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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Jordan Maxwell in his latest interview with Kerry stated that the Vatican is the biggest crime organization.
    And a crime organization that is seeking power and control (money is not the goal any more, just a mean). Run by reptilians.

    The Vatican demise is welcomed and anticipated. Especially from a Jewish polarized view.
    Never the less do not be fooled. Enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
    We are playing a virtual reality game, of duality. In the game of choices, align your choices with your ideals. Everything is whole, complete and perfect. Even yourself. Love is the power to change/create.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)
    Jordan Maxwell in his latest interview with Kerry stated that the Vatican is the biggest crime organization.
    And a crime organization that is seeking power and control (money is not the goal any more, just a mean). Run by reptilians.

    I like a good story but I prefer facts

    so I don't base my world views on Mr Maxwell's claims of this and that


    now take a deep breath and read this again

    " run by reptilians "


    you're kidding right

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    Lightbulb Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Church Office Failed to Act on Abuse Scandal


    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 1982. The office he led, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, had been given authority over abuse cases in 1922, documents show and canon lawyers confirm.
    By LAURIE GOODSTEIN and DAVID M. HALBFINGER
    Published: July 1, 2010

    In its long struggle to grapple with sexual abuse, the Vatican often cites as a major turning point the decision in 2001 to give the office led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger the authority to cut through a morass of bureaucracy and handle abuse cases directly.

    The decision, in an apostolic letter from Pope John Paul II, earned Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, a reputation as the Vatican insider who most clearly recognized the threat the spreading sexual abuse scandals posed to the Roman Catholic Church.

    But church documents and interviews with canon lawyers and bishops cast that 2001 decision and the future pope’s track record in a new and less flattering light.

    The Vatican took action only after bishops from English-speaking nations became so concerned about resistance from top church officials that the Vatican convened a secret meeting to hear their complaints — an extraordinary example of prelates from across the globe collectively pressing their superiors for reform, and one that had not previously been revealed.

    And the policy that resulted from that meeting, in contrast to the way it has been described by the Vatican, was not a sharp break with past practices. It was mainly a belated reaffirmation of longstanding church procedures that at least one bishop attending the meeting argued had been ignored for too long, according to church documents and interviews.

    The office led by Cardinal Ratzinger, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, had actually been given authority over sexual abuse cases nearly 80 years earlier, in 1922, documents show and canon lawyers confirm. But for the two decades he was in charge of that office, the future pope never asserted that authority, failing to act even as the cases undermined the church’s credibility in the United States, Australia, Ireland and elsewhere.

    Bishop Geoffrey Robinson, an outspoken auxiliary bishop emeritus from Sydney, Australia, who attended the secret meeting in 2000, said that despite numerous warnings, top Vatican officials, including Benedict, took far longer to wake up to the abuse problems than many local bishops did.

    “Why did the Vatican end up so far behind the bishops out on the front line, who with all their faults, did change — they did develop,” he said. “Why was the Vatican so many years behind?”

    Cardinal Ratzinger, of course, had not yet become pope, a divinely ordained office not accustomed to direction from below. John Paul, his longtime superior, often dismissed allegations of pedophilia by priests as an attack on the church by its enemies. Supporters say that Cardinal Ratzinger would have preferred to take steps earlier to stanch the damage in certain cases.

    But the future pope, it is now clear, was also part of a culture of nonresponsibility, denial, legalistic foot-dragging and outright obstruction. More than any top Vatican official other than John Paul, it was Cardinal Ratzinger who might have taken decisive action in the 1990s to prevent the scandal from metastasizing in country after country, growing to such proportions that it now threatens to consume his own papacy.

    As pope, Benedict has met with victims of sexual abuse three times. He belatedly reopened an investigation into the Rev. Marcial Maciel Degollado, founder of the Legionaries of Christ, a powerful religious order — and a protégé of John Paul’s — and ultimately removed him from ministry. He gave American bishops greater leeway to take a tough line on abuse in the United States, and recently accepted the resignations of several bishops elsewhere. And on June 11, at an event in St. Peter’s Square meant to celebrate priests, he begged “forgiveness from God and from the persons involved” and promised to do “everything possible” to prevent future abuse.

    But today the abuse crisis is still raging in the Catholic heartland of Europe: civil investigators in Belgium last week took the rare step of raiding church headquarters and the home of a former archbishop. The Vatican under Benedict is still responding to abuse by priests at its own pace, and it is being besieged by an outside world that wants it to move faster and more decisively.

    Vatican officials, who declined to answer detailed questions related to Benedict’s history, say that the church will announce another round of changes to its canon laws, as it did in 2001, so that the church can improve its response to the abuse problem.

    But the suggestion that more reforms are ahead is a nod to the fact that there is still widespread confusion among many bishops about how to handle allegations of abuse, and that their approaches are remarkably uneven from country to country.

