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Thread: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

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    Default World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    4 Dec 2013

    Billions of dollars are being invested by nations worldwide in manned, and unmanned drones.

    UAVs continue to be the most dynamic growth sector of the world aerospace industry this decade, according to Teal Group market analysts in Fairfax, Va.

    Teal Group staff predict UAV spending to more than double over the next decade-from current worldwide UAV expenditures of $5.2 billion annually to $11.6 billion-amounting to more than $89 billion in the next 10 years.

    The militaries are "demanding" more autonomous control, where the UAV is able to make decisions by itself and attack by itself. General Atomics leads in the brainy Predator drones for now, but groups world-wide are racing to come up with their own version of "smart" attack drones.

    from Military and Aerospace Industry news
    http://www.militaryaerospace.com/art...EDecember42013


    Above is Lockheed's design for a radio control console for a "man" controlled system.

    Closeup


    "The performance and affordability of tactical UAVs like our Shadow system make them an invaluable battlefield asset with a growing mission spectrum," says Steven Reid, senior vice president and general manager of AAI Unmanned Aircraft Systems.

    "Our private satellite network services can deliver the dedicated bandwidth needed to distribute tactical UAV video throughout the battlespace," says Paul Baca, vice president and general manager for ViaSat Global Mobile Broadband."

    Israel - The Hermes UGCS from Elbit Systems in Haifa, Israel, can control two concurrent missions when allocated two ground data terminals.

    Italy - "Piaggio Aero Industries in Italy tested complete ground handling control of the company's new Piaggio Aero P.1HH HammerHead multirole UAV and mission management system (MMS) based on Selex ES Sky- ISTAR technology. Selex ES provides the vehicle control and management system (VCMS), the remote-piloting ground control station (GCS), and the UAV datalink and communications systems "to ensure safe operations during all flight activities, throughout the whole chain of UAV command and control," says a representative. "

    Just look at these chairs for the General Atomics Mobile Mission control system. This system can be picked up and transported to any location for convenient arm chair search and destroy missions.


    --more to come

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution


    Elbit Systems, Haifa, Israel - Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) division

    They don't provide the cushy chairs that General Atomics provides the purchasers of their Predator Systems.

    BUT

    their website says: "The UGCS is built to enable the full control of any type of UAV. It provides full mission debriefing and simulation as well as in-flight mission editing and payload control. The UGCS system includes a ground data terminal, a remote video terminal and a flight line tester/loader. STANAG 4586 interoperability capability is optional."

    I suppose the ability to carry out its mission is more important than any utility comfort for the troops that have to work 10 hours a day behind the consoles.

    Their premier drone, HERMES 900 resembles the industry LEADER, the General Atomic unmanned drone


    "Based on the heritage of over 300,000 operational flight hours of the Hermes® 450 UAS, the Hermes® 900 employs identical building blocks using a larger air vehicle with nearly double the performance. Hermes® 900 incorporates flexible cutting edge multi-payload configurations employing standard and long-range EO/IR/Laser, SAR/GMTI & MPR, COMINT/DF, COMINT GSM, CoMMJAM, ELINT, EW, hyperspectral systems, large area scanning systems, wide area persistent surveillance and other payloads." (Impressive buzz-words, eh?)

    And are the Swiss neutral? er, sadly no... from Elbit's solicitation webpage -
    "Invitation to Participate in the Unmanned Aerial Vehicle System Program - Elbit Systems Ltd. is competing to develop and supply Armasuisse’s next Unmanned Air Vehicle System, and is seeking Swiss suppliers and manufacturers to participate in this challenging and rewarding program"

    Armasuisse’s explains that they need UAV's for reconnaissance purposes - http://www.defense-unmanned.com/arti...r-new-uav.html

    "Armasuisse is preparing to evaluate a new reconnaissance drone. This unmanned aircraft will carry no weapons.

    "Out of the eleven systems put forward by nine companies that were originally solicited, only Israel Aerospace Industries and Elbit Systems Ltd. remain in the running for the next phases.

