Adolf Hitler - The Greatest Story Never Told

[loungelizard]

Posted by Cosmored (here)
It's an argument that there were no killings in gas wagons. It says that diesel was said to have been used and that diesel fumes only make people sick. It says that diesel fumes don't kill.

It's an argument that is wrong.

Here are just 3 studies that prove conclusively that the fumes from diesel engines contain lethal amounts of carbon monoxide: it is therefore proven that diesel engines could be used to murder human beings.

The first study was conducted in 1941 by Holtz and Elliott.
http://cybra.lodz.pl/Content/6253/v63no2_1941.pdf

The second study was done in 1957 by R.E. Pattle et al.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00217-0053.pdf

This study is from 2008
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18643868/

And of course, there are the testimonies of those who operated the vans or who witnessed them in action:

Testimony of Stanislaw Dubiel (Höß Trial, vol. 25, p. 82):

It was Sturmbannführer Henschel who at first seemed to us to have a very good character. And in a few days, he found another method – gassing in a car. The car goes to Birkenau, by the time it gets there everyone is dead. The driver explained how it works, that the exhaust pipe goes straight into the car. By the time the driver gets to where he’s going, they’re already dead. That was the behaviour of this supposedly good man.

Testimony of Jan Dziopek (Höß Trial, vol. 8, p. 109):

They were carried out at Block 11 until October 1944, after that the condemned were killed only at Birkenau, where they were taken from our place* in a prison van. That type of van was very tightly sealed and had apparatus for gassing the people inside. The gassing apparatus was built in the automobile workshops of the Fahrbereitschafts–Kommando.
* I.e. Auschwitz main camp.

Testimony of Edward Wrona (Höß Trial, vol. 26, p. 8.):

I think none of the witnesses has emphasized that gas vans were used at Auschwitz. I assume that the accused Höß knew about it, because he went every day to look at his beautiful limousine in the automobile workshops and saw the three vans in which people were murdered standing there. Working at the water pumping station in Block 18, I leaned my head out and observed how girls and men were packed into these vans and the executions were carried out. I witnessed how one night a German general was executed, supposedly just for refusing to carry out an order in wartime. That time around 50 limousines drove up with a huge retinue of generals and the camp command, and the execution* was carried out ceremoniously, lighting up the wall of death and the square behind Block 11 with a searchlight.
* Possibly this refers to different, "regular" execution.

Testimony of Kazimierz Grabowski (Höß Trial, vol. 26, p. 32, 33):

Presiding judge: Was there* a truck there designated in advance for gassing people?
Witness: Once one van that was especially encased in wood came in for repairs, I didn’t know what kind of van it was. German vehicles ran on methanol. There it was fitted with an exhaust pipe, round with small holes, when the prisoners were inside the van, the gas got in that way. After 15 minutes a person was ready. Before it even reached the crematorium, there were only corpses in the van. I ran across only one vehicle like that, on which I worked.
Pres: Was the van constantly in use?
Witness: Constantly, unless it was damaged, then it went in to be fixed.
Pres: Was this van used inside the camp, or outside?
Witness: That I don’t know.
* I.e. in the camp automobile repair workshops.

Testimony of Jozef Sliwa (APMAB, Collection "Statements", vol. 3, p. 336, 337):

When a larger number of sick people had accumulated*, they were taken in vans to Auschwitz. I saw the vans – gas chambers, into which transports of Muselmans were loaded. I went inside and saw the gassing apparatus, i.e. pipes to let the exhaust gases in.
* In the Golleschau sub-camp.

Testimony of Zbigniew Kazmierczyk (APMAB, Collection "Statements", vol. 45, p. 4):

Commissions often came from Auschwitz, which carried out selections among sick prisoners in the hospital. The selected prisoners were taken away to Auschwitz by vehicles, already gassing them on the way. I know from what friends told me that they were dark green, reinforced, sealed when closed, into which exhaust gas was let in.

Testimony of Wladyslaw de Rosenberg Grohs, police prisoner from Block 11 (APMAB. Collection "Statements", vol. 73, p. 38):

Yes, well out of my hall sometimes only two persons out of 100 were transferred as prisoners to one of the blocks in the camp, the rest were loaded into trucks. In any case, at that time executions were not carried out in the courtyard of Block 11. We were convinced that the prisoners sentenced to death by the police Special Court were suffocated with exhaust products in the boxes of vans – before they got as far as the crematoria.

