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    United States Avalon Member Alien Ramone's Avatar
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    Default Time Travel and Predetermination

    IF:
    All times exist at once with all time branches existing at once and being the result of travel to different points in time.

    THEN:
    Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist?

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    With over 300 million dreamers, creator student souls right here, and others in the Universe, the answer to that is: "Infinite as long as life survives and thrives in the worlds, Universe of Universes.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    Quote Originally posted by Alien Ramone:"Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist? "
    Hi AR, everything already exists but the question is on what timeline strip are we? If to reduce to only a few words the description of the battle that is going on nowdays between the various participating energies, it all comes down to timelines. It is like pulling a rope that has more than two tail ends, many (most of us forum members and others) are working to keep the organic timeline (the divine cosmic plan) in order, the current controllers are doing all they can to divert it for their own best outcome and other players do the same for themselves. Yet it all exists, it's just depends to which 'number' we dial when we lift the handset.

    Despite some who say with truth into it that we are already on a positive (for us) fixed timeline and we can rest on our laurels, truth is that the dynamics and time manipulations done from different factors via technology can supress the organic path also through the manipulation of free will of society. So, it is good to keep helping the higher frequencies find their way to the planet.

    So, the practical answer to your question is- yes, it is all predetermined, but it is not a done deal.

    And the answer from the heart is - Yes it is, I'll see you all at the prom

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    I find the subject fascinating, synchronistically--I checked out one of my favorite blogs, The Peaceful Self, just yesterday...I love this dude's writing/thinking:



    Quote Some 13 billion years ago, you were born. Certainly not the “I-me” you experience now, but everything that preceded what you experience now had to unfold for “you” to experience this moment now. If the universe unfolded in any other way, you would not experience this moment exactly as you now experience it.

    Many Ghandis and Hitlers had to have existed for you to be in the present moment you are now experiencing. Therefore, what you are doing now is what you should be doing now or you wouldn't be doing it.

    There is nothing you should be doing but what you’re doing now.

    However, if wanting to do something other than what you’re doing now is what you want to do now, then go ahead and do that instead. You are never NOT present to the moment you are now in, even if in this moment now you’re utilizing some practice as a means of trying to “be in the moment” that you believe you are not in now.

    Egocentric mammalians rely exclusively on the chronic non-acceptance of the moment as it is, believing that each moment should be other than what it is and it does seem clear this has always been their fate as a species.
    Yet, based on a predetermined causal universe, if the moment was to be experienced in a way other than how you are now experiencing it, it is certain you would experience it in just that way and no other.

    When you pray for something, you ask for change and for something to be other than what it is. When you meditate, you seek to experience something different from what you are now experiencing, to acquire some new mental state or way of feeling. When you engage in ‘spiritual’ practices based on ideological rules, some “Master of Change” made up, you seek for a different moment than this one now.


    The internet is a teeming cesspool of religio-spiritual ideologies, rules, rituals and practices, to aid you in experiencing a different moment than the one you are in right now, by informing you that the moment you are in right now is not the moment you should be in right now.

    Millions of ideologies have been constructed exclusively to cater to your consistent non-acceptance of whom and what you are in this moment and your desire to change this moment into something else by desiring the ‘self’ experience something other than what it now experiences.

    Nevertheless, even the desire to change the moment is wrapped up in the moment. You are never NOT in the moment, even when in the past moment. Seeking to change the moment is IN the moment. A thought to achieve a different experience in the future is an electro-chemical impulse of the present, just as a thought not to do what was once done is in the moment.

    However, as neuroscience is demonstrating, due to a slight delay in neural processing (Libet experiment) even a moment experienced ‘now’ is a moment that has already passed, making the past an experience in the present moment. Those who prescribe seeking “pure consciousness” fail to realize that all experiences have a miniscule time delay, thereby, making it already a past experience upon being experienced in the present.

    That thought that you’re thinking right now, actually occurred a second before you thought it. Hence, the paradox is that every present moment is of the past and every past moment is ultimately in the present.

