, against tying the Fatima messages too specifically to particular persons or experiences.

    The third secret of Fatima's vision of a "bishop in white" who falls dead after being shot by soldiers was understood by many as referring to Pope John Paul, who was seriously wounded but survived the 1981 shooting.

    On his plane, Pope Benedict suggested that the pope in the vision may stand for the whole church, which makes the message of Fatima a kind of permanent challenge.

    "The Lord told us that the church will always be suffering in various ways, up to the end of the world. The important point is that the message, the answer of Fatima, is not substantially addressed to particular devotions, but is the fundamental response: permanent conversion, penance, prayer, and the three cardinal virtues: faith, hope and charity," he said....
    "Vision without action is merely a dream.
    Action without vision just passes the time.
    Vision with action can change the world." Joel Arthur Barker

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    Lightbulb Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Thank You My Friend
    I awoke this morning to a vision and i was prompted to find an image (as i often do) that transcends its emotional impact upon me~

    here's what i searched and found



    i believe this is what the "papa" sees and knows in his heart
    the rebirth of our~Mother Earth


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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by MorningSong (here)
    I just wanted to comment on the Pope's message given at Fatima that I watched live on the TV

    What was directly translated live over the Italian TV is that "the Third Secret of Fatima has NOT yet been fullfilled... and the worst is yet to come." And at the closing salute, the Pope did not say "he" was looking foreward to celebrating the 100th anniversary in 2017...he mentioned the anniversary but had a very sad look on his face

    for those who need to hear the socalled Third Secret of Fatima from the Pope's own mouth


    Cardinal Ratzinger as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

    - in an interview published in the 11 November 1984 edition of Jesus Magazine -

    was asked whether he had read the text of the Third Secret and why it had not been revealed


    Ratzinger acknowledged that he had read the Third Secret and stated in part that the Third Secret involves

    * "importance of the novissimi"(end times)

    * "dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian and therefore (the life) of the world."

    * "If it is not made public - at least for the time being - it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational."


    Cardinal Ratzinger had personally confirmed to Howard Dee

    - former Philippine ambassador to the Vatican -

    that the messages of Akita and Fatima are "essentially the same."


    that means messages of Apostasy and Apocalypse


    did you hear about the dancing sun in Fatima

    it was witnessed by tens of thousands


    did you hear about the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

    they said they lived the message of Fatima

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    A statistic posted on the previous page cites 4% of priests (of all sects) molest children. That is a conservative figure considering that many (if not most) of molestations are not ever reported (and some not even remembered).

    This thread is about the catholic church priests, but the view of molestation has a much larger picture worldwide. It's as though men that are priests are held to a higher standard than the average "joe", a regular human... why is that? Does the average human being have lower levels of ethics or standards than a "holy man" priest?

    I once held a job w/county government, 13 women in this office... 30% had been molested/raped by a man and not one of them was reported. What does that say about society?

    For a man to enter the clergy, the catholic church (of this thread), seems to me that a vow of celibacy should include becoming a eunich, but oh No, can't have that? Why not??? Do they need their sex drive for anything, anything at all? You want to call that radical?
    How about castrating the molester? Then there would be no need for sex offender lists (since they seemingly can't be rehabilitated) and endless data tracking and court backlogs.

    The point of this thread seems to be the lack of action to "fix" the problem. Those are my suggestions.

    Have a nice day!

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by Moxie (here)
    It's as though men that are priests are held to a higher standard than the average "joe", a regular human... why is that? Does the average human being have lower levels of ethics or standards than a "holy man" priest?

    that depends what you think of the Church


    if the Church is established by Christ then it serves as His office on Earth

    " And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. " - Matthew 16:18

    if so we are right to expect sound values and high standards of the men in the Church


    but as you see from the bible passage above

    there are powers that will try to hijack the Church the ministers and all men and women

    surly the henchmen of Hades will infiltrate the Church even tho they can not destroy it



    here is a little anecdote about Pope Leo XIII from wikipedia

    Pope Leo XIII was climbing the steps to the altar when he suddenly stopped stared fixedly at something in the air and with a terrible look on his face collapsed to the floor

    When asked what had happened he explained that he suddenly heard voices - two voices
    one kind and gentle the other guttural and harsh

    They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

    The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord:
    "I can destroy your Church."
    The gentle voice of Our Lord: "You can? Then go ahead and do so."
    Satan: "To do so, I need more time and more power."
    Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?"
    Satan: "75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service."
    Our Lord: "You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will"

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Mary is the Mother of the Church

    do you want to see it destroyed

    then pick a number and get in line behind Satan
    Last edited by RedeZra; 16th May 2010 at 19:25.

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    UK Avalon Member kriya's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by giovonni (here)
    Thank You My Friend
    I awoke this morning to a vision and i was prompted to find an image (as i often do) that transcends its emotional impact upon me~

    here's what i searched and found




    i believe this is what the "papa" sees and knows in his heart
    the rebirth of our~Mother Earth

    Great image, Gio. Your vision ties in with 2012 (or is that what you meant?) and the idea that the earth is pregnant and about to give birth to a new earth.

    Love,

    Kriya
    NEVER MIND HIS SILENCE~REMEMBER HE IS LISTENING
    :grouphug:

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    Mary is the Mother of the Church

    do you want to see it destroyed

    then pick a number and get in line behind Satan
    Im not of any religion, nor want to be, but accept that it is easy for me to be critical, its so easy to condemn a church that has lightened many lives because of a few who have brought dis-grace to their calling.
    The spiritual message brought to us by Jesus has survived dogma and is still there in essence in the Catholic Church Services.
    It would be a great loss to the world if Christian Churches were to disappear and lets face it the Catholic church is the original and Mother Church.

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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