    National bishops’ conferences in some countries have adopted their own norms and standards. But several decades after sexual abuse by priests became a problem, Benedict has not yet instituted a universal set of rules.

    Scandal and Confusion

    The sexual abuse scandal first caught much of the world’s attention in 2002, with reports that the Boston archdiocese had been covering up for molesters for years. But the alarm bells had already been sounding for nearly two decades in many countries. In Lafayette, La., in 1984, the Rev. Gilbert Gauthé admitted to molesting 37 youngsters. In 1989, a sensational case erupted at an orphanage in the Canadian province of Newfoundland. By the mid-1990s, about 40 priests and brothers in Australia faced abuse allegations. In 1994, the Irish government was brought down when it botched the extradition of a notorious pedophile priest.

    Bishops had a variety of disciplinary tools at their disposal — including the power to remove accused priests from contact with children and to suspend them from ministry altogether — that they could use without the Vatican’s direct approval.

    Some used this authority to sideline abusive priests, minimizing the damage inflicted on their victims. Other bishops clearly made things worse, by shuffling abusers from one assignment to the next, never telling parishioners or reporting priests to the police.

    But as court cases, financial settlements and media coverage mounted, many prelates looked to the Vatican for leadership and clarity on how to prosecute abusers under canon law and when to bring cases to the attention of the civil authorities. In the worst cases, involving serial offenders who denied culpability and resisted discipline, some bishops sought the Vatican’s guidance on how to dismiss them from the priesthood.

    For this, bishops needed the Vatican’s help. Dismissing a priest is not like disbarring a lawyer or stripping a doctor of his medical license. In Catholic theology, ordaining a priest creates an indelible mark; to return him to the lay state required the approval of the pope.

    Yet throughout the ’80s and ’90s, bishops who sought to penalize and dismiss abusive priests were daunted by a bewildering bureaucratic and canonical legal process, with contradicting laws and overlapping jurisdictions in Rome, according to church documents and interviews with bishops and canon lawyers.

    Besides Cardinal Ratzinger’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, bishops were sending off their files on abuse cases to the Congregations for the Clergy, for Bishops, for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, and for the Evangelization of Peoples — plus the Vatican’s Secretariat of State; its appeals court, the Apostolic Signatura; and the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts.

    “There was confusion everywhere,” said Archbishop Philip Edward Wilson of Adelaide, Australia.

    A new Code of Canon Law issued in 1983 only muddied things further, among other things by setting a five-year statute of limitations within which abuse cases could be prosecuted.

    During this period, the three dozen staff members working for Cardinal Ratzinger at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith were busy pursuing other problems. These included examining supernatural phenomena, like apparitions of the Virgin Mary, so that hoaxes did not “corrupt the faith,” according to the Rev. Brian Mulcahy, a former member of the staff. Other sections weighed requests by divorced Catholics to remarry and vetted the applications of former priests who wanted to be reinstated.

    The heart of the office, though, was its doctrinal section. Cardinal Ratzinger, a German theologian appointed prefect of the congregation in 1981, aimed his renowned intellectual firepower at what he saw as “a fundamental threat to the faith of the church” — the liberation theology movement sweeping across Latin America.

    As Father Gauthé was being prosecuted in Louisiana, Cardinal Ratzinger was publicly disciplining priests in Brazil and Peru for preaching that the church should work to empower the poor and oppressed, which the cardinal saw as a Marxist-inspired distortion of church doctrine. Later, he also reined in a Dutch theologian who thought lay people should be able to perform priestly functions, and an American who taught that Catholics could dissent from church teachings about abortion, birth control, divorce and homosexuality.

    Different Focus for Cardinal

    Cardinal Ratzinger also focused on reining in national bishops’ conferences, several of which, independent of Rome, had begun confronting the sexual abuse crisis and devising policies to address it in their countries. He declared that such conferences had “no theological basis” and “do not belong to the structure of the church.” Individual bishops, he reaffirmed, reigned supreme in their dioceses and reported only to the authority of the pope in Rome.

    Another hint of his priorities came at a synod in 1990, when a bishop from Calgary gingerly mentioned the growing sexual abuse problem in Canada. When Cardinal Ratzinger rose to speak, however, it was of a different crisis: the diminishing image of the priesthood since the Second Vatican Council, and the “huge drop” in the numbers of priests as many resigned.

    That concern — that the irrevocable commitment to the priesthood was being undermined by the exodus of priests leaving to marry or because they were simply disenchanted — had already led Cardinal Ratzinger to block the dismissal of at least one priest convicted of molestation, documents show.

    “Look at it from the perspective of priestly commitment,” said the Rev. Joseph Fessio, a former student of Cardinal Ratzinger’s and founder of the conservative publishing house Ignatius Press. “You want to get married? You’re still a priest. You’re a sex offender? Well, you’re still a priest. Rome is looking at it from the objective reality of the priesthood.”

