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Thread: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

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    Default What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    i have discussion with a mate about it and he said is the same thing but communism more extreme while i considered socialism is refer to economics side rather than consist of both economics and politics like communism.

    alot of people include in this forums bashing socialism, at family parties hearing family members who have experience thought Communism discussing about the ideology which they considered it's fantasy. One thing pop up to mind is contactee especially with Alex Collier who telling us about Andromeda society where they work collectivity, social ownership of resources and asset which nobody own anything.

    i consider problem is not the system but the problem is human nature with egos, if we get rid of our egos then socialism or what ever ISM iyou want to called it including New World Order will work.

    i still believe for socialism to work you need advancement in spirituality in which many of society like Andromeda is utopia society .
    Last edited by apokalypse; 9th February 2014 at 23:20.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    no economic model is perfect and i have researched communism / capitalism and socialism. here is my conclusion of the economical models
    In capitalism we have whats called a free market where anyone can create a company/ product and sell it to the customers. companies are always competing with each other in terms of customers and employees and in theory this will produce the best and most competitive scene where every party in the population wins. However if you look more into capitalism it has some severe flaws where unfortunately the free market does not work. The winners"Big corporations" hide under capitalism laws while they enforce laws on the people. I will give you an example. for example the Big ISP are actually not competing and in reality they are fighting for the same thing. The big ISP come together and pass laws regarding net neutrality because they can. in theory these companies should be competing but they arent really and the biggest losers are us the consumers.
    in socialism government has much bigger rule in the companies actions and well fare. in theory this model tries to protect consumers and the employers by placing strict rules in company and new businesses. this model works better in smaller populations and with countries with strict border protection and countries with population that prefers nationalism. some successful countries have socialistic values to them like Germany. In Germany every student college is paid for by the government as long as they get good grades. compared to the United states where you have to be the top 5% in most universities to get scholarships. However the economic model of socialism has some huge problems. for example it is slower to change in some regards because of multiple rules and regulations. this is a huge problem specially for a booming population because jobs are not created as fast. the start-up scene in socialist countries is much lower than compared to countries like USA.
    communism on the other hand is the extreme version of socialism. almost everything is controlled from the government. this of course has its upsides and downsides. if the politicians are fighting for the good of the people they will do the "right" thing but most often they are not. in theory the communism model should work best but in practice it runs horribly because people abuse their powers .

    this is my understand of the 3 big economic models. if i made some mistakes i hope someone corrects it.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Quote Posted by apokalypse (here)
    i still believe for socialism to work you need advancement in spirituality in which many of society like Andromeda is utopia society .
    For civilization to work, you do need advancement in spirituality. Civilization needs not only good, fair, efficient and effective government, but a society that is educated and enlightened. No "-ism" is going to save us - it is important to understand all the "-isms" and their pros and cons, but realize that good government is a balance of things - it must recognize that too much government can smother an individual, but also, that no man is an island and we all do need it to be there to support each other, and that this does not always happen in laissez faire caplitalism.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    This is a famous quote regarding the distribution of wealth. "To each according to their need--- From each according to their ability."

    Ask people who said it and you will get amazing answers. Some suggest Jesus, Others suggest Buddha, Allah and other revered figures.

    However it was Karl Marx, and that is what underlies the idea of Socialism/Communism. I like that idea and I don't think it also underlies the idea of Capitalism.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Socialism is government running everything and everyone has the same crumbs, no one is allowed to succeed and better themselves , communism is one person runs everything and anyone that disagrees is killed , to put fear in others to keep them in control ...
    Raiding the Matrix One Mind at a Time ...

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Capitalism has more to do with the manipulation of the value of capital than with free market. Sure, a free market is the base on which capitalism operates, but it is not the sole property of the capitalists. The others have it too.

    Socialism places the welfare society ahead of the individual, so you get free education and medical treatment for all. Things like that. Also places controls on pollution and conservation and other things like that which can't look after themselves.

    Free enterprise is very individualistic - You succeed or fail as you do and if you're down no one is bothered to get you up again.

    Communism is where everything belongs to the state and everyone works for the state. In theory. In practice it is a capitalism where the state owns everything and the individuals are slaves.


    There is no "perfect system" which will cover up human imperfections.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    It's a good question Give the huge volume of literature on these subjects I think it is possible to create a thousand definitions and sub-definitions.

    Broadly speaking, socialism aims to ensure equality and welfare for all people in society, this is quite natural since humans are social creatures. As I have pointed out on this forum numerous times, the fact that socialism has become a dirty word is an indictment of western morality. And; shock horror, since wealth is required for basic needs and rights, socialism does concern itself with managing wealth.


