Suicide of the soul

[greybeard]

Can "God" be killed off?
This following thought is not quite true but may be helpful.
In order to annihilate some thing you must first find it.
When the Self is looked for it is found to be love and you fall in love with it--that replaces fear and misery.
The whole purpose of the Buddha after enlightenment was to eliminate human misery.
Only that which is eternal is True everything else is passing.

I too have wished for total end to it all---life was unbearable--I could find nothing to live for in my life--least of all myself.
Then AA happened to me and recovery from misery began.
One eminent psychiatrist said that "If everyone was to follow the twelve steps of AA I would be out of a job"
One of the clichés of AA says "Let go, let God"

If help is asked for sincerely by anyone then it will come--you just have to be open to it.
When anyone has hit rock bottom and enough is enough-- then the choice is suicide or enough humility to say "I have done my best or worst and failed miserably, please help me" You don't even have to believe in God--He believes in you, for He is you.

Chris

[Frederick Jackson]

FORTY TIMES I WEPT

Forty times I called your name and wept
Because your name is beauteous.

Was it you or an army of the righteous
I pointed to across the Ganges plain?

Your chords instructed me to dance.
I am Shiva, but I have only two hands.

I am a unicorn. My horn
Is a bridge to you across the sands.

[markpierre]

Posted by SamwiseTheBrave (here)

Posted by markpierre (here)
No you can't. You can wonder off in any direction and get lost in preoccupation, but you can't annihilate yourself. Sorry.

But it's an interesting idea. I can think of times that might have had a certain appeal.

But how can you say this with such certainty? Unless you are a guru on the laws of physics or know how the physics alters our existence in each density, then how could you possibly know? The concept of oneness is very perplexing and beautiful. If we are already all one with the universe, isn't the disintegration of the soul just a simple meshing of energies and dispersion of our consciousness?

It's not physics. You can argue that, but I won't argue back. Physics is a need to understand and explain things. Your Soul already knows that stuff.
Yes I am a sort of a guru on certain issues. I don't use that term, so I'd rather not have it thrown back at me.
The concept of 'oneness' is meaningless as a concept, although it is a bit of fun.
Your looming experience of 'oneness' will be a shock to you. A pleasant one though.

[greybeard]

According to the enlightened sages there is only one soul and you are That.
I am That I am.
Not possible to kill That.

Chris

Ps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-...m#Twelve_Steps

[skippy]

Posted by greybeard (here)
If help is asked for sincerely by anyone then it will come--you just have to be open to it.
When anyone has hit rock bottom and enough is enough-- then the choice is suicide or enough humility to say "I have done my best or worst and failed miserably, please help me" You don't even have to believe in God--He believes in you, for He is you.

Thanks Chris. Nothing to add, except that, at one stage, a leap of faith is required to embrace that which is and always have been there. "Ask, and it will be given.." (Matthew 7:7), but not without suspecting, expecting and recognizing that it's there. It takes two to tango.

[MargueriteBee]

I have heard that after leaving the body one can choose to meld back into source. But I really have no idea.

[Tony]

If soul means absolute essence, then that which 'is' has always been, was never born and never dies.
If soul mean self identity - ego, then the very recognition of this absolute essence, is death for this self identity - ego.

Enlightenment is death of all impermanent things, and the awakening to that which is constant reality.



Tony

[Milneman]

Posted by skippy (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
If help is asked for sincerely by anyone then it will come--you just have to be open to it.
When anyone has hit rock bottom and enough is enough-- then the choice is suicide or enough humility to say "I have done my best or worst and failed miserably, please help me" You don't even have to believe in God--He believes in you, for He is you.