    After another abuse scandal in 1992 in Fall River, Mass., bishops in the United States pressed the Vatican for an alternative to the slow and arcane canonical justice system. Without a full canonical trial, clerics accused of abuse could not be dismissed from the priesthood against their will (although a bishop could impose some restrictions short of that). In 1993, John Paul said he had heard the American bishops’ pleas and convened a joint commission of American and Vatican canonists to propose improvements.

    John Paul rejected its proposal to let bishops dismiss priests using administrative procedures, without canonical trials. But he agreed to raise the age of majority to 18 from 16 for child-molestation cases. More important, he extended the statute of limitations to 10 years after the victim’s 18th birthday.

    It is not known whether Cardinal Ratzinger spoke up in the internal deliberations that led to the two changes, which applied only to the United States.

    But those changes clearly did not go far enough. And as the crisis steadily spread in other countries, bishops and church administrators from across the English-speaking world began meeting to compare notes on how to respond to it. After gathering on their own in 1996 and 1998, they demanded that the Curia, the Vatican’s administration, meet with them in Rome in 2000.

    Frustrations Boil Over

    The visiting bishops had reached the boiling point. After flailing about for 20 years, with little guidance from Rome, as stories about pedophile priests embroiled the church in lawsuits, shame and scandal, they had flown in to Rome from Australia, Canada, England and Wales, Ireland, New Zealand, Scotland, South Africa, the United States and the West Indies.

    Many came out of frustration: the Vatican had too often thwarted bishops’ attempts to oust pedophile priests in their jurisdictions. Yet they had high hopes that they would make the case for reform. Nearly every major Vatican office was represented in the gathering, held in the same Vatican hotel that was built to house cardinals electing a new pope.

    “The message we wanted to get across was: if individuals are to hide behind church law and use that law to impede the ability of bishops to discipline priests, then we have to have a new way of moving forward,” said Eamonn Walsh, auxiliary bishop of Dublin, one of 17 bishops who attended from overseas. (He was one of several Irish bishops who offered the pope their resignations last year because of the abuse scandal, but his has not been accepted.)

    Yet many at the meeting grew dismayed as, over four long days in early April 2000, they heard senior Vatican officials dismiss clergy sexual abuse as a problem confined to the English-speaking world, and emphasize the need to protect the rights of accused priests over ensuring the safety of children, according to interviews with 10 church officials who attended the meeting.

    Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, then the head of the Congregation for the Clergy, set the tone, playing down sexual abuse as an unavoidable fact of life, and complaining that lawyers and the media were unfairly focused on it, according to a copy of his prepared remarks. What is more, he asked, is it not contradictory for people to be so outraged by sexual abuse when society also promotes sexual liberation?

    Another Vatican participant even observed that many pedophile priests had Irish surnames, a remark that offended delegates from Ireland.

    “Prejudices came out,” said Bishop Robinson of Australia. “There were some very silly things said at times.”

    Though disappointed, the visiting bishops were not entirely surprised.

    “It wasn’t that there was bad will in Rome,” Bishop Walsh said. “They just didn’t have the firsthand experience that the dioceses were having around the world — experience with the manipulative, devious ways of the perpetrators. If the perpetrator said, ‘I didn’t do it,’ they would say, ‘He wouldn’t be telling a lie, he has to be telling the truth, and he’s innocent until proven guilty.’ ”

    An exception to the prevailing attitude, several participants recalled, was Cardinal Ratzinger. He attended the sessions only intermittently and seldom spoke up. But in his only extended remarks, he made clear that he saw things differently from others in the Curia.

    “The speech he gave was an analysis of the situation, the horrible nature of the crime, and that it had to be responded to promptly,” recalled Archbishop Wilson of Australia, who was at the meeting in 2000. “I felt, this guy gets it, he’s understanding the situation we’re facing. At long last, we’ll be able to move forward.”

    Clarity Comes in a Letter

    Even so, the meeting served as much to expose Cardinal Ratzinger’s inattention to the problem as it did to showcase his new attitude.

    Archbishop Wilson said in an interview that during the session he had to call Vatican officials’ attention to long-ignored papal instructions, dating from 1922, and reissued in 1962, that gave Cardinal Ratzinger’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, previously known as the Holy Office, sole responsibility for deciding cases of priests accused of particularly heinous offenses: solicitation of sex during confession, homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality.

    Archbishop Wilson said he had stumbled across the old instructions as a canon law student in the early 1990s. And he eventually learned that canonists were deeply divided on whether the old instructions or the 1983 canon law — which were at odds on major points — should hold sway.

    If the old instructions had prevailed, then there would be no cause for confusion among bishops across the globe: all sexual abuse cases would fall under Cardinal Ratzinger’s jurisdiction.

    (The Vatican has recently insisted that Cardinal Ratzinger’s office was responsible only for cases related to priests who solicited sex in the confessional, but the 1922 instructions plainly gave his office jurisdiction over sexual abuse cases involving “youths of either sex” that did not involve violating the sacrament of confession.)