    Socialism achieves its goals by providing a regulatory framework, for example, that protects from exploitation people who have nothing to sell but their labour (the labour movement). It also seeks to guarantee access to education for all regardless of personal wealth, as well as health care, housing etc etc. Due to the mechanics of the socialist system the distribution of wealth is indeed prevented from becoming too heterogeneous. However it's important to remember the goal is not really about 'money' itself [capitalists often associate it with theft], it is about fairness and humanity (this is an ideology, after all). It just so happens that if all the money ends up in a few people's pockets, there is obviously not enough available elsewhere to fund hospitals and so on.



    I don't argue with the above comments (edit: just saw Leon's post, you said it well ), but beyond the idea that communism is a more extreme version of socialism [how can you give someone more health care than they need?], I think it's worth pointing out that communism (and marxism) have specific designs on the very concept of ownership that do not necessarily exist under a socialist doctrine (although some of them might).

    A very wise old teach once gave us a very brief definition of socialism, marxism and communism - which I will try and paraphrase as I don't remember his exact words.

    Socialism: A society, supported by social legislation, where people help each other out so that no one falls by the wayside, in contrast to a society where people selfishly just look after themselves (capitalism).

    Marxism: the state (which is really nothing more than the collective embodiment of the people) owns basically everything [really 'the people' own everything], but the state does not own the people.

    Communism: the state owns basically everything including the people.


    The objectives of all three 'systems' are really the same, however, under those guidelines (and you can argue against them being correct, especially the last one ), communism dictates a far greater level of state control than does socialism. You could alternatively phrase it that the individual loses the ability to exploit ownership to their benefit. An extreme example of the state 'owning people' would be if the society needs more aluminum to build buses, and you happen to be skilled at refining aluminum - then you will be 'given' a job at the refinery. Many socialists would object to this as it impinges on the freedom of the individual too greatly. However, as I said it is an extreme example and not one that necessarily represents what broadly happens in communist countries.
    Last edited by Tesseract; 10th February 2014 at 01:09.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Quote Posted by ghostrider (here)
    Socialism is government running everything and everyone has the same crumbs, no one is allowed to succeed and better themselves , communism is one person runs everything and anyone that disagrees is killed , to put fear in others to keep them in control ...
    ghostrider i respect you alot but im afraid this is not entirely true. there are alot of countries with socialistic economies that are run great and have great and happy individuals. infact it is in most socalisim countries that you get free education and subsidized healthcare.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    It is said that communism is the absolute best form of government...for all the above described reasons...
    you should Google its description. Quite nice it sounds..

    .....the problem is in almost all cases....communism is eventually exploited by a dictator...who then controls everything...right, wrong or indifferent

    This has been stated in similar words ...so my wording may be a bit different...but the effect the same,.

    I find that what is propagandized as 'freedom' in a capitalist society is not exactly freedom...nor is it close. If you have 'money' or wealth...you can do things somewhat as you like...but if you have never had money....your chances are slim to none of ever amounting to much.... and are are fodder to the 'control' freaks
    .If you become disabled (regardless of the whos fault)...no one is going to help you unless you got tha money honey.

    Its more of a 'chew you up and spit you out' arrangement... use you for whatever makes others money, but if that ends ...and if the elite had their 'druthers'...it would be 'off with the heads' of the 'useless eaters' so it wont negatively affect their 'bottom line'

    ....yeah there are those that have pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and 'made it' to the top... but a lot of those were lifted on the exploited backs of others

    I dunno...I haven't seen any real good 'izms' to date.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    There are definitions by various people that change the flavor of the answer.

    The closest thing I ever heard of as a real working model of communism is a convent, but they don't quite make it to communism either, because there is a "mother superior." Real (theoretical) communism should be that "the state" owns everything, all citizens are members of the state, and so all members of the society own and equally share everything. There is no private ownership, and no hierarchical government. Contrast that with the totalitarian regimes in China, North Korea, the old USSR... none of those were (or are) actually communist countries - though they might not permit citizens private ownership of anything, and strive to equalize housing and goods to make it appear egalitarian.