Testimony of Artur Meyer (APMAB, Collection "Statements", vol. 93, p. 23, 23a):

Moreover, in Auschwitz there was a special apparatus. It was a van - gas chamber. Up to 14 people were loaded into this van, it was hermetically sealed and by the time the van arrived at Birkenau, its passengers were gassed to death.

Testimony of George Goiny-Grabowski (APMAB, Collection "Statements", vol. 61, p. 167):

As the Russian front approached Auschwitz, a police Einsatzkommando arrived, whose members wore uniforms with green cuffs. Among their vehicles were two gas vans, which I had an opportunity to examine in detail. The exhaust gases could be led into the box [of the van which was] filled with condemned people... The gas vans had an image showing a human head with a hand holding its nose.

Testimony of Kazimierz Czyzewski (Höß Trial, vol. 35, p. 163):

Hitlerite civilian special courts. They arrived every 14 days and tried hundreds of civilians in this Block 11. After the verdict, these people were driven into a hermetically sealed yellow van. Up to 50 people fit into it - the SS driver drove them to the crematorium (the prisoners did not know where they were going), and in this van the people were gassed, the corpses were thrown out and cremated.

Posted by Cosmored (here)

But as you’ve started, here is an amazing resource: The Harvard Law School Library provides access to approximately one million pages of documents
relating to the trials. You can search trial transcripts, books documents, legal briefs, evidence files etc etc.
https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu

This would take hours and hours. If you know of something specific about the gas chambers, could you link to it?

There is an excellent search facility - you won't have a problem.

[Agape]

My mum used to say “the only reason why Nazis were convicted at the Nuremberg trials was that everything was perfectly documented”.
They were quite meticulous and bureaucratic about recording details.
It was them who started ID cards and national register in the form we still use it today.

Likewise all Jews and other minorities they wanted to “ship to their homeland” were registered twice, probably thrice since once they entered any sort of camp they were only identified by number.
But before sending them off their names, birth dates, family relations, profession etc. was recorded both with the German office and remaining Jewish magistrate.

Some people of course managed to skip the register, hide or run to areas not yet occupied so how many more people ever died on both sides of war is always difficult to estimate.

In recent article for National Geographic I’ve read there is estimated half billion people still “unidentified”, read unregistered living in the heart of Africa and probably, on other continents too, despite what all governments admit.

The word was passed by mouth from lawyers who had to attend these difficult post-war tribunals how easy would it be “for them” to lie themselves out for the situation if not for those meticulous records.

They were allegedly lying till the very end of themselves, denying it all together before the records were pulled out , with their own stamps of course and shown to them, they started to break down the testimonies.

These records with family names and lines exist in archives and are preserved for posterity. If you ever visit Prague or Berlin for that sake, visit the “Museum of Holocaust” for real black and white photos and personal relics and documents from that era of history.
There is more than enough evidence not to notice it , in countries and territories stricken then by WWII.

The names of victims were written on the walls even.

They were known to other people as well. They weren’t nameless crowd of nobodies.


Themselves like everyone else does at the end of war they tried their best to destroy and cover the evidence when the liberating armies were approaching.

But due to someone’s “German punctuality” they would preserve the records and IDs of all people they registered in their archives.


...

The rest of the debate is so typical for creation of any “conspiracy theory”.

For people who “have not been there it never happened”.

Quite like with ET Contact or anything else of importance. People on other continents can not judge the situation at all - think Nanjing massacre or famine in Bengal,
millions of people died but how much do we know about it.

Even on the same continent, some people always try to live protecting themselves and their children from whatever is going on , hoping to trush them to whatever new world may come.
Lots more people grow up in sweet ignorance than in the know is still fact rather than fiction. Some people will live in their ignorance forever because “it doesn’t exist on their timeline” and they can’t approve.

The second lesson from this to take is people fail on their sword at the end of the day.


Those who create madness go mad to get out of the loop they’ve created. While almost everyone goes mad in wars and all suffer,
it’s almost too late to talk about those things


if they weren’t going on elsewhere now, and at all times and we weren’t struggling to stop them ongoing.