    Few people in the room had any idea what Archbishop Wilson was talking about, other participants recalled. But Archbishop Wilson said he had discussed the old papal instructions with Cardinal Ratzinger’s office in the late 1990s and had been told that they indeed were the prevailing law in pedophilia cases.

    Just over a year later, in May 2001, John Paul issued a confidential apostolic letter instructing that all cases of sexual abuse by priests were thenceforth to be handled by Cardinal Ratzinger’s office. The letter was called “Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela,” Latin for “Safeguarding the Sanctity of the Sacraments.”

    In an accompanying cover letter, Cardinal Ratzinger, who is said to have been heavily involved in drafting the main document, wrote that the 1922 and 1962 instructions that gave his office authority over sexual abuse by priests cases were “in force until now.”

    The upshot of that phrase, experts say, is that Catholic bishops around the world, who had been so confused for so long about what to do about molestation cases, could and should have simply directed them to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith all along.

    Bishops and canon law experts said in interviews that they could only speculate as to why the future pope had not made this clear many years earlier.

    “It makes no sense to me that they were sitting on this document,” said the Rev. John P. Beal, a canon law professor at the Catholic University of America. “Why didn’t they just say, ‘Here are the norms. If you need a copy we’ll send them to you?’ ”

    Nicholas P. Cafardi, a Catholic expert in canon law who is dean emeritus and professor of law at Duquesne University School of Law, said, “When it came to handling child sexual abuse by priests, our legal system fell apart.”

    There was additional confusion over the statute of limitations for sexual abuse cases — or whether there even was one, given the Vatican’s reaffirmation of the 1922 and 1962 papal instructions. Many bishops had believed that they could not prosecute cases against priests because they exceeded the five-year statute of limitations enacted in 1983, effectively shielding many molesters since victims of child abuse rarely came forward until they were well into adulthood.

    Mr. Cafardi, who is also the author of “Before Dallas: The U.S. Bishops’ Response to Clergy Sexual Abuse of Children,” argued that another effect of the 2001 apostolic letter was to impose a 10-year statute of limitations on pedophilia cases where, under a careful reading of canon law, none had previously applied.

    “When you think how much pain could’ve been prevented, if we only had a clear understanding of our own law,” he said. “It really is a terrible irony. This did not have to happen.”

    Though the apostolic letter was praised for bringing clarity to the subject, it also reaffirmed a requirement that such cases be handled with the utmost confidentiality, under the “pontifical secret” — drawing criticism from many who argued that the church remained unwilling to report abusers to civil law enforcement.

    Reforms, but Limited Reach

    After the new procedures were adopted, Cardinal Ratzinger’s office became more responsive to requests to discipline priests, said bishops who sought help from his office. But when the sexual abuse scandal erupted again, in Boston in 2002, it immediately became clear to American bishops that the new procedures were inadequate.

    Meeting in Dallas in the summer of 2002, the American bishops adopted a stronger set of canonical norms requiring bishops to report all criminal allegations to the secular authorities, and to permanently remove from ministry priests facing even one credible accusation of abuse. They also sought from the Vatican a streamlined way to discipline priests that would not require a drawn-out canonical trial.

    The Vatican initially rejected the American bishops’ proposed norms. A committee of American bishops and Vatican officials, including Cardinal Ratzinger’s deputy, watered down the American mandatory-reporting requirement to say only that bishops must comply with civil laws on reporting crimes, which vary widely from place to place.

    The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reserved for itself the power to dismiss a man from the priesthood without a full canonical trial — the kind of administrative remedy that American bishops had long been begging the Vatican to delegate to them.

    Even so, the American bishops got most of what they asked for, and Cardinal Ratzinger was their advocate, said Archbishop Wilton D. Gregory, then the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

    The Americans were allowed to keep their zero-tolerance provision for abusive priests, making the rules for the church in the United States far more stringent than in most of the rest of the world. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith also said it would waive the statute of limitations on a case-by-case basis if bishops asked.

    Archbishop Gregory said he made 13 trips to Rome in three years, almost always meeting with Cardinal Ratzinger.

    “He was extraordinarily supportive of what we were doing,” Archbishop Gregory said in an interview.

    Other reforms enacted by American bishops included requiring background checks for church personnel working with children, improved screening of seminarians, training in recognizing abuse, annual compliance audits in each diocese and lay review boards to advise bishops on how to deal with abuse cases.

    Those measures seem to be having an impact. Last year, according to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 513 people made allegations of sexual abuse against 346 priests or other church officials, roughly a third fewer cases than in 2008.

    Yet the Vatican did not proactively apply those policies to other countries, and it is only now grappling with abuse problems elsewhere. Reports have surfaced of bishops in Chile, Brazil, India and Italy who quietly kept accused priests in ministry without informing local parishioners or prosecutors.

    Benedict, now five years into his papacy, has yet to make clear if he intends to demand of bishops throughout the world — and of his own Curia — that all priests who committed abuse and bishops who abetted it must be punished.

