Polish citizens lose 48.74B USD pension money

[Bartek]

Hello everyone!
Here is some information from Poland about how everyone here got just robbed by our own government.

Whole issue is about Zakład Ubezbieczeń Społecznych, commonly referred to as ZUS. ZUS is a state organization established in 1934, responsible for social insurance matters.

To give you some background, current pension system in Poland was introduced in 1999 (Jerzy Buzek was prime minister) and is based on 3 pillars:

a) mandatory - based on ZUS, basically this org takes a part of person's monthly income (based on how much a person earns) and "stores" it for future pension - stores virtually, because in reality money are being paid right back to people who at the moment already are entitled to a pension
b) mandatory - based on non state funds (called Otwarty Fundusz Emerytalny, OFE) which also get a part of monthly income, but do not pay anyone; instead money managed by these funds are being invested, depending of a given fund's strategy (usually very calm and safe financial instruments)
c) optional - based on individual pension funds (also non state), sort of similar to other savings but much longer in terms of time-range; in order to participate, a person needs to open special account in a chosen fund and makes payments freely

So what is the fuss? In 1999 we as citizens were told that now we are so nicely served because our money will be guaranteed by the state (ZUS) and also invested by dedicated companies (OFE) - so our pensions will be high. Then if we want to be even safer, we can use the 3rd pillar and make additional savings. Back then sounded kinda nice .

Thing is that ZUS is broke. And I mean really broke. According to some reports[1], in 2014 ZUS will have a deficit of 21.34B USD - in one year only! Why? There are various reasons, a material for a separate thread, but to point some obvious:
1) ZUS is terribly managed - their operating costs in 2011 were around 2,2% (around 1.27B USD)[2] of all money they managed (for example in Sweden it is 0,8%[3])
2) ZUS basically functions as a Ponzi scheme - in order for people to get money out, there has to be more people to put money inside it. In reality, according to OECD.org report (sorry can't provide direct link, quoting from article [1]) at the moment for every 100 employed Polish citizens, there is 18 on pension (meaning that these 100 need to earn for pensions of those 18); in 20 years it will be 100 working for 35, and in 2060 its estimated 100 working for 65 - you know what I mean.
3) We have dramatic demographics in Poland - people either don't have kids or have just one because they simply cannot afford to have more - plus it is estimated that ~1.7 million Polish citizens emigrated to other EU states after laws regarding working there have been relaxed (recent comments from British prime minister should ring a bell)

So to sum it up, we have a state organization which can't do what it is supposed to do. What do our politicians do to resolve it? Yes you got it right - a bailout.

They made a law - took money which people already stored in OFE and forced it back to ZUS, to fuel this dying institution. Starting 3rd Feb, 14:00 CET all OFEs began transferring money to ZUS. In total it is 48.74B USD. Money which will never be seen again by people who earned them.

[1] http://biznes.onet.pl/dziura-w-zus-i...553,news-detal
[2] http://www.sejm.gov.pl/sejm7.nsf/Int...p?key=70EC10D3
[3] http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zak%C5%...h#cite_note-36

PS. This is my first thread ever on Avalon. I tried to make it as informative and documented as possible, although on the other hand I don't want to make it bloated . One thing I am not sure of: is this sort of information interesting for you guys? If so, I'll do my best in case of any questions + any other feedback is more than welcome.

[Czarek]

So in September of 2013, polish government took half of people's pensions to ease off the debt load as reported by Zero hedge
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...eign-debt-load

and now this! Wow!

[Flash]

Welcome to Avalon

Your description sounds pretty much like most of the retirement funds in North America, all broke

If you followed our example in Poland, there is no way the pension funds will not get broke

[meeradas]

look anywhere, you'll find similar

[Sabrina]

Hi Bartek, Yes many thanks it is interesting indeed. I've got Polish relatives. Part of the whole dysfunctional money scam which hopefully will change before too long. There's probably no real money in any pension pot anywhere nowadays (even in the bankers' portfolios - unless they've moved it under their beds..)…

[Mulder]

Wow, people in Poland better get fit so they can work 'till they die. Gos knows we're all in the same boat - SS Titanic of Pension Funds! Except the Titanic did hit the bottom, but the banker's frauds are endless!

[Theseus]

Wow..... That made my heart sink a little bit. Imagine you working your whole life knowing it was going to take care of you.. That pay off at the end for all that damn slaving. And they steal it.. Just stole it from them.
This is the third time this week im finding myself saying this.. Im ashamed to be a human, it blows me away everytime im in complete disbelief that i share the same blood as these people. I cannot wrap my head around what can make someone.. not only steal millions of peoples hard earned money but their dreams too.. Their kids future, What will they inherit now? their parents debt...
Watch the birth of a larger drug culture begin..i bet you that drug dealing will increase 300% and drug use probably in the next few years as the depression sets in... they dont understand that they are stealing more than just money..
This kinda stuff really just.... Ugh. (witholds negative comments further)

[jackovesk]

Geez - Haven't the Pols suffered enough over the years...