    "Flight evaluation in Switzerland is expected in the second half of 2012, and selection of the winner in 2014.

    "The Swiss Air Force currently operates the Model 95 reconnaissance drone (ADS 95) which has been in service for over 12 years. This aircraft will reach the end of its service life in the coming years.

    "This is the reason why Armasuisse, which is responsible for the procurement of complex systems for the Swiss Army, received in mid-2011 a mandate from the General Staff to conduct the evaluation of a new UAV system and to prepare its acquisition with the Armaments Program 2015 budget.

    "Of the nine manufacturers originally solicited, two now remain in the running, based on the evaluation criteria and results. Armasuisse has invited both Israeli manufacturers, Israel Aerospace Industries LTD (IAI) and Elbit Systems (Elbit), to submit detailed tenders"

    "The Ministry of Defence expects that the new UAV system will be capable of deployment regardless of weather conditions, with increased flexibility, and that it will provide a greater range while being quieter. It must also reduce life-cycle costs.

    "The new system will be operated by the Swiss Air Force. The winner should be selected during the first half of 2014.
    The current ADS 95 drone system is operated by the army, but it also makes a valuable contribution to civil security, for example in assisting the border guard and police. "

    "We will watch you but we won't shoot at you.." seems like a very appropriate statement from the Swiss group buying Israeli attack drones modified for "peace-ful" uses..

    website for Armasuisse - http://www.ar.admin.ch/


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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    We of course know of the style and flare and precision Italian workmanship, technology and exquisite upholstery afforded in fine Italian luxury sports cars.. We can only imagine what they have in mind for the command and control system consoles that will fly these models..

    The Piaggio Aero P.1HH HammerHead is no exception of innovation, and elegant configuration. Both Form and Function are applied to make for a perfect surveillance platform capable of both endurance and speed when needed to get the hell out of the way when it has been spotted.


    It uses turbo-prop engines made by Canada - 2 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-66B 850 SHP (ISA, sea level) - those are impressive engines.

    "P.1HH HammerHead, is suited for a wide range of ISR, Defense and Security missions, and defines an unsurpassed mission role flexibility and sets a new frontier of CONcept of OPerationS (CONOPS) for Defense. The P.1HH HammerHead Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) is derived from the successful Piaggio Aero P.180 Avanti II business aviation aircraft, the fastest twin turboprop aircraft in the world with a proven, uneventful, service record of more than 20 years and 800.000 flight hours."

    From Defense Tech - another industry trade journal
    http://defensetech.org/2013/06/18/it...merhead-drone/


    "The international market continues to demand medium to large sized unmanned aircraft. It’s a market that U.S. and Israeli defense firms have dominated. The P1HH Hammerhead is a sign that growth is coming outside the two leaders. China and Russian defense companies are also looking to expand the number of larger scale drones they produce. The Hammerhead can climb to 35,000 feet in 20 minutes and operate with a 45,000 foot ceiling. The UAS is designed as a surveillance aircraft with an endurance of 16 hours carrying 500 pounds of payload and a range of up to 4,400 nautical miles."

    The Air Shows in Abu Dhabi and Dubai - my my, that stuff gets your juices flowing..

    Last edited by Bob; 25th October 2015 at 00:33.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Let not China be outdone by the west when it comes to drones, both for surveillance and hunter killer models.


    "It shows a similarity with the Northrop Grumman Global Hawk type of Unmanned Aircraft System (UAS) even if it seems much smaller than the High Altitude Long Endurange (HALE) kind of drone. This suggests it may be even smaller than a MALE (Medium Altitude Long Endurance) remotely piloted aircraft.

    "And above all, it shows an interesting joined wing similar to that of the Chengdu Soaring Dragon. We are describing the latest Chinese drone, spotted and filmed at an unknown location.

