Overpopulated??? Truly???

[Shane]

If we cannot imagine a better way (solution) we will never find one. So at times letting go of preconceived notions we have of "why" and "how" something has become as it is can be valuable. Typically when people are approaching this topic, they are very much stuck in a certain train of thought (paradigm) that seems reasonable due to the current state of the world. If we would like to alter our path, we have to first imagine a way of acting on this planet that is.. Different. Not focus on how to maintain what is here now. What is here now, is the problem. The human animal is in a cycle caused by their desire to control the conditions of nature. Let go of the control and end the cycle. If we want to call ourselves animals we should adapt like an animal would. Alteration of the environment has been the mistake. Therefor doing more of that, will lead to the same outcome. (More of the same - rebirth of the same problems ). We have done it before, we can do it again, as soon as we forget the control of our imaginations and thoughts and remember what we are and always have been capable of. On any topics really, our desire to control others and/or nature is what is causing the cycles we are stuck in.


As much as some people here find these discussions "difficult" they are always fascinating to read. Thank you flash (for initiating) and all posting.

The world is overpopulated.. IF we want to keep our actions on this planet THE SAME as they currently are. If we are willing to change and adapt, the population being what it is does not HAVE to be unsustainable.

[Flash]

Posted by Shane (here)
If we cannot imagine a better way (solution) we will never find one. So at times letting go of preconceived notions we have of "why" and "how" something has become as it is can be valuable. Typically when people are approaching this topic, they are very much stuck in a certain train of thought (paradigm) that seems reasonable due to the current state of the world. If we would like to alter our path, we have to first imagine a way of acting on this planet that is.. Different. Not focus on how to maintain what is here now. What is here now, is the problem. The human animal is in a cycle caused by their desire to control the conditions of nature. Let go of the control and end the cycle. If we want to call ourselves animals we should adapt like an animal would. Alteration of the environment has been the mistake. Therefor doing more of that, will lead to the same outcome. (More of the same - rebirth of the same problems ). We have done it before, we can do it again, as soon as we forget the control of our imaginations and thoughts and remember what we are and always have been capable of. On any topics really, our desire to control others and/or nature is what is causing the cycles we are stuck in.


As much as some people here find these discussions "difficult" they are always fascinating to read. Thank you flash (for initiating) and all posting.

The world is overpopulated.. IF we want to keep our actions on this planet THE SAME as they currently are. If we are willing to change and adapt, the population being what it is does not HAVE to be unsustainable.

Thanks Shane. I agree, a change of thinking and behaving paradigm has to occur. And if we follow Finefeather drift, it should be accessible by most, in a smooth fashion. And yes, it may be through remembering who we are and stopping the thirst for control, within and without.

Therefore, we should imagine a way of acting on this planet that is different. Effectively, I agree.

Our talks now on could be to try to imagine ways of acting that are different, but not on the solution against GMO, or new énergies, which are great and will come in time, but on the says of changing our thinking and behaving paradigms "en mass", in and for the bulk of us.

Any ideas on changing paradigms, in a smooth fashion, experiences, history teaching us, anything????? Precise ideas concerning the heart, the brain, the values, the beliefs, the dream land, anything, taking into account the Cabal's blocks (ex, no access to mass media other than internet) etc.

Any idea about precise objectives to pursue in the above direction???

[Shane]

Changing this "en mass" is only possible if we start within ourselves.

Although I could post some ideas I have imagined I honestly don't believe that will benefit anyone so I will hold back in that.

The only suggestion I will make is just that.. Start within yourself. Change how YOU view the problems and solutions and how you anticipate the outcome. That would be the start of remembering history and the FACT that the "cabal" is NOT more powerful than you. Therefor taking them into account, will continue a cycle. (I trust you know me well enough not to take this a personal slight at all- certainly not my intention).

In my heart.. I believe if we can remember just that much.. The solution will have the opportunity to be found by our collective consciousness, by way of us all imagining something better. (By better I mean more efficient and sustainable).

As an example.. The "solution" of gmo food and products (ignoring any known or unknown health hazards that may - or may not - exist) is a "solution" for the current state of the world. Meaning, a world in which people over consume. A "different" approach could/would start with managing our personal consumption and our relationship with food. (I could give a long personal story of my own food consumption choices and the results but I will spare you ). This could result in humans consuming less quantity, because we require less quantity, then a focus on quality over quantity would be possible. Right now, we "need" GMO's in the minds of some because of our consumption rates, not because we cannot achieve quality, but because we require quantity. It may be possible to cut our quantity down to such an extent that we require much less space and resources to produce food. This could alleviate the burden on the environment and allow us to share with all humanity equally while still requiring less quantity than we do now. Not only can I imagine this as possible, I know, I remember, that it is.