    As the crisis has mushroomed internationally this year, some cardinals in the Vatican have continued to blame the news media and label the criticism anti-Catholic persecution. Benedict himself has veered from defensiveness to contrition, saying in March that the faithful should not be intimidated by “the petty gossip of dominant opinion” — and then in May telling reporters that “the greatest persecution of the church does not come from the enemies outside, but is born from the sin in the church.”

    The Vatican, moreover, has never made it mandatory for bishops around the world to report molesters to the civil authorities, or to alert parishes and communities where the abusive priests worked — information that often propels more victims to step forward. (Vatican officials caution that a reporting requirement could be dangerous in dictatorships and countries where the church is already subject to persecution.)

    It was only in April that the Vatican posted “guidelines” on its Web site saying that church officials should comply with civil laws on reporting abuse. But those are recommendations, not requirements.

    Today, a debate is roiling the Vatican, pitting those who see the American zero-tolerance norms as problematic because they lack due process for accused priests, against those who want to change canon law to make it easier to penalize and dismiss priests.

    Where Benedict lies on this spectrum, even after nearly three decades of handling abuse cases, is still an open question.


    Rachel Donadio contributed reporting from Rome.

    original story link;
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/wo...pagewanted=all
    Last edited by giovonni; 4th July 2010 at 03:59.

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    Israel Avalon Member PathWalker's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)

    " run by reptilians "


    you're kidding right
    No I am not kidding I am bringing the information from Jordan Maxwell interviews with Bill and Kerry
    Here and Here.

    Better research who is Jordan Maxwell and why he gained such great esteem by both Bill and Kerry.
    We are playing a virtual reality game, of duality. In the game of choices, align your choices with your ideals. Everything is whole, complete and perfect. Even yourself. Love is the power to change/create.

  5. Link to Post #165
    Canada Avalon Retired Member
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    I like a good story but I prefer facts

    so I don't base my world views on Mr Maxwell's claims of this and that


    now take a deep breath and read this again

    " run by reptilians "


    you're kidding right
    RedeZra, since the time you are here, it shouldn't surprise you. Jordan is not the only one talking about reptilians.
    Credo Mutwa has a lot to say about "the reptilian agenda" and if you prefer facts, Credo has predicted the oil spill, first in the "90" and confirmed it in January this year. It makes him an unavoidable man to listen to what he has to say. I've heard so many predictions that never came to be true here on Avalon. Now, that we have a man that knows is material, we should be all ears. He his far from kidding. Just like the Pathwalker and Jordan Maxwell.

    Namaste, Steven
    Last edited by Steven; 4th July 2010 at 11:56.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by Steven (here)
    RedeZra, since the time you are here, it shouldn't surprise you. Jordan is not the only one talking about reptilians.
    Credo Mutwa has a lot to say about "the reptilian agenda" ...

    right I am not so surprised


    Credo brings some credence but I need a little bit of evidence

    before I believe

    this reptilian agenda

    as a fact of nature and not a freak of mind


    til then to me

    dino is not back with a vengance

    at least not without help from some of our crazy scientists

    now that is not impossible
    Last edited by RedeZra; 4th July 2010 at 15:23.

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    [I][CENTER]...as a fact of nature and not a freak of mind...
    Yes, to this, I totally agree. That is why digging deep with open mind is so important.

    Namaste, Steven

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    The concept of Reptilians I have the greatest problem with.
    We all have a reptilian brain with the addition of a frontal cortex, thats a biological evolution fact.
    Regarding the main topic.
    There is great danger in labeling and putting everything in that box.
    Its like saying all priest are not to be trusted near children.
    A very small percentage of people from all walks of life prey on children.
    Religion in general held the place for millions of people to become aware of God.
    Once awareness of God is there then people can find there own way of developing their spirituality.
    Lumping religion into a box of something to be avoided and worse is not helpful.
    We may be moving to a place where religion becomes redundant but till then it serves a useful purpose, many benefit from it in countless ways.
    With respect for all varying opinions
    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    With all the respect, I would like to quote a known person in this forum who said: The truth will set you free but first will piss you off.
    I invite you all to watch the recent interviews with David Icke and Jordan Maxwell.
    As for the Catholic church and the vatican.
    The religion is only a cover up for a control system. It was always like this in all organized religions. Even the eastern religions as well.
    So I try to look beyond the veil, I research the material from Jordan Maxwell and David Icke.
    I learn to trust my senses as for what rings and what is dis-info.

    So do not just believe do your research, also do not perceive reptilians as bad.

    Reptilians are what they are with a purpose. A predator has purpose as well as illness.
    When our perception evolve beyond duality (bad/good, hate/love, male/female, ying/yang), our soul evolve. Still we have to stay in the dualistic/polerized reality since we came here with purpose and service. Every each one of us, soul bearing spiritual entities.

