Time Travel and Predetermination

[Alien Ramone]

Posted by Limor (here)
Yet it all exists, it's just depends to which 'number' we dial when we lift the handset.

Hi Limor,
That view of it makes some sense, and I think I have read Bill Ryan mention ideas that sound similar where the possibilities exist, but we have influence on which path we take. In my interpretation in these cases "we" would refer to our consciousnesses at this instant in this universe. Each moment that a new timeline occurs either by chance events in quantum mechanics or time travel interference there would be different versions of us making decisions each considering themselves part of "we" and considering the other outcomes just as possibilities. Another question is whether the possible outcomes consist of every possibility that we can think of or just every possibility that quantum mechanics allow for. For example physical structures in the brain of each person may limit what quantum mechanics may allow them or cause them to think and do. For example, there might not be a universe for every possible motion I might make at this moment, because any motion I might make could be limited by what the limits of what my brain would decide based on what is happening at the quantum level. This question applies to the "physical" world too. On a PBS science show I had heard them say that based on quantum mechanics there was a possibility of someone walking through a wall, but it was a very low one. To me that implies that there would be a universe for every possible combination of people walking through every wall possible, because by chance everything at the quantum level just happened to be in the right location for it. Then there would have to be a universe where every possible event as strange or stranger than that happens. That just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe chance at the quantum level comes out the same in every parallel timeline until some outside energy in the sphere of influence from something such as time travel acts upon it or maybe parts of that universe don't split until spheres of influence get to those parts. I'm just coming up with bits and pieces as part of a stream of consciousness in trying to figure out some idea that makes sense related to how it all works.

Here is a video where someone discusses the subject and gives some crazy sounding examples related to all possibilities happening, but doesn't consider that quantum physics may limit the possibilities:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wx4GZJpL8W0

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wx4GZJpL8W0

[Craig]

In regards to Donk's post quoting from the blog, am I correct to think that it boils down to being like a movie? Where we are just going along without the ability to fast forward to see what happens? I think I can understand the being in of the now instant but having it predetermined and just waiting for that part to catch up and pass by doesn't make much sense.

If everything exists at once is it our 3D brains that limit what we can see at any one time? And where do multi or higher dimensions fit in?

Also if actions we create form new pathways or timelines amongst the infinite that already exist, if I in simple terms go left instead of right does that mean the whole world also turns left on this new path? If some turned right would they filter out of my viewpoint? If so would we all have memories of people fluttering through in and out of our lives and wondering what happened to them when inevitably we make a different decision?

I love topics such as this, but as I age they quickly render my rational thinking to mush. The complex ideals no longer make any sense to me which is a shame.

[T Smith]

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)
IF:
All times exist at once with all time branches existing at once and being the result of travel to different points in time.

THEN:
Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist?

Yes. All that can exists, already exists. In a sense, you can say all events that can exist, do exist, and therefore everything is pre-determinined.

Think of it like a vast, endless sea. It's all there. As conscious beings, we navigate the sea and move through it.

[Bob]

Good thread - I would put my two cents in the quantum cube, all outcomes possible, written and Limor's question, what "track" are we on..

[GreenGuy]

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)
IF:
All times exist at once with all time branches existing at once and being the result of travel to different points in time.

THEN:
Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist?

Short answer: No. Just curious, what makes you so certain of your premise?

[korgh]

Posted by dsldog (here)
naste.de.lumina,

"The Wheeler–Feynman absorber theory (also called the Wheeler–Feynman time-symmetric theory) is an interpretation of electrodynamics derived from the assumption that the solutions of the electromagnetic field equations must be invariant under time-reversal symmetry, as are the field equations themselves. Indeed, there is no apparent reason for the time-reversal symmetry breaking which singles out a preferential time direction and thus makes a distinction between past and future. A time-reversal invariant theory is more logical and elegant."

>> I'll try and fill it in a little later. There was this guy, Maxwell, who formalized
the theory of electromagnetism in such a way that the interactions were characterized by both and advance or forward wave and a retarded or reversed
one. Turns out the best way to understand the interaction is that the waves
travel forwards and backwards in time. Feynman, who thought it up was never
quite comfortable with the idea. Wonder why? <<

A long time ago, when I was studying the behavior of electromagnetic waves and their application, I remember I read about this feature in moving forward and backward. I remember that it did not help much because my concern was the behavior of waves in an environment subject to chaos. So I never put this question to myself.
Thus, i think that we could consider this relativity within a multidimensional plan as a multi-dimensional universe.
My mind was a chaos at the time ... a nightmare.