Ultimately I think my reason for posting was to encourage thought even if you do not wish to engage in the discussion. As it seems some of us, at times, just give up, as the debate becomes skewed when we try to maintain current conditions.

So I say.. I choose to imagine a world that consumes less and turn that thought into an action by doing so myself and sharing with others how I achieved that. A world where the conditions are drastically different because we are living differently. I will take my own personal steps towards that, and when asked, encourage others to do the same. The end result in my imagination is a world that consumes less, respects nature more, and learns how to live within in, not against it. In that world, this planet could play host to a very large population.

How do I make that a reality for all? Straight up - I can't!

But.. I can imagine it. I can live it myself. I can hope we all choose something.. Different.. Better.. More efficient.. More sustainable.. More natural. More beautiful.

All this said.. My personal experiences and the gnosis of them allows me to "know" this is possible. Therefor it's all very easy for myself to say but it may not yet resonate with everyone. I am hoping that my imagining, the imagining of others, will cause a change in this reality.

[Milneman]

Posted by Etherios (here)

Posted by pugwash84 (here)
That video was so wonderful, I was so happy when he got his bike. Everyone cheered it was so sweet. Thank you xxxxx

Wonderful? Really? I hope you are joking ...

All these nice words and slow gently talking must have made you loose focus.

The solution isnt for the west to become like the east ... making the hole planet a farm plantation isnt going to change global warming.

There were so many lies in that video and so many wrong explanations that i was pissed by the half of it ...

Societies reduce the amount of children as they become more westernized (cant think of a better word atm sorry). If we want teh east to reduce its population just raise the standard of living and they will stop making so many kids. ALL animals that live in harsh environment make more children so they have more chances of survival.

You cant have the west living with "economic Growth" as its king and then tell the west people to reduce their spending ... WE ARE BEING TRAINED to use/spend more by the same people that now tell us we destroy the planet ... SO please wake up ... When the companies stop making products that break so easily (At 1940 german cars were so good that you can still drive some of them even now ... 2012 german cars break after 4-5 years TOPS.) Why we need new cellphones or pcs or laptops or what ever ... each year? Iphone 3 to 4 had so little changes that it was OBVIOUSLY a scam. Intel CPUs are EXACTLY the same on each series ... so the I7 is 1 CPU and they just unlock / boost parts of it and sell it as new product ... the examples are so many.

HUMANS beings are not born like this ... we are trained/educate like this.

Its so easy to change the planet and to become in very very few years so much better ... DELETE the growth goals and start making PROPER useable products ... a human being doesnt spend that much energy to live ... 70% of the spend energy is used to create what he is TOLD to buy and consume. Example ... 1 cellphone per 5-10 years ... not 1 per 1-2 years ... thats IMMEDIATELY reducing the energy spend to make/transport/store/buy/use/throw by 4-5 times. 1 car every 10-15 years not 1 every 2-3 etc etc etc ...

Do you know why we dont do the above? "Economic Growth" numbers ... if they let us do the above their hole economic scam will crumble and die.

So as are training us atm ... taking hot baths and using the radiator to warm up is the problem. Wake up ...

bah pointless i think ...

I agree.

Make more gay babies.

That's one thing you can do.

[Finefeather]

Posted by Flash (here)
Furthermore, the dark forces seem to have taken a good stride in front of us regarding their own evolution, jeopardizing at the same time the survival of the humans on this planet by rendering it pretty much unlivable with pollution etc and mostly hard to evolve on it.

Therefore, if we do not do something, dire situation already showing it ugly head may fall on us, all of us, in this human body.

On one hand, we have to go slow, on the other hand time and further evolution restrictions may fall on us soon. So what are we to do, it looks like a catch 22.

This is why deep reflection may have to take place on the better means to use to awaken and push out of inertia the population at large, A deep reflection may truly be needed on that topic.

These are deep sombre words which you utter...affording little hope for the controlled masses...but there is a brighter side to this...although unseen my many who see only darkness and despair.

Before we can clean up the rivers and cultivate chemical free food and bring brighter skies to our world and see our children play without fear of hurt, we need to bring down those systems of corruption which have been around for 1000s of years.

We need to therefore bring forth the knowledge of truth...and this knowledge of truth can only come from people like you and I and forums like Avalon. This means a greater sense of responsibility and a greater need for non sensational approaches to topics which cause conflict amongst our own families and friends and brothers and sisters and cities and nations.

