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Thread: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

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    Default Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Ladies and Gentlemen

    there is a power in shifting focus from retrospective analysis of un productive mis management to not caring about it .. if you shift your focus to the answers and then proceed into that direction you find the power of the united people becomes a peaceful voice of consumer preference.

    I bring to attention one such mechanism.

    ETHANOL.

    A renewable scource of energy.
    Cleaner for the enviroment.
    A shifter of the power to the people.



    Support companies that support the use of renewable energy

    http://www.holden.com.au/about/innov...Holden+Ethanol

    I have been studying free energy devices and renewable internal combustion fuel scources for just over 2 decades.

    Ethanol is a very good stepping stone to cleaner enviroments. Ethanol burns up to 65% cleaner than other avail fuelstocks ( that is an under statement its much higher than that )

    Immagine cleaner air ! ?

    I have been to countries that use Ethanol and the air is so much cleaner. Food stocks are cleaner , water is cleaner and heath is so much better.

    Have a look at converting your car or motorbike to Ethanol.

    Every way i look at it ( and i have so many times ) its a win.


    Naniu

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    while on the surface it appears to be a cleaner fuel, the maths doesn't seem to add up.

    From what i have read it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is contained in it. Energy that invariably comes from fossil fuels. And at the cost of soil depletion and increased grain prices.

    While cleaner air in the cities would be nice, in this case it would come at a large cost to the environment. There are better solutions.

    (unless you have the capacity to produce your own ethanol in which case it would be clearly better)

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    In breif how ethanol works.

    Because of its molecular structure, ethanol when heated becomes a gas which can be compressed up to 3 times that of conventional fuels. This means you will use more however the power output of the unit will increase considerably. The other positive is it burns completely and in its conversion from gas to flame its final output is CO2 and H2O

    scource wiki

    "ethanol is a type of alcohol, in the oxygenated hydrocarbon class of compounds. when it combines rapidly with oxygen in a combustion reaction, the ethanol is used up, and with oxygen forms carbon dioxide and water. ethanol is quite literally gone, it is broken down and reformed into new products, which is the definition of a chemical reaction."

    Here is another scource

    http://www.east-buc.k12.ia.us/01_02/rxn/kelly/kelly.htm


    Naniu

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by wolf_rt (here)
    while on the surface it appears to be a cleaner fuel, the maths doesn't seem to add up.

    From what i have read it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is contained in it. Energy that invariably comes from fossil fuels. And at the cost of soil depletion and increased grain prices.

    While cleaner air in the cities would be nice, in this case it would come at a large cost to the environment. There are better solutions.

    (unless you have the capacity to produce your own ethanol in which case it would be clearly better)
    Soil degradation comes from extracting minerals from the soil which happens when you mine oil.

    Do some homework about renewable crops.

    Quote Energy that invariably comes from fossil fuels. And at the cost of soil depletion and increased grain prices.
    can you please show us how you came to this conclusion ?



    N
    Last edited by Nanoo Nanoo; 12th September 2013 at 23:03.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by wolf_rt (here)
    while on the surface it appears to be a cleaner fuel, the maths doesn't seem to add up.

    From what i have read it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is contained in it. Energy that invariably comes from fossil fuels. And at the cost of soil depletion and increased grain prices.

    While cleaner air in the cities would be nice, in this case it would come at a large cost to the environment. There are better solutions.

    (unless you have the capacity to produce your own ethanol in which case it would be clearly better)
    a larger cost to the enviroment ? renewable energy scource costs the enviroment ? did you think about what you are saying before you said it ?

    what are the better solutions ? please , we need to know ? you should qualify your statements.