[Alien Ramone]

Posted by GreenGuy (here)

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)
IF:
All times exist at once with all time branches existing at once and being the result of travel to different points in time.

THEN:
Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist?

Short answer: No. Just curious, what makes you so certain of your premise?

I'm not certain at all, but am sort of fishing for clarifications and ideas related to the subject. When people bring up this idea, often it's unclear if they are saying that all the possibilities actually exist in other universes or that the possibilities are there to be chosen. sometimes it seems like they are implying that it is both ways, which doesn't make sense to me.

I'm sort of looking for answers related things like time travel and multi-verses that explain things the way Einstein explained relativity. He had it worked all the way through with explanations and examples that made sense and mathematically worked out. Others in the field were also coming up with things like time dilation and got the math right, but weren't able to come up with an explanation that added up.

[korgh]

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)

Posted by GreenGuy (here)

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)
IF:
All times exist at once with all time branches existing at once and being the result of travel to different points in time.

THEN:
Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist?

Short answer: No. Just curious, what makes you so certain of your premise?

I'm not certain at all, but am sort of fishing for clarifications and ideas related to the subject. When people bring up this idea, often it's unclear if they are saying that all the possibilities actually exist in other universes or that the possibilities are there to be chosen. sometimes it seems like they are implying that it is both ways, which doesn't make sense to me.

I'm sort of looking for answers related things like time travel and multi-verses that explain things the way Einstein explained relativity. He had it worked all the way through with explanations and examples that made sense and mathematically worked out. Others in the field were also coming up with things like time dilation and got the math right, but weren't able to come up with an explanation that added up.

There is a very interesting work, published by Lisa Randall (Harvard physicist), titled "Warped Passages: Unraveling the Mysteries of the Universe's Hidden Dimensions".
It worth reading

[Alien Ramone]

Posted by dsldog (here)
naste.de.lumina,

"The Wheeler–Feynman absorber theory (also called the Wheeler–Feynman time-symmetric theory) is an interpretation of electrodynamics derived from the assumption that the solutions of the electromagnetic field equations must be invariant under time-reversal symmetry, as are the field equations themselves. Indeed, there is no apparent reason for the time-reversal symmetry breaking which singles out a preferential time direction and thus makes a distinction between past and future. A time-reversal invariant theory is more logical and elegant."

>> I'll try and fill it in a little later. There was this guy, Maxwell, who formalized
the theory of electromagnetism in such a way that the interactions were characterized by both and advance or forward wave and a retarded or reversed
one. Turns out the best way to understand the interaction is that the waves
travel forwards and backwards in time. Feynman, who thought it up was never
quite comfortable with the idea. Wonder why? <<

Thanks. I've listened to Feyman's CD set of lectures on physics and learned about Maxwell's equations on "The Mechanical Universe" DVD set, but I don't remember hearing about the time-symmetric theories. With these kinds of answers I'm picking up bits and pieces of information and clues that I didn't know about before.

[Alien Ramone]

Posted by naste.de.lumina (here)
A variation of the double slit experiment seems to suggest that events in the present can determine what happened in the past.

Everything is interconnected by quantum entanglement.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=3A6ageOaS-E

The kind of information in the video makes me wonder, if changing something through observation creates a new timeline. It also makes me wonder about the opposite, which is, if the observation isn't made, would the so called random events at the quantum level have all turned out the same with no new timeline being created unless there was an observation or something else acting on it to change it. In other words, I am talking about not all possibilities happening, just new possibilities arising when the past is acted on from the future.

[Alien Ramone]

Posted by Tangri (here)
How about this ;
We are stuck in time loop with no recollection except few, when exterior visitor intercept to any moment, they create a new time loop.