    Socialism - at least modern socialist thinking from a lot of socialists - would be a society where a great deal of the resources would be co-owned by the members of the state. In practical terms, it would be resource pooling and shared assets and liabilities for most resources, but not for private property. Under this concept, resources such as roads (building, maintenance, plowing), bridges, sewage treatment, potable water purification and delivery, ports, parks, public buildings, schools, fire departments and police departments, prisons...etc. would be owned by everyone (not allowed to be privatized), and resources (money/taxes) would be pooled to maintain those services and infrastructure. Up until recently, this is what had been the policy in the US, but now, more and more, roads and bridges and ports and prisons are being sold by the crooked government to the highest bidder (often foreign) and privatized - with no permission from the citizens that co-owned those assets, and no compensation given to citizens when these assets are stolen and sold-off. In my opinion, it would have been a step in the right direction if medicine and banking became socialized, but we have certainly gone the opposite direction.

    Socialism does not prohibit private ownership, nor does it strive to make people uniform/homogenous. Those are myths perpetrated by some capitalists that fear ANY socialism.

    One example of collectivism/cooperative versus capitalist business ownership model:

    Imagine five plumbers, all independent contractors.

    In communism, they might be assigned to move to various areas where plumbers are needed, they would not own their tools, and the proceeds from completed jobs would go to the state - to be pooled and used with all other income funds, and (theoretically) equally disbursed among all members of society. In my mind, communism might work in a commune, but not a lot of people in a society would actually want a lowest-common-denominator style of governance, even if the aim was egalitarian.

    In socialism, the five plumbers might decide to form a cooperative business. All 5 would equally own the business, all 5 would accept 1/5 of the liability, and accept 1/5 of the profits. They would each go to their homes (that they bought, with their own profits), own their own car, their own toothbrush, and their own guitar. (In a socialist society, pooled resources would be used to provide food and shelter for those unable or even unwilling to work - but it would not be an attempt to equalize everyone in society. Those who work harder would have more.) In my mind, socialism is about cooperation, and compassion.

    In capitalism, if the 5 plumbers actually did end up in one company, there could be a partnership, but most likely, one of the plumbers (with the most savings, or best credit rating, or the most business savvy) would probably announce that they are hiring, and would hope to get all 4 of the other 4 good plumbers in the area to work for him. He would likely take the largest (initial) financial risk, and for that, he would reward himself with the lion's share of the profits (as much as he could get away with), and would pay the other 4 plumbers the very least possible - just enough to keep them in his employment and not out competing with him. Ray Croc (the founder of McDonald's) said "If my competitor were drowning I'd stick a hose in his mouth and turn on the water." In my mind, capitalism is about competition.

    Dennis


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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Hey thanks Dennis! You made things very clear there for me. I have to confess to having only vague understandings of the differences -- certainly not enough to inspire the courage to enter an intelligent discussion on it. Appreciate this simple explanation.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    There are definitions by various people that change the flavor of the answer.
    Socialism - at least modern socialist thinking from a lot of socialists - would be a society where a great deal of the resources would be co-owned by the members of the state. In practical terms, it would be resource pooling and shared assets and liabilities for most resources, but not for private property. Under this concept, resources such as roads (building, maintenance, plowing), bridges, sewage treatment, potable water purification and delivery, ports, parks, public buildings, schools, fire departments and police departments, prisons...etc. would be owned by everyone (not allowed to be privatized), and resources (money/taxes) would be pooled to maintain those services and infrastructure. Up until recently, this is what had been the policy in the US, but now, more and more, roads and bridges and ports and prisons are being sold by the crooked government to the highest bidder (often foreign) and privatized - with no permission from the citizens that co-owned those assets, and no compensation given to citizens when these assets are stolen and sold-off. In my opinion, it would have been a step in the right direction if medicine and banking became socialized, but we have certainly gone the opposite direction.
    thanks Dennis and posters for clearing it up! that is what on my mind for over year now, infrastructure and resource must own by public especially banks and financial institution.

    Quote The U.S. Postal Service ended the year with a $354 million loss, marking the 19th quarter of losses out of the last 21.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-mail/5287211/
    when i read stuff like that article about losses one question pop up in my head is why and where the losses goes to? right now more and more asset have privatize, in Australia there's a rumor going around Government going to privatize Student Loan which going to make tougher.

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    A "free market" is just that, free..

    I dont support any Federal (centralized, national government) socialist programs.