    To cut the BS short. Take it all with a grain of salt, it is a game after all. The game never ends. Our soul never die.
    We are playing a virtual reality game, of duality. In the game of choices, align your choices with your ideals. Everything is whole, complete and perfect. Even yourself. Love is the power to change/create.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)
    With all the respect, I would like to quote a known person in this forum who said: The truth will set you free but first will piss you off.
    I invite you all to watch the recent interviews with David Icke and Jordan Maxwell.
    As for the Catholic church and the vatican.
    The religion is only a cover up for a control system. It was always like this in all organized religions. Even the eastern religions as well.
    So I try to look beyond the veil, I research the material from Jordan Maxwell and David Icke.
    I learn to trust my senses as for what rings and what is dis-info.

    So do not just believe do your research, also do not perceive reptilians as bad.

    Reptilians are what they are with a purpose. A predator has purpose as well as illness.
    When our perception evolve beyond duality (bad/good, hate/love, male/female, ying/yang), our soul evolve. Still we have to stay in the dualistic/polerized reality since we came here with purpose and service. Every each one of us, soul bearing spiritual entities.

    To cut the BS short. Take it all with a grain of salt, it is a game after all. The game never ends. Our soul never die.
    Agreed
    Ultimately only God is.
    The rest is the in breath and out breath, Idras dream -- Maya ---- Illusion--- enjoy the play of consciousness.

    Respectfully
    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)
    As for the Catholic church and the vatican.
    The religion is only a cover up for a control system. It was always like this in all organized religions. Even the eastern religions as well.

    So do not just believe do your research, also do not perceive reptilians as bad.
    the messenger is as important as the message

    some are in it for the profit and some are out to fool us

    so this calls for extreme discernments on the part of the researcher


    one must be spiritual blind to not see the attack on religion and spiritual personages


    we are not battling reptilians

    but played by powerful brothers and sisters in high places


    " we have met the enemy and he is us " - Pogo
    Last edited by RedeZra; 4th July 2010 at 23:43.

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    Lightbulb Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World


    Pogo


    most definitely

  13. Link to Post #173
    Israel Avalon Member PathWalker's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    the messenger is as important as the message

    we are not battling reptilians

    but played by powerful brothers and sisters in high places
    I agree with RedeZra. We are not battling.
    Once you get into fight mode you lose. The low of opposites apply here. When you apply force you get the same back at you.
    When you are aware and engage in a different mode of operation the game change.
    We are now changing the game.
    If we stop blaming, victimizing, complying with TPTB. Then we empower ourselves and regain our sovereignty.
    We gave up our sovereignty and now we take it back. Once we fight about it the battle is/will be perpetual as the history of modern civilization.
    So the first step is research and broaden your perspective. Then empower yourself.
    Last edited by PathWalker; 5th July 2010 at 10:09.
    We are playing a virtual reality game, of duality. In the game of choices, align your choices with your ideals. Everything is whole, complete and perfect. Even yourself. Love is the power to change/create.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)
    I agree with RedeZra. We are not battling.
    Once you get into fight mode you lose. The low of opposites apply here. When you apply force you get the same back at you.
    When you are aware and engage in a different mode of operation the game change.
    We are now changing the game.
    If we stop blaming, victimizing, complying with TPTB. Then we empower ourselves and regain our sovereignty.
    We gave up our sovereignty and now we take it back. Once we fight about it the battle is/will be perpetual as the history of modern civilization.
    So the first step is research and broaden your perspective. Then empower yourself.
    Exactly!!!!
    Thats it.
    Nothing is ever solved at the level it was created.
    The moment an enemy is perceived then the same energy is at play.
    If they knew better they would do better.
    Love is the substrate of all life we call on that energy then we shine the light on darkness till not even a shadow exists.
    The analogy of light and darkness is correct in that darkness is an illusion.
    Think not?
    Then try shining darkness, it has no reality. Lol.
    Darkness is the absence of light or in other words the absence of Love.

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    " we have met the enemy and he is us " - Pogo


    as it has always been

    humans deceiving and killing humans


    are we not tired yet


    how can it ever stop as long as we like to live a lie

    that we are evolutionary animals or a genetic breed of aliens


    Jesus didn't come to fool us and His words are here for all to see

    but perhaps you live the lie that He didn't come and that His words are false


    TPTB in the Western world will not live up to His commandments

    they are born into houses of privilege and power and want to keep that by all means and at all costs for their own future lines


    it's not so hard to understand


    but why do you believe their lies

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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)
    I agree with RedeZra. We are not battling.
    Once you get into fight mode you lose. The low of opposites apply here. When you apply force you get the same back at you.
    When you are aware and engage in a different mode of operation the game change.
    We are now changing the game.
    If we stop blaming, victimizing, complying with TPTB. Then we empower ourselves and regain our sovereignty.
    We gave up our sovereignty and now we take it back. Once we fight about it the battle is/will be perpetual as the history of modern civilization.
    So the first step is research and broaden your perspective. Then empower yourself.
    Yes PathWalker, you are right, "stop blaming, victimizing, complying with TPTB", the game is, therefore, different and if we are able to add positive actions on it, we're leveraging.

    Deega

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    Post Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    From

    NORMS-REVISION (UPDATED) Jul-9-2010 (630 words) xxxi

    Revised Vatican norms to cover sex abuse, attempted women's ordination

    By John Thavis
    Catholic News Service

    VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The Vatican is preparing to update the 2001 norms that deal with priestly sex abuse of minors, in effect codifying practices that have been in place for several years.

    At the same time, it will include the "attempted ordination of women" among the list of most serious crimes against church law, or "delicta graviora," sources said.

    Sexual abuse of a minor by a priest was added to the classification of "delicta graviora" in 2001. At that time the Vatican established norms to govern the handling of such cases.

    The revisions of those norms have been in the pipeline for some time and were expected to be published in mid-July, Vatican sources said. While the changes are not "earthshaking," they will ultimately strengthen the church's efforts to identify and discipline priests who abuse minors, the sources said.

    The revisions will be published with ample documentation and will be accompanied by a glossary of church law terms, aimed at helping nonexperts understand the complex rules and procedures that the Vatican has in place for dealing with sex abuse allegations.

    The revisions were expected to extend the church law's statute of limitations on accusations of sexual abuse, from 10 years after the alleged victim's 18th birthday to 20 years. For several years, Vatican officials have been routinely granting exceptions to the 10-year statute of limitations.

    The revisions also make it clear that use of child pornography would fall under the category of clerical sexual abuse of minors. In 2009, the Vatican determined that any instance of a priest downloading child pornography from the Internet would be a form of serious abuse that a bishop must report to the doctrinal congregation, which oversees cases of sexual abuse.

    In addition, the revisions will make clear that abuse of mentally disabled adults will be considered equivalent to abuse of minors. In the law on the sexual abuse of minors, the term "minors" will include "persons of who suffer from permanent mental disability," sources said.

    When Pope John Paul II promulgated the norms on priestly sex abuse in 2001, he gave the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith juridical control over such cases.

    The revisions incorporate changes made by Pope John Paul in 2003; those simplified some of the procedures and gave the doctrinal congregation the power, in some "very grave and clear cases," to laicize without an ecclesiastical trial priests who have sexually abused minors.

    In April, the Vatican placed online a guide to understanding the church's provisions for sex abuse cases. That guide mentioned the revisions under preparation and said those revisions would not change the basic procedures already in place.

    The sources said the Vatican was not preparing to publish other documents on priestly sex abuse. Although some have argued that some of the strict sex abuse norms adopted by U.S. bishops in 2002 should be universalized, the sources said there was no imminent plan to do that.

    Pope John Paul's 2001 document distinguished between two types of "most grave crimes," those committed in the celebration of the sacraments and those committed against morals. Among the sacramental crimes were such things as desecration of the Eucharist and violation of the seal of confession.

    Under the new revisions, the "attempted ordination of women" will be listed among those crimes, as a serious violation of the sacrament of holy orders, informed sources said. As such, it will be handled under the procedures set up for investigating "delicta graviora" under the control of the doctrinal congregation.

    In 2008, the doctrinal congregation formally decreed that a woman who attempts to be ordained a Catholic priest and the person attempting to ordain her are automatically excommunicated. In 1994, Pope John Paul said the church's ban on women priests is definitive and not open to debate among Catholics.

    END

    CNS link here;
    http://www.catholicnews.com/data/sto...ns/1002793.htm

    Copyright (c) 2010 Catholic News Service/USCCB. All rights reserved.
    This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed.
    CNS · 3211 Fourth St NE · Washington DC 20017

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    Thumbs down Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Women's groups describe Vatican's decision on female ordination as 'appalling'

    * John Hooper in Rome and Haroon Siddique
    * guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 July 2010 21.03 BST



    FRANCE-RELIGION-FEMME-PRETRE Three ‘bishops’ at the ordination of a female French priest in Lyons in 2005. All four women were excommunicated. From left: South African Patricia Fresen, Austrian Christine Mayr-Lumetzberger and German Gisela Forster. Photograph: Jean-Pierre Clatot/AFP

    It was meant to be the document that put a lid on the clerical sex abuse scandals that have swept the Roman Catholic world. But instead of quelling fury from within and without the church, the Vatican stoked the anger of liberal Catholics and women's groups by including a provision in its revised decree that made the "attempted ordination" of women one of the gravest crimes in ecclesiastical law.

    The change put the "offence" on a par with the sex abuse of minors.

    Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, called the document "one of the most insulting and misogynistic pronouncements that the Vatican has made for a very long time. Why any self-respecting woman would want to remain part of an organisation that regards their full and equal participation as a 'grave sin' is a mystery to me."