    That spiritual “awakening” you experienced happened before you experienced it, proving “you” had nothing to do with it and there is nothing to be done, but exactly what you’re doing. When the predetermined causal order decides you should wake up to some other moment, then there is no doubt you will, just not by choice.
    Every self-proclaimed new age-master-guru-teacher tells you that there is something you must ‘do’ to be enlightened, some way you must think or behave. Over the years I found many to have fascinating ideas, until they prescribe a practice (like meditation or prayer), always with the implication that without this practice your achieving enlightenment is destined to fail.


    Egocentrica mammalia wants to know what to do and can never accept that what he is doing is exactly what should be done.

    The tendency to be a teacher is compelling to egocentrica mammalians, since their entire life has been all about learning how to have exceptionally “happy” moments by actualizing a ‘self’ through historically prescribed socio-cultural methods of achieving “happiness.” Unfortunately, all this learning appears to have resulted in the very opposite of what they desire, but they keep plugging away in the “pursuit of happiness,” as only egocentrica mammalians can and must do, because the predetermined causal order compels them to believe they should be always doing something other than what they are doing in the moment.

    If you’re supposed to do the prescribed practice, then your neuro-circuits will take you there and you will engage the practice and vigorously baptize it with grand meaning and purpose, simply because you have to, until some other sacred jewel catches your neuro-circuited up-to-the-moment programming. You have never had a choice in what experiences sculpted your brain circuits, even up to the point you made your first conscious decision to do something, in tangent with fully formed memory circuits allowing you to remember making that decision all by your ‘self.’

    You are engaged in that spiritual practice simply because childhood experiences that sculpted the developing gray matter influenced other thoughts and actions, subsequently influencing others, on and on, leading you to the desire to be a “spiritual” person who engages “spiritual” practices.

    Egocentrica mammalians love to proudly proclaim, “I did that,” as if they had any part in the experiences that program their grey matter, while the predetermined causal order indifferently allows the next thought to naturally arise as it always does, even before you think it and, thus, with no help from “you.”

    You are part of an ever unfolding predetermined causal web. Your ‘choice' to become “spiritual” occurred billions of years ago, long before there was a delusion of an “I-me” making choices.
    You are simply flowing along with a predetermined force that has shaped your consciousness just as it has shaped the entire universe. The universe not only gave you consciousness, but every object in consciousness as well. Some recommend not resisting this flow, but again, this is not up to “you,” because even your resistance is entirely allowed and enfolded within the causal order.

    Nothing is free of the predetermined causal WILL that allowed for the delusion of free-will to be experienced in the first place.


    Every perception in every moment has been exquisitely sculpted to precisely provide the exact details you perceive in the moment of perception and all else is simply filtered out of awareness, because the neuro-circuits simply do not exist for which to experience other stimuli that it has not been precisely sculpted to experience.

    You perceive a world that the conditioned neuro-circuitry allows you to perceive, based on childhood experiences that have been programmed into the circuitry, thus filtering out other experiences. There are experiences all around you that you will never encounter, simply because you were not culturally progammed or genetically endowed with the precise circuitry, as well as dopamine/serotonin levels, necessary for that experience to register in your cranial fatty tissue.

    You have no personal responsibility for your thoughts, beliefs and actions and the choice you make in the next moment was made long before your actual birth. The decision you make in the next moment is predetermined to be made exactly as you make it, because a predetermined causal universe has ordained it be made exactly as it is and in no other way can it occur.

    Your acceptance of this fact, or your failure to accept, is entirely contingent on the current programmed impulses coursing through your dense noggin right this moment, because you are never NOT in the moment and so can only do what that moment prescribes.


    Your neuro-circutry determines what you experience and how you will respond. So relax, kick back and get all jiggy with whatever the fook you’re doing right now, because it has been causally predetermined to be exactly what you should be doing right now.

    There can be nothing “wrong” in a causally determined universe and, hence, there has never once been a “problem” with anything that has happened or will happen, as it can only happen exactly as it must.

    Artwork by Mark Ryden

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    Quote Posted by Alien Ramone (here)
    IF:
    All times exist at once with all time branches existing at once and being the result of travel to different points in time.