Today in almost every major country in the world we see mass upheavals, and unrest, where the people are beginning to show some resistance to old outdated hierarchies which have ruled the world. Some see much of this as a manipulated dual between two 'evils' but the real show is just beginning...because these upheavals and desperate longings for peace will soon begin to reap success...and the very people who's sinister motives started many of these upheavals will be surprised and beaten by their own game.

These are the Archons of the Nag Hammadi...and the Satanists of the Bible...and the Dark Brothers of our very Human Race.

This age of Aquarius...which is now only beginning...brings with it new and dedicated rays of a different quality...from forces and Beings who's sole purpose is to awaken the heart to Unity, and to galvanise the Will to a higher purpose.

The effect of this has not even begun to be seen yet...for the power and the love that resided in higher realms is unchallenged by the meagre doings of those on this planet who can only but dream of being in persistent power and control over a race of Beings...The Human Being... who is driven and guided by forces which make the Archons/Satanists/Dark Brothers of this world just a mere drop in the ocean.

Then we also forget about another truly great Divine force and so we hide and run in fear. It is the very Laws of Life and of Nature itself who is ever by our side...because there is no greater force than these laws. The Archons/Satanists/Dark Brothers of the planet try to divert and overcome nature, and these laws of life, in every way they can for their own benefit...and it will be these very laws who will stand firm. The laws of life and the laws of nature are the laws on which this Cosmos is built and run...failure to live by these laws can only be a temporary diversion by those who are ignorant of it and attempt to fight it's true nature...they will fail.

Take care and much Love to all
Ray

[Wind]

As Alan Watts put's it: "This is the moment in which it is said man’s extremity is God’s opportunity."...

Or: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
- Albert Einstein

I think that those two phrases hold a deep meaning. In a way it's a race against time... Humans will either attain a new collective state of consciousness or we will let go and let nature take its course, perhaps both of those will happen anyways. We're just delaying the inevitable. In the past humanity faced near (both self inflicted and natural) annihilation and yet always there were refugees. Though personally I don't see our collective (even small) actions as vain, every day we affect the global human consciousness and that way the world changes. It gives me comfort to know that everything happens for a reason, God doesn't make mistakes.

[Milneman]

I've started this three times, and three times the browser has "magically" shot back to the previous page and deleted what I had written. Ok, I get the message. lol

I went from trying to approach this from the point of view that the majority of people don't want to change, browser went back. I tried the approach of the largest populations centers are in China, Russia, and India, and in the end it won't matter what we want but what they want...and my browser went back. I tried a make more gay babies approach and...you guessed it.

I'm assuming if I manage to hit *post quick reply* on this one, that will mean something (either my fingers aren't hitting my mouse, or someone else figures it's "ok").

The way I approach this is to look at the probability factors. The probability is if we keep consuming resources the way we are, war is going to happen. Should war happen, it's more than likely going to be nuclear. Meaning, bombs are going to go off to destroy cities, or create EMP's, and that's going to be that...or the climate will change so drastically that the sea levels will rise way up, weather will become much more wild and unpredictable, ice age, all this....

...anyone else getting frustrated? You notice the mindset creates that emotional stimulation? You notice how the probabilities create emotional responses that direct people to a feeling of....oh screw it, I'm not going to change today?

Yep, I know, preaching to the choir.

So I won't disagree about education, becoming stronger, the state of affairs. It's all true. But we've missed one thing I think. We have to accept this is the way it is: the vast majority of people on the planet don't want to change, and because that's the truth, we have to accept the possible reality that we're going to go down with the ship; or we won't provided we learn how to swim, and as I recently learned, accept that even though we may want people to learn how to swim, they just don't want to.

There is a very old prophecy that I learned from my Ojibwa teacher. The world will come to a crisis and an "end" when it feels as if the entire world is being consumed by fire. But there is hope in this prophecy. Those who know how to care for the earth, those that are keepers of the earth, the Anishnabe, they will remain behind...they will survive.

So there's two ways you can look at that. You can look at it as literal fire, or warming (global warming), or you can look at it as he did: namely, fire symbolic of love, the world ends when we are consumed not by fire but by love.

I'd say we have a ways to go yet.