    Thank you

    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Here are some answers to misconceptions of 30 yeaer old data surrounding older technology of ethanol production.

    http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Yes but with the newer electro-magnetic energies and zero point, the electric grid, and transportation of rail can be used, while the personal auto converted engine can have ethanol, because you are NOT using the fossil fuel to make it, but zero point and or electro-magnetic. If you put fossil=electric, you get that answer, but em=electricity=power to make that fuel to drive.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Lifebringer (here)
    Yes but with the newer electro-magnetic energies and zero point, the electric grid, and transportation of rail can be used, while the personal auto converted engine can have ethanol, because you are NOT using the fossil fuel to make it, but zero point and or electro-magnetic. If you put fossil=electric, you get that answer, but em=electricity=power to make that fuel to drive.
    Yes i agree fully but can you point to where this technology is and is being used and is readily avail ?

    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    If Tesla's black box; Stan meyers electrolyzer; schaubergers repulsin and thousands more can be suppressed, what makes you think ethanol is an exemption. First things first.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Its all comes down to money - if its too expensive, they wont bother.
    I work for an electricity company....(dont hate me...im just an office monkey) Im always bringing it up - and im always hit with MONEY.
    Green energy costs allot - the wind farms dont produce enough
    Il watch / read the links when i get home, regarding Ethanol <3 silly work pcs block everything.Thanks for an interesting thread. xx

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Ethanol is AN answer among MANY OPTIONS available NOW. The problem I have seen with that as THE answer is water table issues as with all liquid fuels and lack of efficiency of manufacturing large scale. Small scale community use different - especially when harnesing wide range to gasify.

    Bottom line: The more we use Renewables that Are Available Now, the faster we will transition OUT of the EMBARGO OF ADVANCED ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES; the more new ECONOMIC MARKETS are created; and the better the understanding that these are the tools of creating civil society. ENERGY=CIVILIZATION.

    Number 1 is becoming more efficient and becoming ACTIVE about the energy/electricity that you use to function, yourself, your family. This really reduces the demand.

    Number 2 is evaluating what resources are available to you in your community. If in a dry sunny state, there is significant solar from small scale to large scale and better yet, SOLAR THERMAL. Combined with biofuels and new gasifiers, there is no reason not to individually or work with your community to use multi-techs to power. If you are in cold climates, geothermal, plus solar thermal, biofuels, trash to fuel, wind where appropriate with the new storage batteries, tidal...

    Deciding that you are no longer going to suck off the tit of Big Brother Energy Company and support the supply line of war is the first step.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    we have technologies to produce enough energy ... its all about control and the oil is 100% controlled atm so dont expect any change if the same people are making the decisions ... simple as that.

    Personally i think using anykind of crops to create fuel is wrong. We need to use the land for survival (food medicine etc) not for fuel.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    If Tesla's black box; Stan meyers electrolyzer; schaubergers repulsin and thousands more can be suppressed, what makes you think ethanol is an exemption. First things first.
    i dont think you have looked at the information i presented in my original OP. It is being used right now and brazil is a prime example as it has been free of Oil for the last 30 years.

    the reason and i re iterate the the title of my op ( sometimes i get the feeling people just want to oppose instead of read ) is to CHANGE the power of Oil by supporting alternative renewable energy. This puts power back inot the hands of consumers by intorducing competition.

    Brazil again as a good example as a country that has amazing food crops and renewable energy all in the same country. They rely on very little import of food crops as they are self sufficient. So this by example thats happened for the past 30 years is a model that it can work.

    As far as introducing technology IE machinery , this is a harder concept because it requires manufacturing of material parts which can be controlled. The mechanical parts rely heavily still on oil based energy production so there in lies a tap.

    Creating a liquid from free growing food crops is another animal all together and is infinitely harder to take control over.

    This competition gives the whole market place a new meaning.

    Food crops , leaving land for food , sugar cane and potatoes can grow together with other food crops , no problem. Food waste is huge and is something we should look at closer if you are worried about food crops, however for the purposes of this thread i present an exciting scource of Renewable Energy as a STEPPING STONE towards releasing such a high level of control over our energies . Once this huge control is broken then i forsee the technologies that already exist may come to the surface and further enforce our position.

    In the mean time renewable energy is a fantastic idea as it puts power back into our hands and its creating a cleaner air stock on this planet.