    "A few months after the first image of Lijian (“sharp sword”), China’s first weaponized stealth drone, appeared on the prolific Chinese Internet, a new prototype has emerged (even though it is not clear when this footage was filmed).

    "It’s worth noting that the drone has not yet been painted with the typical dark radar-absorbing paint, even if it features the cockpit-like mark of what could be the antennas’ upper bay (possibly made of a different material to avoid interference caused by RAM coating)."

    The inside of the Grumman Global Hawk looks like this:

    It would be interesting to get a peek under the wrapper of this current Chinese "soaring dragon"

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    China's drones aren't just peaceful surveillance drones.

    Sharp Sword, China's known attack killer drone is shown in this photo:

    Configured with stealth capabilities, this drone is jet powered, fast and able to launch weapons system similar to what is mounted on the Russian Mig-Skat shown below

    "Sharp Sword is reportedly a co-development of Hongdu and aerospace firm Shenyang. The single-engine drone seems to sport the tailless flying-wing shape shared by several U.S.-, European- and Russian-made prototypes and demonstrators dating back to the mid-1990s. The U.S. Navy’s tailless X-47B is a precursor of what should be the world’s first operational jet-powered armed drone.

    "But Sharp Sword seems to most closely match the Russian MiG Skat robot. Not coincidentally, China often borrows heavily from Russian warplane designs—and even illegally copies some planes acquired from Moscow."

    ref: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/1766036badc0

    The report summarizes as follows:

    "It’s hard to say how much success China has had with this softer side of killer drone technology. The Pentagon China report specifically cites “solid-state electronics and micro processors [and] guidance and control systems” as techs that Beijing finds it easier to buy or steal than to develop on its own."
    Last edited by Bob; 25th October 2015 at 00:34.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    But of course the US Navy feels just flying around spying on folks, isn't good enough - the drones of others MUST be able to be shot down - so air superiority (and of course sea superiority) is maintained. Between blinding satellites, and shooting down competitors drones (which could be armed significantly..) the logic is come up with a great attack sky killer pilotless aircraft robot.

    ref: http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capab...s/default.aspx


    The X47 UCAS (the designation means, "Unmanned Combat Air System") is a fighter drone.. Pretty impressive.. Launched from an aircraft carrier, it is to be easily deployable where and needed to keep "peace" in the world.


    Foundation for the Future
    "UCAS-D is designed to help the U.S. Navy explore the future of unmanned carrier aviation. A successful UCAS-D flight test program, including a series of successful carrier-based launches and recoveries, will help set the stage for the development of a more permanent, carrier-based fleet of unmanned aircraft."

    "Today's historic carrier landing and our operations aboard USS George H.W. Bush show, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that tailless unmanned aircraft can integrate seamlessly and operate safely from an aircraft carrier at sea," said Capt. Jaime Engdahl, Navy UCAS program manager. "Beyond X-47B, this moment in history was made possible by an extremely disciplined and dedicated government-industry team that took a brand new unmanned combat air system from initial concept to highly successful demonstration in one of the most demanding operating environments in the world."


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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    It gets better....

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/02/tech/i...nes-questions/

    Amazon is working a way to use drones to deliver packages.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    This is really significant, Bob!

    You know what sucks, right when my uncle was really starting to publicize his Scorpion (small manned jet by Textron AirLand),
    the gov't announced the "Son of Blackbird" nonsense.

    The huge price tag on these drones is mind boggling.
    IIRC the Global Hawk costs 250 mil apiece easily, factoring the R&D costs...

    They can plot millions of miles of terrain per week given enough drones.

    You know what I am thinking? No normal human pilot would want to fly endlessly for no other reason than spying/gathering endless intel.
    We all know that it's not possible to predict or anticipate every scenario. Yet our gov'ts are knowingly pouring trillions of dollars away buying these stupid drones,
    when the point of it all is doing a job that infringes on our constitutional rights and far too boring for the average human to handle.

    The job of policing humanity has become so tedious that a machine is expected to do it.

    This smacks of extreme waste to me.