Don't think about 7 billion minds to change, and stick to the one mind with certainty you know exists. I'm forced to focus not on the bad guys and the good guys, but to just be the best good guy I can be, to make myself stronger mentally, to read, to research, (most importantly) to open my ideas to concepts that go contrary to what I believe to be true...and guys...I'm going through a major transition right now, asking some big questions that don't have answers that I want to have...still its just a matter of waiting for instructions from Upper Management. Usually I end up where I'm needed to either push someone else's buttons or get my own pushed. And that's guided in a good way, and that means I'm entitled to have hope (and so are YOU! )

[robertr2m]

Just an alternate thought here that was touched on briefly...

I come from a very large family. I have 9 aunts and uncles, numerous cousins and myself have 4 brothers but yet, I have only two kids. My thought on this (in addition to the other thoughts presented) is that when you've been raised within a large family where the mother was a full time homemaker, it was financially harder. Alot of people in my generation (I'm 44) saw this and felt that without the mother working and having a large number of children, it would be repeating the difficulties they experienced in their own childhood.

We weren't "poor" (we lived on a reservation for a couple of years when my dad got out of the Army and that is the true definition of poor) but looking back, things were difficult. One of us getting sick, my Dad working major overtime, the car breaking down, my Dad working major overtime, the fridge going out and yep, major overtime. It was alot of pay check to pay check living and breakfast for dinner.

My point is, these children from my generation by deciding to have both parents work and either having no children or only 2 or 3 should start to show a population decline. That, combined with non reproductive unions (ie. gay marriage - no disrespect, I'm basing it on birth rates not adoption rates).

Anyway... my dos centavos to the conversation for what it's worth.

Be safe, R2

[Flash]

We are getting good feedback with which we can work here, many thanks. Well, hum... ah,,, except maybe the making gay babies (teasing you my friend).

The 'awakened' Being can easily see the cause and solution to these problems...and it has been written about for decades...but so what...if the masses are still ignorant of life and rely on everyone else for directions and help? ....................................


Solutions will never materialize until the collective human race has moved beyond it's current state of consciousness...............................

Unfortunately they are far too radical for the state of the rest of the people they preach to...it is a slow process and one which has little reward...if you intend to be seen tomorrow as the saviour of mankind.............................

We pretty much all agree that the solutions will show themselves when the personal and collective consciousness with evolve and most are resistant to change because, in parts, of the ways it is imparted by the vanguard ones. I do not think that we want to be SEEN as the savior of manking, we just want to be helpful.

Flash: Furthermore, the dark forces seem to have taken a good stride in front of us regarding their own evolution

To which Shane as well as Finefeather seem to agree, we should not give those dark forces too much tought, because they are from the old paradigm, and we should do what we have to do, creating something new.

Shane:
The world is overpopulated.. IF we want to keep our actions on this planet THE SAME as they currently are. If we are willing to change and adapt, the population being what it is does not HAVE to be unsustainable.

Flash: Any ideas on changing paradigms, in a smooth fashion, experiences, history teaching us, anything????? Precise ideas concerning the heart, the brain, the values, the beliefs, the dream land, anything, taking into account the Cabal's blocks (ex, no access to mass media other than internet) etc.

Any idea about precise objectives to pursue in the above direction???

So once again, we seem to agree that a change in paradigm, societal as well as individual is needed. That could be the general objective. How could we precise it to be efficient in our approaches, for the bulk of humanity?

Although I could post some ideas I have imagined I honestly don't believe that will benefit anyone so I will hold back in that.

Wouldn't that be an old paradigm Shane??? Please, dare giving ideas.

Start within yourself. Change how YOU view the problems and solutions and how you anticipate the outcome. That would be the start of remembering history and the FACT that the "cabal" is NOT more powerful than you.

Ok, we are talking here of a change in beliefs, in our internal beliefs system, starting with a change in beleving into hierarchical power, a change in the victim archetype maybe? And a new belief in oneself strenght.

And then imagining someting better (Shane words). Then Shane makes a pledge t live differently for example by consuming less and sharing how to apply it.

A world where the conditions are drastically different because we are living differently. I will take my own personal steps towards that......
But.. I can imagine it. I can live it myself. I can hope we all choose something.. Different.. Better.. More efficient.. More sustainable..

Then Shane says that HE KNOWS that it is possible, to imagine better but

but it may not yet resonate with everyone.

The question my then be, how do we facilitate the resonating for everyone else?

Then Finefeather brings in the following:

Finefeather: but there is a brighter side to this...although unseen my many who see only darkness and despair. .... we need to bring down those systems of corruption which have been around for 1000s of years.........We need to therefore bring forth the knowledge of truth.........

This means a greater sense of responsibility and a greater need for non sensational approaches to topics which cause conflict

So we have here the first constraint to respect in order to achieve our objective, namely non sensationalism to avoid conflicts.

Then Finefeather says

from forces and Beings who's sole purpose is to awaken the heart to Unity, and to galvanise the Will to a higher purpose.

So we have here a direction to establish plans to make sure the objective is achieve, the direction of Unity, which could be our safeguard and the barometer on which we evaluate our direction and its success, little step by little step. Does the present thinking and action brings in Unity and avoid separativeness?

Finefeather: these laws of life, in every way they can for their own benefit...and it will be these very laws who will stand firm. The laws of life and the laws of nature are the laws on which this Cosmos is built and run................It is the very Laws of Life and of Nature itself who is ever by our side ........for the power and the love that resided in higher realms is unchallenged by the meagre doings of those on this planet who can only but dream of being in persistent power and control over a race of Beings...The Human Being...

Once again, we have in Finefeather words another guideline, another barometer on which to evaluate our direction and our success: does it bring love, is it from love?

We also have something new: the laws of nature on our side, comic and well as earthbound laws. We could therefore determine which are the main one to respect at each step of our unfoldment plan and see how they apply in practicality to built on, in order to do an action plan.

Then Wind remind us to remain at a meta view, meta position, even when being in the action

Wind quotes of Einstein: Or: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
- Albert Einstein

And then this phrase from Milneman

I'm entitled to have hope (and so are YOU! )

A third sign post to keep in sight, instilling hope. You remember how people reacted to the self confidence and the hope speeck of Obama. Well, they did not come true with this administartion, but nevertheless, they were on target for what we need to implement change.

So lets establish a good objective, good sign posts along the road not to be lost and then we can start looking at how to implement different action plans in a sustainable direction as Etherios, Debuyshkin, 778, Eram, Amer Zo, Pubwash, Conkrake, Titanium and others have started to suggest.

-------------------------------

So, if I resume:

The Objective: Change in thinking and beliefs paradigms, societal (collective) and individual.

Second objectives: Changes in beliefs systems regarding:

Changing the beliefs of victims into beliefs of having strenght
Changing the beliefs of hierarchies having power, into our inner and collective power


The sign post or guidelines on which to cross check our success and action plan, in no specific pre-establish order:

1. Is it avoiding conflicts and resistance? Is it non sensationalist (low key enough)
2. Does it promote Unity?
3. Is it from love, does it bring love?
4. Which law of nature does it respect?
5. Does it provide hope?


Action plan:

A. Making a pledge
B. Imangining solutions
C. Finding ways to have it resonate with the bulk of humanity
D. Determining the laws of nature
E. Determine the possible applications of the laws of nature
F. More

-------------

For each action plan, we have at every step revise the 5 questions of the barometer, of the sign posts.

Each action could be define Under the broader action plan items above.

[Milneman]

Make more gay babies.

Seriously though....back away from the planet for a second and think about that.

I'm going to start with...ugh....

The possibility of our cognitive faculties being true, given that naturalism and evolution are true, is very low. Almost one in a million. If you believe both naturalism and evolution, you have a defeater for belief in your cognitive faculties.

Meaning?

Well meaning that if you believe in naturalism (there is no God, in it's simplest form) and you believe in Darwinian evolutionary theory (natural selection being an unguided process) then you have to concede that only 50% of what you believe could be true, because belief really has nothing to do with behavior, which guides natural selection...meaning its possible we have a defeater for everything we believe, including the belief in the defeater....



Meaning there's a greater probability that evolution is a guided process. Meaning that peeps who are gay perhaps DO have a role to play on a genetic level in controlling population.

Back it up again, and look back again at natural selection. Even if you don't believe that it's a guided process, the fact remains that a species that does not have a certain quality that brings it to the next stage of development given the conditions of its environment is going to die out. The species that has the higher qualities as a result of natural selection will, by virtue of passing on these qualities to its young, continue the species. The species will survive.

So: teach your kids that a glass bottle might be heavy, but in the long run it produces far less waste than a plastic bottle, is actually aesthetically more pleasing (you ever toasted with plastic bottles before?), creates less waste based on fossil fuels...aaaah....see that's where I started to wake up, that and telling Shezbeth to read Atlas Shrugged. Why did we switch to plastic bottles? Less waste, remember? How many plastic bottles end up in land fill, or worse?

