Is the white light after we die a trap?

[O Donna]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Thats Good O Donna
Just for the sake of not going into great detail i "" final,
Im just having a little fun here.
You could say im brain washed but for thirty years daily, Ive been listening to, reading. watching and on several occasion was in satsang with enlightened souls
From absorbing the teaching I have every confidence, at a very deep level, that leaving the body on exiting this life, is 100% safe.

Chris

For sure, as safe as anything can be.

Often times what we fear in an afterlife is similar to what we fear now though the ornaments may vary.

Fear not the shadow that leads or follows for appearances are deceiving. And fear not deception as even jokes have this element.

[Hervé]

Posted by DNA (here)

Posted by Hervé (here)
Then, there is this other point: Why was Pam shoved back into a body she didn't want to get back into ???

That's "incarceration" not "incarnation."

If her higher self asked and or gave an okay to her Uncle to push her back into her body then there was no incarceration.
[...]

That's a very big assumption

All I know from her testimony is that, as a "soul" she sure didn't want to go back into that body. The end result is that she got shoved back into it... not from "freewill."


Without any "if," all I know from her testimony is that she experienced a physical "pull" on her "soul/astral body" and she didn't want to get back into it but got shoved back in.



That's the data.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Can anyone present a case where maintaining the following strong intentions may not be beneficial:


"I am sovereign. I do not consent to manipulation."
"I go home to Source."

[DNA]

Posted by Hervé (here)
That's a very big assumption

It's conjecture not assumption. I've met my higher self, and if I have a higher self what would make me so special? I'm not, therefore everyone has a higher self.

You my friend are the one making the assumptions. You have made your mind up that there is a soul harvester and as such you seek to doctor the evidence to fit your preconceptions. In my opinion you need to let go of the idea that you know what is going on. You need to allow for new data to affect your opinion instead of attempting to make the data serve preconceptions and in my opinion misconceptions.

Posted by Hervé (here)
All I know from her testimony is that, as a "soul" she sure didn't want to go back into that body. The end result is that she got shoved back into it... not from "freewill."

A baby if allowed to would stay in the womb and never leave, this would eventually cause the demise of the baby and the mother carrying it.

Is it not better that the baby would get a necessary push so as to enter the cold and uncomfortable world when it could have continued residing in what it considered heaven?

[Hervé]

Posted by DNA (here)

Posted by Hervé (here)
That's a very big assumption

It's conjecture not assumption. I've met my higher self, and if I have a higher self...
[...]

I guess the expressed duality here is being completely disregarded... oh, well, no point in pursuing this further.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by DNA (here)
I'm also of the opinion that if you so choose you can consciously fight this pull and stay here on earth in the dimension you lived in.

Absolutely. Anyone can resist the light if they want - but then you risk getting stuck here. An earthbound spirit is precisely what a ghost is. Now that is the trap, if there is one.

Worse still is falling into the lower astral realms, where the vibrations are heavy and oppressive. It's a place of ignorance and denial and negativity. Could this be another layer of the psyop? Are there nefarious reasons why the insidious 'powers that be' don't want people ascending to the light, and instead staying behind to join lost, wandering souls in the astral? One wonders...

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Ron Mauer Sr (here)
Can anyone present a case where maintaining the following strong intentions may not be beneficial:

"I am sovereign. I do not consent to manipulation."
"I go home to Source."

The only manipulation at work is that wrought by man, here on the earth-side of life. Spirit is pure, spirit is eternal. Source is not a place, it simply IS. And you're already source anyway.

Sorry Ron, I just don't see it!

The goal of life is to better oneself, in a nutshell - to experience as much as we can experience, travel as far as we can travel, love all that we can love, and just be all that we possibly can be. If there is a summit to it all, a so-called place we refer to as 'Source', then I doubt we'd be able to magic ourselves there. There are spiritual laws that cannot be circumvented (eg, you can't become a Christ in a day). In other words, to reach the destination you have to walk the road.

I'd imagine that if it were possible to 'go back to source' at death, then every soul, upon leaving the restrictions of their flesh body, would be aware of it, and go ahead and do so. But then the spirit world would be a very empty place. And the earth would be a very empty place too, as no souls would be coming to populate it. They'd all have gone home after their last lives. In fact, the universe would be empty and lifeless and there'd be nothing anywhere, not so much as a star in the vacuum, and not even a vacuum. The whole point was to separate from source, and create ALL.THIS.

[DNA]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)

Posted by DNA (here)
I'm also of the opinion that if you so choose you can consciously fight this pull and stay here on earth in the dimension you lived in.

Absolutely. Anyone can resist the light if they want - but then you risk getting stuck here. An earthbound spirit is precisely what a ghost is. Now that is the trap, if there is one.