    THEN:
    Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist?
    I think there is an equation in all this, without constants but with infinite variables.

    Last edited by korgh; 15th January 2014 at 17:05.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    I think The Peaceful Self writer sounds like he read and was influenced by the writings of Tim Leary ("your neuro-circuits") and Robert Anton Wilson (views of "egocentrica mammalians") among no doubt many others.

    An enjoyable read.
    I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. - Robert Anton Wilson

    The present as you think of it, and in practical working terms, is that point at which you select your physical experience from all those events that could be materialized. - Seth (The Nature of Personal Reality - Session 656, Page 293)

    (avatar image: Brocken spectre, a wonderful phenomenon of nature I have experienced and a symbol for my aspirations.)

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    As I understand it, all outcomes and all possibilities do exist in the universe.

    But it's the ones you choose that determine your fate. It's a bit like a video game disk - it's a completed piece of work, all potential options already exist on the disk, but how you play the game and the choices you make while playing add up to your destiny.
    Last edited by Mike; 15th January 2014 at 18:14.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    Quote Posted by Chinaski (here)
    As I understand it, all outcomes and all possibilities do exist in the universe.

    But it's the ones you choose that determine your fate. It's a bit like a video game disk - it's a completed piece of work, all potential options already exist on the disk, but how you play the game and the choices you make while playing add up to your destiny.

    I think the possibilities are dynamic.
    If at the same time, the past / present / future occupy the same timeline and and if you execute an action considering that the variables are endless the results are well known.
    The time line branches resulting are created according variables. Infinitely
    Last edited by korgh; 15th January 2014 at 18:31.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    The difference is only a fraction of a second ... freewill can change everything but , as long as we keep thinking the same way , making the same mistakes , the future has an easy job ...
    Raiding the Matrix One Mind at a Time ...

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    According to quantum physics, it is a probabilistic universe.
    All possibilities are possible with certain frequencies acquired for lives and lives become more likely.
    But the endless possibilities exist only because one primary consciousness that created and maintains in energy state.
    Therefore, this primary consciousness imagination is the limit. In quantum physics is called the Quantum Vacuum.
    We all exist within him.
    We are it.

    Hug.

    Naste.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    hi again! ( i love this thread )

    While i was driving to home ( and thinking about it), suddenly an image just flash in mind.
    A torus knot!
    Let me explain first:
    IF the past/present/future occupies the same space at the same time, there is no time line but instead, a "continuum" of which none part can be distinguished from other parts except by arbitrary division.
    So, i was wonder.. at the point of intersection of the parts should exist something.. and thanks to naste.de.lumina in the thread above, all makes some sense: the Quantum Vacuum.

    the image:



    What do you think?
    Last edited by korgh; 15th January 2014 at 21:44.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    Quote Posted by korgh (here)
    hi again! ( i love this thread )

    While i was driving to home ( and thinking about it), suddenly an image just flash in mind.
    A torus knot!
    Let me explain first:
    IF the past/present/future occupies the same space at the same time, there is no time line but instead, a "continuum" of which none part can be distinguished from other parts except by arbitrary division.
    So, i was wonder.. at the point of intersection of the parts should exist something.. and thanks to naste.de.lumina in the thread above, all makes some sense: the Quantum Vacuum.

    the image:



    What do you think?
    Present, past, future and the 'no time'.
    The Quantum Vacuum is all that exists.

    The Symphony of Time - What is the 'I' without 'TIME'?

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    Yes, thats it.
    The intersection point is all about it.
    i found an interesting article about the vacuum state for relativistic quantum field:

    Yet More Ado About Nothing: The Remarkable Relativistic Vacuum State by Stephen J. Summers at Princeton University on October 3-4, 2007
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.1854

    Stephen J. Summers
    (Submitted on 13 Feb 2008 (v1), last revised 20 Feb 2009 (this version, v2)

    An overview is given of what mathematical physics can currently say about the vacuum state for relativistic quantum field theories on Minkowski space. Along with a review of classical results such as the Reeh--Schlieder Theorem and its immediate and controversial consequences, more recent results are discussed. These include the nature of vacuum correlations and the degree of entanglement of the vacuum, as well as the striking fact that the modular objects determined by the vacuum state and algebras of observables localized in certain regions of Minkowski space encode a remarkable range of physical information, from the dynamics and scattering behavior of the theory to the external symmetries and even the space--time itself. These modular objects also provide an intrinsic characterization of the vacuum state itself, a fact which is of particular relevance to the search for criteria to select physically significant reference states for quantum field theories on curved space--times.