The Objective: Pass to the next generation the qualities we know are invaluable for the spiritual survival of the species. Namely...what got us to the position that makes it impossible for a teacher to fail a student unless the parent agrees to the teacher failing the student has to go. Meaning, at a greater level we have to admit we are powerless over crude oil and it is making our lives unmanageable (sound familiar anyone?) We admit that a power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity, and make a decision to turn our will and our life over the the care of God as we understand God. And then....we make a fearless and moral inventory of ourselves, admit to God, ourselves, and the rest of us the nature of our wrongs....then we have to take the step, individually FIRST and collectively SECOND, that we are willing to let go of these defective behaviors/desires in willingness of replacing them for more beneficial behaviors/desires, and consciously make the step to ask God to help us return these defects of imbalance to balance; then we have to make a list of the people and beings we have harmed and become willing to make amends to them all (and by amends, this can mean changes in constructive behavior...say...change our farming methods, change our reproductive strategy, make more gay babies, etc)....but we must constantly be aware personally of these over-abundances and excesses of character in ourselves personally, and change them personally, before we can effect this kind of change on a massive scale. Truth is? If you make the changes in your own home, you will notice within 2-3 weeks if not sooner that others in your home, by default, will sync with you. It's really cool to watch it happen.

The last two steps are very important. We have to maintain a constant interaction and communication with whatever it is we choose to call our Higher Power, be it God, Higher Consciousness, "Gaia", whatever you want to call it. Even Atheists can meditate and be more conscious of their own selves, their own balances and imbalances. Only then, when we've completed this process, can we justly attempt to even tell other people it can be done. I suspect people will get the drift, see the difference in us, and want that for themselves anyway. The trick is to convey the message in such a way that allows each person who hears it to know they figured it out themselves.

My two cents..recycled....and I'm hoping for diet coke in a glass bottle again one day soon.

Oh, and make more gay babies.

Post Script: Even though I throw the word God around a lot in this post, it's a concept that isn't necessary for the process to function. What is necessary is to believe in a power greater, even if that means the collective positive human consciousness that begins to wake up as these steps unfold collectively. Bill W. Gotta love him.

[Shane]

To try to answer your questions of me directly flash as best I can being unable to properly quote you..

We cannot MAKE it resonate with everyone else. It's a choice. That free will stuff I always harp about and the personal responisbility that comes with our choices. We choose to seek information, we choose to discern, we choose what to keep from it, we choose what to discard or overlook, we choose what to do with what we keep or learn from it.

So.. All we can do, is do ourselves. Share our information and ideas with those asking for it. (Which I will come back to) help whoever we can however we can and accept when we can't.

Why I am choosing not to share specific ideas is as you pointed out part of the "old paradigm" you are correct. In this case the way in which it is so, is not the way in which you are think but you are correct none the less. And shame on me for that. I am wrong not to, yet I am still going to choose to continue with that wrong, simply due to the venue. I would gladly discuss these ideas with you, and most likely many individuals here. I do not however wish to commit that to the forum as a whole, because I am sensitive to how I influence the free will of others. This is a "cop out" - if you will.

It a very big discussion, the creation if a world in which this planet can sustain
7 billion or more people and remain healthy. One that requires rebuilding.. Rebuilding would be fun.. But levelling the foundation is not something I have the intelligence or will to go into discussion about, on an open forum such as, and/or specifically, Avalon. I respect the beings here and am actively aware of the sensitivity of the souls here. I feel that my words in explaining this would do more harm than good at this stage. I only want to help, not hurt or risk hurting.

Back to topic.

I will leave it with this. There are ways to adapt our behaviours and live in such a way that we can survive well and thrive without disturbing our environment to such and extent that it allows that natural harmonic balances of the planet to return. At which time we could then use our intelligence, creativity and technology to continue to expand without disrupting that harmonic natural balance.

To give some insight as to where I am personally at with this line of imagining:

I am trying to imagine a way to accomplish allowing the planet the time and freedom of human attempted control to balance itself, without removing vast majority of humanity. So far this is where I am, and I believe many other get, stuck. Frustrated, we decide we are overpopulated.

So I will keep trying to imagine a solution. I will keep encouraging others to do the same when on the topic. I will continue to do my best to personally live and make choice to get to my imagined goal.

Hopefully, this will not be viewed as pretentious, as I fail everyday and am at times wrong in my thinking or actions. But.. I learn from mistakes .. And I'm trying.

[Flash]

I do respect your will to discuss when you want, but not an open forum and to care for the sensitivity of others and their readiness.

Your last paragraph about finding a way to feed, lodge and love more than 7 billions people is actually the target of this thread. So yes, the imagination is necessary here.

As for resonating, others resonate when they are ready. However, you know as well as I do that one can bring concepts, ideas, values to a group of people as an offering. The are always free to refuse or accept, but you give your hand.

