+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 72

Thread: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

  1. Link to Post #1
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    21,071
    Thanks
    71,873
    Thanked 265,963 times in 19,555 posts

    Default The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    -------

    Hi, All:

    This is a true story of an experience I had on a personal development training course about a dozen years ago, in the UK. Many of you reading this may know that this kind of thing used to be my profession.

    The client was a public institution, internationally very well-known, and my team and I had a mixed bag of employees, at all levels, in our care for six days. It was a pure residential personal development training program, and it took place in a little farmhouse in the Welsh hills, a very beautiful and peaceful place.

    Working with this organization on this program was always one of my favorite events every year. The employees were almost always pleasant, intelligent, enthusiastic, and extremely nice people to work with.

    But on this occasion, they had sent along a member of the security team (not in itself any problem: they were usually extremely nice people, too), and his name was Joe. Joe was as toxic as it was possible to get. He was negative, disruptive, destructive, snide, cynical, aggressive, and basically very nasty to everyone, all the time. He was like a caricature from some movie.

    There were three others in my training team, and they all wanted to send him home on the train immediately. No possible good could come of his being on the course. His manager back in London had told me about him, and was desperate for a solution. He was also a union rep, and was apparently as hostile and aggressive at work as he was in the Welsh countryside.

    However, something told me that he should stay. It was my program, and I over-ruled my three colleagues. "Wait", I told them.

    They were not happy with my decision. We worked in small teams, so I made sure I had Joe in my group where at least I could protect some of the others (and my staff, too) that way.

    Four days into the six, and there was absolutely no change. I was taking a huge risk, and I knew it: Joe was disrupting all the sessions, interrupting, laughing, sniping at the other course members who were trying to talk about their lives. It was not at all easy.

    Then, something extraordinary happened.

    We were on a mountain walk, and one of the girls sprained her ankle. We had to return to the farmhouse early.

    Without any bidding, Joe took her backpack, and with his arm round her shoulder, supported her all the way down the hill. I was rather amazed, and just let it all happen. Back at base, we strapped her ankle, and put the kettle on. Joe was very quiet for the rest of the day. I thanked him for his help, and so did the girl, who had been quite distressed.

    The following day, the fifth of the six, we started to see a change. Joe started to talk about his family and his childhood, which had been pretty rough. We all listened well, and thanked him for sharing his story with us.

    Joe seemed now to be changing by the minute, trusting us at last with some of his vulnerability. My colleagues were starting to give me funny looks. I again asked them to hang in there with me.

    On the sixth day, we were all due to pack up and depart at noon. The final session had us all sitting round in front of the farmhouse fire, sharing what we'd all learned or gained from the week. We gradually went round the circle, as the delegates shared their thoughts and feelings.

    And we were getting closer and closer to Joe's turn. I could sense the uneasiness. Was he going to ruin it all with a clever-clever comment?

    When Joe's turn arrived, everyone just looked at him, waiting. There was a tension in the room, and there was a very long silence. Finally, Joe took a deep breath, and said:

    "This has been the first time I ever felt I belonged to the human race."

    Then he began to cry.

    That set us all off. Everyone got up and hugged him. It was a like a religious revival. No-one could speak. Even now, I have tears in my eyes as I recall this story.

    In the minibus on the way to the train station, which I was driving, Joe got straight in the front and sat right next to me. Quietly, he said:

    "You saved my life. I would either have killed myself, or killed someone else."

    He paused. "You're a sound geezer."

    (Cockney: 'you're an okay person'. )

    I shook his hand, and told him he was a sound geezer, too. We both laughed.

    On Monday afternoon, his manager phoned me. "What happened?" He said. "Joe came right up to me this morning and said: 'Come on, let's sit down and talk. We have to work together.' What on earth did you do?"

    My reply to him was that Joe, of course, had done this all himself. He had taken advantage of an opportunity, the kind that presents itself to every one of us, every day. He was responsible for his own transformation, as we all are. And some of us take advantage of the chance, and some don't.

    This is what life is all about.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 13th September 2013 at 15:42.