🥣

[Cosmored]

I'll be a little busy for a few days. For now I'll ask you to address this post that you keep ignoring.

(post #286)
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1380687

[loungelizard]

Posted by Agape (here)

The names of victims were written on the walls even.

They were known to other people as well. They weren’t nameless crowd of nobodies.

Beautifully put, Agape. So many casually dismiss human tragedy of the Holocaust and play games, manipulating abstract facts and figures.

Your words remind me of John Donne's poem - "any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind."

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Cosmored (here)
I'll be a little busy for a few days. For now I'll ask you to address this post that you keep ignoring.

(post #286)
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1380687

I make it a rule to avoid commenting on topics I don't know much about.

[Cosmored]

All your arguments are based on mainstream info. I posted some stuff on the mainstream.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1379571

You seem to have unshakable faith in mainstream sources. What do you think of the info in the above post?


In this post I gave a rebuttal to your post. You never gave a counter-rebuttal.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1378364


I'm not in a position to know who's telling the truth about the gas vans. The alternative version might turn out to be wrong on that. Anyway, there are all these testimonies that lean toward there not having been any gas chambers.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1381338

What do you think of them?


This is from post #299.

If that was indeed the case, the IHR would not have lost in the case of Mermelstein V IHR, and Irving would not have experienced such a crushing defeat in his suit against Lipstadt.

Both lost. When the evidence was presented and considered, one judge stated that gas chambers were “simply a fact”.

Do you consider the judge's having said that the gas chambers were simply a fact to be proof that they really existed?
Do you think that David Irving was treated fairly in the trial? Do you think it's possible that judges and juries can be biased and can come to erroneous conclusions?

[Cosmored]

From post #284.

Metapedia is not a reliable source

I responded with this.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1380687


You then said this.

I make it a rule to avoid commenting on topics I don't know much about.

If you look at the proof that Apollo was hoax, you'll see that the Wikipedia info was written by paid sophists who didn't even believe their own arguments and the Metapedia info was written by objective truth-seekers.

Do you trust Wikipedia? Do you think its info is objective?

[Cosmored]

I'd like to get loungelizard's opinion on this.

You probably know about the depleted uranium controversy.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/deplet...erview/5605215

Iraq War Crimes- Depleted Uranium 1 of 4
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...D84335F2BB444B

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6262534D3EDA7B

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...B&&FORM=VDRVSR

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE


Whistleblower Dr. Doug Rokke on Depleted Uranium Ammunition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlO-U6bIbRs

https://www.google.com/search?q=depl...w=1366&bih=657


Here's the official US government position on Depleted Uranium.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land...9_bt170-99.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RAND REVIEW INDICATES NO EVIDENCE OF HARMFUL HEALTH EFFECTS FROM DEPLETED URANIUM
The Department of Defense announced today the release of a RAND scientific literature review that indicates no evidence of harmful health effects directly linked to depleted uranium exposures at levels experienced by Gulf War veterans.

The report, "A Review of the Scientific Literature as it Pertains to Gulf War Illnesses: Volume 7 Depleted Uranium," is the latest report commissioned by the office of the special assistant for Gulf War illnesses. The report responds to veterans' concerns that depleted uranium might be the cause of some of their illnesses.

The report states that there are no peer reviewed published reports of detectable increases of cancer or other negative health effects from radiation exposure to inhaled or ingested natural uranium at levels far exceeding those likely in the Gulf. This is mainly because the body is very effective at eliminating ingested and inhaled uranium and because the low radioactivity of natural or depleted uranium means that the mass of uranium needed for significant internal exposure is virtually impossible to obtain. Large variations in exposure to radioactivity from natural uranium in the normal environment have not been associated with negative health effects.

Exposure to uranium at high doses can cause kidney problems. However, no increase in kidney disease has been observed in relatively large occupational populations chronically exposed to natural uranium at concentrations above normal ambient levels.

Researchers at the Baltimore VA Medical Center are following the group of Gulf War Veterans with the greatest exposure to depleted uranium, veterans with embedded fragments. Although these individuals have an array of health problems, many of which are related to their combat injuries, researchers say "To date no manifestations of kidney disease attributable to the chemical toxicity of depleted uranium have been found; neither do these individuals appear to have manifestations attributable to radiation effects."

RAND is a nonprofit institution with a long history of independent research. RAND had experts review the literature, including Dr. Naomi Harley, an authority on radiation physics, Dr. Ernest Foulkes, a heavy metal toxicologist, and Dr. Lee Hilborne, a pathologist. Their review encompassed literature relating to both radiation and heavy metal toxicity risks published or accepted for publication in peer-reviewed journals, books, government publications and conference proceedings.

This paper, as well as the RAND literature review on oil well fires and the Defense Department's environmental exposure report on depleted uranium are posted on the GulfLINK web site, at http//www.gulflink.osd.mil.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr1..._bt170-99.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you see that the info from the sources you use should be taken with a grain of salt?


edit
------------------------------------

Here's another good one.

Leuren Moret: Global Nuclear Coverup (Vol #2)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...3&&FORM=VDRVSR

[loungelizard]

Posted by Cosmored (here)
All your arguments are based on mainstream info. I posted some stuff on the mainstream.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1379571

You seem to have unshakable faith in mainstream sources. What do you think of the info in the above post?

Which info in particular? You have pasted 11 links in that post.

Posted by Cosmored;1382868In this post I gave a rebuttal to your post. You never gave a counter-rebuttal.
[url
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1378364&viewfull=1#post1378364[/url]

What am I rebutting? You have pasted 14 links in that post.

Posted by Cosmored (here)
I'm not in a position to know who's telling the truth about the gas vans. The alternative version might turn out to be wrong on that.

Are you going to research the evidence and reach a conclusion about the use of gas vans by the Einsatzgruppen?

Posted by Cosmored (here)
Anyway, there are all these testimonies that lean toward there not having been any gas chambers.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1381338

What do you think of them?

Again, you have posted a link to over a dozen sites. What am I supposed to be looking at?

I looked at your first link which took me to the Zundel trial. Do you really expect me to read through 22 witness statements? I did, in good faith, do a bit of research
about the first - Ditleib Felderer - to see what he had to say. Wow. What a disturbing experience that was. Would anyone seriously consider him to be an reliable, expert witness
or take anything he had to say on the Holocaust seriously? He clearly holds an extreme ideology and is consumed with hatred. A quick precis:

• He wrote a pamphlet entitled: “Please Accept This Hair of a Gassed Victim” which he sent to Jews telling them to send their hair to Auschwitz museum along with their
  pulled teeth, dust from their vacuum cleaners, broken specs, empty tin cans …
• He attached condoms to a pamphlet about Anne Frank that he wrote and sent to Holocaust survivors.
• He actually claimed that because there was a swimming pool/water reservoir, an orchestra, a theatre etc at Auschwitz, it was nothing more than a happy holiday camp.
• He was found guilty of libelling Mel Mermelstein, sending him disgusting items and writings: the jury awarded Mel over $5m in punitive and compensatory damages.
• He mailed snippets of hair to Jews throughout Europe, asking them if these can be proven to be hair from a gassed Jew. He has written many disgusting tracts involving
  sex and Nazi murder, one of which speculates about how cyanide gas influences the female sexual organs.
• He claimed to have “discovered” that only 203 Jehovah’s Witnesses were murdered by the Third Reich: in reality, more than 60,000 were killed for their faith (his 203 figure
  refers only to those put to death for refusing to do military service
• He appeared in court wearing long white underwear.

Posted by Cosmored (here)
Do you consider the judge's having said that the gas chambers were simply a fact to be proof that they really existed?

No. The evidence presented at the trial proved that the gas chambers existed.

Posted by Cosmored (here)
Do you think that David Irving was treated fairly in the trial?

Yes.

Posted by Cosmored (here)
Do you think it's possible that judges and juries can be biased and can come to erroneous conclusions?

Yes.

[loungelizard]

Posted by Cosmored (here)
Do you trust Wikipedia? Do you think its info is objective?

No. All tertiary sources are useful tools but not always reliable.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Cosmored (here)
I'd like to get loungelizard's opinion on this.

You probably know about the depleted uranium controversy.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/deplet...erview/5605215

Iraq War Crimes- Depleted Uranium 1 of 4
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...D84335F2BB444B

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6262534D3EDA7B

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...B&&FORM=VDRVSR

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE


Whistleblower Dr. Doug Rokke on Depleted Uranium Ammunition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlO-U6bIbRs

https://www.google.com/search?q=depl...w=1366&bih=657


Here's the official US government position on Depleted Uranium.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land...9_bt170-99.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RAND REVIEW INDICATES NO EVIDENCE OF HARMFUL HEALTH EFFECTS FROM DEPLETED URANIUM
The Department of Defense announced today the release of a RAND scientific literature review that indicates no evidence of harmful health effects directly linked to depleted uranium exposures at levels experienced by Gulf War veterans.

The report, "A Review of the Scientific Literature as it Pertains to Gulf War Illnesses: Volume 7 Depleted Uranium," is the latest report commissioned by the office of the special assistant for Gulf War illnesses. The report responds to veterans' concerns that depleted uranium might be the cause of some of their illnesses.

The report states that there are no peer reviewed published reports of detectable increases of cancer or other negative health effects from radiation exposure to inhaled or ingested natural uranium at levels far exceeding those likely in the Gulf. This is mainly because the body is very effective at eliminating ingested and inhaled uranium and because the low radioactivity of natural or depleted uranium means that the mass of uranium needed for significant internal exposure is virtually impossible to obtain. Large variations in exposure to radioactivity from natural uranium in the normal environment have not been associated with negative health effects.

Exposure to uranium at high doses can cause kidney problems. However, no increase in kidney disease has been observed in relatively large occupational populations chronically exposed to natural uranium at concentrations above normal ambient levels.

Researchers at the Baltimore VA Medical Center are following the group of Gulf War Veterans with the greatest exposure to depleted uranium, veterans with embedded fragments. Although these individuals have an array of health problems, many of which are related to their combat injuries, researchers say "To date no manifestations of kidney disease attributable to the chemical toxicity of depleted uranium have been found; neither do these individuals appear to have manifestations attributable to radiation effects."

RAND is a nonprofit institution with a long history of independent research. RAND had experts review the literature, including Dr. Naomi Harley, an authority on radiation physics, Dr. Ernest Foulkes, a heavy metal toxicologist, and Dr. Lee Hilborne, a pathologist. Their review encompassed literature relating to both radiation and heavy metal toxicity risks published or accepted for publication in peer-reviewed journals, books, government publications and conference proceedings.

This paper, as well as the RAND literature review on oil well fires and the Defense Department's environmental exposure report on depleted uranium are posted on the GulfLINK web site, at http//www.gulflink.osd.mil.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr1..._bt170-99.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you see that the info from the sources you use should be taken with a grain of salt?


edit
------------------------------------

Here's another good one.

Leuren Moret: Global Nuclear Coverup (Vol #2)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...3&&FORM=VDRVSR

Nice diversion attempt
Maybe start a thread on that?


And

[loungelizard]

Cosmored: although you still haven't managed to answer question 3 - how 6 million Jews disappeared - and haven't explained where you got your figure of 300,000 from, here is question 4.

What do you think the Wannsee Conference was all about?

[Cosmored]

Nice diversion attempt
Maybe start a thread on that?

You're ignoring the point I'm making. That's an example of an obvious lie by the US government. The US government tells gigantic lies. Almost all of your info comes from the American mainstream. You're not going to impress the viewers of this forum by quoting from the American mainstream.

What do you think the Wannsee Conference was all about?

This is the first I've heard of it. All we have is second-hand info. There's the mainstream version...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

...and there's the revisionist version.
https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference
https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=013772...generic..0.0.0.

I'm not in a position to know what the truth is. One would have to have been an insider back then to know what the truth is.

[Cosmored]

although you still haven't managed to answer question 3 - how 6 million Jews disappeared - and haven't explained where you got your figure of 300,000 from,

This tactic is called "Playing Dumb".

https://www.clubconspiracy.com/count...ues-t4702.html
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
--------------------------------------------------------

You're ignoring what I posted on this.

http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/en.../dsmrdtoc.html

file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/Report%20ICRC%201939-1947%20-%20scan%20&%20summary.pdf
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------
In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the
delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis
occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the
Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like
many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence
on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend. Like
the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to
indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day.
So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the
Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so
that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps
(Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried
out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes
nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths,
showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to
have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).
--------------------------------------------

You ignore or play down the stuff I post that shows the mainstream media cannot be trusted. You keep posting mainstream info as if it were the voice of God.

I think the info I posted on the idea that six million Jews disappeared pokes a big hole in the official story. The viewers are reading the info so your ignoring it isn't going to sway them.


edit
--------------------------------------------

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=013772...generic..0.0.0.

http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/5.html
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------
To summarize what has been said with respect to Jewish population statistics: the problem of compiling such statistics is formidable even without political interference or pressure. Moreover, in the demographic argument for a five or six million drop in world Jewish population, the sources and authorities for the figures used are Communist and Jewish and thus, by the nature of the problem we are examining, must be considered essentially useless. In addition, the post-war figures for the United States are demonstrably too low by a significant amount.
--------------------------------------------


another edit
--------------------------------------------

I just came across this but I've hardly had time to even scan it. I'm going to post it anyway.
http://thesixmillionfactorfiction.blogspot.com/

I hope I don't regret it.

[loungelizard]

Posted by Cosmored (here)
Almost all of your info comes from the American mainstream.

Why would you assume that?

What do you think the Wannsee Conference was all about?

Posted by Cosmored (here)
This is the first I've heard of it.

How intriguing. It appears that you know very little about the events that you are trying so desperately to deny. It's amazing to me that someone would feel qualified to voice their strongly-held opinions on a topic while being ignorant of one of its key events.

To know nothing of such an important meeting - documented and minuted by the Nazis - to coordinate the details of enacting the Final Solution to the Jewish Question (Endlösung der Judenfrage)
shows that you have an extremely superficial understanding of the history of the Holocaust.

Such a lack of knowledge makes your protestations that you are only wanting to find the truth sound hollow and disingenuous: you clearly have no interest in examining evidence in a search for reality,
as shown by your disinterest in such a momentous event as the Wannsee Conference. Perhaps your purpose on this forum is to push your chosen agenda - the rehabilitation of Hitler and the ideology of hatred…

Posted by Cosmored (here)
All we have is second-hand info.

The Wannsee Protocol (the minutes of the conference) is not a secondary source. It was created by the Nazis at the time.

Posted by Cosmored (here)
I'm not in a position to know what the truth is. One would have to have been an insider back then to know what the truth is.

Does that 'logic' apply to the whole of history?

It's obviously not possible to go back in time and, given all of history is in the past, therefore we cannot experience it ourselves. All that is left is sources that tell us what happened. BUT. If a number of
different sources say the same thing, and the event fits into the overall 'flow' of history, and its consequences are what we would expect them to be, then beyond a reasonable doubt an occurrence
is held to be true.

As I'm sure you know, history does not depend on a single viewpoint but a sum of all - the convergence of all available evidence. By looking at many different perspectives, a significant amount of the
whole picture will emerge. Will it be the whole picture? Probably not. But will some major component of this whole picture be missing or completely false? That's very doubtful.

We can’t be 100% sure of anything in history, in the same way that we can’t be sure of anything in life completely - our memories could be completely false, and often are. We can, however, get pretty
close when multiple sources - documents, photos, film footage, physical artefacts, testimony etc - all cross check.

Without evidence, it’s impossible to know what the truth of the past is.
With evidence, it’s possible to some extent.
With mountains of evidence from a wide variety of sources, we've got a good chance of knowing what the truth of the past is. And millions of pieces of evidence exist to tell the truth of the Holocaust.



The sad irony of your statement is that there are thousands of 'insiders' who have told us what the truth is - the eye witnesses, bystanders, perpetrators and survivors - whom you have dismissed as liars.

[loungelizard]

Posted by Cosmored (here)

although you still haven't managed to answer question 3 - how 6 million Jews disappeared - and haven't explained where you got your figure of 300,000 from,

This tactic is called "Playing Dumb".

You may genuinely believe you have answered my question, but you haven’t. The link you posted merely takes me to the table of contents for
“Report of the Evidence in the Canadian 'False News' Trial of Ernst Zündel” and the PDF download you posted doesn’t work.

I’d be grateful if you could pay me the courtesy of answering the question in your own words rather than merely pasting links to the website
of yet another neo Nazi (Zundel is on the right).

[Cosmored]

How intriguing. It appears that you know very little about the events that you are trying so desperately to deny. It's amazing to me that someone would feel qualified to voice their strongly-held opinions on a topic while being ignorant of one of its key events.

I never claimed I knew a lot. One doesn't have to know a lot to recognize some pretty big holes in the official story.

(post #269)
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1379688


My not knowing all the details doesn't make the above info go away. Testimonies from people saying there were gas chambers doesn't make it go away either.

[Cosmored]

Here's some more stuff on confessions.

https://thesixmillionfactorfiction.b...nfessions.html
(excerpt)
-----------------------------------------------------
“At the present time, it is impossible for anyone to contest the traditional extermination story in a German court. Revisionist historian Robert Faurisson profiled the situation perfectly when he pointed out that ‘Holocaust denial’ is ‘an offense which is punishable with up to five years imprisonment. In Germany, no exonerating evidence may be introduced in such trials, since the same evidence would constitute denial as well and would merely lead to another criminal indictment of the defendant and his lawyer.’”
This was in fact what happened to the lawyer who defended well-known Holocaust revisionist Ernst Zundel in a German court, Sylvia Stolz. In 2008, Stolz was sentenced to three and a half years in prison and banned from practicing law for five years after declaring in court during the Zundel trial that the “Holocaust was the biggest lie in world history” (Deutsche Welle, German Neo-Nazi Lawyer Sentenced for Denying Holocaust, 14.01.2008).
Below: Sylvia Stolz, a German lawyer sentenced to five years in prison in 2007 for attempting to defend a client by calling the Holocaust “the biggest lie in world history.” In Germany, it is not possible to defend oneself against any charge by pointing out that the events could not have taken place as alleged. Hence, many defendants prefer to accept that events took place, but then deny personal involvement therein.
In a climate where one will be sentenced to prison just for saying that the Holocaust is untrue, is it any wonder that the accused on trial for alleged war crimes would “confess” to the existence of “gas chambers” but then try to claim that they were personally not involved?

[loungelizard]

Posted by Cosmored (here)

How intriguing. It appears that you know very little about the events that you are trying so desperately to deny. It's amazing to me that someone would feel qualified to voice their strongly-held opinions on a topic while being ignorant of one of its key events.

I never claimed I knew a lot. One doesn't have to know a lot to recognize some pretty big holes in the official story.

(post #269)
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1379688


My not knowing all the details doesn't make the above info go away. Testimonies from people saying there were gas chambers doesn't make it go away either.

It’s not a matter of knowing ‘a lot’. No one is expected to know everything.

It’s about being interested in finding the truth of a subject that you find important. I just don’t understand how you can have formed such extreme beliefs
about events that you haven’t studied - or don't seem interested in.

And the Wannsee Conference is not a trivial ‘detail’ … it’s a vital piece of the puzzle.

[Cosmored]

It’s about being interested in finding the truth of a subject that you find important. I just don’t understand how you can have formed such extreme beliefs
about events that you haven’t studied - or don't seem interested in.

And the Wannsee Conference is not a trivial ‘detail’ … it’s a vital piece of the puzzle.

I scanned it.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1383603

It's one of those cases in which there's the official version which might be a lie, and the revisionist version which also might be a lie. Second-hand info can't be used a proof. The only thing that can be used as proof is the physical evidence such as what I posted above.


I'd better post the whole thing.

https://codoh.com/library/document/t...r-illusion/en/
(excerpt)
-------------------------------
In 1988 the scientific team of Fred Leuchter (a US execution-expert "Mr Death" in gas-chamber technology) visited Poland, and concluded that the Auschwitz "gas chambers" could not possibly have functioned in the alleged manner – i.e., they were not gas chambers[2]. In the following years, others would confirm the accuracy of his seminal, "Leuchter Report" . The German chemist Germar Rudolf, who worked at the Max Plank institute for Solid State Physics, is now in jail, because he likewise measured the high levels of the cyanide in the walls of the de-lousing chambers. It happens that this gas bonds permanently with iron, and iron is present in all the cement etc of stone walls. Whereas, he found none in the walls of what were supposed to be the "gas chambers" which were mainly shower units. He thereby confirmed the work of Leuchter who likewise only found remains of the cyanide gas-insecticide in the de-lousing chambers
-------------------------------


edit
-----------------------

Here's some more stuff for the viewers to check out. Some are links from the bottom of the above article. Some are repeats.

https://codoh.com/library/document/t...vindicated/en/
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/
http://www.takeourworldback.com/shor...lfarrested.htm
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n1p23_Weber.html
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndaerial.html
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p261_Lindsey.html
https://rense.com/general68/hoss.htm
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/index.html
https://codoh.com/library/document/v...comes-true/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/h...germans-so/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/e...visionists/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/a...and-legend/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/t...st-mystery/en/
https://web.archive.org/web/20160208...document/3920/
https://codoh.com/library/document/t...h-lipstadt/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/t...lipstadt-1/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/t...-auschwitz/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/g...role-model/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/t...ed-history/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/e...f-european/en/
http://www.whale.to/b/rudolf_hoess.html

[Cosmored]

I just came across this. I've only scanned it but I'm posting it anyway.

http://www.911tv.org/Library/LB-0003...20villainy.pdf

[loungelizard]

Cosmored - instead of posting dozens of random links, could we just concentrate on one topic at a time? There are so many unanswered queries on this thread already,
why keep adding to the quagmire of misinformation? You seem to want to keep moving the goal posts making it impossible to have a focused discussion … which of course
is what you want to avoid having

Posted by Cosmored (here)
You're ignoring what I posted on this.

In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the
delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis
occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the
Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like
many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence
on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend. Like
the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to
indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day.
So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the
Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so
that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps
(Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried
out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes
nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths,
showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to
have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).

Let's look at specifics here: this except is the classic Red Cross gambit that is so beloved of deniers - and again, so easily refuted.

It's yet a another, perfect example of the barefaced and shameless deception frequently used by Holocaust deniers.



That snippet is from a report by the ICRC on facilities at camps for civilians from ‘belligerent nations’ such as those for Germans in the Near East.

It has nothing to do with Auschwitz or any other death camp, and it has nothing to do with the Jewish people deported to concentration and extermination camps from Germany, its Allied states and occupied countries.

Here is that quotation in context:

"In the first place, the delegates had to satisfy themselves that water, the chief factor in hygiene, was available in sufficient quantities. In dry districts they recommended the internees not to waste it, and gave advice for planning its use in a rational manner. Thus, in Saudi Arabia, sweet water was completely lacking, and the German and Italian internees learned how to obtain it by the evaporation and condensation of sea water. At Fayed (Egypt), water was available only for two or three hours a day, at a rate of 50 litles for each person for all requirements of the camp, which means that it was impossible to have showers.

Not only the washing places, but installations for baths, showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired and enlarged. They supplied quantities of toilet articles (linen, soap, shaving soap, blades, tooth brushes, tooth powder, etc.). At Mansurah (Egypt) German, Italian and Greek women internees were living in such a deplorable hygienic conditions that, on his first visit in 1942. the delegate gave the camp commandant a sum of 20 Egyptian pounds to meet immediate needs (purchase of insect powder, disinfectants, linen, etc.)."

• There is no evidence that any delegates of the ICRC inspected the Auschwitz camps.
  
• The Holocaust was not carried out in German camps and at sites actually inspected by the ICRC.
  
• Its delegates did not tour through Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Chelmno, Auschwitz-Birkenau or follow the Einsatzgruppen through the occupied territories.

It would therefore have been impossible for the ICRC to verify the large scale mass extermination directly from their own inspections.
They were not even given open access to concentration camps until shortly before the end of the war and - except for the fraudulent cover-up site,
Theresienstadt - camps "exclusively reserved for Jews were not open to inspections for humanitarian purposes until the end" either
(quotation from 1948 ICRC report, volume 1, p. 643).



The 1948 IRCR report does, however, mention the Holocaust several times. For example:

"At 7 a.m. the first group of one hundred women arrived - it was a terrible and pathetic sight to see these poor creatures, famished, dirty, frightened and suspicious - they could not believe they were to be set free, and took me for an agent of the SS, sent to fetch them for the gas chamber."
(Report of the International Committee Of The Red Cross On Its Activities During The Second World War, Volume 1, p. 625)