    Also, another good text found in the Physics Forums website:


    Quantum vacuum is the lowest energetic (ground) state of a quantum system. There is no quantum excitations (also called "particles" or "quasi-particles") in the quantum vacuum.

    A quantum vacuum is simply a fancy name for the ground state. That is, it is the lowest energy state of the system. The interesting thing about the electric and magnetic fields in quantum electrodynamics is that their ground state is represented by zero photons. However, their ground state is not zero energy. In fact, in a completely empty space, the quantum vacuum can have an infinite number of frequencies of fluctuating fields occuring, a continuous spectrum. Each frequency represents a mode, a possible excitation of the fields in the system, and each mode has a certain discrete energy density. So the quantum vacuum has infinite energy if we do not restrict the possible frequencies of electric and magnetic fields. One way to think of this is that in quantum electrodynamics, we think of the photons as being the energy packets (quanta) that occur when we excite the electromagnetic waves. Each energy level of the electric and magnetic fields represents an additional photon being excited. These photons "come" from the vacuum state. Since the vacuum state has infinite energy, it has infinite photons. Everytime we add energy into the electromagnetic fields, we just pull a photon out of the vacuum state.

    Cheers
    Last edited by korgh; 16th January 2014 at 08:58.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    The fact that you would even ask such a question tells me I am in the right place

    To begin, deltaT deltaE (wavy equal sign) h/2pi

    For changes in time (very small), changes in the total energy (potential energy
    + momentum) vary slightly over the area of a circle equal to the planck constant.
    (the planck constant is about 6.626x10^-34). As TS Eliot would say, "the circle
    of human understanding is a very small thing indeed" . So at the microscopic level
    predetermination is impossible. This comforts me because there was a guy named
    Laplace that basically said, "if you had an infinite intelligence and knew where
    everything in the universe was, and how to calculate where it was going to be.
    Then the future would turn into a clock work". Very scary. Turns out because of
    Heisenberg, whom I robbed from at the beginning we can never know the exact
    position and momentum of very small things, so there!

    Your second proposition, that time is oblivion (all things exist at all times) is
    >>Changing the above, it's tricky, time is unknowable, does not exist.<<
    as old as the Greek philosophers AFAIK. And is still open to debate.

    Time travel itself is just fascinating and possible.
    Last edited by dsldog; 15th January 2014 at 23:31.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    Thanks korgh, I tried to reply to your post directly and couldnt. The interesting thing about quantum vacuum
    is that it doesnt exist in the sense we can, or should I say have created one. It's been postulated that creation,
    The Big Bang (which is a phrase I really dont like) was precipitated by quantum vacuum.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    A variation of the double slit experiment seems to suggest that events in the present can determine what happened in the past.

    Everything is interconnected by quantum entanglement.



    The existing quantum entanglement among us asked me to remind you of that.

    UPDATE

    Quote FULLNESS IN EMPTINESS: FROM THE QUANTUM VACUUM TO THE INFINITE SELF
    Menas Kafatos


    The recent likely discovery of the Higgs boson at CERN, Switzerland, has brought forward questions about the ultimate structure of matter. Quantum field theory assigns the origin of the Higgs and all fields to the quantum vacuum. Far from being empty, the quantum vacuum contains ubiquitous fields, filling all space. These virtual fields, although not appearing in the usual physical sense, they are nevertheless “there” and they are “felt”. In fact, physicists have known for more than fifty years that quantum fields and, ultimately, at the limit of unification of gravity with quantum theory, at the Planck dimension, the “emptiness” of the vacuum overwhelms everything of physical substance in terms of potential energies and huge numbers of particles. Out of the quantum vacuum, not only do particles emanate, because of the uncertainty principle, entire universes can pop out. The discovery may even help us understand why it appears that all the visible matter in the universe makes up only 4% of whatever there is. The rest may be dark matter and even more (repulsive) dark energy. Not only is the vacuum full of stuff, it is full of dark stuff!

    The quantum vacuum may even be involved in living and even brain processes. This would not be surprising, if everything physical owes its existence to the vacuum, shouldn’t (those who follow a physicalist view of the cosmos would agree) then even life and consciousness ultimately be tied to the vacuum? It is all in the emptiness.

    For us, seeking a non-dualist paradigm, these statements about the quantum vacuum, point to something else that is vast, empty, beyond thoughts, while at the same time being the source of all thoughts, all object awareness, blissful awareness in Being, manifesting throughout the universe. With the progress brought about through the development of quantum theory, the act of observation has taken a central role: No quantum properties exist without the act of observation. Our universe is a participatory one, it would not exist without observations. Besides following what science and mathematics imply, direct experience is most important. Beyond thoughts, the emptiness of the Self, in analogy to the quantum vacuum, contains everything. Let’s explore these possibilities and realities together.

    Source: http://www.scienceandnonduality.com/SAND12_PL1.shtml
    Last edited by naste.de.lumina; 16th January 2014 at 01:01.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    THANKS, very well explained, considering that this subject is not easy to speak of, usually hard to find words.
    Remember WE ARE DESITION MAKERS WITH FREE WILL, so every time we change our minds on something we literally change universes . YETTI

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    naste.de.lumina,

    "The Wheeler–Feynman absorber theory (also called the Wheeler–Feynman time-symmetric theory) is an interpretation of electrodynamics derived from the assumption that the solutions of the electromagnetic field equations must be invariant under time-reversal symmetry, as are the field equations themselves. Indeed, there is no apparent reason for the time-reversal symmetry breaking which singles out a preferential time direction and thus makes a distinction between past and future. A time-reversal invariant theory is more logical and elegant."

    >> I'll try and fill it in a little later. There was this guy, Maxwell, who formalized
    the theory of electromagnetism in such a way that the interactions were characterized by both and advance or forward wave and a retarded or reversed
    one. Turns out the best way to understand the interaction is that the waves
    travel forwards and backwards in time. Feynman, who thought it up was never
    quite comfortable with the idea. Wonder why? <<
    Last edited by dsldog; 16th January 2014 at 01:13.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    How about this ;
    We are stuck in time loop with no recollection except few, when exterior visitor intercept to any moment, they create a new time loop.

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    Default Re: Time Travel and Predetermination

    Quote Posted by dsldog (here)
    naste.de.lumina,

    "The Wheeler–Feynman absorber theory (also called the Wheeler–Feynman time-symmetric theory) is an interpretation of electrodynamics derived from the assumption that the solutions of the electromagnetic field equations must be invariant under time-reversal symmetry, as are the field equations themselves. Indeed, there is no apparent reason for the time-reversal symmetry breaking which singles out a preferential time direction and thus makes a distinction between past and future. A time-reversal invariant theory is more logical and elegant."

    >> I'll try and fill it in a little later. There was this guy, Maxwell, who formalized
    the theory of electromagnetism in such a way that the interactions were characterized by both and advance or forward wave and a retarded or reversed
    one. Turns out the best way to understand the interaction is that the waves
    travel forwards and backwards in time. Feynman, who thought it up was never
    quite comfortable with the idea. Wonder why? <<
    Dear dsldog.

    I have no deep knowledge to discuss with Mr. Feynman.
    But I do not have the same limitations that he should have to expose your thoughts.

    I think that the time / space is formed by a series of waves in addition to electromagnetic fields, which can tune endless variations of frequency bands.

    The space / time , our universe, is only one of them.

    Who remembers flying in very realistic and conscious dreams was in a universe with different physical laws and constitution.

    Time is an illusion, a construction of our mind (frequency).

    So the perception of the passage of time can speed up or slow depending on the situation.

    Hug.

    Naste.
    Last edited by naste.de.lumina; 16th January 2014 at 22:03.

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