Apology

[Abhaya]

Wanted to take a moment to apologize. Some of you may be aware of my attempts to talk about vegetarianism on this forum. It is a subject I am passionate about. And something that plays a huge factor in the state of the world today. As well as being a possible solution to many problems we face today. However I find my self at a loss on how to present the issue. Regardless I am now sure that the methods I have choose in the past are inappropriate and ineffective. Despite my honest attempts to try not to come off as judgmental. I find I have caused extreme anger in others. And I have decided the error lies with me. Because no matter who is right or wrong in the argument, if someone is eliciting violent responses from people then they are probably doing it wrong, and unfit to be fronting the debate. So I apologize to all for conduct unbefitting this forum. While there are others who have been voicing the same cause as me on some of the threads, I feel I have been the most confronting where they have been patient and civil. So I will be making an honest attempt to address my behavior on this issue. I do still feel it is an important issue and if any one has any ideas on how we can better bring the issue forward I would love to hear your ideas.

Your forum friend
Abhaya

I will just leave this baby elk going nuts in a puddle here.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=BCKfYqjnMoY

[Milneman]

In other forums, when things got absolutely gongshow, I found recipes always helped. Food brings people together. When the going get tough, the tough get granola.

[Robin]

I feel you, Abhaya. It is a touchy subject that people get offended when they are presented with a compelling case that does not validate their beliefs. But I also understand both sides of the the debate.

I'm thinking about starting a new thread that will bring it to further light...I'll PM you later.

[Sunny-side-up]

Hello Abhaya Peace and Love.

Back when I first woke and was living a far more harmonious/ alternate life style I was a happy vegan.
At the moment I limit myself to include Fish and Birds in my diet
If I think to much about the subject I actually start felling bad about eating plants 0.o

I have great problems seeing Humans as advanced and or civilised when we actually still kill and eat creatures, life forms.
So for now I admit I am weak and ask the Earth and it's creatures including my-higher-self for forgiveness.

This material realm is so painful to me at times
But when I get myself into a better way of Life condition/situation I'll be vegan again.

[Ellisa]

Thank you for the lovely elk! I eat vegetarian food, but also eat some meat as I too, like the elk, am an animal. It is a herbivore, I am an omnivore. My adorable, lazy, fluffy cat is not only an obligatory carnivore (cannot survive healthily without meat) but he is also a fierce predator. We living creatures are what we are. I eat less meat than I used to, and I know the claims that it is possible to live on fruits and vegetables only, but usually we humans do live best on as varied a diet as possible.

Like many things where opinions can be deeply held, and offence can spring from just a mention of a differing opinion, sometimes it is best to suggest sensitively and allow for continuing difference of opinion. Recipes are indeed often a good way to start. A lot of people honestly do not know that vegetarian food can be tasty and satisfying as well as healthy!

[ginnyk]

Hello Abhaya.

May I submit this in all loving kindness. Maybe you are finding resistance on this forum because it is like preaching to the choir. I believe that by now most of us have heard all the pros and cons many times and have long ago made the decisions that fit our hearts and lifestyles. It is perfectly OK to be passionate in our beliefs, but people see things from different perspectives according to locale and customs of previous generations. By now, we have enough consciousness to know if we are doing right or wrong, and have the power within ourselves to make changes when that inner voice tells us it is time for that change.

Direct confrontation on such a visceral subject is about as successful as herding cats. Perhaps "here kitty, kitty" with some delicious recipies as Milneman suggested would help.

Love, Gin

[MariaDine]

I'm vegan. I take vitamins, iron etc, because I do lots of exercise.
But it's not for everybody.
When one is very young, it's easier if family or friends are vegan too.

I went vegan, when I had to kill a chicken ....