I consider the possibility of much higher powers and even an all encompassing consciousness, so time loops and outside interference aren't out of the question. Just loosely I'm thinking there are time loops at a microscopic level or or maybe within a controlled area using technology, but with a time loop of the type I've seen in some science fiction, things just seem too coincidental for it to be the way things work over all. Here is a link to an "Outer Limits" episode where scientists accidentally create a localized time loop. Below that are links to some videos with the type of time loops that I think are less likely to exist:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xx7...-vu_shortfilms



https://youtube.com/watch?v=WqQ_FIsouGY

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cf1caeyd53Y

[korgh]

I think to create a new branch (or new temporal possibility) will always be a necessary action. Even a thought can interact with the timeline and the action have the effect of reaction. If you change the past re-actively, you can create a loop and if you change the future, will also create another loop. action and reaction.
I have to read more, because there are so many factors that will also has influence in equation.

..and talking about time loop, i saw a movie time ago about it. (I have seen so many ...)
Is not bad and the story line is ok.

Looper (2012)

[chocolate]

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)
IF:
All times exist at once with all time branches existing at once and being the result of travel to different points in time.

THEN:
Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist?

Can you please define:
Time
Universe
Exist

Once you manage to do that for me I will give you my answer.

Not trying to be funny.
Important thread though, thank you.

[korgh]

Posted by chocolate (here)

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)
IF:
All times exist at once with all time branches existing at once and being the result of travel to different points in time.

THEN:
Isn't the universe just a more complicated version of the "mechanical universe" with everything already predetermined in the sense that all outcomes already exist?

Can you please define:
Time
Universe
Exist

Once you manage to do that for me I will give you my answer.

Not trying to be funny.
Important thread though, thank you.

This is getting more and more interesting...

[chocolate]

And because I am certain defining the above will be a bit hard, my short answer is like that:

From the point of view of your current life, your life is not predetermined. You make your choice every moment, which in turn weaves your thread to the end.
From that perspective the definitions that I asked for are not all that necessary.

But if you decide to look at the subject from the point of view of your Higher Perspective/Self (if that is a state of existence you are comfortable with, since I don't really know you), than the answer is a bit more complex and the notion of the mechanical universe is close to being accurate (for me personally).

If I don't see much argument after I post this, or if I see an argument that will encourage me to say a bit more of what I am currently thinking, for me this might just become one of the most important threads that are currently being created on the forum.

Otherwise I will simply observe the outcome here.

Love and respect to all!

[donk]

Posted by Craig (here)
In regards to Donk's post quoting from the blog, am I correct to think that it boils down to being like a movie? Where we are just going along without the ability to fast forward to see what happens? I think I can understand the being in of the now instant but having it predetermined and just waiting for that part to catch up and pass by doesn't make much sense.If everything exists at once is it our 3D brains that limit what we can see at any one time? And where do multi or higher dimensions fit in?

Also if actions we create form new pathways or timelines amongst the infinite that already exist, if I in simple terms go left instead of right does that mean the whole world also turns left on this new path? If some turned right would they filter out of my viewpoint? If so would we all have memories of people fluttering through in and out of our lives and wondering what happened to them when inevitably we make a different decision?

I love topics such as this, but as I age they quickly render my rational thinking to mush. The complex ideals no longer make any sense to me which is a shame.

I got that feeling it from it too, Craig, and don't particularly agree with the direction he takes it. I like the idea it is predetermined in the sense that everything leading up to present made the moment what it is....the trick to me is how complex (or perhaps simple, just hard to grasp) it is that free will somhow fits it in to it.

I particularly don't believe in time travel like lots of folks here seem, in the sense of a being somehow literally transporting back in time. Maybe being able to peer in the past, but if there are time travelers going back and somehow effecting it, then it would be transparent to us...so if it was happening (at some point people discover the ability to do it) then I think it would be constant, there would be no noticeable effect to us, the changes they made happened so whatever was originally never did…

I dunno, I don’t think it’s a problem with your mind—I think it’s the idea of time travel that doesn’t make much sense. And in a linear-time-based existence, it is hard to reconcile true free will into the mix.

[chocolate]

For me everything is simple, if you decide to use only words that you truly understand.
I am a bit fed up with people using words based on the meaning someone else had put into those words like: 'all that is is energy' or 'all that is is frequency' or 'karma', even 'free will' or time for that matter.
Once you can have a good definition of what all those words mean to you, than there is a good base for conversation/discussion. Otherwise it is just spinning the wheel in one direction or another without full understanding why you are spinning it and what will happen at the end.