  2. The Following 285 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    1inMany (13th September 2013), 4evrneo (13th September 2013), Abhaya (13th September 2013), Adi (17th September 2013), airaspect (22nd September 2013), ajyana (15th September 2013), Akasha (14th September 2013), Alan (13th September 2013), Alberto e Daniela (18th November 2014), alexandra (16th September 2013), amandapoet (21st September 2013), AmberButtermilk (20th November 2014), anandacate (14th August 2019), Andrew (13th September 2013), AnnOther (27th September 2013), Antagenet (13th September 2013), aranuk (14th September 2013), araucaria (13th September 2013), Arc (19th September 2013), AriG (22nd September 2013), Art (14th September 2013), astrid (14th September 2013), AuCo (20th September 2013), avid (13th September 2013), Azt (14th September 2013), Baby Steps (1st June 2017), bearcow (22nd November 2014), Becky (20th November 2014), bel (15th September 2013), Bhusunda (15th September 2013), Billy (14th September 2013), Blacklight43 (13th September 2013), bluestflame (16th November 2014), Bluewool (16th September 2013), Bob (19th September 2013), bodhii71 (14th September 2013), Bongo (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), camper (14th September 2013), Cara (14th August 2019), Carmen (13th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), catzone (2nd August 2016), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (20th September 2013), chocolate (23rd February 2014), christian (13th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Cognitive Dissident (14th September 2013), Constance (31st October 2015), Corncrake (13th September 2013), Craig (13th September 2013), Cristian (13th September 2013), crosby (14th September 2013), cursichella1 (19th September 2013), Curt (13th September 2013), dan33 (18th September 2013), danceblackcatdance (15th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), DebJoy (24th December 2016), DeDukshyn (14th September 2013), delfine (13th September 2013), Delight (13th September 2013), Dennis Leahy (13th September 2013), deridan (21st September 2013), dianna (13th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), doodah (15th September 2013), Durga ma (16th August 2019), earthadvocate (13th September 2013), Earthlink (14th August 2015), Eligos (16th September 2013), Elly (14th September 2013), enigma3 (23rd November 2016), ENIGMAggie (14th September 2013), ErtheVessel (14th August 2019), eva08 (14th September 2013), Ewan (7th April 2017), exponentialist (14th September 2013), fathobbit (5th February 2014), fifi (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), Freed Fox (13th September 2013), frodo13 (13th September 2013), GaelVictor (15th September 2013), gaiagirl (23rd September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), Gekko (13th September 2013), Gemeos (13th September 2013), Gemini (19th September 2013), ghostrider (14th September 2013), ginnyk (14th September 2013), giovonni (13th September 2013), GoingOn (11th August 2015), golden lady (19th September 2013), Gracy May (14th August 2019), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), grant (14th August 2015), Griff (13th September 2013), guayabal (17th September 2013), happyuk (14th September 2013), Harley (13th September 2013), HaulinBananas (13th September 2013), Hawkwind (16th September 2013), Hazelfern (14th September 2013), Heart2hearth (13th September 2013), heretogrow (16th September 2013), heyokah (13th September 2013), hohoemi (14th September 2013), Hym (31st October 2015), Inaiá (22nd September 2013), Infinite Merkaba (16th November 2014), Innocent Warrior (17th November 2014), Irishmammy (16th September 2013), Irishquad (22nd September 2013), Isserley (13th September 2013), Ivanhoe (14th September 2013), Izheheruvim (17th September 2013), Javier Socorro (10th September 2014), Jayke (13th September 2013), Jean-Luc (13th September 2013), Jean-Marie (13th September 2013), jiminii (19th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Joe Sustaire (16th November 2014), johnh (13th August 2015), Joseph McAree (13th September 2013), Journeyon (17th November 2014), jp11 (14th September 2013), Kalamos (13th September 2013), kanishk (13th September 2013), karamba (22nd September 2013), karelia (13th September 2013), Kathy (16th November 2014), kenaz (14th September 2013), kevlar (14th September 2013), Keyholder (15th August 2019), Ki's (13th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), Kristo (14th September 