Skills and Making money after the Collapse.

[Luke]

Skills and Making money after the Collapse, from SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA blog by FerFAL.
(http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2010/10/s...-collapse.html)

Now, about your question. Bicycle repair, sewing, etc, are these skills useful after a collapse? Well of course they are, but the question you want to ask yourself instead, do I want to repair bicycles or sew clothes for a living after a collapse, and the answer to that is certainly no. Why? Because there’s a lot of people already doing that, because its just not well paid. Even if you think that right now people are lazy and pretty much useless, it doesn’t mean that that situation will go on afterwards. As things get worse, it wont be just you thinking about opening a small grocery or repairing bikes and mending clothes. Competition and poverty will bring the prices down and you’ll find yourself working a lot for relatively little income. I’m not saying don’t do it, I’m just saying that its going to be very competitive and even if you are good you wont be making much money out of it.

That is the question. When SHTF (it's not IF anymore), there would be no mad max. Rather we will be dealing with millions of people in need to rebuild anything resembling working society. Seen that after (controlled) collapse of Soviet block, and what FerFAL writes makes lots of sense to me.

One problem undressed is that in such situation, police and former special services turn into mafia ASAP. Already they are prominent in drug trafficking. Especially in Europe, they are the ones with guns and organization. After Soviet fall, they were the ones that made millions, and most of current top wealthy are former special services contacts. they also have politicians in their grasp. Can't overlook that, it's damn major problem.
(PS. And mind: political structures are last to fall, the system fights to last second, it morphs till people think change occured, and they accept "new" leaders, that serve same forces last regime served)
(PS2. Money is loose term there: a medium that is most widely recognizable as having value. Might be gold, might be glass balls, who knows)

[Beth]

Hey Luke, I did post about this about a month ago regarding this. I'm not sure how political or monies will all shake out, but I do believe those in the skilled trade will become of higher value than those that are looked highly upon now (ie. lawyers, bankers, etc). It's the skilled trades that will help rebuild society. I think that in itself could be the interesting paradigm shift.

[Operator]

Those with the skills to "make" money are done ...

Money has no real value at ... it only corrupts society, that's the only value I see in it.

On this, I am with you Beth ... people with craftsmen skills are the ones to shape the future.
There is a great movie: My Name Is Khan trailer here

See how a simplistic guy turns the flow of events by just being himself.
And didn't we see the same in Forrest Gump

The common theme here is that they are not distracted by money and stay on their course ... 'success' is almost automatically the result.

[Luke]

Beth and Operator, you re both right, to a extent.
What passes currently as money is worthless, but system of exchange needs money-medium, else it will not work. What will be used is open to discussion though.

People with useful skills will be obviously in better positions, just as article above describes. Point is though: skilled persons are not enough. For economy to function you need enterpreteurs: people of BOTH vision and skill. They are now nearly extinct breed, but if you want to build industry, even on local scale, you need them. I mean people that seeing gold rush supply shovels, that can see beyond immediate and obvious, and rightfully cash-in on that, by creating better services for other people, and better work conditions for non-enterpretouring craftsmen. Forrest is actually great example of such man, even if he kinda not planned it.

Lawyers, CEO's and their ilk are creatures too specialized to functioning in current system to survive without it.

[Operator]

Posted by Luke (here)
What passes currently as money is worthless, but system of exchange needs money-medium, else it will not work.

For economy to function you need enterpreteurs: people of BOTH vision and skill.

That's the point Luke ... who said we need an 'economy' ?
The whole economy thing is an old paradigm we didn't need in the first place ...

If we are gonna replace it with something similar we're back at 'start'.
It isn't all that difficult to prove it doesn't work ... Monopoly is a game simply because there can be a winner.

If it would endlessly work it would be boring and a waste of time ... and that's actually what happened the past centuries ...
we've wasted important time and our habitat trying to make it work endlessly.

[Beth]

Could be a great time to implement the time banks.

[Operator]

Posted by Beth (here)
Could be a great time to implement the time banks.

Every form of "I owe you" enslaves ... we should be doing things out of love, compassion, empathy ... give without expecting anything back.
If we get this done you don't have to expect anything back ... there will be others supporting YOUR needs.

[xbusymom]

Posted by Operator (here)
Every form of "I owe you" enslaves ... we should be doing things out of love, compassion, empathy ... give without expecting anything back.
If we get this done you don't have to expect anything back ... there will be others supporting YOUR needs.

I think Beth is right... the timebanks can be a stepping stone for the paradigm change...

all things are neutral; it is the people who assign a certain definition (good vs bad) and if we use the timebanks as a transitional method to move into the "everything is provided FREE/no money" then everyone would eventually be expected to pitch in their efforts according to their 'gifts and talents' and available time- we all only have 24 hours each day anyway, lets work from the equality of time given to the community instead of being "paid" for your time/results.

the idea is to get people to unthink "MONEY" and start thinking "CARING/HELPING"

[Operator]

Posted by xbusymom (here)
the idea is to get people to unthink "MONEY" and start thinking "CARING/HELPING"

Ok, very good ... the thing I am afraid of is that they will offer stepping stones which will head us the wrong way again.

I think the ultimate goal is clear ... we all learned to walk in little baby steps but time is running out so we better start yesterday

[Luke]

Posted by Operator (here)
That's the point Luke ... who said we need an 'economy' ?
The whole economy thing is an old paradigm we didn't need in the first place ...

Guess we have different definitions of economy then
For me economy is system that allows for complex human society to emerge, via allowing effective use of individual human energy/potential, allowing fore even more possibilities to manifest.
In economy such defined , there are no winners, as any progress one is making, transfers to progress of others. Service to self via service to others on could say.

Monopoly is only that, a game. It does not build anything lasting. Worse, if we mix monopoly and real economy, system supporting your very life is endangered.

Also guess money means quite different thing to us here. What is timebanking if not attempt to create energy medium ? time/skills are energy after all. Caring/helping is energy too. Money is energy medium.
Money is not paper painted green or any other colour.

[xbusymom]

Posted by Luke (here)
Guess we have different definitions of economy then
For me economy is system that allows for complex human society to emerge, via allowing effective use of individual human energy/potential, allowing fore even more possibilities to manifest.
In economy such defined , there are no winners, as any progress one is making, transfers to progress of others. Service to self via service to others on could say.

Monopoly is only that, a game. It does not build anything lasting. Worse, if we mix monopoly and real economy, system supporting your very life is endangered.

Also guess money means quite different thing to us here. What is timebanking if not attempt to create energy medium ? time/skills are energy after all. Caring/helping is energy too. Money is energy medium.
Money is not paper painted green or any other colour.

I think you have a point there...

If using the Old Paradigm labels for circumstances/ issues is confusing, then just create your own label and definition ; spread the word about the new "lingo" and go from there... maybe that is exactly what we need - a new language for a new paradigm

how about this ( I love to play with acronyms) : ecological cooperative opportunities for interactive social maintenance system (ECO-ISMS)

[Operator]

Posted by xbusymom (here)
spread the word about the new "lingo" and go from there...

how about this ( I love to play with acronyms) : ecological ....

Yes, good idea !
But maybe too close to ego logical ...

[xbusymom]

Posted by Operator (here)
Yes, good idea !
But maybe too close to ego logical ...

HAHA very true, but that was just a quick think off the top of my head... I am sure I could come up with something better - given time...

I still like the new mottos on the timebank money I developed ;

the new TACS (tax) system here: http://www.yoglin.com/TACS.html

[sjkted]

Posted by Luke (here)
Beth and Operator, you re both right, to a extent.
What passes currently as money is worthless, but system of exchange needs money-medium, else it will not work. What will be used is open to discussion though.

People with useful skills will be obviously in better positions, just as article above describes. Point is though: skilled persons are not enough. For economy to function you need enterpreteurs: people of BOTH vision and skill. They are now nearly extinct breed, but if you want to build industry, even on local scale, you need them. I mean people that seeing gold rush supply shovels, that can see beyond immediate and obvious, and rightfully cash-in on that, by creating better services for other people, and better work conditions for non-enterpretouring craftsmen. Forrest is actually great example of such man, even if he kinda not planned it.

Lawyers, CEO's and their ilk are creatures too specialized to functioning in current system to survive without it.

I honestly think most people will be surprised how simple an "economy" can be post-collapse. We need to stop thinking in terms of socialism, capitalism, etc. For one, most people don't understand what these really mean and it's impossible to disconnect an economic system from it's political system. For example, most people will say that socialism is evil, but Native American Indians were all more or less socialist, and many of them were quite successful considering that they were able to survive and thrive and have happy lives.

When the US was founded, one of the concepts was term limits for corporations. The idea was that in order for a corporation to be formed it needed to have a "public good" it was focused on and only then it could only operate for 15 years. The idea being that the owners of the corporation could develop a product, make good money on it, but then the product/methods would have to be released to the public and the corporation dissolved.

Since we no longer have this system and corporations today have more rights than individuals, most people do not understand how much money we spend in royalties or tributes. In many cases, you have a few corporations that have a "special" process or method or distributor or what not (the secret sauce) that provides the key to their product. And, if this were not an exclusive right, the cost of the product would plummet substantially. When you add in taxes and government bureaucracy, we spend a lot of our energy making money to just pay off overhead that we don't need.

One example would be open source software. When TSHTF, I predict that practically everyone will be using open source software. Many software programs will be developed as web-based and offered for free. In addition, there are many open source hardware projects which function almost as a built-it-yourself furniture, where you just buy the spare parts, put them together, and the community supports you if you have problems.

In addition, it really won't be that difficult to replace communications infrastructure. We could even rebuild the internet by linking wireless routers together in repeater mode and have entire communities set up with their own network infrastructure that could connect to other communities, etc.

My point is that the collapse this time is very different than it was for other times because we won't have a superpower trying to take over or control us and because the technology has made obsolete many "jobs" that were prevalent in the past.