However one can bring it in a way that almost eveybody can understand (extreme vulgarisation) and start resonating, even if at a minimal level. This is call education and change of paradigm, ever slowly but constant. Always as an offering, not an imposing. Always keeping in mind and heart the premises discussed in my previous thread as sign posts to be respected (I should have put Does it keep freedom going, or does it infringe on freedom - as well).

A structured teaching approach or offering of new idea, when given with a full heart and love, will usually start having the recipient resonate. They can reject if they want, but when there is zero will for control or domination, ideas and any help are much more transparent and acceptable to the bulk of people.

This also means that my idea is as good as my neighbour's, and is as applicable as long as it passes through the sign posts and respect the objective. Then it can be evaluated on its efficiency.

The problems arise when egos are involved in any ways.

But granted it is a slow process.

What I am looking for here are ideas and means that would sustain a common goal/objective and have sign posts to cross check with, sign posts that are in fact the enunciation of new values, common to all those involved in the process.

[Shane]

Imagine having a large family. Imagine providing information to your family and having half of them come to the same remembering.

These people live their life and for every five people that come and go from their lives each year, one also comes to real-eyes the same things, and also begin to live them.

They start influencing one person a year.

Snowballs? And somewhere we can all start!

Imagine.

There are MANY specific issues to look at. We see a / the BIG PICTURE. However.. We cannot expect to understand immediately how to fix the BIG PICTURE. This is why we start with the rivers leading to the hole. And watch that hole fill and become a lake. (For those who enjoy metaphors).

It is OK to start small and at the root. It's ok to not be able to see beyond a certain point in this type of theoretical planning for a change in the world, because.. Our level of consciousness will be different by the time we heal the root of the ill tree that metaphorically respresents our current population problem.

So let us heal the roots ( and they are in all of us) so that we can reach a point where we can properly assess healing the base of the tree trunk.


Some ideas on how to do that?

We can offer what we know to others without expectation, simply because we DO CARE about our fellow human beings, as we will and do for all being through the universe, including the beings we live on and call planets. Let us continue to imagine as far forward as our level of consciousness allows, and never punish ourselves or become discouraged when we reach that blurry part.

Even if someone is incorrect in what they are saying, if I hear it said with full conviction it can and does cause me to consider or reconsider it. Providing, they believe it in their hearts, and not only their mind.

So having full conviction in your pursuit and the desire to help others pursue as well, for a solution. Be true to what you know, honest about what you don't know, not in fear of being wrong, and this will go a LONG way in helping these things "resonate with others".

Who knows. If it does. Maybe one of them will find a solution that I cannot. Or, even show me I am wrong.

[Etherios]

well everyone talks about overpopulation as its a fact. We are too many compared to what? We are saying 7 or 10 bill is too much for the earth to handle compared to what?

Yes we cant have 10 bill bill gates or soros ... not enough space to keep the "slaves" that feed those type of people.

As i have said before we are animals. And you can see that animals that have high chances of survival make few babies. Almost all that have many enemies make alot of babies. Humans need 2.1 population growth to maintain its numbers.

So the first step is to get everyone to that spot ... how we can do that ... raise the standard of living. I dont mean give all Iphones ... i mean give all a normal house, enough clean food and water and heating. Once we ALL have that the population will stabilize. And thats where the problem comes ... to achieve better living conditions we will have to give the time/ability to the people to think and criticize their lives. We all know thats not allowed by those that control us.

Anyway something last for all to think about ...

Most replies here give the feeling that the posters think this is someone elses problem. You all think this is for the 3rd world to solve? The west WILL be a memory in 100 years or so ... when the GMO kicks in and the infertility and when our generation (30-40) die off. The 3rd world dont know or care ... we are in a death trap not them. You are talking about raising consciousness and attitude ... we are out of time people and thats the hole plan. The borders arent opening cause they want to overthrow the west ... they are just repopulating dieing societies and ofc reducing the standard of living.

If you have time look for youtube videos giving the numbers about how the hole 7 bill people can live in an American Dream house and just cover the size of texas ... thats ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE PLANET LIVING IN 1-2 FLOOR HOUSES WITH GARDENS.

If you look at clever ways of growing food (macs or kfc etc) we can grow enough for 20 bill + (not sure if i remember the numbers well) with the current technologies.

If we deleted the huge inefficient energy grids that lose most of the power in the transport and start using personal (house/building or flat) power sources then we can reduce the damage on the planet.

If we start spreading our cities or move to small towns and start making our houses nature friendly (dont care about energy efficient its a scam) then we can all live along side nature.

i can go on but it wont matter.