    Naniu

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Etherios (here)
    we have technologies to produce enough energy ... its all about control and the oil is 100% controlled atm so dont expect any change if the same people are making the decisions ... simple as that.

    Personally i think using anykind of crops to create fuel is wrong. We need to use the land for survival (food medicine etc) not for fuel.
    Survival ? try surviving without energy ... without energy and without clean energy you cannot make crops and medicine.

    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by surfer (here)
    Ethanol is AN answer among MANY OPTIONS available NOW. The problem I have seen with that as THE answer is water table issues as with all liquid fuels and lack of efficiency of manufacturing large scale. Small scale community use different - especially when harnesing wide range to gasify.

    Bottom line: The more we use Renewables that Are Available Now, the faster we will transition OUT of the EMBARGO OF ADVANCED ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES; the more new ECONOMIC MARKETS are created; and the better the understanding that these are the tools of creating civil society. ENERGY=CIVILIZATION.

    Number 1 is becoming more efficient and becoming ACTIVE about the energy/electricity that you use to function, yourself, your family. This really reduces the demand.

    Number 2 is evaluating what resources are available to you in your community. If in a dry sunny state, there is significant solar from small scale to large scale and better yet, SOLAR THERMAL. Combined with biofuels and new gasifiers, there is no reason not to individually or work with your community to use multi-techs to power. If you are in cold climates, geothermal, plus solar thermal, biofuels, trash to fuel, wind where appropriate with the new storage batteries, tidal...

    Deciding that you are no longer going to suck off the tit of Big Brother Energy Company and support the supply line of war is the first step.
    excellent post ! thank you , its about getting behind new and renewable energy. this changes the power structure.

    changing the power structure gives us back freedom of choices and ultimately our civil liberties.


    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Etherios (here)

    Personally i think using anykind of crops to create fuel is wrong. We need to use the land for survival (food medicine etc) not for fuel.
    I agree. Fact anything that smokes can be burned, inside the ICE. Wood leaves included and also can be converted into ethanol by thermal cracking or steam reforming using the heat of exhaust of the engine that burns the ethanol. With the added advantage of adding water or converting water to fuel once it reacts with the woodgas. But that would mean burning our forest.

    I agree with you, N that the technology is doable as exhibited by your example, Brazil, But my feeling is that there lies a trap ahead once the rest of the world follow suite.

    In the meantime why don't you put an electrolyzer inside the microwave and see what happens.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    By the way use the minimum microwave power and increase as needed. Dad Garrets periodic pole reversal will also greatly increase the efficiency. Water is more abundant safer (produce on demand), cleaner and can be use on ICE. I just do not see the rationale of burning the forest when we can burn water.

    water is FREE
    Last edited by Bubu; 14th September 2013 at 01:19.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    By the way use the minimum microwave power and increase as needed. Dad Garrets periodic pole reversal will also greatly increase the efficiency. Water is more abundant safer (produce on demand), cleaner and can be use on ICE. I just do not see the rationale of burning the forest when we can burn water.

    water is FREE
    so you want to burn our most precious rescource ? water ? i know it returns back to water once it is used.. i have built hydrogen generators.. ethically i think water is a rescource to be left alone. hmmm i dont think you have thought this through. Once water becomes a fuel scource try purchasing it or getting it free... it will be controlled and regulated. Not what i envisage as a future for water.

    water is the one thing we should leave well alone.

    making crops to harvest for energy , renewable energy is by far a better stepping stone. a good example is if we were to use hemp plants for textiles instead of wood pulp we would have to use 5 times less chemicals in processing the fibres and and end result is a much stronger fibre based product.

    this is the same thing ... instead of using oil which is mined out of the earths crust and de mineralises the planet ( which arguably is the worst thing for the planet ) we can manufacture a clean energy scource which can run the billions of existing cars and machinery with minimal conversion.

    In thailand you can purchase wood grain alcohol and run your car or moped on it and its sold by farmers. its a clean fuel and the machinery runs better on it.