--sjkted

[Operator]

Posted by sjkted (here)
In addition, it really won't be that difficult to replace communications infrastructure. We could even rebuild the internet by linking wireless routers together in repeater mode and have entire communities set up with their own network infrastructure that could connect to other communities, etc.

Yes, provided that electronics keep working ... we've come to a point where we've put a zillion transistors in a chip ... no chance of repairing that.
But indeed it will be interesting times where we have to challenge our creativity again. I'm sure we'll find it again !

[steve_a]

Hi Luke,

I think now's the time to learn an ability. Myself I'm going to learn how to weld. I will be buying an electric welder in the next couple of weeks and do a couple of months of courses to learn how to arc weld. Why? Well beleive it or not there is already a shortage of welders! But not only this. I'm planning a project and part of this project will involve welding parts of a car. Also I know that on my travels welders will be needed more in the future as people will buy less new cars and there will be a tendancy to repair older cars (like in Cuba!) - already there is a waiting list to get your car welded, it's never done right away.

Best regards,

Steve

[Luke]

Posted by steve_a (here)
(...)I think now's the time to learn an ability. Myself I'm going to learn how to weld. (...)

Blacksmithing here. Working on building my own forge. I mainly do this as hobby- kinda crazy about antique weapons and armour, but that might be useful skill. Carpentry too. So I can only sympathize

Still, even working on that I figure out ways to effectively use group of people, not only working alone. Same goes for things like farming - small gardens are great, but there are people who think on scale of eco-friendly farms (remember- farming is no.1 polluter!).

In any case : you have small, self-sustainable systems that work together to build bigger systems. Working diligently , you can parallel current system. Only problem is you need to calculate for extortionists and other raiders. This is something I have yet not figured out (short of calling for Jedi )

Posted by Operator

Posted by sjkted
In addition, it really won't be that difficult to replace communications infrastructure. We could even rebuild the internet by linking wireless routers together in repeater mode and have entire communities set up with their own network infrastructure that could connect to other communities, etc.

Yes, provided that electronics keep working ... we've come to a point where we've put a zillion transistors in a chip ... no chance of repairing that.
But indeed it will be interesting times where we have to challenge our creativity again. I'm sure we'll find it again !

While my feelings are along lines of Operator, the communication is essential though. Point is current technology is hijacked, and it's purposefully build in a way that prevent users from repairing/adjusting/tinkering. Autos, AGD too. Software too, but here not only so called "Intellectual Property" and ridiculous patents are problem, but the very way we program- too much typing not enough designing, but that is rant for another thread. I can only add my thoughts to the "we need to figure out how to do it another way" pool
(of course I know best way to accomplish that- bio-electronics and "building" living mechanisms/electronics, that can be reprogrammed given need- no waste, no old models- you can grow what you need- for now it's ScienceFiction, but who knows what will happen tomorrow; do not expect that from corporations or current science establishment though)

[sjkted]

Posted by Operator (here)
Yes, provided that electronics keep working ... we've come to a point where we've put a zillion transistors in a chip ... no chance of repairing that.
But indeed it will be interesting times where we have to challenge our creativity again. I'm sure we'll find it again !

We may end up going back to simpler tech as well. It's nice to have fancy things, but I bought some antique vacuum tube radios for the collapse that work quite well and are also a novelty, and also are EMP-proof. There's no reason why we can't have electronics that can be repaired, even if that means they aren't as small or convenient.

--sjkted

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by steve_a (here)
Hi Luke,

I think now's the time to learn an ability. Myself I'm going to learn how to weld. I will be buying an electric welder in the next couple of weeks and do a couple of months of courses to learn how to arc weld. Why? Well beleive it or not there is already a shortage of welders! But not only this. I'm planning a project and part of this project will involve welding parts of a car. Also I know that on my travels welders will be needed more in the future as people will buy less new cars and there will be a tendancy to repair older cars (like in Cuba!) - already there is a waiting list to get your car welded, it's never done right away.

Best regards,

Steve

Welding is on my list as well, and also engine and transmission rebuilding. The other question is what our fuel source will be which will largely determine to what extent normal people are driving. I also have one of my cars converted to run on Waste Vegetable Oil, and am looking to make a small career of this post-collapse as there will still be vegetable oil and it makes a good fuel source.

--sjkted

[Beth]

Posted by sjkted (here)
We may end up going back to simpler tech as well. It's nice to have fancy things, but I bought some antique vacuum tube radios for the collapse that work quite well and are also a novelty, and also are EMP-proof. There's no reason why we can't have electronics that can be repaired, even if that means they aren't as small or convenient.

I totally agree with that, and it might be fun too!

[bluestflame]

oxy acetelene, bronze welding (for copper pipe and plumbing , refrigeratin)
arc, mig(GMAW or gas metalic arc welding) even carbon rod fusion welding

lot of portable power generators have attatchments for using as a portable welder , is handy to be familiar with a few different techniques and methods depending on tools and materials available

¤=[Post Update]=¤

if you are looking for a good old solid untransitorised welder go visit a farmer , they like to hold onto old machinery even when they upgrade to new stuff