Worse still is falling into the lower astral realms, where the vibrations are heavy and oppressive. It's a place of ignorance and denial and negativity. Could this be another layer of the psyop? Are there nefarious reasons why the insidious 'powers that be' don't want people ascending to the light, and instead staying behind to join lost, wandering souls in the astral? One wonders...

Indeed, I believe something along the very same lines.

I believe there is a difference between what we commonly refer to as Shadow beings and what we would call ghosts.

Ghosts are usually fresh from their death. Most ghosts I would run into have not been dead very long, in one case a ghost I helped cross over was shown to me by the angelic administrator who had come to accompany her crossing, or rather a perfect picture of her face outlined in energy on my ceiling. The next day I was looking through the classifieds for used cars in the local newspaper and quite accidentally opened the obituaries. There staring back at me was the exact face of the woman who's face had been outlined on my ceiling the night before.

Shadow beings from my experience tend to be old, and corded by other older more powerful shadow beings above them.

My only experience in so far as duality is concerned with the afterlife is that these dark shadow beings who are seen only because they are the absence of light are the antithesis of what is at the end of the tunnel of light.

If a ghost wonders too long and is then approached and coerced by a shadow being they may be in for a very long and dark existence, to be a parasite that feeds on human energy, and to then have other parasites feed upon them.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Hervé (here)
All I know from her testimony is that, as a "soul" she sure didn't want to go back into that body. The end result is that she got shoved back into it... not from "freewill."

No force acted against freewill, it was again just natural law in operation. Every single time we enter sleep, we separate from our bodies. All of us. Usually we float close by – you have to be conscious and quite skilled to do any more than that or go very far. I have done this several times whilst being consciously aware at the same time. That's an Out of Body Experience. There are many on this forum who have experienced this.

When this happens, I don't really want to come back into my body either! But I do, because I have no choice in the matter. Freewill doesn't play a part. The soul is connected to the body by a spiritual tether, some call it the 'silver cord'. As long as we live, this cord stays intact. It won't let us separate. Only after death, and during 'second death', does it naturally break, and that happens only when we fully transition into the next realm.

The reason Pam came back, like all NDErs come back, is multifold. More lessons to be learned, more tasks to perform, or pledges to fulfil (like raising children) etc. And also to bring back a message to a humanity that is losing hope. This is important to take note of: many NDErs are given a message purely to bring us comfort. But the main reason, the bottom-line reason is, her cord didn't break, because she wasn't dead and she wasn't going to die. Her survival was probably pre-determined.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

This discussion makes me wonder about free will and choices. Apparently the soul makes choices that may override personal choices. Sure would be nice to have a discussion with high self. Partnerships are much better with clear communication.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Ron Mauer Sr (here)
This discussion makes me wonder about free will and choices. Apparently the soul makes choices that may override personal choices.

I'm positive that it does. It is still technically 'us', just a way bigger us.

One vague analogy might be looking back over one's life and seeing what we might do differently. Let's say we actually could go back in time, say thirty years, and make a different choice. That would be an example of 'you' overriding another 'you' (but the you of 30 years ago). But it's still you! The only difference is time. The 'you' of now has a lot more information than the you of then.

[And one's younger self would probably still think it knows better than you!]

Your higher self is beyond even time, and space, so you can bet your bottom dollar it knows infinitely more than the 'you' down here in this incarnation. Trust your higher self. It knows better! After all, you are not the real you, but one small aspect of it, a persona.

On the theme of this thread, would it make sense that 'you' tricked yourself into coming here?

[Ron Mauer Sr]

My question was really about communication and enhancing a partnership. Going into the light tunnel or not going, is a major decision.
Similar to a parent guiding a child, guidance works best when the parent offers the reason for an overriding decision.
To go or not to go would be a wonderful discussion with high self. No imposters allowed.
I think *clear* communication may be our (my?) biggest issue to navigate this reality. Maybe there is something impeding communication.

[Hervé]

Before leaving this thread, I'd like to make it clear what I mean by "duality" which seems to be lost on most everyone:

When one "talks to"/"communicate with" one's "higher self;" right there, there is a DUALITY... there is a "TWO" communicating with each other... not a single one talking to itself... savvy?

In other words, one cannot communicate or meet with one's higher self unless that higher self is a poseur or an imposter, i.e somebody else than oneself! and EXTERNAL to oneself... one is oneself whether higher or lower and has no need to communicate or receive communication from either since one is IT in whole.

Accordingly, a "pull" out of, or a shove back in, a body is not a sign of freewill nor of sovereignty.

Ciao!

[DNA]

Posted by Hervé (here)
Before leaving this thread, I'd like to make it clear what I mean by "duality" which seems to be lost on most everyone:

When one "talks to"/"communicate with" one's "higher self;" right there, there is a DUALITY... there is a "TWO" communicating with each other... not a single one talking to itself... savvy?