    The Scorpion aircraft provides a human pilot with a job while at the same time reducing an enormous amount of financial waste.
    There may be a trend for "all-purpose" inventions in our modern world, but the truth is, they are still too expensive to be practical.

    Not to mention, there is an extreme need for drones that can retrieve trapped humans from earthquake and flood regions,
    drones that can perform rescue dives, and missions like that. You know, real humanitarian mission.
    De-mining Afghanistan and Cambodia might be a nice thing to do for tomorrow's kids, assuming we want them to stand on their own two feet and not on a prosthetic limb.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Bobd,
    Thank you for all this information.
    Same to others that have and will contribute.
    Drones have certainly been in the news, and I saw the amazon thing crop up just a day or two ago.
    This is something that is not as visible as it should be.
    The other side of this that I am interested in is the miniaturization of these things, and spying applications as well as assassination "tools".
    A few years ago a neighbor shared his thoughts about how much further along the tech must be, and speculated that we probably already have the capability to fly a very small craft into tight spaces and fire some sort of lethal rounds.
    At this point, I am thinking they might have the capability to calculate trajectories etc and frame people
    for the murders.
    We are on the verge of a very large explosion of tech here.

    jf
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    All seriousness tho.. it is happening and will only get more intense..

    BUT until then.. the issues of domestic spying worldwide can be happening sooner than we expect


    And the uN of course has the protection and best interests of everyone in mind flying their own drone
    Last edited by Bob; 5th December 2013 at 01:07.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    "What's that humming outside?"

    Maybe a local surveillance drone.

    Congress has told the FAA that the agency must allow civilian and military drones to fly in civilian airspace by September 2015. This spring, the FAA is set to take a first step by proposing rules that would allow limited commercial use of small drones for the first time.





    A good paper on drones is available here: http://www.priv.gc.ca/information/re...s_201303_e.asp - this goes over the use of DRONES in CANADA.
    from the paper,

    "Currently in Canada, domestic UAV operations are extremely limited because they are subject to licensing approvals and safety parameters set by Transport Canada (see Part III of this paper). This limiting factor, however, “is not technological, but regulatory.”

    " While the use of drones in Canada is still fairly limited by these regulatory and licensing parameters, Transport Canada has indicated on its website that UAVs “operate in diverse environments and in high risk roles, including but not limited to: atmospheric research (including weather and atmospheric gas sampling), scientific research, oceanographic research, geophysical research, mineral exploration, imaging spectrometry, telecommunications relay platforms, police surveillance, border patrol and reconnaissance, survey and inspection of remote power lines and pipelines, traffic and accident surveillance, emergency and disaster monitoring, cartography and mapping, search and rescue, agricultural spraying, aerial photography, promotion and advertising, weather reconnaissance, flight research, and fire fighting monitoring and management.”
    Last edited by Bob; 25th October 2015 at 00:37.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Quote Posted by Milneman (here)
    It gets better....

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/02/tech/i...nes-questions/

    Amazon is working a way to use drones to deliver packages.


    Conditioning, acceptance?

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Twenty years ago my sister and her husband went for a walk about 4 am one day. While walking they saw a small flying craft like a model airplane. It hovered over them and beamed them with a blue light. Maybe drones have been around a long time.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    Bobd,
    Thank you for all this information.
    Same to others that have and will contribute.
    Drones have certainly been in the news, and I saw the amazon thing crop up just a day or two ago.
    This is something that is not as visible as it should be.
    The other side of this that I am interested in is the miniaturization of these things, and spying applications as well as assassination "tools".
    A few years ago a neighbor shared his thoughts about how much further along the tech must be, and speculated that we probably already have the capability to fly a very small craft into tight spaces and fire some sort of lethal rounds.
    At this point, I am thinking they might have the capability to calculate trajectories etc and frame people
    for the murders.
    We are on the verge of a very large explosion of tech here.

    jf
    Hi John

    as you mentioned hit drones, advanced cloaking and all that... here is an article from US-News about something like that:

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...why-not-droneshttp://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...why-not-drones

    "Could law enforcement ever use a drone to kill an American? The answer to that question was the basis for Kentucky Republican Sen. Rand Paul's filibuster of the confirmation of CIA Director John Brennan earlier this week. Police use deadly force to kill Americans if they feel they are threatened, but it's unclear if they could use a drone instead of, say, a sniper rifle to take out a hostage-taker if they felt it was the safest way to do so.