First we have to agree there is a problem and killing off something (planet / humans / animals) isnt a solution. But we cant even do that. We are so stuck fighting on how and when and where ... that we cant see humanity dieing infront of us.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Shane (here)
...

I agree with you man but ... it wont happen. Atm the only way for humans to change is by pain. And i hope my feeling is wrong but we will feel pain ... lots of it and soon.

[Flash]

I agree with all you write Etherios in terms of solutions, they exist. What I do not agree with is that we won't succeed.

When the society goes down, because it will, we have to be ready, have the plans, know how to get the will of the people in and move fast. We have to be ready. If we set a skeleton of a structure, we will be able to lauch it fast. If it holds and people get into it, good. Then we implement the stratégies.

Again i am looking for ideas and stategies that we can hook to a common objective, with new values and sign posts, in order to create an action plan that will be fast to implement, including the "resonance" of the people.

I use to say that necessity is the mother of creativity. We pretty much will get there and the structural thinking has to be in place, as well as the first easy to implement solutions.

Nobody wlll do it for us, we will be left alone and will have to act fast in order not to be overridden by a new domination taking the lead.

[Shane]

Etherios: I agree with you also, and we are saying almost the same thing. My focus on the root metaphor I used, addresses this.

As you say.. It won't happen. You are right. Unless we can change our minds. Massive task. Please understand I know very very well how seemingly impossible this is. I truly do.

We are stuck where we are because of our level of consciousness. We need to help people learn this. It is our only hope. You may be right, it might be too late. I don't believe you are ready to give up. I believe you will continue to try your best until (assuming it does) all come crashing down.


And that's why, due to how late of an hour it is in this game.. We need focused efforts to try to pull it out.

If we don't succeed. At least we tried.

Thank you for your post as I feel it says what I also feel.

Where does my hope come from? I just know we (well.. Humans) are so very powerful creators. The imagination is the key. If we can help others choose to learn. Choose to feel. Choose to act. We (humans) can change. Raising our collective consciousness to a point where one or many of us find the solution we can all see as truth. I may sound naive, but this is the secret I was meant to keep, and can no longer deny.

I know despite your tone above you haven't given up. You wouldn't have posted if you have. So just remember this.. You want them to get off their knees too. Love them as you love yourself, and you'll always find the strength and courage to continue trying.

My apology is this seems off topic at all.

[Spellbound]

When I first logged onto the internet back in the mid 90's I was completely fascinated by a story that AIDS was developed as a means of population control....initially signed off on by Henry Kissenger. He had a study conducted in the 70's that said the planet simply wasn't feasible with the (then) current level of growth and that within 50 years it would become unsustainable. So, somehow, someway, a test group of inmates in a prison in NE USA were granted parole if they volunteered to be innoculated with AIDS (they weren't told it would kill them...and the gov't really didn't know what they were doing at that point). Long story short...each inmate died after being let out...but not before spreading the disease.

Is it bull****?? Could be. Then again, there could be a kernel of truth somewhere in there. The point being that the only real way of controlling the population is via war, disease, or famine (all 3 of which run rampant throughout the world). I'll always remember being fascinated with that story about Kissinger though. Gotta love the internet.

Dave - Toronto

[Flash]

you have not seen the video in the opening post Dave, have you? Because it seems that reducing the population can also be done with making sure everyone is basically fed and lodge, giving access to this to everyone. Then people start having only 2.5 chldren in average. The effort for simple replacement could then be foreseen.

So no, wars and epidemics are not a solution nor a necessity.

As shane was saying, imagining what could be would get us out of the woods. A new paradigm based on a new way of thinking to make sure we cover the basis for food, lodgment and population revolution. lol

---------

I remember reading the same about Aids. It seems that, although half Africa died, the virus was not as virulent as planned. Same with H1N1

[thunder24]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=V6jxxagVEO4

wanted to link https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...636#post799636 and consider from a greater perspective...

something along the lines of "it is what it is", though it doesn't have to be...

...yet it could be "peace"

[Spellbound]

I may be a pessimist, but I don't think population reduction (or even control) can be achieved by ensuring everyone is fed and lodged with access given to everyone. People, in general, are too greedy for that to happen. A new paradigm where we imagine all the people living life in peace...is a fairytail. It'd be nice...but I don't see it happening. There will always be war, there will always be disease, and there will always be famine. Always has...always will be. I completely understand that we are our own worst enemy....and that we need to clean up our own mess. However, I don't really see it happening.

Dave - Toronto