In other words, one cannot communicate or meet with one's higher self unless that higher self is a poseur or an imposter, i.e somebody else than oneself! and EXTERNAL to oneself... one is oneself whether higher or lower and has no need to communicate or receive communication from either since one is IT in whole.

Accordingly, a "pull" out of, or a shove back in, a body is not a sign of freewill nor of sovereignty.

Ciao!

Is a tide pool separate from the ocean? And if so for how long?

Although there were many points I brought up to argue your objections on the Pam Reynolds case you appear to want to hammer on the point that her soul was given a push back into the body.
I'm not aware of all the rules involved in such things Herve, as neither are you my friend.
I can open with conjecture though.
We speak of freewill but understand this, freewill as far as what I've been told only exists on this side of the veil.

When you cross the tunnel of light you are in the "mansion" (borrowed from the many mansions phrase Greybeard brought up earlier) your vibrations are attuned to. Your vibrations are who you are and when on the other side there is a understanding of the house rules. The house rules are more of a understanding of being and once you have achieved this there are no deviations in terms of harming others or really even yourself, nor would you want to.

When Pam was standing at the precipice of the tunnel accompanied by her uncle her body had been awakened.
This also brings into account certain rules that may apply.
In response to your duality question I feel I answered it in a post earlier but I'll attempt to do so in a different manner.

Your question hints at something that a duality explanation is simply not going to cut it.
Your higher self is like the hub of a wheel with millions of spokes coming out of it.
If string theory is a real thing, and I think it is, this single manifestation of yourself is magnified by millions if not billions of possible you's.
Now throw in thousands of incarnations of different manifestations each with it's own millions or billions of potentialities and you get my drift.
How can a piece of bark complain about where it grows to the tree it is attached to or the forest of trees it belongs to?
I try not to make my posts too long, but I've got more points to make along this line of thinking.
StarMariner's Post #585 really has some great points I absolutely agree with as well.
Try not to adhere to strongly to your signature and we may get some where.

Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

[Bo Atkinson]

Posted by DNA (here)

Posted by Hervé (here)

When one "talks to"/"communicate with" one's "higher self;" right there, there is a DUALITY... there is a "TWO" communicating with each other... not a single one talking to itself... savvy?

In other words, one cannot communicate or meet with one's higher self unless that higher self is a poseur or an imposter, i.e somebody else than oneself! and EXTERNAL to oneself... one is oneself whether higher or lower and has no need to communicate or receive communication from either since one is IT in whole.

Your question hints at something that a duality explanation is simply not going to cut it.
Your higher self is like the hub of a wheel with millions of spokes coming out of it.

[/QUOTE]


My closest experience of the "real me", or the "realer me" is more singular of focus and not aware of the earth-bound-me or a past-life-me... Just as my eath-bound-me maintains a linear time track and does not literally-physically "go back in time" to replay a personal memory. Rather a "flash back memory" can be quite absorbing at times, but not two separate me-selves.

Likewise, the transition out of human life does not seem a likely contract negotiation or a decision to make, on the spot. Just as with our night dreams, I expect that it is rather the momentum, of our last life-focus, which determines the outcome of death or transition.

This is where I see daydreaming affecting night dreaming, as an interplay, to work up awareness levels of both, over time and also to where death will occur with the maximum awareness possible. Where increased awareness at all times is the only assurance of truer will freedoms.

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Dr Eben Alexander NDEis also a classic

Well, there is one advantage, at least, to someone reposting the same video more than once, over the years.

When someone else finally gets around to viewing it for the first time, they can search back for the earlier posts, and thank it more than once.



Dr. Alexander's meeting his already deceased sister, while he was on his journey, that he had no way in this ordinary life up to that point of knowing had even ever existed, and then later learning that he had that sister, and then confirming that it was exactly that sister whom he had met while on his journey, was an unforgettable bit of testimony.

Thanks!

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by greybeard (here)
There is no indication where the pull is leading to, coming from, leading to.
We are not going to agree on this---but thats just fine--I know what I would rather believe, being as there is strong evidence your thoughts take you to your "final" destination.

I continue to verbalize my views on these matters thusly:

It's turtles layers, all the way down, and up, at least as far as the eye can see.

Self-organizing, self-replicating layers, where each layer has its own ordering and ways of being. Each layer is constrained by the "physical" limits of the lower layers out of which it is formed, and is guided by the higher layers that are formed above from that layer's entities (Susanne Langer would say "atoms" here), but these constraints are minimal, and this guidance is often subtle, even as at the same time they can be powerful and compelling.

Trying to understand any one of these layers, in terms of some other layer, is a most futile and frustrating endeavor.