    "Paul's filibuster was essentially a response to Attorney General Eric Holder's statement that, under extreme circumstances, a drone could be used to target people in the United States. Holder said it is "possible" for President Obama to "authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States."

    Are the police authorized to use deadly force by "drone" ?

    "According to the 1985 Supreme Court case Tennessee v. Garner, police may not use deadly force "unless … the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others." But that decision didn't establish what weapons law enforcement can use to carry that out, according to Mark Lomax, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association."

    These new and newer drones can become weapons besides surveillance devices if equipped with that capability.

    http://www.avinc.com/uas/small_uas/switchblade/ - the SwitchBlade DRONE system is equipped with an explosive, it is small, like a model aircraft as innocent in appearance.

    Although AV does not publicly like to talk about that capability, Times of India pointed it out pretty clearly..

    From AV


    "This miniature, remotely-piloted or autonomous platform can either glide or propel itself via quiet electric propulsion, providing real-time GPS coordinates and video for information gathering, targeting, or feature/object recognition. The vehicle’s small size and quiet motor make it difficult to detect, recognize and track even at very close range. The Switchblade is fully scalable and can be launched from a variety of air and ground platforms.

    "Switchblade is operated from AeroVironment’s battle proven ground control system (GCS) with a communications range of greater than 10 km."

    From Times India - http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...ribal-badlands

    "The 'switchblade' will join the US army's arsenal after a $4.9 million deal was signed with the manufacturer Aerovironment in June, the Defence News reported. But, the US army was tightlipped about its exact induction schedule. The drones are touted as a weapon which only hits the targets and can avoid collateral damage.

    "The California-based firm said the drone weighing just 2kg is powered by a small electric motor and can receive signals from overhead in realtime, allowing soldiers to identify an enemy, the paper quoted a company statement as saying.

    "After the targets are identified , using the live video feed, the operator locks its trajectory onto the target and the drone then flies into the target, detonating a small explosive."

    "Miniaturized "Kamikaze" drones, launched by soldiers in the battlefield itself, labelled 'switchblade' these mini drones are small enough to fit into a soldier's backpack and hover quietly in the sky before diving to slam into a human target with precision."

    ouch - notice for this system all it needs is a simple notebook PC with some advanced software..

    Last edited by Bob; 25th October 2015 at 00:40.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Interesting Bobd, I didn't see much discussion about how it would strike.
    I have wondered about kickback etc, and if this would prevent them from using bullets etc.

    jf
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    Interesting Bobd, I didn't see much discussion about how it would strike.
    I have wondered about kickback etc, and if this would prevent them from using bullets etc.

    jf
    I am aware of "miniaturized smart munitions", basically very small rocket-like propelled ammo, that would not have any kickback.. consider miniature rocket launcher. A round the size of a 50 calibre projectile with a simple guidance system, and explosive payload. That no doubt should be explored in another thread I think to do it justice. i.e. what payload on the drone, what weapon on the drone, what intended use(s)..

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Quote Posted by Bobd (here)
    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    Interesting Bobd, I didn't see much discussion about how it would strike.
    I have wondered about kickback etc, and if this would prevent them from using bullets etc.

    jf
    I am aware of "miniaturized smart munitions", basically very small rocket-like propelled ammo, that would not have any kickback.. consider miniature rocket launcher. A round the size of a 50 calibre projectile with a simple guidance system, and explosive payload. That no doubt should be explored in another thread I think to do it justice. i.e. what payload on the drone, what weapon on the drone, what intended use(s)..
    Well that should prove both interesting and really creepy at the same time!

    jf
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Quote Posted by MargueriteBee (here)
    Twenty years ago my sister and her husband went for a walk about 4 am one day. While walking they saw a small flying craft like a model airplane. It hovered over them and beamed them with a blue light. Maybe drones have been around a long time.