    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    I think hydrogen is the way to go. You need deionized water, DC power, palladium as the fuel cell.
    Fuel cells using palladium catalysts generate power by the electrochemical reaction in which oxygen and hydrogen are combined.


    The thing that bewilders me is that why cant it get above 70% Electrical Efficiency? What metal is the most active catalyst for High-temperature fuel cells.

    Types of Fuel Cells

    Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cell (PEM)

    Electrolyte: Solid polymer membrane
    Catalyst: Platinum is the most active catalyst for low-temperature fuel cells
    Operating Temperature: Around 175-200⁰F
    Electrical Efficiency: 40-60 percent

    PEM fuel cells operate at relatively low temperatures, have high power density, and can vary output quickly to meet shifts in power demand. PEMs are well-suited to power applications where quick startup is required, such as automobiles or forklifts. Single PEM units range from several watts to several kilowatts, and can be scaled into larger systems – the largest to date is a 1 megawatt PEM stationary power plant. PEM systems are available today for a variety of applications, with sales focused in the telecommunications, data center and residential markets (primary or backup power), and to power forklifts and other material handling vehicles. PEM fuel cells are also used in buses and demonstration passenger vehicles – major auto manufacturers anticipate the start of commercial fuel cell vehicle sales around 2014-2016. PEMs are fueled with hydrogen gas, methanol, or reformed fuels.

    High-temperature PEM (HT-PEM) fuel cells are similar to PEM fuel cells, but operate at higher temperatures, between 250⁰F and 390⁰F. HT-PEMs are often integrated with fuel reformers, permitting operation using wider variety of input fuels. HT-PEMs can be used to power vehicles as range extenders for batteries, and small scale commercial buildings and homes.

    Direct Methanol Fuel Cell (DMFC)

    Electrolyte: Solid polymer membrane
    Catalyst: Platinum is the most common
    Operating Temperature: Around 125-250⁰F
    Electrical Efficiency: Up to 40 percent

    DMFCs are similar to PEM fuel cells in that they both use a polymer membrane as the electrolyte. However, in DMFC systems the anode catalyst itself draws the hydrogen from liquid methanol, eliminating the need for a fuel reformer. The low operating temperature makes DMFCs attractive for miniature applications such as cell phones, laptops, and battery chargers for consumer electronics, to mid-size applications powering electronics on RVs, boats, or camping cabins.

    Alkaline Fuel Cell (AFC)

    Electrolyte: Potassium hydroxide solution in water
    Catalyst: Can use a variety of non-precious metal catalysts
    Operating Temperature: Around 225-475⁰F
    Electrical Efficiency: 60-70 percent

    NASA has used hydrogen-fueled AFCs on space missions since the 1960s to provide both electricity and drinking water. AFCs are poisoned easily by small quantities of CO2, and are thus deployed primarily in controlled aerospace and underwater environments.

    Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC)

    Electrolyte: Liquid phosphoric acid ceramic in a lithium aluminum oxide matrix
    Catalyst: Carbon-supported platinum catalyst
    Operating Temperature: 350-400⁰F
    Electrical Efficiency: 36-42 percent

    PAFCs can operate using reformed hydrocarbon fuels or biogas. Anode and cathode reactions are similar to PEMs, but since operating temperatures are higher, PAFCs are more tolerant of fuel impurities. PAFCs are frequently used in a cogeneration mode, in which byproduct heat is captured for onsite heating, cooling, and hot water (also called combined heat and power, or CHP). PAFCs are commercially available today with systems operating around the world at high-energy demand sites such as hospitals, schools, office buildings, grocery stores, manufacturing or processing centers, and wastewater treatment plants.

    Molten Carbonate Fuel Cell (MCFC)

    Electrolyte: Typically consists of alkali (Na & K) carbonates retained in a ceramic matrix of LiHO2
    Catalyst: High MCFC operating temperature permits the use of lower-cost, non-platinum group catalysts
    Operating Temperature: Around 1,200 ⁰F
    Electrical Efficiency: 50-60 percent

    The high operating temperatures of MCFCs means that hydrocarbon fuels can be converted to hydrogen within the fuel cell itself (internal reforming). MCFCs are not prone to CO or CO2 “poisoning” – they can even use carbon oxides as fuel – making them more attractive for fueling with gases made from coal. MCFCs are ideal for large stationary power and CHP applications, and are available as commercial products, with dozens of power plants deployed at food and beverage processing facilities, manufacturing plants, hospitals, prisons, hotels, colleges and universities, utilities, and wastewater treatment plants worldwide.

    Solid Oxide Fuel Cells (SOFC)

    Electrolyte: A solid ceramic, typically yttria-stabilized zirconia (YSZ)
    Catalyst: High SOFC operating temperature permits the use of lower-cost, non-platinum group catalysts
    Operating Temperature: About 1,800⁰F
    Electrical Efficiency: 50-60 percent

    High-temperature SOFCs are capable of internal reforming of “light” hydrocarbons such as natural gas, but heavier hydrocarbons (gasoline, jet fuel) can be used, though they require an external reformer. There are two configurations of SOFC fuel cell systems: one type uses an array of meter-long tubes, and another uses compressed discs. Tubular SOFC designs are closer to commercialization and are being produced by companies around the world. SOFCs are suitable for large stationary applications, and are being deployed across the country at data centers, office buildings and retail stores. SOFCs are also being demonstrated for use as vehicle auxiliary power units and tested for small stationary applications, such as homes and apartments in the U.S., Japan, and Germany.

    http://www.fuelcells.org/base.cgim?t..._of_fuel_cells

    My dad's work
    http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PA...extfmt=default



    Well it looks like i answered my own question lol.
    The material could replace platinum in hydrogen vehicles.
    http://www.technologyreview.com/news...er-fuel-cells/

    Some cool snipets of info

    material carbon iron nitrogen compound

    costs between $1,000 and $2,000 an ounce

    Location exclusively in just two countries: South Africa and Russia

    (INRS) in Quebec have dramatically increased the performance of this type of iron-based catalyst


    THIS IS HUGE IT WILL REPLACE PLATINUM BASED FUEL CELLS


    John Tittor says two things that pop out at me.

    Hydrogen fuel cells and more efficient solar cells are big deals.

    Russia is now our largest trading partner.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    By the way use the minimum microwave power and increase as needed. Dad Garrets periodic pole reversal will also greatly increase the efficiency. Water is more abundant safer (produce on demand), cleaner and can be use on ICE. I just do not see the rationale of burning the forest when we can burn water.

    water is FREE
    so you want to burn our most precious rescource ? water ? i know it returns back to water once it is used.. i have built hydrogen generators.. ethically i think water is a rescource to be left alone. hmmm i dont think you have thought this through. Once water becomes a fuel scource try purchasing it or getting it free... it will be controlled and regulated. Not what i envisage as a future for water.

    water is the one thing we should leave well alone.

    making crops to harvest for energy , renewable energy is by far a better stepping stone. a good example is if we were to use hemp plants for textiles instead of wood pulp we would have to use 5 times less chemicals in processing the fibres and and end result is a much stronger fibre based product.

    this is the same thing ... instead of using oil which is mined out of the earths crust and de mineralises the planet ( which arguably is the worst thing for the planet ) we can manufacture a clean energy scource which can run the billions of existing cars and machinery with minimal conversion.

    In thailand you can purchase wood grain alcohol and run your car or moped on it and its sold by farmers. its a clean fuel and the machinery runs better on it.



    N

    For one the water would be cleaner coming out then before you put it in your car.

    Two you can recycle the water that comes out the tailpipe put it back into your car's fuel cell lol derp.

    Three putting a price on water would be hard to do when you have lakes ponds rivers not sure if you can use salt water i dont see why not.


    I would like to see oil plants, nuclear power get replaced by this. BP can suck a fat one.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    and thats why i say we should spend any food / plants we can feed on for fuel. But the very reason you said about the price tag is why we will never see this happening till we kick them off the top of humanity.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    ugh ... lord give me strength ...


    N

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