    A free market allows for socialism....... why not just create socialized systems in your community?
    In a free market if you want something it is up to you....so create it..
    ~~ In wonderment I bow to the Cosmos ~~

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Quote Posted by pumashared (here)
    Quote Posted by ghostrider (here)
    Socialism is government running everything and everyone has the same crumbs, no one is allowed to succeed and better themselves , communism is one person runs everything and anyone that disagrees is killed , to put fear in others to keep them in control ...
    ghostrider i respect you alot but im afraid this is not entirely true. there are alot of countries with socialistic economies that are run great and have great and happy individuals. infact it is in most socalisim countries that you get free education and subsidized healthcare.
    I live in what you could call a socialist country, or socialist EU to be more precise and I agree with Ghostrider and his views. I guess it all depends on what you call education and healthcare. Kids are getting dumber and healtcare is run by the corrupt polliticians and big pharma.

    The thing about the nazi's most people forget is that they were not only nationalists but National SOCIALISTS.

    My view is that government should be small and people should be responsible for themselves. I am for a sort of 'socialist model' but without the government, but where people work together to make a better world on a small scale. Once we all do that we don't need big government.
    Last edited by Midnight Rambler; 10th February 2014 at 09:18. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    socialism in its purest form is not bad (but which political movement in its initial form remains pure after being compromised?)- I live in a so-called Socialist State (Germany) where, for example, on the surface medical care is available to all where the poorer pay less premiums than the richer and all receive the same benefits/care in the State-run system/State-sponsored medical insurance companies; however: there are the private/corporate-owned medical insurance companies (capitalism) who cover even more treatments (even some homeopathy- or used to) than the State-sponsored but they charge the juciest premiums and their premiums can be hiked at any time (there is some supposed State regulation on this but it seems to be weaker than desired)-

    my point: I think all of this money flows into the same coffers at the end of the day and the "socialist" State of Germany was compromised the minute the West financed its reconstruction after WWII-

    there is no difference between socialism/communism/Nazi-ism/corporatism; just different masks on the same face, different labels for the same thing-

    now add the concept of 'democracy' to this seething pan-political cauldron- but we won't go there today...

    please stay well all-

    Larry

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Quote Posted by Ellisa (here)
    This is a famous quote regarding the distribution of wealth. "To each according to their need--- From each according to their ability."

    Ask people who said it and you will get amazing answers. Some suggest Jesus, Others suggest Buddha, Allah and other revered figures.

    However it was Karl Marx, and that is what underlies the idea of Socialism/Communism. I like that idea and I don't think it also underlies the idea of Capitalism.
    Except: who determines what ability and need are?

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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Guys, in this discussion something is missing that needs to be included, and in fact may have been mis-interpreted as socialism when in fact it's what could be better called a mixed economy, or interventionism. Namely, what I would assert that 80-90% of Western-style governments actually are. These are societies where the government regulates controls over money, industry, and now I wonder about political opinion and democracy here (?) and as such, give the idea of a democratic capitalist society when in fact they are far closer to what a socialist/communist society would be. Believe it or not, I think that right now the United States and Canada are far closer to mixed economy/interventionist types of government than capitalist or socialist. Here's why: one of the biggest philosophical straw men to come up in the last decade is the idea of the 99% vs the 1%. This, I believe, is a straw man because the masses, namely you me and joe tax payer are meant to think/believe we live in a capitalist society, when in fact many of us have very socialist ideas that conflict with what the government tells us to be true, namely we have a right to this and a right to that. The government who has been creating these controls at the behest of corporations that naturally want to make money, but in a truly capitalist society would have to create a superior product to get our money to make that profit, instead only have to pay certain people to bend regulations in their favor to make money. Hence, one example would be how a corporation could release hardware or software that does not function properly without constant updates, or simply breaks down before it even starts to work (Anyone get a playstation 4 lately?).

    True capitalism doesn't rule out the idea of socially dependant individuals. It creates circumstances where people can be taken care of that require it, but it also justifies the power of employment and self determination where socialism in fact does create a greater amount of back doors. This will not be a popular statement to many people, but it is none the less true. I am aware personally of at least six people in my social circle over the past 20 years who have been able to use the welfare system to not only get a home for themselves, but to furnish that home, and to collect income from renters who should, by the rules, not be able to rent because of the regulation of government housing...ie: if you're on assistance, you don't get people to rent out a room from you for added income. I've met individuals who have had university educations paid in full because they were able to go to a doctor and claim they were suicidal, only a few months later then be able to say they felt a change in education would help them emotionally. This is not to say there are individuals that need the help provided by the system. My dad's family lived through the great depression here in Saskatchewan. This could be argued as the place were modern Canadian socialism was born, where people on one side of the country who had excess food sent it by train out west for people who couldn't eat. You worked where you could, doing what you could, and your neighbours helped you out not out of a sense of moral duty alone, but because your neighbours knew that one day they might need your help. True socialist values come from a healthy capitalist mentality.