2013), Lancelot (13th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), Latti (13th September 2013), Lefty Dave (14th September 2013), Lifebringer (16th September 2013), Limor Wolf (13th September 2013), Linderlou (13th August 2015), lisalu (13th September 2013), LoneWolf76 (20th August 2017), M6* (5th October 2013), mab777 (13th September 2013), Magnus (22nd September 2013), mahalall (14th September 2013), Maia Gabrial (13th September 2013), Malerogro (14th November 2013), Marianne (13th September 2013), Marie (13th September 2013), MaroonLagoon (19th September 2013), Maunagarjana (28th June 2014), meat suit (13th September 2013), meeradas (13th September 2013), Midnight Rambler (23rd November 2014), Mike (12th August 2015), Mike Gorman (23rd September 2013), misfit312 (13th September 2013), morninglight69 (13th January 2015), MorningSong (13th September 2013), Mulder (28th September 2013), Muzz (13th September 2013), nancyb (21st September 2013), NancyV (17th November 2014), Nanoo Nanoo (22nd September 2013), naochan (8th November 2015), naste.de.lumina (22nd September 2013), Natalia (16th November 2014), ndroock1 (14th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Nine (16th November 2014), no questions (14th September 2013), nomadguy (14th September 2013), nonesuch (19th September 2013), noprophet (17th November 2014), northstar (18th September 2013), Observer1964 (16th November 2014), Ol' Roy (13th September 2013), Orph (13th September 2013), Pam (13th September 2013), panopticon (13th October 2013), panthyr (21st April 2015), Paradox22 (20th November 2014), Patient (15th August 2019), Paul (14th September 2013), Peace&Love (14th September 2013), penn (14th September 2013), Professor (17th September 2013), provolon (2nd October 2013), psydney (16th September 2013), pugwash84 (14th August 2015), QueenKat (16th September 2013), Rahkyt (15th September 2013), raregem (25th November 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Reirrac (15th September 2013), rezboom (13th September 2013), Ria (18th September 2013), Rich (13th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), Rollo (13th September 2013), ROMANWKT (13th September 2013), Ron Mauer Sr (14th September 2013), Rosco1 (17th September 2013), RunningDeer (13th September 2013), Rusalka (31st October 2015), RUSirius (14th September 2013), ruthy (13th September 2013), Sammy (31st October 2015), sandy (2nd November 2015), sarah22 (13th November 2015), Satori (14th August 2019), seko (13th September 2013), Selene (13th September 2013), selinam (13th September 2013), Selkie (11th August 2015), Sérénité (13th September 2013), shadowstalker (13th September 2013), Shaman (16th September 2013), Shannon (23rd August 2015), sheme (16th September 2013), Shikasta (13th September 2013), Sidney (13th September 2013), Sierra (13th September 2013), SieS (3rd October 2013), silvanelf (15th August 2019), silverfish (13th September 2013), sirdipswitch (13th September 2013), skippy (13th September 2013), sleepy (16th September 2013), snaden (20th September 2013), Snoweagle (22nd November 2015), soleil (13th September 2013), Sophocles (13th September 2013), Spiral of Light (13th September 2013), spiritguide (13th September 2013), Spirithorse (13th September 2013), spiritwind (14th September 2013), StandingWave (16th November 2014), Star Mariner (20th September 2013), Star Tsar (19th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), sunpaw (14th August 2015), superconsciousness (13th September 2013), Swan (13th September 2013), T Smith (13th August 2015), Tam (15th August 2019), Team Zen (13th September 2013), Tesla_WTC_Solution (13th September 2013), Tesseract (13th September 2013), tgn333 (16th September 2013), the_real_dave-id (22nd September 2013), Timreh (16th September 2013), Tommy (22nd September 2013), toothpick (15th September 2013), transitionalman (14th September 2013), TruthSeekerNotJudger (20th September 2013), twin fig (15th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Valerie Villars (14th August 2019), Vangelo (14th September 2013), Verdilac (18th December 2014), Violet (13th September 2013), Violet3 (26th September 2015), Vitalux (13th September 2013), voxpopuli (21st September 2013), watchZEITGEISTnow (14th September 2013), wegge (13th September 2013), william r sanford72 (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013), wolf_rt (15th September 2013), Woody (13th September 2013), Yoda (14th September 2013), YoYoYo (13th August 2015), Zelig (13th September 2013)

  3. Link to Post #2
    Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    30th June 2011
    Posts
    1,293
    Thanks
    11,091
    Thanked 6,892 times in 1,038 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    A great story that really puts a powerful lesson into perspective.

    Sometimes the heavy, difficult characters have an important role to play; the change they are capable of is powerful. And when that change comes it benefits everyone in significant ways.

    I always like to remind people it was Vader who saved the world, not Luke Skywalker.

  4. The Following 66 Users Say Thank You to Curt For This Post:

    161803398 (13th September 2013), 4evrneo (13th September 2013), ajyana (15th September 2013), amandapoet (21st September 2013), Arc (19th September 2013), Art (14th September 2013), avid (13th September 2013), bel (15th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Bongo (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (20th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), danceblackcatdance (15th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), DeDukshyn (14th September 2013), Dennis Leahy (13th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), eva08 (14th September 2013), exponentialist (14th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), gaiagirl (23rd September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), Gekko (13th September 2013), ghostrider (14th September 2013), Harley (13th September 2013), hohoemi (12th August 2015), Jean-Marie (13th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Joseph McAree (13th September 2013), jp11 (14th September 2013), kanishk (13th September 2013), karelia (13th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), M6* (5th October 2013), Marianne (13th September 2013), Mike Gorman (23rd September 2013), Muzz (13th September 2013), NancyV (17th November 2014), Neal (13th September 2013), nomadguy (14th September 2013), Ol' Roy (13th September 2013), QueenKat (16th September 2013), Rahkyt (15th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Rich (13th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), selinam (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Sidney (13th September 2013), Sierra (13th September 2013), soleil (14th September 2013), spiritwind (14th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), superconsciousness (13th September 2013), Tesla_WTC_Solution (13th September 2013), Tibouchine (14th September 2013), transitionalman (14th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Vangelo (14th September 2013), william r sanford72 (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  5. Link to Post #3
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    27th January 2011
    Age
    71
    Posts
    9,452
    Thanks
    64,848
    Thanked 29,401 times in 5,423 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    Wow. (sniff, honk.)

  6. The Following 39 Users Say Thank You to Sierra For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), amandapoet (21st September 2013), Antagenet (13th September 2013), Art (14th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Carmen (13th September 2013), Chanlo23 (20th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Curt (13th September 2013), DeDukshyn (14th September 2013), Dennis Leahy (13th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), eva08 (14th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), Gekko (13th September 2013), grant (14th August 2015), jjjones (14th September 2013), Joseph McAree (13th September 2013), jp11 (14th September 2013), karelia (13th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), M6* (5th October 2013), Marianne (13th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Rahkyt (15th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), selinam (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Sidney (13th September 2013), sirdipswitch (13th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), superconsciousness (13th September 2013), Tesla_WTC_Solution (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  7. Link to Post #4
    Costa Rica Avalon Member ulli's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th November 2010
    Posts
    13,595
    Thanks
    64,502
    Thanked 124,455 times in 13,274 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    You have a huge heart, Bill.
    This is not meant to flatter you, just some feedback so that you know
    that some of us here are aware of how patient and dedicated you really are.

  8. The Following 64 Users Say Thank You to ulli For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), amandapoet (21st September 2013), Antagenet (13th September 2013), aranuk (14th September 2013), araucaria (13th September 2013), Art (14th September 2013), Baby Steps (1st June 2017), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (20th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Constance (31st October 2015), Curt (13th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), DebJoy (24th December 2016), Dennis Leahy (13th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), earthadvocate (13th September 2013), eva08 (14th September 2013), fifi (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), Gekko (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), Heart2hearth (13th September 2013), hohoemi (12th August 2015), Ivanhoe (14th September 2013), Jean-Marie (13th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Joseph McAree (13th September 2013), jp11 (14th September 2013), kanishk (13th September 2013), karelia (13th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), Lefty Dave (14th September 2013), lisalu (13th September 2013), M6* (5th October 2013), mab777 (13th September 2013), Marianne (13th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Ol' Roy (13th September 2013), penn (14th September 2013), PurpleLama (13th September 2013), QueenKat (16th September 2013), Rahkyt (15th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roberta (25th October 2015), Roisin (13th September 2013), selinam (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Sidney (13th September 2013), sirdipswitch (13th September 2013), spiritguide (13th September 2013), Spirithorse (13th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), superconsciousness (13th September 2013), Tesla_WTC_Solution (13th September 2013), transitionalman (14th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  9. Link to Post #5
    United States Avalon Member ruthy's Avatar
    Join Date
    28th March 2013
    Location
    Chiapas, MX
    Posts
    70
    Thanks
    87
    Thanked 374 times in 63 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    I'm such a sap, watery eyes and all. That was a great story, thanks for sharing