[chancy]

Hello Everyone:
I am seeing to much apolegetic sentiment! What's wrong with being a vegetarian or a vegan or a meat eater? I grew up and live in an area where meat is in and so are great veggies, fruits and anything else that is good for you. (most things should be eaten in moderation of course since I think we all know that? )
Since I confess I haven't read every thread on vegetarianism here on avalon I am speaking from the hip....
A few years ago I went to a big tradefair which was for vegetarians. ( we were invited and not told what the tradefair consisted of ) I am not vegetarian but definitely don't have a problem with anyone that wants to practice it.
Back to the tradefair....when my family went in to set up our exibit everyone wanted our product and that was excellent! I couldn't help notice and my family kept asking why does everyone look so frail and pale? Since our family is not vegetarian we didn't fit into the tradefair except to be stared at and asked constantly what we practiced? I kept saying we live on a farm and eat healthy but that was never enough so I finally had to tell everyone we ate beef, pork and lamb and pretty much any other meats and fish there was.
We had a great time because we were definitely different in the tradefair but met lots of great people who were brought up in vegetarianism. We all learned from each other and completely respected each others eating practices.
My point is there is NO need to apologize as long as you are not getting in someone elses face.
just sayin....
chancy

[Abhaya]

Thanks for the positive response guys. I like the recipe idea. And perhaps just going the route of putting up information in regards to how to start being vegetarian for those who are considering trying it. Diets plans and testimonials to encourage them. I guess it makes a lot of since to try to focus on those who are already thinking about it. Rather then stirring the pot amongst those who are not interested in the life style and having arguments where both sides are really wasting their breath.

[Arak]

I have been mostly vegetarian now for 2 years. I dont eat any meat, but I eat fish, eggs and dairy products. I feel 'bit bad because I am eating fish, but then again, I would eat meat if there would be no alternatives. But because _I can_ I have decided to speed up my spiritual evolution as much as possible and sure avoiding to eat animals is one way. (As is absolutism which I have chosen too.)

I am not that passionate about the issue, as I understand that most people are not ready to face the facts or evolve, but I do remember to tell them about the benefits of vegetarism. Here in Finland the newest nutritional advice is that 200 grams of meat per week would be enough. It is not a suprise that it has not gotten that much attention because off the food industry.

So my advice is that use subtle hints, quote scientific researches and try not to preach - people hate that.

[learninglight]

I don't call myself anything, i just say 'I don't eat meat'.
When asked why i usually answer ' Because I do not want to', then the conversation goes where it goes. i don't push what i do or do not do. This has helped my family and friends think about what they eat, even if it is only when they are with me, they rarely will eat meat in my presence.
My daughter rarely eats meat now, and when she does it's mainly organic chicken, i know to you this is still wrong in her mind set, but, to go from a full meat diet, to a chicken now and again to me is a big move in the right direction.

This is a very emotive subject, you will open more eyes and minds if you are gentle with them, don't shove what is right or wrong at others, you will lose their interest before you can say 'Old Mc,Donald had a farm, and on that farm he had a pig'
Good luck, will be watching for the new thread

sharon

[buckminster fuller]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=KC1DyU_cSvM

[Agape]

In my best opinion , the whole topic has very little to do with what people tend to make it , a debate about 'dieting' but it's all about loving kindness and compassion.

I was never particularly fond of eating meat but as a kid I had to , since it was part of our 'European diet' . Being vegetarian was and still is considered an 'excess' in many circles here , and if you come to doctors here and mention you don't eat meat, they automatically start questioning you and blaming all your problems just on that .

I came to Shivananda Ashram in Rishikesh as 19 year old, on my journey to search for truth and pathway to Himalayas , found great teachers there , not only by their learning but also by their kind and caring approach .
I was newcomer to India that time , and young student with few pennies in my pocket . Never was I asked for money , for food and tutoring and what made us all happy together was the inner fire and quest for truth .
It was perfectly understandable that as noble and sovereign beings we do not take life of other creatures . Do not kill. Do not steal . Do not lie .
It is much much easier to learn by example than by words and statements .

I'm sure that the European culture where I was born claimed very similar values but seldom followed them .

And there, at the footsteps of Himalayas , for the first time in my life I felt loved , cared for from bottom of hearts and like a free being .

So to be honest ... and even though I travelled a lot later in my life and was eager to follow Buddhist teachings particularly for my love of meditation and inner work ,
I would not touch meat in any form for more than 17 years ,
and I witnessed miracles happening for that . One of them was when the whole Namgyal monastery in Dharamsala kitchen was turned vegetarian , the 2nd year after I came and since .
I take it was very wise decision because you really don't need lots of aggression and disturbed minds when you are monk and want to study and meditate on compassion.