    Vivienne Hayes, the chief executive of the Women's Resource Centre, said the decision to raise women's ordination to the level of a serious crime was "appalling".

    She added: "This declaration is doubly disempowering for women as it also closes the door on dialogue around women's access to power and decision making, when they are still under-represented in all areas of political, religious and civic life. We would urge the Catholic church to acknowledge that women's rights are not incompatible with religious faith."

    Ceri Goddard, chief executive of the Fawcett Society, said: "We are sure that the vast majority of the general public will share in our abject horror at the Vatican's decision to categorise the ordination of women as an 'offence' in the same category as paedophilia – deemed to be one of the 'gravest offences a priest can commit'.

    "This statement follows a series where the Vatican, an institution which yields great influence and power not only in the Catholic community but also wider society, has pitched itself in direct opposition not only to women's rights but to our equal worth and value. We hope this is an issue that the government takes the opportunity to raise if it still feels the impending papal visit is appropriate."

    The revision of a decree first issued nine years ago was intended to address the issue of clerical sex abuse. Last night it remained unclear why the Vatican had decided to invite further controversy by changing the status of women's ordination in canon law.

    Since scandals blew up in Germany in January, five Roman Catholic bishops have resigned as evidence has come to light of priests who raped or molested children, and of superiors who turned a blind eye to safeguard the reputation of the church. Data from countries in which church membership is officially registered suggest tens of thousands of Catholics, perhaps hundreds of thousands, have abandoned their faith in disgust.

    Father Federico Lombardi, the pope's spokesman, stressed that the new rules on sex abuse applied solely to procedures for defrocking priests under canon law. They had no bearing on whether suspected offenders were notified to the civil authorities – he said bishops had already been reminded of their duty to do so.

    The most important change is to extend the period during which a clergyman can be tried by a church court from 10 to 20 years, dating from the 18th birthday of his victim. Many people who were abused by priests are unable to summon up the courage to come forward until well into adulthood.

    The new norms also streamline the procedures for dealing with the most urgent and serious cases, enabling bishops to defrock priests without a long, costly trial. They put abuse of the mentally disabled on a level with that of minors. And they introduce a new crime of paedophile pornography, defined as "the acquisition, possession or disclosure" by a clergyman of pornographic images of children below the age of 14.

    Monsignor Charles Scicluna, who helped overhaul the rules, said: "This gives a signal that we are very, very serious in our commitment to promote safe environments and to offer an adequate response to abuse."

    Lombardi said the Vatican was working on further instructions "so that the directives it issues on the subject of sexual abuse of minors, either by the clergy or institutions connected with the church, may be increasingly rigorous, coherent and effective".

    But Barbara Doris of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (Snap) said it was tackling the issue the wrong way round. "Defrocking a predator, by definition, is too late," she said. "Severe harm has already been done."


    original story link here;
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...on-grave-crime

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    Lightbulb Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Love and Forgiveness

    And God created man in His own image, in the image of God. He created him: man and female He created them
    Genesis 1:27

    The Last Prayer
    "Beloved Father, do you think they understood the true meaning of my message, my life? That Ye are all Gods. That Ye do greater works than I, for I am leaving this plane. Do you think they understood my prayer when I said Beloved Father let them be one as we are one, that within them resides a loving, joyous, wise and powerful manifesting God waiting to unfold? Do you think they understood the true meaning of my death and my resurrection, which was to conquer the greatest of all challenges and fears, which is death itself? Do you think they understood unconditional love, infinite compassion and forgiveness? Will it take another 2,000 years of fear, unworthiness, separation, the worshiping and warring over names, images and doctrines before they find peace, unity and the God within them? Will they ever understand the one law which supersedes all laws, which is the law of love?

    That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.
    John 17:21



    with much love and blessings~ to all my brothers and sister ~ giovonni

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: At the Vatican, Up Against the World

    Quote Posted by giovonni (here)
    Love and Forgiveness

    And God created man in His own image, in the image of God. He created him: man and female He created them
    Genesis 1:27

    The Last Prayer
    "Beloved Father, do you think they understood the true meaning of my message, my life? That Ye are all Gods. That Ye do greater works than I, for I am leaving this plane. Do you think they understood my prayer when I said Beloved Father let them be one as we are one, that within them resides a loving, joyous, wise and powerful manifesting God waiting to unfold? Do you think they understood the true meaning of my death and my resurrection, which was to conquer the greatest of all challenges and fears, which is death itself? Do you think they understood unconditional love, infinite compassion and forgiveness? Will it take another 2,000 years of fear, unworthiness, separation, the worshiping and warring over names, images and doctrines before they find peace, unity and the God within them? Will they ever understand the one law which supersedes all laws, which is the law of love?

    That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.
    John 17:21



    with much love and blessings~ to all my brothers and sister ~ giovonni
    Well that says it all Giovonni..
    My knowledge of the bible is nonexistent so I really appreciate this.
    Thanks
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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