Thanks Chris. Nothing to add, only this perhaps: to suspect, expect and recognize that it's there. At one stage, a leap of faith is required to embrace that which is and always have been there. Freely available for all, nobody excluded. "Ask, and it will be given.." -- Matthew 7:7

Skippy I'm smelling Soren Kierkegaard in there. And actually Unicorn? That's probably some good stuff to be reading right now.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Unicorn (here)
I wonder if there can be something like a spiritual suicide. There is the physical suicide, but that doesn't solve anything, as it doesn't break the chain of incarnations, veil and suffering. But I wish there could be a spiritual suicide. The absolute end. No more incarnations, no more suffering, no more spiritual wars. Nothing. But I am afraid it's impossible. Not even that shameful way out for us.

I am sorry. Those are my sad thoughts.

I've quoted this already (Tes is gonna giggle again)...I think it might jive with what you're saying Uni.

“To sell your soul is the easiest thing in the world. That's what everybody does every hour of his life. If I asked you to keep your soul - would you understand why that's much harder?” -Ayn Rand, "The Fountainhead"

[Pilgrim]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Can "God" be killed off?
This following thought is not quite true but may be helpful.
In order to annihilate some thing you must first find it.
When the Self is looked for it is found to be love and you fall in love with it--that replaces fear and misery.
The whole purpose of the Buddha after enlightenment was to eliminate human misery.
Only that which is eternal is True everything else is passing.

I too have wished for total end to it all---life was unbearable--I could find nothing to live for in my life--least of all myself.
Then AA happened to me and recovery from misery began.
One eminent psychiatrist said that "If everyone was to follow the twelve steps of AA I would be out of a job"
One of the clichés of AA says "Let go, let God"

If help is asked for sincerely by anyone then it will come--you just have to be open to it.
When anyone has hit rock bottom and enough is enough-- then the choice is suicide or enough humility to say "I have done my best or worst and failed miserably, please help me" You don't even have to believe in God--He believes in you, for He is you.

Chris

Dear graybeard what is AA abreviation standing for (for us not native ENG speakers? sorry didn´t grasp that...) Thank you for an explanation... :-)

Pilgrim

[Swan]

Hello Pilgrim,

AA = anonymous alcoholics

[Unicorn]

I know these are just subjective impressions, but I don't think I had the choice to never come back. Therefore, most likely I’ll keep on coming.

So, if we don’t have a say in that, where is our soul’s sovereignty? Are we spiritual slaves?

No-one has answered when we’ve cried out for help. We are stranded in an enclosure surrounded by darkness and ignorance. And that’s all for our good?

Karma: the equalizer. Does it justify the birth lottery? I can only think about this as a bad joke. Where is compassion in the system?

The veil: is it at all necessary? Aren’t we confronted with the same testing situations during our present life, and we do learn from them, even better because we can remember? Isn’t it easier to advance in fuller consciousness?

I wonder if there are other reigns out there where souls can choose life and death as a smooth and conscious transition to a higher experience. With the treasure of their full knowledge and experience.


Sorry if I sound rough and crude. I am not a unicorn any more. I am just worn-out and impotent, as I’ve lost faith.

Thanks for your thoughts and support. Your wonderful souls here at Avalon. Courage in your journey.

[Tony]

@ Unicorn


It depends how you define "soul" - you could mean your unconscious attitudes, or you could mean your pure essence.
Pure essence cannot be touched, but we have smothered it with a self image. That is our prison. "We hold on to me and my ideas."

The key is clarity - the recognition of the prison.

We keep ourselves in prison.
We have the key.

This is not a quick solution. There is a lot of retraining and undoing to be done.
Meditation is the practice of just letting go and clearing recognising our true nature.
Excessive mental activity merely stirs up the med and creates more suffering.

Our problem is that we just do not recognise how simple this process is.

Of course, different traditions have different ways to describe this: it is logical, but sometimes we need a little faith or trust just to let go of our fixated ideas.

Tony

[Tony]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
@ Unicorn


It depends how you define "soul" - you could mean your unconscious attitudes, or you could mean your pure essence.
Pure essence cannot be touched, but we have smothered it with a self image. That is our prison. "We hold on to me and my ideas."