As one common, in our present time at least, example of this futility, trying to understand "consciousness" or "mind" using the physical sciences of matter and energy (whereby "energy" here I mean that which conventional physicists measure by how it moves physical matter), is an impossible endeavor. A termite in an old wooden chess piece once used by Bobby Fischer has as a perhaps better chance of understanding one of Fischer's finest chess games.

Perhaps the UFO/Aliens controversy is in part a parlor game of the elite, to distract us from higher level beings, present in and around us.

[greybeard]

I agree Paul
Im saying its all levels quite often.
Im glad you got something out of the Dr Eben Alexander video.
It really is a classic.
A respected member of the medical fraternity's account of his NDE is worth taking heed of.
I do repeat post some videos for my own benefit and Im aware that there are new members and guests that may not have seen them before.
Im aware that "you" cant convince anyone, so just to share---some may appreciate, some may even laugh, its just what I do.

Best wishes
chris

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Ron Mauer Sr (here)
Maybe there is something impeding communication.

The greatest impediment is the spiritual blockage within ourselves. "And dust was thrown into the eyes of man.." It was said that very long ago (antediluvian) Man was robbed of his spiritual gifts because he perverted them. The connection he enjoyed was thoroughly abused (he went to the dark side), so it was removed. It was time for Man to experience true separation (part of the lesson, and part of the planetary karma). His sensitivity was dialled back, third eye was closed, and amnesia enacted. It all goes back to Atlantis. Everything we are, really goes back to Atlantis. But yes Ron, in my opinion, there is a blockage, and it's coded into our DNA.

We can tap these gifts however, and unlock them (though it ain't easy!). But it's been known for a long time. That's what the Mystery Schools were. And that's what Eastern mystics have been doing all this time. For you and me, today, it's a little tougher! (unless you're born with the gift).

Posted by Hervé (here)
Accordingly, a "pull" out of, or a shove back in, a body is not a sign of freewill nor of sovereignty.

I don't disagree. I've heard and read many examples of this. In a lot of these cases, the NDEr's life is in the balance - it could really go either way. Picture paramedics frantically working on the body, trying to resuscitate it. And when the body does revive, as it did with Pam, it's like waking up in the morning. She had to come back, because the operation was a success. And if it requires a nudge, even a forcible nudge, to send it back – then yes, I would agree, that's an example of violating a being's freewill.

But in my opinion, far too much emphasis is placed on sovereignty and free will. Do we always know what is best for us? Quite as Ron touched at - does the infant child stepping out in the road - to reach for its balloon - know what's best for it? Of course not. The parent who grabs it by the arm before it can walk into traffic is violating its free will – but it must, because it knows better.

There's a limit to free will. Beings higher than us are standing by to course-correct our many follies. If they did not, arrogance will be our undoing.

Hervé, I think you're a champion fella. Your work is superb and I always read your threads. I love you man, but I am somewhat puzzled why you buy into this 'theory'. It almost feels as though some would rather believe in it, like they'd sooner be victims of a giant multi-thousand year trick orchestrated by demonic aliens... Why?

Fortunately, it isn't true.

We have hundreds of years of stories pertaining to the human life/death cycle, and what the Spirit World is really like. Personally I am deeply read on the subject, and have been involved in the study of spirituality, mysticism and metaphysics for decades. Also I have many, many personal experiences, OBE's among them. Like you DNA (post #574) I've seen the tunnel too - I've witnessed and participated in 'releases', where a trapped (ghost) spirit is released from earthbound limbo and passes over into spirit. I even saw his death - He wanted to share his story before he moved on (he was murdered, thrown overboard from a yacht and drowned - this was years ago but I can still picture it like it was my own memory). When he died, he initially refused the Light because he was terrified of where he would end up (religious conditioning). The point is, I know this subject, I know it Hervé like you know yours. It will always seem like 'speculation' to those that don't know, because I cannot show anything tangible to prove it. That's the trouble.

And yet I wonder... To those who argue this corner, of reincarnation traps and alien tractor beams – how many centuries of books, testimonies, first-hand accounts, even scripture, actually support it? Truly, it comes from...Simon Parkes (!) I mean, really? And who else? Where else? What else is espousing it, and why? Ask yourself that.

Personally, I'd sooner trust the purity of the Higher Mysteries, and centuries of wisdom (as well as my own senses, physical and otherwise), than this...anti-spiritual poison! – meant solely to disarm, disengage, disempower and disinform our new age movement of truth. It's no different than the 'simulated universe' theory. "It's just a machine", they say, alien AI or some such. Transhumanism is trying to kill the Spirit in us, and turn everything into a machine, into technology – eventually, they aim to turn us into machines too. Don't fall for it!

[greybeard]

I think Star Mariner, in the nicest possible way, that you have brought this interesting discussion to a close.

Greatest respect for your experience and knowledge.which you have articulately shared.

Chris