  10. The Following 28 Users Say Thank You to ruthy For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), Antagenet (13th September 2013), Art (14th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Chanlo23 (20th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Curt (13th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), Gekko (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), jjjones (14th September 2013), Joseph McAree (13th September 2013), karelia (13th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), Marianne (13th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Sidney (13th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), Tesla_WTC_Solution (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  11. Link to Post #6
    United States Avalon Member 4evrneo's Avatar
    Join Date
    10th August 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    52
    Posts
    513
    Thanks
    11,167
    Thanked 3,360 times in 490 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    Thank you Bill for sharing this wonderful story, it really warmed my heart.

    I can relate to it in some way, all my friends and family do not understand why I keep giving my son a chance. He is a bit rough around the edges. My daughter is the most perplexed by my patience with him and she is to the point of intolerance but I keep telling her "someday, he is going to get it", and I will never stop believing it.

  12. The Following 48 Users Say Thank You to 4evrneo For This Post:

    amandapoet (21st September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), bodhii71 (14th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (20th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Curt (13th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), fifi (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), gaiagirl (23rd September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), Gekko (13th September 2013), hohoemi (12th August 2015), Inaiá (22nd September 2013), Jean-Luc (13th September 2013), Jean-Marie (13th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), kanishk (13th September 2013), karelia (13th September 2013), kenaz (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), lisalu (13th September 2013), M6* (5th October 2013), Marianne (13th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), nomadguy (14th September 2013), penn (14th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), Rosco1 (17th September 2013), ruthy (14th September 2013), Selene (13th September 2013), selinam (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Shannon (23rd August 2015), Sidney (13th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), superconsciousness (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Vangelo (14th September 2013), william r sanford72 (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  13. Link to Post #7
    Canada Avalon Member selinam's Avatar
    Join Date
    10th December 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    179
    Thanks
    6,302
    Thanked 751 times in 151 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    A great story and a great lesson. I had tears in my eyes too!

  14. The Following 21 Users Say Thank You to selinam For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Curt (13th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), jjjones (14th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), Marianne (13th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Sidney (13th September 2013), Sierra (13th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  15. Link to Post #8
    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th August 2010
    Location
    Winning The Galactic Lottery
    Posts
    11,379
    Thanks
    17,589
    Thanked 82,031 times in 10,210 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    This outcome is seemingly is tied directly to the 'accidental' experiment, where the group of baboons had their aggressive male dominance members killed off by eating the tainted meat. They had dominated a 'find' of tuberculous infected meat that had been disposed of. The aggressive males who dominated the most, all died, according to their dominance, or consumption levels of the meat.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/sc...ted=all&src=pm


    When the aggressive males died, so did the architecture and hierarchy of violence, the Machiavellian nightmare for that baboon clan..ended.

    The important part:

    When new males wandered in to join the now peaceful(in comparison) group, they quickly learned that violence and anger, etc, was not the way of this given clan and settled down into the group consensus.

    If too may violent and 'other raised/oriented' males came into the clan at the same time, ie too much new male blood from more violent groups, then this new status quo might change. But it had held for nearly 20 years.

    The lesson is that one must hang on, to persevere in the face of violence, dominance, and forced Machiavellian tendencies, in order to end them.

    Do not allow them to gather, as like seeks like.

    Do not respond in kind.