The key is clarity - the recognition of the prison.

We keep ourselves in prison.
We have the key.

This is not a quick solution. There is a lot of retraining and undoing to be done.
Meditation is the practice of just letting go and clearing recognising our true nature.
Excessive mental activity merely stirs up the med and creates more suffering.

Our problem is that we just do not recognise how simple this process is.

Of course, different traditions have different ways to describe this: it is logical, but sometimes we need a little faith or trust just to let go of our fixated ideas.

Tony

PS
Being worn out, frustrated and losing faith is wonderful. The illusion is breaking down.

For years, I was depressed and angry until I realised that the nature of that depression and anger was clarity no longer being able to fit into the limited existence in the pseudo-reality of those around me.

[araucaria]

Posted by Unicorn (here)
I know these are just subjective impressions, but I don't think I had the choice to never come back. Therefore, most likely I’ll keep on coming.
(...)
Sorry if I sound rough and crude. I am not a unicorn any more. I am just worn-out and impotent, as I’ve lost faith.

Thanks for your thoughts and support. Your wonderful souls here at Avalon. Courage in your journey.

You’ve lost faith in your ideas. So your ideas are somehow not fit for purpose.

So, if we don’t have a say in that, where is our soul’s sovereignty? Are we spiritual slaves?

No, you are here to choose. If I asked you to choose between good and bad, you would choose good as anyone would. So the choice has to be a little more complicated. It is always a choice between this or that. You have to work out what this and that are. Ultimately the choice is between handing over your right to choose to source itself, or selling it to some impostor. Spiritual freedom means reaching the stage of no longer needing to choose all the time; when you have become that choice and become out of reach. Negative entities out of reach of source only exist as illusions because ‘out of reach of source’ is an invalid concept; anything part of source can only play with that illusion, so choice is ultimately about reaching acceptance of the illusory nature of choice.

No-one has answered when we’ve cried out for help. We are stranded in an enclosure surrounded by darkness and ignorance. And that’s all for our good?

I have a book of Sudoku puzzles with the solutions in the back. I sometimes refer to them to check if I’m right; it is always possible to ‘cry out for help’ before even properly trying, but what would be the point? I’m not suggesting you are not trying btw, simply that in a learning situation, a kind teacher would not give you the answer on a plate, maybe some subtle hint that you are missing. Darkness: let your eye grow accustomed, there will be something to see; ignorance: let your mind grow accustomed, there will be something to understand.The answer is not important per se and in any case will just lead to another question. What is important is the process of inquiry/growth. The above-mentioned choice is about accepting or refusing that process.

Karma: the equalizer. Does it justify the birth lottery? I can only think about this as a bad joke. Where is compassion in the system?

Fair enough, karma may well be a bad joke. I tend to agree with that. Stick to the compassion then. Compassion offsets negative karma, if such a thing exists. It also attracts compassion. Compassion wins every time. It is help that doesn’t need crying out for.

The veil: is it at all necessary? Aren’t we confronted with the same testing situations during our present life, and we do learn from them, even better because we can remember? Isn’t it easier to advance in fuller consciousness?

The veil: see above. Advancing in fuller consciousness: I gather it is very much slower. You can always ride up the mountain in bottom gear, but you seem to have decided at some point that you can manage in a higher gear. This means that you get your head down in the handlebars and the view is not so good. You may have come to a bump in the road where you need to drop down a gear or two for a while, and take stock, to advance in fuller consciousness. Just remember, you are setting your own pace, it is not a treadmill.

I wonder if there are other reigns out there where souls can choose life and death as a smooth and conscious transition to a higher experience. With the treasure of their full knowledge and experience.

Sure, why not? But you can either accept that you are ‘in here’, i.e. you have chosen to do something different; or you can work towards abolishing the boundary between ‘out there’ and ‘in here’. Or both.

