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Thread: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

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    Australia Avalon Member wolf_rt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
    Quote Posted by wolf_rt (here)
    while on the surface it appears to be a cleaner fuel, the maths doesn't seem to add up.
    From what i have read it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is contained in it. Energy that invariably comes from fossil fuels. And at the cost of soil depletion and increased grain prices.
    While cleaner air in the cities would be nice, in this case it would come at a large cost to the environment. There are better solutions.
    (unless you have the capacity to produce your own ethanol in which case it would be clearly better)
    a larger cost to the enviroment ? renewable energy scource costs the enviroment ? did you think about what you are saying before you said it ?
    what are the better solutions ? please , we need to know ? you should qualify your statements.
    Thank you
    N
    Can you post something showing why you consider ethanol renewable?

    As far as i know most ethanol that is used for fuel (at least in Australia/US) is made from commercially grown, GM corn. Farming in this way definitely causes soil depletion (loss of nutrients and bio-activity). which would seem to severely offset any small saving in the net cost to produce a unit of energy with ethanol vs oil.

    How is the ethanol used in Brasil made? If we can make ethanol from waste sources or something then i'm all for it, my only issue is with calling ethanol made from the commercial cropping of corn renewable.

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    Greece Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
    ugh ... lord give me strength ...


    N
    Well this is a good point to make ... but back to reality.

    You focus too much on the clean part and miss the actual energy benefits. As many have said before ... its been years that we have for example cars powered by water (creation of Hydrogen etc) but they just dont let the technology gain any ground before its bought and hidden.

    The hole recycle theories are a scam. We dont need to recycle or use "clean" energy sources ... we just need to use different types of resources than what we use now.

    In these forums there are hundreds technologies that can provide "clean" energy without effecting our food or our environment. Thorium reactors came to mind, E-CAT also etc etc ...

    The technologies exist and can become economical in a matter of years IF ... thats a huge IF ... they let them progress. I dont understand why you disagree on this ... but its your choice :-)

    They control Oil so ANYTHING that change the defacto leadership position of Oil is against their plans. Oil effects many different areas of our society ... from energy to food and clothing.

    As you said many Oil/plastic products can be covered by using hemp with huge ecological benefits ... but it will effect Oil so ... they are stopped. There is no best step to follow here ... they either let tech grow or they wont.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by wolf_rt (here)
    Quote Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
    Quote Posted by wolf_rt (here)
    while on the surface it appears to be a cleaner fuel, the maths doesn't seem to add up.
    From what i have read it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is contained in it. Energy that invariably comes from fossil fuels. And at the cost of soil depletion and increased grain prices.
    While cleaner air in the cities would be nice, in this case it would come at a large cost to the environment. There are better solutions.
    (unless you have the capacity to produce your own ethanol in which case it would be clearly better)
    a larger cost to the enviroment ? renewable energy scource costs the enviroment ? did you think about what you are saying before you said it ?
    what are the better solutions ? please , we need to know ? you should qualify your statements.
    Thank you
    N
    Can you post something showing why you consider ethanol renewable?

    As far as i know most ethanol that is used for fuel (at least in Australia/US) is made from commercially grown, GM corn. Farming in this way definitely causes soil depletion (loss of nutrients and bio-activity). which would seem to severely offset any small saving in the net cost to produce a unit of energy with ethanol vs oil.

    How is the ethanol used in Brasil made? If we can make ethanol from waste sources or something then i'm all for it, my only issue is with calling ethanol made from the commercial cropping of corn renewable.
    i did ... in my first post .. why did i post a video showing you this stuff and why did you not watch it ? its sugar cane actually which is the renewable scource of energy

    crops , like any crops do not degrade the earth , the earth is actually designed to grow stuff ( which is has been for millions of years in case you havent noticed )

    proper growth of crops and re toiling soil for growing crops is actually healthy for soil re generation. Burning crops is actually one of THE healthiest ways to re generate soil minerals. SO your arguments lack any research.

    I have provided all of the positive results and too fors this technology however you proceed without having read or watched them.

    I think either you are hired to derail this thread or you are ignorant. possibly mututally significant to your process.

    You can make ethanol from anything including waste products : 0 ) and its going to take a huge steak in our future and for that i am truly grateful.

    Naniu : 0 )

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Etherios (here)
    Quote Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
    ugh ... lord give me strength ...


    N
    Well this is a good point to make ... but back to reality.

    You focus too much on the clean part and miss the actual energy benefits. As many have said before ... its been years that we have for example cars powered by water (creation of Hydrogen etc) but they just dont let the technology gain any ground before its bought and hidden.

    The hole recycle theories are a scam. We dont need to recycle or use "clean" energy sources ... we just need to use different types of resources than what we use now.

    In these forums there are hundreds technologies that can provide "clean" energy without effecting our food or our environment. Thorium reactors came to mind, E-CAT also etc etc ...

    The technologies exist and can become economical in a matter of years IF ... thats a huge IF ... they let them progress. I dont understand why you disagree on this ... but its your choice :-)

    They control Oil so ANYTHING that change the defacto leadership position of Oil is against their plans. Oil effects many different areas of our society ... from energy to food and clothing.

    As you said many Oil/plastic products can be covered by using hemp with huge ecological benefits ... but it will effect Oil so ... they are stopped. There is no best step to follow here ... they either let tech grow or they wont.
    i think you have been reading someone elces posts and mistaking them for mine .. anyway back to the ethanol , hiccup !

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    Australia Avalon Member wolf_rt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Quote Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
    crops , like any crops do not degrade the earth
    It seems pretty obvious to me that monocropping is not natural, and degrades the earth. There is also the issue if the whole world swaps to ethanol, there will be a large percentage of farmland that will be tied up in producing fuel, the same farmland that is struggling to feed us now, and being reduced year by year from our poor farming practices.

    Unfortunately i can't watch the youtube video at the moment (slow net).
    Your other links talk about ethanol from corn, and while it is great that improvements to distillation procedures have increased the net energy yield above par, unless all the machinery that produces the ethanol is run on ethanol, there is minimal benefit to the environment that i can see. and it all comes at a LARGE cost to the soil... The farming practices used to grow corn for livestock/ethanol production most certainly damage the soil.

    A massive benefit to the environment could be obtained if we stopped feeding cows grain.

    Perhaps you can link some info on the sustainable agriculture practices used to produce that sugar cane you mentioned?

    If you have done the research you claim, please present your evidence of ethanol from crops as being renewable. I will be as delighted as you apparently are, if you can show me how this is actually sustainable.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    im still waiting for YOU to answer my questions ? where are they please ?

    i did ask first.

    N

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    Australia Avalon Member wolf_rt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    a larger cost to the enviroment ?
    I was under the impression that corn alcohol was not returning a net energy gain, i stand corrected. This does not address the cost of soil degradation, which clearly occurs in much commercial ethanol production

    renewable energy scource costs the enviroment ?
    i am challenging you to show me that this is indeed renewable and sustainable on mass, it comes down to the farming methods used.

    did you think about what you are saying before you said it ?
    yes.

    what are the better solutions ?
    compressed air from 'tromps' is one possibility, at least near waterways. Electricity from existing sustainable generation is another, although capitol cost and battery recycling are problematic.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    ok so maybe we are getting off on the wrong foot. You really need to watch the video as it shows the last 30 years of brazils history and sucessful conversion to Elthanol as a major fule scource and booster of their economy. the video states it supplies 10's of thousands of families with work where there was un employment.

    Sugar cane is grown for sugar , Potatoes are grown for food just like corn. If these crops are used for food instead of fuel does it degrade the soil ? because it dosent matter what you do with the crop once its grown. This is what i dont understand about your argument.

    How exactly does growing crops for fuel degrade the soil ? can you show me how as i do not understand your point and i respectfully wish to know.

    Cheers

    N

    N

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    Australia Avalon Member wolf_rt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Hopefully i will be able to watch the video tomorrow if my internet is working better.
    Sorry if my first post was a bit combative, Hopefully through conversation we can both reach a better understanding of ethanol as a fuel.

    Since you have shown there is a net gain in energy:
    It would be possible to run all the machinery used to produce/transport ethanol, on ethanol and still have a surplus.
    So all good there.

    My other concerns aren't about ethanol itself but rather the systems used to produce it.
    I DO believe that in small scale operations and properly managed larger operations that ethanol could be produced sustainably, it's just not now.

    1. Land use
    What's sustainable for brazil (are they self sufficient agriculturally?) might not be sustainable for everyone. If petrol use was completely replaced by alcohol what percentage of the world's cropland would be needed? What effect would this have on grain prices/3rd world?


    2. Monsanto/GM
    This may not be an issue for Brazil, but it is for much of the western world.
    ALL (afaik) the corn grow for ethanol is proprietary GM seed. You must sign a contract that FORCES you to use farming techniques that have been proven to destroy soil and reduce yields.


    3. Big-Ag
    Large scale farming of energy crops supports 'Big-Ag'. This form of agriculture clearly has a negative effect on soil health and nutrient content of crops.


    4. Job Creation
    Personally i view any attempt at 'job creation' as supporting the tragically flawed economic model we are lumbered with. There just isn't enough work that needs to be done! The amount of productive jobs has fallen to a fraction of all the 'work' being done.
    While it's no fault of ethanol, i fear much of the work created around this industry by big-ag and governments is 'make work'... ie, people to dig the oil, transport, farmers, fertilisers, more transport etc... we dig up a unit of energy and then turn it into a different unit of energy all the while 'producing' jobs.
    This is clearly inefficient, and hence bad for the environment.
    Basically, if everyone did 10 hours of productive work, that would produce the same amount of GDP, and everyone would have an extra 30 hours a week on there hands.
    This would require a massive change in society which scares the governments.
    Hence governments 'produce' jobs. Its a whole different subject, but 'jobs' are bad for the environment...


    5. Soil Degradation
    Whenever you plant many acres of one type of plant you have moved away from the natural model (permaculture) that provides abundant yield while improving the soil.
    the 'yield' that comes from any monocrop comes out of the soil and chemical (fossil) additions that are made to the soil.
    We are taxing out soils extremely heavily due to our desire for grain already. It is basically impossible to grow any type of grain in a commercial quantity inside a permaculture (sustainable) system.

    Giving grain to cows is probably the most stupid thing humanity has ever done, the environmental damage caused by this practice is incalculable. Cows digest about 30% of the grain, it's about the worst thing you could feed them.
    All this grain has to be grown in a 'Big-Ag monoculture' system that definitely does deplete soils.

    The connection with ethanol is that different parts of the grain can be used for both cattle feed and ethanol so on the surface it looks like a win.
    Nothing could be further from the truth. Feeding cattle grain is just SOOO bad that anything that encourages it has to be examined very closely.
    Its hard to find literature to support this but it can be found. people just don't consider the implications of feeding cows grain.
    http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...-livestock-eat

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    here is a good article on most of what you asked.

    http://sugarcane.org/sustainability/...-food-and-fuel

    obviously there are always draw backs to any imperfect technology but it looks like the good out weighs the bad in this instance.

    i would prefer as my first choice electromagnetic motor propulsion and electricity .. which is the cleanest to use but until the power structure of present energy production shifts , emerging tecnologies may be "over looked". as an already existing stepping stone Ethanol is a good way to enforce a shift.

    after that who knows what could happen.

    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    sugar cane certainly seems like a far superior crop to corn as far as environmental impact goes.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    here is some positive news

    it seems ethanol is making waves , lets support this so the oil dollar does nothave such a stronghold

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...ergy-security/

    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    A thread with only two participants... hum, you need a third one

    Quote How exactly does growing crops for fuel degrade the soil ? can you show me how as i do not understand your point and i respectfully wish to know.
    Because of the enourmous quantities needed to replace petroleum, many cultures that feed people would be/are converted into corn cultures for ethanol, because it simply pays better, for the moment. But still, the sheer numbers of plants needed to replace petroleum is astronomical. Therefore deforestation for growing corn, therefore replacement of cultures that feed human beings by corn for ethanol. When ethanol was introduced 20 years ago, the price of food went way up because fields were being converted for corn and the demand was higher than the offer on the previous years. Who suffered?? Not us, in developed societies we saw nothing, it is the third world societies that went starving a quite a bit more.

    My readings twenty years ago, don't ask me the source - but it could be found going 20 years back.

    As for burning the land to feed it, this may be true for minerals as long as they can penetrate the land. The burning methods were used in Central America quite a lot, and what happened is that tree/bush roots were burned with time as well, the land was not worked through with roots growing, it became as hard as stone, and nothing grow anymore, therefore more starvation yet. One have to really consider the type of land ones has before burning. (Burning was brought by the Spaniards there).

    My personal experience in El Salvador with campecinos.

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  19. Link to Post #34
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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    If we read the supplied article it will alay most of your fears of the soil etc hence why i supplied the article. Its a great read.

    One thing i need to point out is does anybody think about the Oil and Minerals being sucked out of the earth at a rate of 1 billion barrels a day ( or whatever the number is ) and our complete in ability to ever replace these mineral stocks ? At least with top soil we can re generate and tend to the soil by re mineralising it
    ( through burning which supplies ash to the ground ) we have acess to the soil and we can treat it to re generate it, Oil refineries ? has anybody ever tried to re mineralise the soil around them ? Nope !

    No access to the deep caverns tfor re mineralisation.. no access to re toil the mineral bases or soils or rocks that are displaced and sucked out then burned, THIS IS DESTROYING THE PLANETS LIFE BLOOD. THIS WILL ULTIMATELY DESTROY FOOD CROPS.

    The common misconception is that once you use a filed a few times that the soil becomes arid and if you were to abuse it , yes that would happen, but why would you abuse it ? There are wine growers and farmers that have been using the same patch of land for generations and they learn to re toil and mineralise soil with burning and manure restocking.

    This is something thats been done for millenia ..

    Theere is no concieveable argument for not using Ethanol.

    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    Gosh,just lot my post, when I push the post button, it got me a message: unaccessible page. I will rewrite tomorrow.

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    i hate it when that happens ...


    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    bumping around in time

    N

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    Default Re: Do NOT concentrate on the PAST, EFFECT THE FUTURE ! SUPPORT RENEWABLE ENERGY !

    interesting analysis of renewable energies at
    https://ourfiniteworld.com/2019/11/1...es-make-sense/

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