    There are no true socialist countries today, and arguably no capitalist countries either.

    One final note. Communism is not the extreme end of socialism. That, my friend, is actually fascism. A lot of people assume that fascism is in fact a right-wing capitalist driven idea when in fact it is the extreme of radical socialist beliefs. Take a look through history at some of the "great" fascist states, look at the government policy and you'll be surprised to discover how similar National Socialist policy was to a lot of current socialist policy in western-style mixed economy countries today.

    Socialism can work provided it is balanced by a set of ethical beliefs agreed upon and participated in by every member of the social community without exception.
    Capitalism can work provided it is balanced by a set of ethical beliefs agreed upon and participated in by every member of the social community without exception.
    A Mixed Economy/Interventionism cannot work for the members of the society because in the long term, members of the society who have a capitalist centered ethic will conflict with those members of the society who have a socialist centered ethic. The only ones who win in this style of economy/system are those who set the controls, and those who pay those in control to set the controls in their favor. Is a revolution necessary? Absolutely it is. But we should be very cautious in determining how that revolution should end up looking like by looking back at how Marxist-driven revolutions always end in a worse-case situation that either dies as a communist society or becomes a highly class-driven imperialist system as seen in Maoist countries like China and North Korea.

    Read "Atlas Shrugged" for a good idea on a possible revolution. The people who think simply go on strike by no longer thinking, allow the system to completely collapse, and then come back to rebuild.

    Your milage may vary.

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  35. Link to Post #18
    United States Avalon Member Douglass's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Quote Posted by Midnight Rambler (here)
    Quote Posted by pumashared (here)
    Quote Posted by ghostrider (here)
    Socialism is government running everything and everyone has the same crumbs, no one is allowed to succeed and better themselves , communism is one person runs everything and anyone that disagrees is killed , to put fear in others to keep them in control ...
    ghostrider i respect you alot but im afraid this is not entirely true. there are alot of countries with socialistic economies that are run great and have great and happy individuals. infact it is in most socalisim countries that you get free education and subsidized healthcare.
    I live in what you could call a socialist country, or socialist EU to be more precise and I agree with Ghostrider and his views. I guess it all depends on what you call education and healthcare. Kids are getting dumber and healtcare is run by the corrupt polliticians and big pharma.

    The thing about the nazi's most people forget is that they were not only nationalists but National SOCIALISTS.

    My view is that government should be small and people should be responsible for themselves. I am for a sort of 'socialist model' but without the government, but where people work together to make a better world on a small scale. Once we all do that we don't need big government.
    Couldnt have said it better myself Mdnte Rmblr

    There is nothing about a free market and capitalism that says you cant create socialist or communal systems on your own.

    We do not need Big Government we need Big Individuals!
    We need educated people who accept the responsibility of themselves and communities.
    ~~ In wonderment I bow to the Cosmos ~~

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    Finland Avalon Member Arak's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Here in Finland we still live in somewhat socialistic "social democracy" - we have have free education (even at university level), healthcare, decent welfare, free roads and bridges and some free services (but also very many bonusses to corporations, if we only would not be so shy: http://www.businessinsider.com/finla...problem-2014-2). Everyone is taken care of and given same opportunities (in theory atleast). This is ofc very expensive system to maintain so our taxes are quite huge and that has not been problem until recently... Due globalisation our industry has been transfered to asia and people are losing jobs > no taxes = problems. I really dont know how much longer we can maintain our system this way. That is kinda sad. It used to rock.

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    Australia Avalon Member
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    Default Re: What's the Difference between Socialism and Communism?

    Quote Posted by Arak (here)
    Here in Finland we still live in somewhat socialistic "social democracy" - we have have free education (even at university level), healthcare, decent welfare, free roads and bridges and some free services (but also very many bonusses to corporations, if we only would not be so shy: http://www.businessinsider.com/finla...problem-2014-2). Everyone is taken care of and given same opportunities (in theory atleast). This is ofc very expensive system to maintain so our taxes are quite huge and that has not been problem until recently... Due globalisation our industry has been transfered to asia and people are losing jobs > no taxes = problems. I really dont know how much longer we can maintain our system this way. That is kinda sad. It used to rock.
    i think the system hijacked by capitalist-cartel(what ever you want to called it), i have a friend in denmark which considered to be socialist country where everything have been paid through high taxation just like what you mention about finland. I do think and believe countries like denmark or findland should be the model and ground based for testing...just hate the attacking on public sector, if doesn't work then get rid of it.

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