[Agape]

Posted by Unicorn (here)
I know these are just subjective impressions, but I don't think I had the choice to never come back. Therefore, most likely I’ll keep on coming.

So, if we don’t have a say in that, where is our soul’s sovereignty? Are we spiritual slaves?

Even if 'you' are gone , 'your information' remains .. remember self is the ultimate illusion. The greater reality is self-less .. If that's what you're asking about it is what happens .
That's why we say to people when they die ( so to say , mostly it's the body that dies ) : rest in Peace .

When your soul gets old .. it turns tired .. all it wants is rest . Lay down the struggle .. efforts .

I think it's what Buddha actually meant when he said 'Only Nirvana is Peace' . There are 4 noble truth he 'discovered' about human life and all are quite fitting.

1. Existence is Suffering . That's why it is so tiring because no matter who embodied or disembodied being you are , there is always pain.

2. The Causes of Suffering .. are that , causes and consequences, the endless physical laws ruling the time-space and all who abide within and getting through and up to other time-spaces demands super-human struggle as well .

3. Path out .. through recognising the causes .. what causes you to experience pain is more like a dissonant emotion . More you ignore the truth, more you get angry, more you try to pull out and protest more it pains. That's my experience , guess many would say the same .
Sometimes, dissolving the very immediate condition actually helps to get better overview . But working this out totally requires being real smart .. because ...the point about

4. Only Nirvana is Peace. It was so observed by Buddha Shakyamuni that there is no ultimate peace in any sort of worldly existence or status, not in any divine status or in formless existence ..

I think he had to feel a little bit like you , or me , and get out of here .

He did not want to reach heavens and enjoy damsels or play with super-powers . He could feel for everyone in this time-wheel is really paining, and wanted to help those who are suffering the most .

Now ..nir-vana actually means .. ''blown out''. Something like 'evaporating' from where you are now. It's a very beautiful state of existence .. merging with the absolute selfless existence around you .. giving up on the 'grip' that holds so tight here .

Embracing the endless vast space ..ultimate peace.. the final sacrifice of this little self and never come back.

Not as you'd remember it anyway but lets say, the Universe will not forget you ... all you did was important for something, someone, all of us together ..
and it stays recorded in the quantum information field that forms galaxies, stars, planets, living beings.. almost forever ..

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dRjSi9ELD9I

and if you agree to stay with us till then .. wishing you Peace

[deridan]

reiterating what I found concordant to myself.
silly idea, but then it is human nature to reach with silly ideas (possibly shows the collective has been on this plane not so long, curiosity is not far in reaching for things).
..yeah, how to destroy it, ..(gbif you can't find it. Perhaps in the dimension with which we could closestly approach spirit, now, it is like a record keeper, -of minimum soul-level.
I don't think people can merely merge into the ONENESS from will. (gurus and victims always play such games)

I think one can inhibit or facilitate the path of spirit. as an unaware human, or one half aware - and still riding the unpredictable tides of self,
-that it, people are either working of karma, or adding to it with new sins from the predisposition---lets not make to-many mistakes, for it takes long to awaken to self, and then realize what forces are at hand

I like the idea of pet and human integrated heavens. if there is such a thing, one can expect intermingled communions/communications.
besides, that would make good practice on how we treat our first aliens.
(in one far flung part of my imagination, I imagined humans as mayhaps pets in another world, would the pets then be the talkers or the ones with dexterity (hands) in that plane. {would the ideal image, i.e. the ideal dog take the downloads from the returning sentient, and perhaps sub-sentient-elemental-creations when they return as through death})

[greybeard]

Posted by Pilgrim (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
Can "God" be killed off?
This following thought is not quite true but may be helpful.
In order to annihilate some thing you must first find it.
When the Self is looked for it is found to be love and you fall in love with it--that replaces fear and misery.
The whole purpose of the Buddha after enlightenment was to eliminate human misery.
Only that which is eternal is True everything else is passing.