    Do not allow them to dominate, as their influence becomes the influence toward and in all. (disruption, ie, 'order out of chaos', their actual motto)

    Only the GROUP can change the violent and dominant toward a more peaceful path. The GROUP must understated that and never waver or bow in the face of the few.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

  16. The Following 48 Users Say Thank You to Carmody For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), amandapoet (21st September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Carmen (17th November 2014), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (20th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Corncrake (13th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), eva08 (14th September 2013), Ewan (7th April 2017), exponentialist (14th September 2013), fifi (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), gaiagirl (23rd September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), hohoemi (14th September 2013), Jayke (13th September 2013), Jean-Luc (13th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), jp11 (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), nomadguy (14th September 2013), northstar (18th September 2013), penn (14th September 2013), Rahkyt (15th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), rezboom (13th September 2013), Rich (13th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), ruthy (14th September 2013), selinam (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Sidney (13th September 2013), StandingWave (16th November 2014), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), superconsciousness (13th September 2013), sygh (16th September 2013), tgn333 (16th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Vangelo (14th September 2013), william r sanford72 (20th August 2015)

  17. Link to Post #9
    United States Avalon Member william r sanford72's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th February 2013
    Location
    rural southcentral iowa
    Age
    47
    Posts
    2,608
    Thanks
    59,767
    Thanked 9,811 times in 2,503 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    sat here for long time lost inside.couldnt gather my thoughts and emotions into a form of expression to post.thousand life images flash.the emoitions the moments blinding.all i can say is that this thread sits so very close to heart.my true self.william.
    TRUTH and BALANCE

  18. The Following 37 Users Say Thank You to william r sanford72 For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), bodhii71 (14th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (20th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Curt (13th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), gaiagirl (23rd September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), giovonni (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), Inaiá (22nd September 2013), Ivanhoe (14th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Joseph McAree (13th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), M6* (5th October 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), northstar (18th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), ruthy (14th September 2013), selinam (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Sidney (13th September 2013), soleil (14th September 2013), Star Tsar (19th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Vangelo (14th September 2013)

  19. Link to Post #10
    Serbia Avalon Member Beren's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th March 2010
    Location
    Belgrade,Serbia
    Posts
    1,297
    Thanks
    4,195
    Thanked 5,150 times in 905 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    This is a beautiful sorry Bill. It carries a greater meaning. Allowance to others to reignite their soul spark and shine.
    It needs love for this to happen.

    Allow others to be themselves without judgement. Releasing the good in them.

    Great story.
    Love, love and see what happens!

    http://www.fromforgottenworld.com

    :welcome:

  20. The Following 34 Users Say Thank You to Beren For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), Antagenet (13th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), bodhii71 (14th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Curt (13th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), fifi (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), gaiagirl (23rd September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GCS1103 (13th September 2013), giovonni (13th September 2013), golden wonder (27th September 2013), Inaiá (22nd September 2013), Ivanhoe (14th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), Marie (18th September 2013), mosquito (14th September 2013), nomadguy (14th September 2013), Orph (13th September 2013), penn (14th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), snaden (20th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  21. Link to Post #11
    Awaiting Email Confirmation
    Join Date
    16th September 2010
    Location
    In my quaint little corner of the world
    Age
    52
    Posts
    3,751
    Thanks
    14,630
    Thanked 15,589 times in 2,861 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    Toxic folks are a life lesson to those who may learn about what not to be and can teach extreme patients..
    If one is strong enough to understand such things or is opened to the idea of personal change, it can be of real use to all involved.

    But there is a limit to all things presented in one's life or as a group.
    As a toxic person can also influence on a negative way as well and bring down the individual or a group.

    Most toxic folks don't even realize they are toxic, and that they themselves need to change, but haven't found the (subconscious) trigger point to make that change.
    Some look in the mirror and are totally convinced that nothing is wrong with them. totally believing they are in the right.

    So basically what we should try to do for our selves is find out how toxic the person is and either work though it or try to have that person look in the mirror again and replay what has been said or done.

    There so many variable in this type of thing,that it is not even funny..
    I believe it's an individual issue in the end..ON ALL SIDES..

    In some cases Love and a certain amount of patients is the key.
    Last edited by shadowstalker; 13th September 2013 at 20:15.
    Namaste-Matte
    Jurjana, Jana, Jan, Ana :thumb:

    [URL="https://www.bitchute.com/channel/9zKUUFq4lmoY/"]My Bitchute[/URL]
    [URL="https://shadowstalker.bandcamp.com/releases"]My Music[/URL]
    [URL="http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/shadowstalker"]My Books[/URL]
    [URL="http://www.youtube.com/user/shadowstalker2011"]Project: Shadowstalker[/URL]


    Once you get past the fear of darkness, you can find the things hidden in the shadows..