Nothing to do with the previous posts, just expanding on my previous thought.

Donk, if you haven't seen "Fringe" TV series I think you might like it. It doesn't have a short answer for anything, but it can give you some clues for further investigation regarding time travel, time lines, parallel universes etc. Besides, you already know all there is to know about it, just your current human mind is struggling with the ideas.
I liked the blog with the sketch you posted some few posts above.

I am really looking forward a good discussion here.
I don't know all the answers, and I don't want to have them since I realized I enjoy the progress, or the journey, more than the final destination.

[korgh]

Posted by Craig (here)
In regards to Donk's post quoting from the blog, am I correct to think that it boils down to being like a movie? Where we are just going along without the ability to fast forward to see what happens? I think I can understand the being in of the now instant but having it predetermined and just waiting for that part to catch up and pass by doesn't make much sense.

If everything exists at once is it our 3D brains that limit what we can see at any one time? And where do multi or higher dimensions fit in?

Also if actions we create form new pathways or timelines amongst the infinite that already exist, if I in simple terms go left instead of right does that mean the whole world also turns left on this new path? If some turned right would they filter out of my viewpoint? If so would we all have memories of people fluttering through in and out of our lives and wondering what happened to them when inevitably we make a different decision?

I love topics such as this, but as I age they quickly render my rational thinking to mush. The complex ideals no longer make any sense to me which is a shame.

Well , I will try to clarify two issues that are important , according to my point of view and some notion about all this :

" Also if actions we create new pathways form or timelines amongst the infinite que already exist , in simple terms if I go left instead of right does that mean the whole world turns left Also on this new path ? If some turned right They would filter October of my viewpoint ? "

Each action performed results in a change of the dynamic timeline and create new branches " in your own timeline " which in turn will interact with another timeline to respond as a reaction of this action . Then everything changes dynamically and the original concept has changed. The same happens around and you react after an external action from someone else .

"If only we would all have memories of people through fluttering in and out of our lives and wondering what happened to Them When Inevitably we make a different decision ? "

Again , action performed results in a change of the dynamic timeline and create new branches " in your own timeline " which in turn will interact with another timeline to respond as a reaction of this action .
Here is effect the action / reaction . It's like throwing a stone in the lake : the smaller resulting waves will goes back and forth .

I'm not a physicist.. I'm just a observer with a curious spirit.

These actions need not to be physical. A thought may lead to different behavior or a word may result in a catastrophic situation.
In my opinion, the big master key of the confusion is the word "IF".
IF I had donein different way .. IF I had not thought like this ... IF I had not heard that ...
All possibilities exists and all is changeable.

[chocolate]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=YRG4H7j6qgI

[dsldog]

Posted by Alien Ramone (here)

Posted by dsldog (here)
naste.de.lumina,

"The Wheeler–Feynman absorber theory (also called the Wheeler–Feynman time-symmetric theory) is an interpretation of electrodynamics derived from the assumption that the solutions of the electromagnetic field equations must be invariant under time-reversal symmetry, as are the field equations themselves. Indeed, there is no apparent reason for the time-reversal symmetry breaking which singles out a preferential time direction and thus makes a distinction between past and future. A time-reversal invariant theory is more logical and elegant."

>> I'll try and fill it in a little later. There was this guy, Maxwell, who formalized
the theory of electromagnetism in such a way that the interactions were characterized by both and advance or forward wave and a retarded or reversed
one. Turns out the best way to understand the interaction is that the waves
travel forwards and backwards in time. Feynman, who thought it up was never
quite comfortable with the idea. Wonder why? <<

Thanks. I've listened to Feyman's CD set of lectures on physics and learned about Maxwell's equations on "The Mechanical Universe" DVD set, but I don't remember hearing about the time-symmetric theories. With these kinds of answers I'm picking up bits and pieces of information and clues that I didn't know about before.

You may also want to research the work of Hugh Everett (Many Wolds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics). If you are not already familiar. He was pretty much ignored when his work was published. These days he is embraced by the likes of Tegmark and such. --jc