I too have wished for total end to it all---life was unbearable--I could find nothing to live for in my life--least of all myself.
Then AA happened to me and recovery from misery began.
One eminent psychiatrist said that "If everyone was to follow the twelve steps of AA I would be out of a job"
One of the clichés of AA says "Let go, let God"

If help is asked for sincerely by anyone then it will come--you just have to be open to it.
When anyone has hit rock bottom and enough is enough-- then the choice is suicide or enough humility to say "I have done my best or worst and failed miserably, please help me" You don't even have to believe in God--He believes in you, for He is you.

Chris

Dear graybeard what is AA abreviation standing for (for us not native ENG speakers? sorry didn´t grasp that...) Thank you for an explanation... :-)

Pilgrim

Pilgrim thanks for your question.
Click the link on post 24 ps
There is a full explanation of Alcoholics Anonymous

Best wishes Chris

[Milneman]

I get the impression a few of us know Bill W. That's a comforting thought.

I know these are just subjective impressions, but I don't think I had the choice to never come back. Therefore, most likely I’ll keep on coming.

So, if we don’t have a say in that, where is our soul’s sovereignty? Are we spiritual slaves?

The problem with calling a natural law a law is that there is zero guarantee that the exact same behavior will repeat every single time. So you hold a ball in the air, and you let it go, and it falls to the ground. But there's no guarantee it's going to keep falling every single time. There is a chance, even if it is a small chance, that it will not fall.

-or-

Miracles can happen.

Unicorn, a lot of people think about the idea of Heaven as eternal...and they have this notion that eternal means doing the same things over and over again and being bored after a few thousand years, and then suddenly heaven becomes hell, and maybe that's the point when we decide to come back and try another go.

There's another way of looking at it. Maybe Heaven is timeless. Maybe the experience of pure bliss, joy, and love just exists without time. Maybe it's not streets paved with gold, and angels playing harps, but just...pure....love...in a way we could only experience one one thousandth of here on earth. Would you want to come back from that? I think a lot of people would say no, but probably, there are those that say I have to go back to help others find this place.

No-one has answered when we’ve cried out for help. We are stranded in an enclosure surrounded by darkness and ignorance. And that’s all for our good?

How can you be sure no one has answered?

Maybe the answer we get isn't the one we want to hear. It doesn't mean it's not the truth.... but I think I get what you're talking about. Are we to come back over and over to just see the shadows of things that are, or are we to actually struggle, fight, break the chains of our ignorance, and in the blinding light of the sun see things as they really are?

That's the wonderful part of the truth.

We also have to look at ourselves as we really are.

That's the terrifying part of the truth.

Karma: the equalizer. Does it justify the birth lottery? I can only think about this as a bad joke. Where is compassion in the system?


They put it where they knew you'd never think to look for it. They put it somewhere they'd know you'd see it, and say 'No, that can't be." so you would keep looking elsewhere. This is the great game we all play. But if you think hard enough, you'll realize...yup...its been with you the entire time. I promise.

The veil: is it at all necessary? Aren’t we confronted with the same testing situations during our present life, and we do learn from them, even better because we can remember? Isn’t it easier to advance in fuller consciousness?


Oh love...you have the arrow pointed in the wrong direction. Understand this: the game is just this. The veil is what we create to play the game. The game is pretending we aren't what we really are. As long as we have the veil, we can't advance to a fuller consciousness. And that advancement begins only when you understand what your veil is about. And that's the beautiful simplicity of the game.

If you want it to stop, you just stop playing. It really is that simple. And you know what I've found? The people who say it's more complicated are usually the people who are mastering the game and don't want you to notice they are.

And then everyone around you will start to get angry, will wonder what's wrong with you. Freed Fox is going through this right now (and I mention Foxy because it's really significant to me to see this his happening to a lot of people here. This is deeply significant!!) And most people will just...go back to playing. They'll go back to telling lies about themselves, telling lies to each other, and just living in....well...horse manure is the polite way of describing it.