However, and this is the point I wanted to make at start ... it's really the love and compassion in your 'soup' being important than everything else .

People who live in cold climates with little vegetation would once die off if they did not eat meat . When you have to save life and have no other choice than to kill a chicken , it's what you should do .

There are no laws from outside that justify or order your behaviour . The important truth comes from inside and it's about love , and compassion.


This has very little to do with overindulgence in food of whatever sort .. and wasting your body .. wasting lives .. wasting nature ... letting others starve . Not thinking for anyone than yourself alone .

[bogeyman]

Why do you need to apologize? If you wish to discuss the matter then fine.

[Abhaya]

Posted by bogeyman (here)
Why do you need to apologize? If you wish to discuss the matter then fine.

If u saw how some of my other threads went you'd understand.

But yeah I do wish to discuss just wanted some advice on the best way to do so. Good stuff so far!

[chocolate]

Abhaya,
When you say 'discussion' that implies you are trying to find answers, too. Stay open for them when they appear, don't try to always have the same answers that would make you feel good inside. Growth is sometimes connected to getting outside your comfort zone.
If you want a dialogue, you have to accept that everyone has an opinion and respect that opinion, even if it doesn't coincide with what you want to convey. We are different, even though in a broader frame the same, and each of us has that flame inside that keeps us going. If you always remember that than you will not have reasons to apologize. Respect that the others have the right and freedom to be what they have chosen to be. Everything else will take its place.

[Heartsong]

Your apology is insightful and appreciated although not really necessary. I am one who needs educating. I'm not vegetarian and think it's fine if others are.

My problem comes when preparing a meal when some are vegan, some are vegetarian, some are gluten free, some are corn free, some are lactose intolerant, some will eat organic only, some no GMO, some eat chicken and not fish, some eat fish and not chicken and so on.....how do you prepare a meal with all those restrictions? Granted that not all those restrictions occur at the same dinner, but it's harder and harder to have people over.

[chocolate]

I don't think not eating meat is the answer to anything. Balance and harmony are some of the answers, even if that means killing animals to live.

I have been a vegetarian for more than 20 years, but I never felt the need to advocate the idea to anyone, I only had to survive everyone's need to tell me I was wrong in avoiding meat. [I have a physical problems when I eat meat, which later affects also the way I feel, but I am certain meat and animal products are essential for the human body.]

[grannyfranny100]

I have never understood why some vegetarians are so militant. This planet is alive with people of differing races, differing cultures, differing adaptations to their micro climate and food sources as well as differing DNA.

Just because you have found something that works for you does not mean it is right for everyone. That kind of mindset does not respect the diversity that we must learn to appreciate if we are to survive as a species, live together peacefully and eventually explore other worlds.

As others have suggested, soften your militancy by sharing some recipes that might expand veggie consumption.

[Snowflower]

You probably would reject the advice I'd offer which is to not believe it with are so much unconditional absolute fervor. You could be wrong. I know, I know - you know without a single molecule of doubt that you are NOT wrong. But...you could be. Because you aren't the point of singularity in the Universe, you could be wrong. See? It is upsetting for me to suggest the possibility of you being wrong. That's the problem in reverse.

I know without a molecule of doubt (but I could be wrong) that I need to eat meat to find health. I tried the veggie route more than a dozen times and failed each and every time - with strong advice, good nutrition, and sound practices. But it failed MY body. Not yours, not someone else's. Mine.

I wouldn't have understood the concept that KNOWING without a molecule of doubt that I AM NOT WRONG really upsets other people who have a different value of rightness or wrongness, if it hadn't been for religious principles. For 35 years I knew without a SHRED of doubt that the Baha'i Faith was the absolute truth - so little molecule of doubt that it was impossible for me to engage in actual conversation with others who did NOT know that. I used to think it was conversation, but it wasn't. It was me proselytizing them. I didn't really LISTEN to them. I waited for them to finish talking so I could TEACH them. And all that time, I was busy offending others without ever knowing it. The only reason I learned the lesson I'm currently living with (could be others in future), was because I discovered for myself that I MIGHT be wrong. And that's when I learned how to actually talk to others.

So - if you can possibly take in the idea that you might be wrong - maybe you would stop offending?