    Hard telling MargueriteBee, as you can see above, there are blue light lit drones, but it could possibly have been a high flying police helicopter searchlight on, with the wind just right that the sound wasn't heard.. or one of those 'other' things..


    or

    Last edited by Bob; 25th October 2015 at 00:42.

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    Quote Posted by Tesla_WTC_Solution (here)
    This is really significant, Bob!

    You know what sucks, right when my uncle was really starting to publicize his Scorpion (small manned jet by Textron AirLand),
    the gov't announced the "Son of Blackbird" nonsense.

    The huge price tag on these drones is mind boggling.
    IIRC the Global Hawk costs 250 mil apiece easily, factoring the R&D costs...

    They can plot millions of miles of terrain per week given enough drones.

    You know what I am thinking? No normal human pilot would want to fly endlessly for no other reason than spying/gathering endless intel.
    We all know that it's not possible to predict or anticipate every scenario. Yet our gov'ts are knowingly pouring trillions of dollars away buying these stupid drones,
    when the point of it all is doing a job that infringes on our constitutional rights and far too boring for the average human to handle.

    The job of policing humanity has become so tedious that a machine is expected to do it.

    This smacks of extreme waste to me.

    The Scorpion aircraft provides a human pilot with a job while at the same time reducing an enormous amount of financial waste.
    There may be a trend for "all-purpose" inventions in our modern world, but the truth is, they are still too expensive to be practical.

    Not to mention, there is an extreme need for drones that can retrieve trapped humans from earthquake and flood regions,
    drones that can perform rescue dives, and missions like that. You know, real humanitarian mission.
    De-mining Afghanistan and Cambodia might be a nice thing to do for tomorrow's kids, assuming we want them to stand on their own two feet and not on a prosthetic limb.
    Scorpion light attack Jet
    "Rather than enlist engineers at Cessna or Textron's other aviation unit, Bell Helicopter, to lead the program, the company has instead formed a joint venture with a small startup called AirLand Enterprises, created by former defense officials including retired Air Force Secretary F. Whitten Peters."

    A manned small jet with operating costs that are lower than the bigger jets..

    "Described as a "versatile Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR)/Strike aircraft platform," the Scorpion will cost less to buy and operate than other military airplanes and drones currently used for border patrol, narcotics intervention and spy missions. Textron is reportedly targeting an operating cost of around $3,000 an hour versus nearly 10 times that much for some platforms in use now. The Scorpion is a twin-engine jet with a straight wing and tandem seating. The engines are reportedly Honeywell TFE731s and the avionics will come from Cobham. Standard empty weight would be 11,800 pounds and max takeoff weight 21,250 pounds. The jet would have a top speed of 450 knots and a ceiling of 45,000 feet. "

    Great specs for a manned aircraft.
    ref: http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/je...t-nobody-asked

    Possibly tho, some of the points about drones is they fly in areas where the likelihood of being shot down is pretty great.. And it's possible that a pilot on site with the plane may have a conscience and decide not to pull the trigger.. but then again some drone pilots have said NO too to shooting where collateral damage may happen.. Drones that are prop driven like to go to slow flight, and loiter at high altitude, just hanging around snooping.. A Jet currently is kinda noisy, mostly to get in fast and get out fast.. if it were a stealth configured jet now, that would be something..

    There is some information on the drone pilots here: http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-...?currentPage=2 I started with page 2, but one can move back and forth in the article..

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    Default Re: World says MORE DRONES are the solution

    the true age of SKYnet begins

    I don't look forward to the treading on of the skulls against a blood red night time sky either.

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