Sorry if I sound rough and crude. I am not a unicorn any more. I am just worn-out and impotent, as I’ve lost faith.

Thanks for your thoughts and support. Your wonderful souls here at Avalon. Courage in your journey.

I'm going to tell you what I told Foxy. You are so close to crossing over the veil right now. You have no idea how close you are. Your hand is on the latch of the gate. The black forest is fighting you right now because it knows how powerful you are for the good side of things. It doesn't value you as an individual, the black forest. You're nothing but a battery. But any time someone stands up and tries to walk out, the black forest has to try and drag them back because...pay attention...this is important...because if you step out and walk on, that means they know they're wrong.

You are now in the fight of your life. Don't you f'n dare give up!!! Fight with everything you've got! And if you feel weary, you let us fight for you until you can!

This is the most important thing you've ever done in your life...what you're doing...right now. People who get this far and don't open the gate have to start over again, and it gets harder, not easier, the older you get.

Don't you dare give up. You are always and always will be a Unicorn.

[tonyp]

Oh dearest Unicorn my heart feels your pain , however I am here to make to make you smile. I have an unusual concept of creation which unlike most of what I have researched and read is refreshingly simple. You might like my interpretation or you might not, but from my perspective it always and forever puts a smile on my face. As one who experiences unknown entities on a regular basis, the good , the bad , the benevolent and maladjusted..I welcome them all and enjoy the challenges they are so willing and able to provide. Generally speaking I like to pit my wits against the Archons because they dont like losing ( Lol ) and they always do and keep on coming back for more lessons. They could be FA ,S or your run of the mill Aliens. When you get to know them as well as I do they can be quite adorable, however it takes experience to handle these tricky little energy attachments. The surprise is that they will always take me to the edge but never over it. The moral of that little story is that the experiment of human existence and creation needed both. Conclude that we are all in the same game but ultimatley both have the same goal.

Ok that apart here is my favoured theory and believe me I have many

1. For sure its all Holographic, there is no physical universe
2. Its all a super highway experience of conciousness
3. We are all just little bits of energy particals from the source
4. Don t forget , if you were the source from day one wish to create play friends not to get bored, THINK ABOUT IT
5 Yes we are all parts of the source
6. Yes its just a game which we all signed up for cause we were all bored the old game probably
7. If we had a memory of past that would completley ruin the game
8 Lucifer was Gods right hand man, for heavens sake noone in that position is ever likely to rebel

Please everyone get a grip on whats real and whats not.

Its true we are all part of the source and I find that immensley reassuring

Love you Unicorn

[Beren]

Many great posts here and they all explain and tell the same;
We are of Source thus cannot be extinguished.

As it is known , energy can never be spent. It change shapes continually. On this level , in this bodies we do not grasp this save a bit through mere theory here.
But when in spirit we grasp all at once.
Once I`ve seen in spirit a new planet being crafted and felt before this how I can feel the whole universe traveling through me and with me.
A profound experience even for a little while.

Down here it is like we are walking a 1000 miles path but in spirit we don`t even fly 1000 miles path , we are instantly there at the goal post.
Can you grasp the picture?

Thus I think that God is giving us bit by bit in understanding so we can grow as children grow.
Another thing I feel is the quickening of the growth since all is changing here.

So friend, soul cannot kill it self. It could be tricked or it can allow to be tricked for the sake of experience which the soul only knows of along with God but down here we don`t get it, we do not understand the highways of the spirit.
But through love we are rising, we are growing and we are remembering how it is to fly in spirit. How can we overcome toddler`s bodies and be grown humans in full ability.

Agape mentioned Buddha`s desires or choices to not be interested in abilities but in genuine help towards mankind to relieve the suffering and grow in Love.
Now this is a thing to ponder...