  22. The Following 26 Users Say Thank You to shadowstalker For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), donk (13th September 2013), earthadvocate (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), GoingOn (11th August 2015), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), hohoemi (12th August 2015), Jean-Luc (13th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Orph (13th September 2013), raregem (11th August 2015), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), snaden (20th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  23. Link to Post #12
    Denmark Avalon Member
    Join Date
    17th June 2011
    Posts
    331
    Thanks
    563
    Thanked 1,193 times in 278 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    Very beautiful and touching story. Thanks Bill.

  24. The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to delfine For This Post:

    4evrneo (13th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Chanlo23 (24th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), jjjones (14th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  25. Link to Post #13
    Avalon Member Sidney's Avatar
    Join Date
    12th April 2010
    Location
    down the Rabbit Hole
    Posts
    5,040
    Thanks
    14,239
    Thanked 20,882 times in 4,415 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    Wow, I had not been prepared for a tearjerker. Thank you for sharing that heartwarming story. Lifes circumstances can and do create anger, towards the wrong people, or even all people. It seems, his experience that week, oiled his rusty emotional systems, so the negative energy could be released. What a gift.

  26. The Following 20 Users Say Thank You to Sidney For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (24th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), hohoemi (14th September 2013), Inaiá (22nd September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), shadowstalker (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  27. Link to Post #14
    Avalon Member avid's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th March 2010
    Location
    NW UK
    Posts
    2,221
    Thanks
    28,724
    Thanked 9,412 times in 1,990 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    This resonates with something that happened here lately - our hands were held out - Bill's especially - yet that poor chap 'left the room' despite our understanding of his 'rude awakening' and his shock of what is really happening. I bless him, and hope for him. We've all come through that 'denial' barrier. I live with a person in denial - but slowly he is now questioning. One can feel isolated at home - but here we can help each other. At the moment there is a mass-awakening due to the mess-up with the lies about Syria. We are growing - there are more and more looking to alternative news and views. Even if the grid goes down now - we have been enlightened.
    Thank you Bill for your very welcomed experience - as it seems we are all going through this now. :-)
    The love you withhold is the pain that you carry
    and er..
    "Chariots of the Globs" (apols to Fat Freddy's Cat)

  28. The Following 24 Users Say Thank You to avid For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (24th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), fifi (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), GaelVictor (15th September 2013), Gardener (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), Inaiá (22nd September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), lastlegs (13th September 2013), M6* (5th October 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), shadowstalker (13th September 2013), soleil (14th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  29. Link to Post #15
    UK Avalon Member Dorjezigzag's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th November 2011
    Posts
    584
    Thanks
    2,691
    Thanked 2,731 times in 543 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    His name wasn't Charles was it?

    But yeah its true sometimes a leopard can change his spots, and it is often someone who can listen and be compassionate like Bill that can do it.

    I think it is important that we don't confuse style with substance though, I have known a lot of hard men over the years and many of them have been pussy cats underneath it all.

    Sometimes we judge too early probably because of fear, which says more about us than them, and we miss that sometimes they may well be a rough diamond.

    Sometimes it is just about a clash of middle class and working class culture, which have been engineered to not understand each other

    You do not know what hell hole they have had to crawl from and the protection they have had to build up for themselves.
    Last edited by Dorjezigzag; 13th September 2013 at 18:55.
    For orpheus’s lute was strung with poets sinews- Shakespeare, two gentlemen of Verona

  30. The Following 22 Users Say Thank You to Dorjezigzag For This Post:

    Antagenet (13th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (24th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Dawn (14th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), Inaiá (22nd September 2013), Irishmammy (16th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), Lifebringer (16th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Sérénité (13th September 2013), Vangelo (15th September 2013), william r sanford72 (14th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  31. Link to Post #16
    Belgium Avalon Member Violet's Avatar
    Join Date
    18th August 2011
    Posts
    1,877
    Thanks
    5,274
    Thanked 9,152 times in 1,654 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    Sniffs up here too.