PS - Big (Shout Out) to all the (Hard-Core) Polish Speedway Fans...


Remember this guy..? (Watch this)...

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=F7rF097UOkM

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

Cheer up Bartek

That money initially "extorted" by OFEs were meant to vapor away from the very beginning... I can tell it by statutes introducing OFEs, lacking any guideline for who will pay out the pensions: OFEs or ZUS? Also OFEs were on provision based on money collected (max 3,5% per pensioner per month)

I have no delusion i will have any decent pension when i retire (if things stay the way they are). ~30 years to go ...if the retirement age will not be raised again.

To stop "donating" to ZUS Ponzi scheme (now "obligatory" under the Polish Constitution) there is no other way but to change the Constitution itself. Only Representatives (20% of all), Senate or President can submit a Constitution change proposition in Poland. No word on general referendum or citizens' legislative initiative. One would need to run for Office independently. Which is suicide in most of countries imho. There were many brilliant promises made before each elections. There are three possible explanations for them not being held:
1) they were empty from the begging just to win votes (there is no obligation or responsibility for empty promises made under the Polish Constitution)
2) every attempt at fulfilling them was obstructed from every side
3) after winning the office an "orientation" message has been delivered to the winner from the cabal (yeah, call me paranoid )

It still CAN BE DONE. But it requires to go out to the streets and start talking to people. No violence is required. But plenty of footwork is. And the plan has to be well though through, sincere and pro publico bono. And the people you are going to co-work with are not "snakes in suits" (the hardest part of it)

Posted by jackovesk (here)
Geez - Haven't the Pols suffered enough over the years...(...)

Apparently we deserve it. Even praise it as we are raised in victim consciousness from the cradle... All past maladies are cherished, "not forgettable" and "not forgiven" we all live in the past or "before the war" or "before the partitions"... Nothing will improve until this remembrance of national plagues ends... (It's unseemly to think like that in Poland )

[Rollo]

I wonder how long Poles will wait to do something about their situation.
Politicians/government are really law in rankings in Poland.
This is a sign of truth about them and their dealings coming to surface.

Sadly the same situation is almost in every country.

[Robert J. Niewiadomski]

This may sound crazy and (apparently) off-topic or contradictory in part to my previous post in this thread but i think it's really sound. It is generally based upon this concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

"The Caesar" nowdays is any "system" dealing the cards. It is a soulless machine. You can treat it as an unavoidable nuisance (for now) and focus on your spiritual development ...or you could make a big issue out of "the system" and try to vanquish it. In the first approach "the system" should "automagically" dissolve itself giving way to something more perfect the more perfect that spiritual development goes. In the second approach it will consume you whole and if you "vanquish the system" you will become a new system as evil as the previous one. Look at all the political revolutions in past Earth's societies done with any amount of violence or duality. They all replaced the old system and became the new evil. Back and forth in vicious cycle... To end the system we have to pay as little attention to it as we can. It's hard to do i know

EDIT:
It can be done too. The good start is to stop following msm feed...

[Bartek]

Thank you everyone for reading and expressing your feedback. I am really grateful .

Posted by Robert J. Niewiadomski (here)
No word on general referendum or citizens' legislative initiative.

Posted by Rollo (here)
I wonder how long Poles will wait to do something about their situation.

Well, let me give you this example - there is approximately 38M Polish citizens. The current government is in charge since 2007 - second term at the moment. The party behind the government is Civic Platform[1]. They were established in 2001, had first success in the EU parliament elections, but in my opinion what made top for them was a huge national campaign started in 2004[2], called 4 razy tak (4x yes). What this was about? They were gathering signatures under a call for referendum regarding constitutional changes about four really important issues:
- Remove parliamentary immunity[3] for parliament members
- Liquidation of Senat - an upper house in our bicameral legislature
- Lowering the amount of representatives in the lower house (Sejm[4]) from 460 to 230
- Introducing single-member district for elections to the lower house

Now to have at least the last one done would allow us to have way more pressure on the legislation in my opinion.

In order to make this referendum happen, the Civic Platform needed 100 000 signatures. They managed to gather almost 1 million instead. Sounds nice.

Guess what happened. When all these signatures made their way (nicely packed) to the lower house, at first they were just stored, nothing happened. Civic Platform won elections, got their government. All those gathered signatures went through a paper shredder. There is a documentary about this, called "Władcy Marionetek" by a journalist Tomasz Sekielski.

So it is not that people are not aware of a big need for change. But you can not move forward if the other side does not follow the rules. What do you think would happen in any country starting from Germany and going west, if politicians would grind 1 million of votes supporting something? I wonder if Avalon members from western countries can even imagine this . Yet, it is our reality here in Poland, and our politicians at the moment dare to lecture Ukrainians about democracy.

Best regards,
Bartek.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Platform
[2] http://www.money.pl/gospodarka/wiado...8,0,65252.html
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_immunity
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejm