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Thread: It is ego that brought you here

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    Lightbulb It is ego that brought you here

    It is Ego who imagined, authored and designed The Project Avalon Forum.

    It is Ego that thought, wrote and posted the start of this thread.

    It is Ego that brought you here.

    It is Ego that wonders why it is 'here' at all.

    It is Ego that tempts Ego to not post this thread.

    It is Ego that loves, it is ego that hates.

    It is Ego that creates and ego that destroys.

    It is Ego that accepts or rejects this idea.

    And, alas, it is Ego that wishes you all a wonderful and blessed Easter!

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Time for ego to leave the drivers seat and let spirit drive for a while. I'm not particularly happy the state of things ego has driven us to. That includes religion.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    The ego has done many great things as well,....

    Presenting the idea that the spirit is capable of 'driving' is just one such example.

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Is it the Ego which defines 'Ego'?
    Mercy, forgiveness, and compassion are the most virtuous forms of love
    Let your heart not be hardened by injustice and tribulation

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Balance is the word ... it keeps ego in check ,
    Raiding the Matrix One Mind at a Time ...

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    There's a beautiful instruction on the nature of the Self - and the way it loves it-Self found in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad , as conversation between then famous sage Yajnavalkya and his wife ( and student ) Maitreyi .

    Apologies if the passage is not easy to bite through but it's worth deeper reflection ( fast reading won't do the job in this case ) ,
    here the core verse is interpreted and explained by Swami Krishnanada , late pundit of Shivandada ashram , Saraswati lineage .

    5 .sa hovāca: na vā are patyuḥ kāmāya patiḥ priyo bhavati, ātmanas tu kāmāya patiḥ priyo bhavati: na vā are jāyāyai kāmāya jāyā priyā bhavati, ātmanas tu kāmāya jāyā priyā bhavati; na vā are pῡtrāṇāṁ kāmāya putrāḥ priyā bhavanti, ātmanas tu kāmāya putrāḥ priyā bhavanti; na vā are vittasya kāmāya vittam priyam bhavati, ātmanas tu kāmāya vittam priyam bhavati; na vā are brahmaṇaḥ kāmāya brahma priyam bhavati, ātmanas tu kāmāya brahma priyam bhavati; na vā are kṣatrasya kāmāya kṣatram priyam bhavati ātmanas tu kāmāya kṣatram priyam bhavati; na vā are lokānāṁ kāmāya lokāḥ priyā bhavanti, ātmanas tu kāmāya lokāḥ priyā bhavanti; na vā are devānāṁ kāmāya devāḥ priyā bhavanti, ātmanas tu kāmāya devāḥ priyā bhavanti; na vā are bhῡtānāṁ kāmāya bhῡtāni priyāṇi bhavanti, ātmanas tu kāmāya bhῡtāni priyāṇi bhavanti; na vā are sarvasya kāmāya sarvam priyam bhavati, ātmanas tu kāmāya sarvam priyam bhavati; ātmā vā are draṣṭavyaḥ śrotavyo mantavyo nididhyāsitavyaḥ: maitreyī ātmano vā are darśanena śravaṇena matyā vijñānenedaṁ sarvaṁ viditam.
    Sa hovāca: na vā are patyuḥ kāmāya patiḥ priyo bhavati, ātmanas tu kāmāya patiḥ priyo bhavati, etc.:



    Quote This is a very long passage, all of which brings out the point that the connection which a mind has with any particular object is inscrutable, if it is taken literally. It has an esoteric, deep, profound significance. A mind cannot be really connected with an object if the object is externally placed outside the mind, because the mind and the object are dissimilar in their character. The object is physical; the mind is psychological. The mind is internal; the object is external. The mind is psychological and the object is physical. A connection between these two is unthinkable, and so all affections of the mind, positive or negative, are certain internal operations that occur within the mind and bear no real, vital relation to objects outside. But, why does it appear that they have some connection if the connection is not really there? Why do we appear to be happy in our mind when certain objects are possessed; desirable things are owned by us – as we think – in our minds? What is the meaning of owning, possessing, enjoying, loving, etc.? What is the actual significance of this idea in the mind? Why is it that suddenly there is a surge of happiness in the mind when one feels there is a possession of desirable value? "This happiness arises on account of a confusion in the mind." This is what the Sage Yājñavalkya will tell us.

    This is a happiness which is, tentatively, the outcome of a transformation that takes place in the mind, on account of an imagined connection of the mind with the object that is desired for and possessed. The happiness is not the condition of the object that is possessed. It is a condition of the mind. But, that condition which is the prerequisite of the condition of happiness is made possible by a new notion that arises in the mind in respect of the object, which is a very intricate psychological point. Why does such an idea arise in the mind? Why is it that you regard certain objects as lovable and others as otherwise? What is it that makes a particular object desirable, and acceptable, and valuable, and capable of becoming instrumental in creating this satisfaction in the mind? That is a very great secret. How is it possible that a particular, imaginary connection of the mind with an externally placed object can become the source of happiness within? This happens on account of the presence of something else which the mind cannot cognise, and as long as the presence of this particular something is not recognised, there would be sorrow as an outcome, eventually or immediately, as a result of this external relationship. There is a notion in the minds of people that happiness arises on account of the contact of the mind with desirable objects. That this is not true, is a great point that is made out here. Happiness does not merely arise on account of the contact of the mind with an object which is desirable. For this purpose another question may have to be answered. We shall leave aside, for the time being, the question as to how a desirable object becomes instrumental in creating satisfaction in the mind. Why does an object appear desirable at all, is the primary question. Then only comes the question as to how it becomes instrumental in creating happiness.

    The desirability of the object is, again, a condition of the mind. It is a perception of the mind in the contour of the object, of certain characters which are necessitated by the mind. The mind is a pattern of consciousness. You may call it a focused form of consciousness, a shape taken by consciousness, something like the shape the waters of the ocean may take in the surge of the waves. A particular arrangement of consciousness in space and time may be said to be a mind, whether it is a human mind or otherwise. This particular arrangement of consciousness is naturally finite. Every particularised shape or form is finite, merely because of the fact that it is so particularised. The particularisation of the mind is the isolation of that character of the mind from other characters which are equally existent elsewhere in other objects. When I say there is such a thing called 'red', it means there can be other things which are not 'red'. So, a particular state of mind becomes finite in its nature on account of other such conditions or different conditions being made possible. So, the finitude of the mind becomes a source of restlessness to the mind. Every restlessness is psychological and is due to a finitude felt in the mind. But this finitude brings about a limitation that is imposed upon itself by the factor that is finitude itself. You want to overstep the limit of the boundaries that are set upon you. So, the mind tries to jump over its own skin, as it were, in trying to grab objects which it imagines to have the characteristics which are the counterparts of what it feels it has lost. The finitude of the mind, it is felt, can be made good by the characters that the mind imagines to be existing in the objects that are desirable. It imagines, for certain reasons, that a particular object, or a particular group of objects, or a certain set of circumstances are made in such a way that they have characters which are exactly the complement, or supplement, or the counterpart, or the correlative of its own finitude. Or, you may say, it is something like a square rod beholding a square hole in its presence, of a similar shape. If the square rod sees a round hole, there cannot be attraction. If the round rod sees a round hole, there can be attraction. There should be a counterpart of values for attraction to arise. One finitude should be believed capable of being made good by another finitude, and then there is attraction.

    The world is made in such a way that there are infinite varieties of finitude. And one set of values, which goes to make up the finitude of a particular mind, becomes the source of summoning the opposite of these values which are imagined to exist in another finitude, say, an object. So the world is said to be relative in the sense that everything is related to everything else. Unless a particular finite situation is related to another particular finite situation, which is going to be the complementary aspect of it, there cannot be a sense of fullness. The sense of fullness is the source of satisfaction. Satisfaction and sense of fullness are identical. When you feel incomplete in yourself, you are unhappy; when you feel complete, you are happy. The feeling of incompleteness arises on account of the notion that something is lacking in you. The sense of lack of something arises because there is a sudden emergence of certain notions in the mind, in respect of values, of which it becomes conscious. And so, it cannot be that a particular person will be feeling the same sense of finitude at all times. It does not mean that you will be wanting the same thing throughout your life. The idea of finitude goes on changing as you rise in the process of evolution. As the mind gets transformed gradually, day by day, stage by stage, in the process of evolution, the requirements of the mind also change, and this is why every day you desire different objects, not the same object. You cannot have one particular thing today and be happy forever. That is not possible, because the mind cannot rest in one condition. It cannot rest because there is evolution. There is physical evolution and psychological evolution. Both are taking place simultaneously. So, this perception of a counterpart of the finitude of a mind in a given condition is caused by the desirability of an object felt by the mind. Then what happens? Immediately the mind says, 'Here is the source of my fulfilment', and wishes to come in contact with it as soon as possible so that it may become a part of its being.

    The desire of the mind for a particular desirable object is a desire to get united with that object in its being. So, the idea of possession is something very strong, indeed. It is actually a desire to get united with the object, so that you become physically, psychologically whole in being, and not merely in an external relation. This condition is however not possible, as you cannot enter into the being of any object. Therefore, there is not such satisfaction even after the fulfilment of a desire. No desire can be fulfilled eternally, whatever be the effort that you put forth, because it is not possible for you to enter into the being of that object. The intention is good, but it is impracticable. Nobody can enter into the existence of an object, because the object is externally placed in space and time. So, it is a futile attempt on the part of the mind to enter into any object. Then there is a struggle on the part of the mind to possess the object; become the object; make it a part of its being by assimilation of its being into its own. However it is a fruitless attempt, because the operation of space and time will prevent the entry of one into the other. That is why this world is a sorrow, and it shall be a sorrow. There shall be a perpetual effort on the part of people to grab objects and try to enjoy them. But they cannot enjoy them. There can only be a mere appearance of enjoyment, not real enjoyment.

    The love that you feel in respect of an object is in fact the love that you feel towards that which is called perfection and completeness. It is not really a love for the object. You have thoroughly misunderstood the whole point, even when you are clinging to a particular object as if it is the source of satisfaction. The mind does not want an object; it wants completeness of being. That is what it is searching for. Thus, when there is a promise of the fulfilment that it seeks, through the perception of an object that appears to be its counterpart, there is a sudden feeling that fullness is going to come, and there is a satisfaction even on the perception of that object; and there is an apparent satisfaction, just by the imagined possession of it together with the yearning for actual possession. So, what is it that you are asking for? You are not asking for any object or thing; you are asking for a condition of completeness in your being. "So, my dear friend," says Yājñavalkya, "nobody is dear. No object can be regarded as lovable or desirable. It is something else that you love and are asking for, but by a notion that is completely misconstrued, you believe that the object is loved."

    So, what you love is a completeness of being which is reflected in the condition felt to exist between yourself and the object concerned. You must mark this point. What you love is only the condition that you imagine to be present in the state of the possession of the object. But that state can never be reached, for the reason already mentioned. So, nothing is dear in this world. What is dear is the condition which you intend to create, or project in your own being by an imagined contact with the object. So, not one person is dear in this world, but what is dear is that condition which is imagined to be present after the possession of that object or that relationship.

    Now, what are these objects? Every blessed thing. Yājñavalkya goes on with his exposition to Maitreyī: Neither the husband is dear to the wife, nor the wife is dear to the husband. What is dear is a condition which they try to bring about in their mind by that relation. That condition is always missed, and so the happiness expected never comes.

    After enumerating many things that are usually conceived as dear and desirable in this world, but which are actually not the source of real satisfaction to a person, Yājñavalkya says, nothing external can give you happiness, because it is not the thing alone that is the source of happiness but something else which is always missing due to a confusion of thought – na vā are sarvasya kāmāya sarvam priyam bhavati, ātmanas tu kāmāya sarvam priyam bhavati: For the desire of the Infinite, which is the Self, everything appears to be desirable. Here, the word Ātman is to be understood in the sense of the Totality of Being. It is the Selfhood of all beings, a great subject which we have studied in detail in the Fourth Section of the First Chapter. For the sake of this Supreme Absolute, which is the Self of all things, you are unknowingly asking for 'things'. You have missed the point in asking for the things of the world. So it is a wild goose chase from birth to death, nothing coming forth, ultimately. You come to this world crying, and you go crying, because you have missed the whole point in the tremendous effort that you have put forth throughout your life, entirely for nothing – ātmanas tu kāmāya jāyā priyā bhavati.

    Ātmā vā are draṣṭavyaḥ śrotavyo mantavyo nididhyāsitavyaḥ: "O, Maitreyī, it is the Ātman that is to be beheld; it is the Ātman that is to be known; it is the Ātman that is to be searched for; it is the Ātman which is to be heard about; it is the Ātman which is to be thought in the mind; it is the Ātman which is to be meditated upon. There is nothing else worthwhile thinking, nothing else worthwhile possessing, because nothing worthwhile exists, other than This."

    Maitreyī ātmano vā are darśanena śravaṇena matyā vijñānenedaṁ sarvaṁ viditam: "If you can grasp the significance of what this Ātman is, you have known everything; and then, you have possessed everything; you have become all things. There is nothing left to desire afterwards. And if this is not to be achieved, what is going to be your fate? Suppose you do not have this knowledge, everything shall leave you one day or the other. Today this goes, tomorrow that goes; and the history of humanity has told us repeatedly that you cannot lay trust upon anything. You have seen things coming and things going; today it is there, tomorrow it is not there. You cannot know what will happen tomorrow, and what will be the status and state of things at any moment of time. Everything shall desert a person if he is bereft of this knowledge. Because they are not a part of his being, how can they be with him always? That which is not 'you' cannot be possessed by you. That which is not 'you' really, cannot be a property of yours. That which is not 'you' cannot be with you always. Therefore it shall leave you. But why do you cry if anything goes away, and there is bereavement, loss, etc.? It is quite natural to lose them; it is exactly as things ought to be. Things which are outside you do not belong to you; therefore it is no use crying over them. What is the difficulty, what is the problem, and why are you worrying about it? If they become 'you' they cannot leave you, because you cannot be dispossessed of yourself. You are dispossessed of only those things which are not yours. This point, you must understand."
    http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/br...had_II-04.html


    In short the verse says ... It's not for the love of your husband that you love your husband, it's for the love of your Self that husband becomes dear ,
    it's not for love of your wife that your wife is dear to you , it's for love of your Self she is dear to you, it's not for love of your sons and daughters they 're dear to you, it's for the love of your Self they're dear to you,
    it's not for the wealth that wealth is dear to you, it's the love of your Self that wealth is dear to you,
    it's not for the love of the world/s that the world/s are dear to you, it's for the love of your Self why these worlds are dear to you,
    it's not for the Gods that Gods are dear to you but for the love of your Self Gods become dear to you,
    it's not for all the Beings they are dear to you ..it's for the love of your Self they become dear to you,
    like that .. everything you love ..is endeared by you for the love of your innermost Self ,
    so also by seeing , hearing, thinking and contemplating of your Self all the other objects of affections are encountered and accomplished, oh Maitreyi



    The Self - specifically referred to here is Atman - the Ati- Mana- the one beyond Mind




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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)
    The Self - specifically referred to here is Atman - the Ati- Mana- the one beyond Mind
    Taking all you have presented, would it be accurate to state that the ego (mind) 'drives' where the spirit (Atman) 'navigates/directs'?

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Quote Posted by Shezbeth (here)
    Quote Posted by Agape (here)
    The Self - specifically referred to here is Atman - the Ati- Mana- the one beyond Mind
    Taking all you have presented, would it be accurate to state that the ego (mind) 'drives' where the spirit (Atman) 'navigates/directs'?
    In absolute sense yes ...from very 'bird perspective' , they're one .

    In relative sense though .. the 'ego mind' is often described as drunk crazy monkey .. it keeps yapping, screaming for what it truly wants, grabbing fruits, tasting and throwing them away, in short it behaves like the one who 'knows not'.

    I think the basic difference between the two is that while the higher Self , the Atman is the Knower ,
    the lower self , the 'ego mind' for whatevers' sake pretends ignorance . The ultimate tool of ignorance , being so powerful, is ignoring its own knowledge, wisdom, and dwelling on 'I don't know really and never will' .

    It's the Knower versus the Skeptic of the Knower .

    Sometimes of course .. the Skeptic pleases the Knower, the ego pleases the higher mind .. even then .. it takes all credentials for itself .

    When the Ego finally gives up on the 'spasm' and understands its own vanity .. it's one with the Knower .. and knowledge is what remains .


    Not sure I've got it through at the moment

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    If mind is a computer , ego would be the security flaw that has been actively exploited by MK ultra (hackers) in order to control you.

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    I agree, and the premise you (Agape) suggest is consistent with my own perception of the dynamic.

    For purpose of discussion however, I recall another of the Upanishads; specifically the parable of the horse-drawn carriage. This parable would seem to indicate that the Atman is a passenger who's experience is a result of (at the mercy of) the drives of the senses coupled with the will of the mind. This parable would seem consistent with the sentiment expressed by Dedukshyn, though places the Atman in the position of victim and/or subject of forces beyond its control, which I cannot agree with.

    I find/agree that the mind drives the body by way/response to/of the senses, but I assert/agree that the Atman drives the mind, albeit indirectly. I don't prefer such terms, but since we're on them already,....
    Last edited by Shezbeth; 21st April 2014 at 00:30.

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Quote Posted by Shezbeth (here)

    For purpose of discussion however, I recall another of the Upanishads; specifically the parable of the horse-drawn carriage. This parable would seem to indicate that the Atman is a passenger who's experience is a result of (at the mercy of) the drives of the senses coupled with the will of the mind. This parable would seem consistent with the sentiment expressed by Dedukshyn, though places the Atman in the position of victim and/or subject of forces beyond its control, which I cannot agree with.

    I think that in that parable, Atman is the 'charioteer ' rather than 'passenger' , the carriage is the body where mind abides and horses are the senses .. and the martingales are the ego used to control the horse .

    However .. DeDukshyn maybe right that for many people , the Spirit is not more than passenger and the 'en-spirited' reins are Self-lessly running the trolley .

    In that case I suggest , ask for the one whom you carry ...

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    I think I should not overextend the example tonight else I could also come to conclusion ( in accordance with 'modern' scientific views ) that while the carriage is the body , Mind is the soft cushions

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Quote Posted by Shezbeth (here)
    The ego has done many great things as well,....

    Presenting the idea that the spirit is capable of 'driving' is just one such example.
    Hehe true, it did, but it doesn't mean balance isn't also in instinct. Where the rational of the ego is subsided, yet full conscious decisions based on instinct of spirit are in charge except when physical survival or extremely low level rational thought is required.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 21st April 2014 at 00:32.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    People with less ego find themselves being abused more.
    Abusers try to destroy the ego of others in order to feel validated.
    Children suffer the most because the ego is not developed.

    I think it's a very important thing to value.
    We all have a self whether or not we all have a dick, for example.

    (Sorry I am in a bad mood about marriage today)

    Yet all too often our kids and spouses are treated as if they don't have hopes, dreams, expectations, a connection with the world.
    A lot of people want to see themselves as special or more connected/valid/vital than others.

    It is as Agape said, without guidance, a crazy monkey -- but under the right conditions, one with Knowledge.

    I am not quite old enough to have reached that point.

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    No, the stork brought me here. The ego was already here and met me in the garden where the stork dropped me. It had my mother's face. Later it took my face. I notice my own face is changing and the ego is looking less and less like me. I am sure it is also getting smaller and more frail. It will soon too weak to carry anyone. Eventually it will just disappear.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    The ego in starting the spiritual search---wanting to be special -- wanting to be an enlightened ego--has signed its own death warrant.
    Not that it ever existed anyway.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    The ego in starting the spiritual search---wanting to be special -- wanting to be an enlightened ego--has signed its own death warrant.
    Not that it ever existed anyway.

    Chris
    Or is driven there by fear. Haha. Who would that be? This thread is a great way to keep it busy,
    while Spirit works on cracking the shell. It exists for as long as it says it does!

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    There is nothing wrong with the concept of ego. Ego is what defines you as an individual. However, unfortunately the word "ego" has been culturally overlaid with a pejorative meaning to indicate vanity or even narcissism, and as such, the bulk of the people seeking enlightenment - especially in New Age culture - thinks that ego is a bad thing which must be shed off. They couldn't be farther from the truth.

    There cannot be Yang without Yin, nor Yin without Yang. Yin and Yang are abstract keywords for the two sides of the coin of duality. These two sides are however not opposites, but rather complementary polarities. You cannot have a coin with only a single side.

    Enlightenment comprises of finding the place of Yin within Yang, and the place of Yang within Yin, and to understand how they interact with each other. That is what Creation is all about. Pure information is meaningless until it is experienced in one form or another. This is even confirmed by science, for instance in a concept from quantum physics called "the collapse of the wave function", which requires the presence of an observer to trigger the collapse. Even Albert Einstein's Theory of General Relativity postulates the role of an observer in what Einstein called "an inertial reference frame".

    And herein lies yet another lesson, little Hobbits, because Einstein's Theory of General Relativity and the study of quantum physics are both working models for making accurate scientific predictions, while at the same time they also both appear to be in absolute contradiction with one another. And yet, if they were truly opposite models, then one of them would always yield the correct results and the other would always be yielding incorrect results. But they don't. They complement each other.


    Namaste.

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    The ego in starting the spiritual search---wanting to be special -- wanting to be an enlightened ego--has signed its own death warrant.
    Not that it ever existed anyway.

    Chris
    I agree, without the instinct of the spirit, there can be no enlightenment in the equation. No matter how hard the ego "tries". I should have included that in tidbit in my previous post making distinct the "instinct" as necessary to rely on while ego is in back seat. The same instinct that guides a child's play, and a mother's unconditional love for her child. ... That is the part that has become lost to "The incessant machinations of rational thought". My 2 cents
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: It is ego that brought you here

    I once had a dream that I was a god but then I woke up.

    But...

    Did I?



    Do you ever get that sinking feeling?
    Last edited by joeecho; 21st April 2014 at 18:44.

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