  32. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Violet For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), Chanlo23 (24th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013)

  33. Link to Post #17
    UK Avalon Member Sunny-side-up's Avatar
    Join Date
    4th April 2013
    Location
    Between here & there
    Age
    60
    Posts
    3,585
    Thanks
    38,816
    Thanked 16,182 times in 3,305 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    Judging a book by it's cover ( public actions) comes to mind but more like give a book some fresh paper and a chance to rewrite it's self.
    Somewhere in all of us is lil innocent mothers baby ha!
    I'm a simple easy going guy that is very upset/sad with the worlds hidden controllers!
    We need LEADERS who bat from the HEART!
    Rise up above them Dark evil doers, not within anger but with LOVE

  34. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Sunny-side-up For This Post:

    Camilo (14th September 2013), Chanlo23 (24th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), jjjones (14th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), shadowstalker (13th September 2013)

  35. Link to Post #18
    Guam Avalon Member
    Join Date
    26th December 2011
    Age
    76
    Posts
    93
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 390 times in 83 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    This explains a lot to me about how Bill runs this site. He spent a year with 9eagle9 practicing the very same technique. What is important to me is that he had the courage to do it. Giving this kind of being in the now a chance risks a lot. Look how much disturbance this rippled through this site. Then it takes even more courage to say time is up and pull the plug.

    I got tears in my eyes from reading the story and got more tears remembering the experience here of the dynamics of atticus and the 18, etc. I really understand now how much I learned and never would have considered if I had not watched all this play out. I really thank Bill for giving me the opportunity to expand my capacity for patience and understanding by following his examples. I read all the threads and never had much to say but always had much to think about. It is Bill's leadership for that kind of patient leadership that has really expanded my humanity. And while I am pleased that I said nothing for the most part, I acknowledge there were times I wanted to slap people upside the head. It was my trust in Bill's humanity which I have never doubted since I read his story where he questioned his own integrity about thinking of costs of risking his life to save another mountain climbing. That is really looking at the source of where you are coming from. So I practice patience--and for myself first.

  36. The Following 30 Users Say Thank You to lastlegs For This Post:

    Beren (14th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Billy (14th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), ceetee9 (16th September 2013), Chanlo23 (24th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), fifi (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), gaiagirl (23rd September 2013), ginnyk (14th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), Inaiá (22nd September 2013), Ivanhoe (14th September 2013), Jean-Luc (13th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), jp11 (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), Neal (13th September 2013), Orph (13th September 2013), Rahkyt (15th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), Roisin (13th September 2013), shadowstalker (13th September 2013), soleil (14th September 2013), Sunny-side-up (13th September 2013), ulli (13th September 2013), Wind (13th September 2013)

  37. Link to Post #19
    UK Avalon Member Sérénité's Avatar
    Join Date
    12th March 2013
    Age
    45
    Posts
    387
    Thanks
    1,540
    Thanked 2,535 times in 360 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    That's a lovely story, it really made my heart warm up after a real b!&ch of a day
    It reminds me of a quote I really love...sometimes the people who are hardest to love are the ones that need it the most.


  38. The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to Sérénité For This Post:

    Antagenet (13th September 2013), Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), Chanlo23 (24th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Ewan (7th April 2017), Flash (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), Ivanhoe (14th September 2013), jjjones (14th September 2013), Knowrainknowrainbows! (14th September 2013), M6* (5th October 2013), Orph (13th September 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), shadowstalker (13th September 2013), silverfish (14th September 2013)

  39. Link to Post #20
    Wales Avalon Member meat suit's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st January 2012
    Location
    on the coast
    Age
    53
    Posts
    726
    Thanks
    3,171
    Thanked 2,793 times in 648 posts

    Default Re: The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

    very good Bill,

    after all we are all tentacles of the same beast...

  40. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to meat suit For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (13th September 2013), Camilo (14th September 2013), Carmody (15th September 2013), Christine (13th September 2013), Dorjezigzag (13th September 2013), Flash (13th September 2013), grannyfranny100 (17th August 2015), jjjones (14th September 2013), M6* (5th October 2013), Redstar Kachina (14th September 2013), william r sanford72 (14th September 2013)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts