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Thread: Atlantis: where and when was it?

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Quote Greg Little Underwater Ruins & Atlantis (William Henry interview with Greg Little)
    Dr. Greg Little, discussed and also presented an update on the search for Atlantis.

    The topic of Atlantis came up numerous times during Edga Cayce’s readings, said Little. The civilization, according to Cayce, began around 200,000 years ago and stretched from the Straits of Gibraltar to the Bahamas. Its final destruction occurred around 10,000 BC, but priests who used crystals to “communicate with other worlds” were warned about the coming cataclysm. This led them to construct three “Hall of Records,” which were located in Egypt (under the Sphinx), at Piedras Negras, Guatemala and near the Bimini Islands.

    Little detailed his underwater investigations at Bimini and Andros Islands– his most recent trip there was in May 2005. In regards to what is called the “Bimini Road,” he described a formation of six-sided rectangular slabs which are 2ft. by 3ft. each. The stones were not actually part of a road, but rather composed a harbor works, that was used as a huge breakwater for maritime activity, he suggested. Little said that seven different categories prove these stones were man-made, and they probably date back at least 10,000 years.




    Quote Cayce’s Three Atlantean Halls of Record were located in Egypt near the Sphinx, underwater in the Bimini area, and in the Yucatan area possibly near the ancient Maya city of Piedras Negras (Spanish for Black Rocks) in Guatemala. The latter location was not specifically named in the readings, but from clues and details given in several readings, researchers in the 1930s determined Piedras Negras to be the correct location. The Cayce readings state that the records were saved prior to the final destruction of Atlantis around 10,500 B.C. Stone tablets, linens, gold, and other artifacts are stored in the Halls. The records relate the entire history of humanity including the beginnings “when the Spirit took form or began the encasements” in physical bodies in the ancient lands of Mu and Atlantis. They also contain information about the ancient practice of building pyramids. Edcar Cayce's Atlantis
    Yucatan Hall of Records - The Atlantis Connection October 1, 2004



    Quote
    Edgar Cayce’s Atlantis and the Yucatan
    Skeletal Remains Dating to 11,000 B.C.

    Underwater caves off Yucatan Peninsula yield three old skeletons—remains date to 11,000 B.C. By Dr. Greg Little, September 10, 2004

    At the international "Early Man in America Seminar" in Mexico City on September 9, 2004, an archaeological team from Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History reported one of the most significant finds ever made in American archaeological history. Three well-preserved skeletons were discovered in underwater caves off the Caribbean coast of Yucatan during dives during 2001 and 2002. The skeletons were found in 65-foot-deep water. The University of California in Riverside carbon-dated charcoal samples found with one of the skeletons to over 13,000 calendar years ago—11,000 B.C. The find represents the oldest carbon date associated with any human bone remains found in the Americas. Mexican archaeologist Arturo Gonzalez led the dive team.

    Gonzalez noted that during the last Ice Age, sea levels were much lower, but as we reported in our book and video documentary, "The ARE's Search for Atlantis," archaeologists from Florida State University's Underwater Archaeology Department (FSU) found that in the area "of the Bahamas in 10,500 B.C., the water levels were only about 100 feet lower than today. But areas of human occupation on these ancient shores tend to cluster at depths around the 45-foot level."

    The major problem with Edgar Cayce's placement of a portion of Atlantis in the Bahamas and Caribbean region has long been the lack of archaeological finds definitively placing humans in the area earlier than 4000-6000 B.C. But FSU has found the remnants of human settlements along the continental shelf off Florida—dated to 10,000 B.C.—consistently in 45-feet of water. The Yucatan find now confirms that humans were in the region where the Cayce readings state that Atlanteans went just prior to the final destruction, which occurred circa 10,500 B.C.

    According to Cayce, the Yucatan Hall of Records was established by a small group of Atlanteans, led by a priest named Iltar. They first went to coastal areas of Yucatan and then deeper inland. The location of the Yucatan Hall of Records is believed to be in Piedras Negras, Guatemala. But other Atlanteans fled to areas of Central and South America at the same time.

    The new discovery of Yucatan remains dated to 11,000 B.C. comes as we are completing the video documentary, "The Yucatan Hall of Records," scheduled for release at the ARE's Annual Ancient Mysteries Conference. The discovery has been incorporated into the video and confirms several statements made by Andrew Collins, which were made during a videotaped interview for the documentary. Collins, author of the best selling, "Gateway to Atlantis," tells the story of Votan, the Guatemalan highlands version of Itzamna. In both the stories of Itzamna and Votan, related in Maya codices, the founder of the Maya culture was said to have come from an island in the east. Collins stated that substantial research has shown that Votan's origin was definitely Cuba. Both Itzamna and Votan carried written records with them. According to Collins, Votan landed on the shores of the Yucatan coast and gradually moved north. We believe that Cerritos Island, which we visited in August 2004, may have been the initial landing site of Iltar/Itzamna/Votan.

    When he reached the first river he found, Votan followed it upstream for a long distance. When he reached a desirable location, he stopped and established the beginning of Maya civilization.

    The Usumacinta River is the first river encountered when one follows the coast to the north. Collins now believes that Votan may well have stopped at the site of Piedras Negras, which lies on the Usumacinta and established "an outpost of Atlantis." The records carried by Votan would, therefore, probably have been placed where Votan stopped.

    Of course, the major problems with dating this event to circa 10,000 B.C. are twofold. The first is that no human remains had ever been found in the Yucatan region definitively showing human occupation there anytime near 10,000 B.C. That problem has now been resolved. The second problem is that few, if any, Maya archaeologists are willing to concede dates earlier than 1000 B.C. for the beginnings of the Maya. But archaeologists at Piedras Negras have already confirmed dates at the site of at least 1000 B.C. and they believe that far older dates are highly likely to be found at the barely excavated site. For example, an altar at Piedras Negras has dates on it that relate to the beginning of the current Maya era in 3114 B.C. and stellar alignments of pyramids at Piedras Negras point to the rise of Orion's Belt in 3114 B.C. as well as the setting of Orion's Belt in 2012 A.D., the end date of the current Maya era. The same altar, however, also relates that a Piedras Negras ruler was present at an important event in 4900 B.C. meaning that either the event described is a complete fiction—or that Piedras Negras was occupied far earlier than thought. Finally, other monuments in the Maya world have dates extending to an astonishing 400 million-years ago.

    In sum, as time passes, the pieces to the puzzle of the origin of the Maya civilization are slowly coming together. While we know that humans were in the Americas as long ago as 50,000 years, the area of the Caribbean has long presented an enigma in that evidence of human occupation there around 11,000-years ago has been absent. Now, the story related in Edgar Cayce's readings on Atlantis, The Yucatan Hall of Records, and the establishment of Maya civilization are gradually being confirmed.

    Isla Cerritos—Mayan Sea Port, possibly Atlantan Ruins

    2000-Year Old Maya Breakwater Made From Cut Limestone. By Dr. Greg Little.

    I've wanted to go to Isla Cerritos for about a year, after I was captivated while reading about it during our earlier trip to Piedras Negras. Several textbooks on the Maya briefly mentioned Cerritos as having the most unique harbor in the entire Maya world. But virtually no additional details were given about it in these texts.

    Cerritos is located off the coast of Yucatan situated right off the middle of the Yucatan Peninsula. Its position is at the location where the Gulf Stream and Carribean join. It is about 5 kilometers from the small fishing village of San Felipe and is a place where few tourists venture. The island was first reported in archaeological journals in 1963 and has been the focus of several intense excavations. Information on it has been published in highly specialized, hard-to-find journals such as "Mexicon" and the old "National Geographic Research Reports." We had to go to Vanderbilt University to actually find the published reports. Not a single research article on it is online, but there are three brief summary reports about it online.

    In 1984/85 a massive excavation was done by a team of experienced archaeologists who wrote that it was the most unique site in the Maya world and that they had never encountered anything like it in their combined professional histories working in Yucatan. In one of their (15) 6 x 6 foot test pits, they dug through 13 separate habitation layers which included 8 separate floors from different buildings dated to different eras. Carbon dating showed that the island was actively used by the Maya (and others) between 300 BC to the 1400s. In 1984-85 the excavations recovered over 49,000 artifacts from the island during a surface collection—mostly pottery. The island, no more than 650 feet in diameter, was completely covered with 29 buildings and structures and had a seawall (a 'stone' retaining wall) encircling its shoreline. All of these are still visible but in total ruins, of course.

    Numerous huge elevated platforms were built into the water from the shore at Cerritos. These were mooring areas and quays. The breakwater, almost all of which has been looted for its huge stone slabs, is now all under about a foot of water, extending up from the bottom about 4-5 feet today. A few remaining slabs of vertical stone stick up above the surface during low tide.

    As all the articles stated, there is nothing else in the Americas that compares to Cerritos. My interest was peaked by none of the articles—not one—identifying the type of stone used in the construction of the massive shipping structures on the island or the breakwater. The archaeological reports all simply stated that massive "stone slabs" were used for these constructions, but they never clarified what the stone slabs were. I found that omission a glaring fact that seemed intriguing.

    Cerritos—Trading Port With Guatemala, Belize, Bahamas, Cuba, & Florida
    Archaeologists believe that Cerritos was a major stronghold that served as the main shipping outpost for Chichen Itza. In 1984-85 they found trading artifacts from the Guatemalan highlands, Belize, the highlands of Mexico, Cuba, the Bahamas, and even Florida on the island. Strangely, they keep it all very, very quiet. It is definitely Mayan, and is in the official Yucatan registry of Maya archaeology sites.

    Limestone Used In Construction

    Not to my surprise, the bottom foundations of the island’s building structures are all definitely made from coarse beachrock (a low-quality limestone). The looted remains of a dozen or so of the platforms that extended into the water are still there. They are all made the same way, an unusual and perhaps unique method. Cut Limestone slabs were stuck into the bottom vertically and placed side-by-side to form an enclosure. They then filled the inside area of the enclosure with smaller Limestone and then used large, flat slabs of Limestone to make flat tops on the platforms. Most of the large slabs have been looted by various groups over the years for construction, but some large pieces of Limestone remain on the platforms, quays, and dock areas. I also counted at least 5 large mooring stones next to the platforms and docks. Some of these had holes bored through the tops but all had rounded rope abrasion marks on them. The island itself is dangerous to walk around because many of the deep holes made by the archaeologists are still there. They are now covered with dense vegetation making walking and seeing the ground difficult. A hurricane that hit the area also left the island in a tangled mess with trees and vegetation lying on the surface everywhere. The remains of several pyramid structures remain and a fair amount of higher quality limestone, used for the exterior, is still there.

    The Seawall—Also Limestone

    The seawall on the shoreline of the island is only partially intact in various places. It was about 4-feet high and encircled the whole island creating a barrier to the waves. Again, it is also made from slabs of Limestone stuck vertically into the ground. The seawall appears to have been similar to the other Limestone constructions.

    The Breakwater— Limestone

    The breakwater that enclosed the harbor is now 1000-feet long and a fairly uniform 15 feet wide. It is about 120 feet from the shoreline. We filmed the entire length of the breakwater underwater. As the archaeological reports stated, it was made by first sticking large "slabs of Limestone” vertically into the bottom forming a 15-foot wide enclosure extending 1000 feet. The interior of the enclosure was then filled with smaller Limestone stones. Then, slabs of cut, flat Limestone were placed on the top forming a massive breakwater enclosure that extended above the surface. This breakwater also appears to have been used as defensive wall. Only a dozen or so of the large slabs from the breakwater top are still there. These seem to have slid off the top. The archaeological reports stated that most of the large stones had been looted and used for other construction during the past centuries. The ones that remain definitely look like the stones from the Bimini Road and Andros Platform. The largest ones we saw were perhaps 4 x 6 feet and a foot thick.

    On the breakwater, we saw and filmed quite a few slabs of Limestone situated on top of each other. In general, the remaining breakwater is about 4-5 feet high and is covered with coral and very dense vegetation. In fact, it is downright beautiful and is teeming with fish and covered with beautiful plants. As the reports stated, the majority of the vertical slabs that formed the sides had been looted, but we found 40-50 of them still there. But thousands of them were once there. Some of them still extend through the surface of the water. The interior fill of small Limestone stones is generally intact. It is consistently a foot below the surface throughout the entire 1000-foot length.

    Harbor Openings Formed From Limestone

    There were at least three openings into the harbor through the breakwater. These we found exactly where the archaeological reports placed them on their surveys. The ends that formed these openings had large Limestone stones piled together, often on their sides, to make a solid ending point for the two sides of each opening. The largest opening, incredibly, had two very large platforms on each side that extended well above the waterline. These two platforms, according to the archaeological reports, had "perishable structures" erected on them, apparently guard towers and perhaps lighthouses. We found the remains of these larger platforms, but the "perishable structures" had, of course, long ago perished. Archaeologists speculate that the harbor housed 300-400 trading canoes at a time.

    Bimini, Andros, & Mediterranean Harbors

    John and Doris Van Auken accompanied Lora and I to the site and were duly impressed, and it gave us quite a bit of information and lends real credence to the breakwater theories for both Andros and Bimini. Skeptics who have demonstrated that the Bimini Road is constructed from Limestone have considered the origin of the road settled: they assert it was a natural formation that fractured into square and rectangular blocks while in place. This conclusion is apparently based on less than 20 corings done on stones at the Bimini Road. Because the corings showed that the stones seemed to be similar, the geologists who penned the skeptical articles assume that the Limestone formation is completely natural.

    Back in the late 1970s, after he made corings on the Road, geologist Eugene Shinn ran a carbon-dating test on a sample of a rock. His results showed that the "stones" were perhaps no more than 4000-years old. He supposedly used conch shell from one of the stones, but the actual location of the shell on or within the test stone is unknown. Nor do we know the precise methods used in the 1970s by the geologist and his helpers to obtain, secure, and test the sample. The probability of contamination in the carbon-dated sample seems more than likely. To my knowledge, no new carbon-dates of stone samples have been taken using modern methods or modern technology that would reduce sample contamination. In fact, as we have outlined in several articles in the Ancient Mysteries Newsletter and a book, a long-term, federally-funded study by American physicists has conclusively demonstrated that carbon-dating tests in the eastern half of the Americas yield results that are far too recent. The reason is that what the physicists have called a "nuclear event" occurred sometime just before10,000 B.C. Shinn and the other skeptical geologists have not apparently considered or mentioned the possibility of contamination or the strong possibility that the 10,000 B.C. nuclear event rendered carbon dating seriously flawed.

    Skeptics may scoff at the "contamination" idea, but for several decades American archaeologists have claimed that carbon dated samples of materials found in damp Brazilian caves have to be contaminated. The reason for the alleged contamination is that the obtained dates from the samples match what the Brazilian archaeologists believe, but are directly against what the American archaeologists believe.

    Interestingly, not one of the skeptical geologists has studied the hundred or so ancient breakwater harbors in the Mediterranean first-hand, nor do they mention them in their articles. It is either from ignorance about these constructions or a deliberate attempt to avoid discussing the obvious flaw to their assertions. The vast majority of those ancient Mediterranean harbors were constructed from Limestone. An obvious comparison to the Bimini Road corings and the carbon dating technique used would have been to core and carbon date a few Mediterranean harbors. None of the American geologists have done so. It is likely that if geologists had "discovered" the Mediterranean harbors they would have declared all of them to be natural. In sum, the skeptical claims proposing that the Bimini Road is a completely natural Limestone formation doesn't hold water. It may eventually turn out that the Bahamas stone formations are natural, but, as often happens in science, the research and/or conclusions by the skeptics may prove flawed and inaccurate.

    With the verification that ancient harbors in both the Mediterranean and the Maya region were constructed from nearby sources of Limestone, it should now be clear that the Bimini Road and the Andros Platform may well be harbor formations. It's doubtful that any of the skeptics will like or accept the idea, but the facts are simple and intriguing. We hope that our pending expeditions may reveal compelling evidence. 2005 plans call for an extended search down the Gulf Stream and at two other specific locations. At the October Ancient Mysteries conference at the ARE, we will show video of the Cerritos harbor and other structures on the island.





    Uxmal & Piedras Negras Expedition

    Preliminary Initial Report on the 2004 A.R.E. Piedras Negras' Expedition. By Dr. Greg Little.

    On April 19, 2004 my wife Lora and I left for Guatemala on an officially sanctioned A.R.E.-sponsored expedition to Piedras Negras, Guatemala, the site of Edgar Cayce's third Hall of Records. The book, the "Lost Hall of Records," by John Van Auken and Lora Little contains background on the site as well as the background from the Cayce readings, which indicated that Piedras Negras was the location of an Atlantean Hall of Records placed there around 10,000 B.C. We returned to Memphis on April 29.

    The major written reports on our findings will be published in the ARE newsletter "Ancient Mysteries" in September 2004 and also in a "Venture Inward" article. Lora is writing both of those reports. In addition, we will be presenting our findings at the annual Ancient Mysteries conference at Virginia Beach on October 22-24. At the conference we will show a brief 20-minute video presentation (on DVD) of the expedition and make a longer DVD available. These venues will present the most important findings from the expedition and only a brief summary will be presented here.

    Summary

    We began at Guatemala City and visited the National Archaeological Museum. Before arrival we had paid a $1020 fee to videotape at the museum and also obtain a license to produce a documentary using footage from the museum and at Piedras Negras. Making film for public showing (or mass media) is illegal without obtaining such a permit. We noticed a few people (Americans, unfortunately) in tour groups at the museum sneaking some video shots of some things, but the museum staff and the government are strict. The museum staff we very helpful and appreciative of our efforts to conform to their laws and regulations.

    At the museum we spent the day with a Guatemalan archaeologist who has done extensive work at Piedras Negras. He was amazingly open and not only answered all our questions, but he gave us details of all the most recent digs at Piedras Negras as well as revealing the ideas and hypotheses held by various archaeologists who have an inordinate interest in Piedras Negras. In brief, archaeologists appear to believe that Piedras Negras conceals something very important and perhaps astonishing. In addition, while April 2004 has seen numerous sensationalized media reports detailing archaeological finds in the Maya lands, the most intriguing and important finds, made at a site in Guatemala's Peten Region,have been undisclosed. These discoveries show that the Maya were in the region far earlier than previously believed. Archaeologists fear that looters would destroy the site, so no information has been released to the media. In addition, at the museum we viewed and filmed a series of incredible artifacts that have been recovered from Piedras Negras.

    Uxmal

    Another interesting "find" at the museum related to an artifact that was recovered at Uxmal back in the 1800s. In the late 1800s, the Bureau of Ethnology reported on the discovery of a "Star of David" engraved on what has been assumed to be a sun disk at Uxmal. But no other similar finds had supposedly been made, so the artifact was essentially "forgotten" and pushed out of mind by mainstream archaeologists. However, on display in the museum is another Star of David that was recovered in Tikal a few years ago. The intricate engraving is on a circular shell. It is quite impressive.

    One other interesting "discovery" at the museum is noteworthy. Over 70 years ago Edgar Cayce stated that the first people in South America entered the continent from the "South Pacific" as long ago as 50,000 B.C. American archaeologists have long held that such ideas are preposterous and impossible and our book "Ancient South America" relates the differences between the beliefs of North and South American archaeologists. An educational display in the Guatemala museum shows the first people entering the Americas from the South Pacific—just as Cayce stated. After viewing hundreds of such displays in North American museums (still depicting the "First Americans" entering from Siberia in 9500 B.C.) the "official" Guatemalan archaeological display seems to show they are more interested in discovering the truth about ancient America than maintaining academic dogma.

    To Flores, Tikal, & Piedras Negras

    We utilized "Maya Expeditions" as our "travel agency" to make the arrangements for our trip and serve as guides. The staff of Maya Expeditions (aka Copper Canyon Adventures) had also accompanied Scott Milburn on his brief, ARE-funded trip to Piedras Negras in the late 1990s, as well as on a brief tour Scott and a group of ARE members took there a few years ago.

    From Guatemala City we flew to Flores and visited nearby Tikal. From there, we went by car on a 4-hour drive over rugged roads to the Usumacinta River. Rainforest jungle is being burned almost everywhere and the smoke from the fires fills the sky. At the river, we took a 5-hour ride on a small boat down the river to Piedras Negras. Five others accompanied us on the boat: 2 guides from Maya Expeditions, a boat captain, a boat helper, and a cook. We were dropped off at the main entrance to the site with the two guides while the others went about two more miles downstream to make camp. For the next six exhausting hours, we walked through the densely covered ruins examining numerous structures as well as familiarizing ourselves with the massive layout of the city. We walked several miles out of the site through jungle arriving at our riverside campsite only 45 minutes before dark.

    We spent the next two exhausting days combing the many areas of the site briefly investigating a gigantic, dry cenote with walls several hundred feet deep. It was discovered less than three years ago via satellite imaging. We crawled around the steep sides of the site's main Acropolis (the apex of the mountain covered with stone buildings and pyramids) looking for a collapsed building, which we believed could have the remains of older buildings under its ruins. Our guides had never been to that area of Piedras Negras, a location where few people have visited, and no excavations have ever occurred there. We actually found the collapsed stone building, and moving several stone blocks from an area of the structure revealed older structures beneath it. As I removed layers of stones, I counted three distinct building layers before I encountered a much older structure with stones that I couldn't move. We suspect that this building hides an entrance into a tunnel and chambers deep within the mountain...and our conversation with the Guatemalan archaeologist revealed that he, and other archaeologists, believe the same thing.

    We made a careful look at one of the most enigmatic pyramids at Piedras Negras, a structure seldom visited by those few who make the trek to the site—it is simply too difficult to get to and has had little attention—until very recently. Based on something we were told by the Guatemalan archaeologist about the pyramid we subsequently found solid evidence that a tunnel or cave system is present at Piedras Negras. This was a sensational find, and we believe that the ARE could play a pivotal role in discovering the tunnel complex at Piedras Negras. Lora's articles and our presentation at the October conference will detail this find.

    We also entered numerous caves at the site and found at least a dozen more that we didn't feel were necessary or safe to enter. (These caves were found despite official reports on Piedras Negras relating that only a handful of small caves were there.) A few of these caves are fairly deep—30-60 feet. We also investigated numerous petroglyphs, carvings, and stele found all over the site. Significantly, we discovered that stone spheres (polished stone balls) have been uncovered at Piedras Negras. They are similar to ones uncovered in Costa Rica. The ones we saw were a foot to two feet in diameter. (Most of those at Costa Rica were the same size, but the large ones at Costa Rica have garnered the most attention.) Since less than 1/1000 of 1% of the site has been investigated, there are, no doubt, many more stone spheres to be found at Piedras Negras as well as countless other artifacts.

    While cutting a path around the steep side of the Acropolis, in an area of dense jungle growth, we could occasionally see the outer layer of fitted stone blocks that formed the impressive, steep walls of the mountain when it was adapted as a building platform. I found a beautiful slab of carved white stone with a perfect hole bored through it at an angle. The hole was about two inches in diameter. Curious stones, building blocks, and artifacts are strewn everywhere.

    The trip was extremely exhausting and very hot and humid. Piedras Negras remains much like it was when it was first "discovered" in the 1800s. Some rugged "trails" are established at the site, but only to the areas where recent excavations have been undertaken and the typical places the few visitors to Piedras Negras go. The vast bulk of the site remains under jungle and even the guides who go to the site don't go to most of the structures—there simply isn't time to make way to them without staying at the location for several days.

    There are numerous other significant details of the trip we will relate, but as stated at the beginning of this report, we are saving these for the articles and the conference. We took about 8 hours of digital video footage taking along two different videos. One of these was a high-end "movie" quality video. We anticipated having the high humidity ruin the footage as well as possibly destroying the cameras' delicate electronics. We had expected the same "tragedy" the prior year during our expeditions to Andros filming on salt water. Lots of salt-water spray did get on our digital camera then, but thankfully the camera never failed. At Piedras Negras, the cameras were drenched in sweat and constant high humidity. But they worked perfectly—and still do. Our luck holds.

    Who Was Edgar Cayce?
    Twentieth Century Clairvoyant

    For forty-three years of his adult life, Edgar Cayce demonstrated the uncanny ability to put himself into some kind of self-induced sleep state by lying down on a couch, closing his eyes, and folding his hands over his stomach. This state of relaxation and meditation enabled him to place his mind in contact with all time and space. From this state he could respond to questions such as "What are the secrets of the universe?" His responses to these questions came to be called "readings" and contain insights so valuable that even to this day individuals have found practical help for everything from maintaining a well-balanced diet and improving human relationships to overcoming life-threatening illnesses and experiencing a closer walk with God.

    Although Cayce died more than sixty years ago, the timeliness of the material in the readings is evidenced by approximately one dozen biographies and more than 300 titles that discuss various aspects of this man's life and work. These books contain a corpus of information so valuable that even Edgar Cayce himself might have hesitated to predict their impact on the contemporary world. Further details of Cayce's life and work are explored in the classic book There Is a River (1942) by Thomas Sugrue.

    Information Provided Courtesy of www.edgarcayce.org
    Last edited by Delight; 26th October 2014 at 00:25.

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    I found another video from Greg Little that provides some basic information about Edgar Cayce and his search for Atlantis in the early 2000's. Edgar Cayce described the past in detail in over a 1000 readings.



    In another interview I heard, Greg Little states that Edgar Cayce never claimed infallibility of the information. Therefore, to take all the information he provided as a "gospel" would be mistaken. Edgar Cayce did very well with a tremendous high percentage of accuracy for "health" readings and less well for reading "prophetic" future events. Some Edgar Cayce followers do extrapolate from the readings and believe aspects not spelled out.

    The readings he gave for the past are now receiving present validation. I found a source to read the information he gave on Atlantis.

    Edgar Cayce on Atlantis

    And Mitochondrial DNA may link the world wide spread of an Atlantean group?

    Quote An Unknown and Unexpected Migration Group Confirmed
    NativeAmericanCouncilIn 1997, a fifth mtDNA haplogroup was identified in Native Americans. This group, called X is present in three percent of living Native Americans. Haplogroup X was not found in Asia, but was found only in Europe and the Middle East where two to four percent of the population carry it. In those areas, the X haplogroup has primarily been found in parts of Spain, Bulgaria, Finland, Italy, and Israel. A few people with the X type have been identified in the Altasians tribe located in extreme southern Siberia in the Gobi Desert area. In addition, the 'X’ type has now been found in the ancient remains of the Basque people.

    Archaeologists and geneticists are certain that the presence of X in America is of ancient origin and not the result of historic intermarriages. Among Native American tribes, the X haplogroup has been found in small numbers in the Yakima, Sioux, and Navaho tribes. It has been found to a larger degree in the Ojibway, Oneonta, and Nuu-Chah-Nulth tribes. The X haplogroup has also been discovered in ancient remains in Illinois near Ohio and a few areas near the Great Lakes. It has not yet been found in South or Central American tribes including the Maya. The X haplogroup appears to have entered America in limited numbers perhaps as long ago as 34,000 B.C. appearing in much greater numbers from 12,000 B.C. to 10,000 B.C.

    It is important to note that not all Native American tribes have been categorized by mtDNA analysis and that relatively few ancient remains have been tested. (The emphasis is that modern genetic research confirms Cayce’s story) Ancient America and Genetic DNA Research
    Haplogroup X (mtDNA)

    Modern followers of the Edgar Cayce information consider that we now living are reincarnates of Atlantean times. The reason this is important to them is that we who may be interested in understanding the past, are desiring to heal this trauma imprint on human experience. Also, we here may be developing new conditions for spiritual forces to work in the world.

    Ann Lee Clapp is an Edgar Cayce researcher and follower. She was interviewed by the A.R.E organization here discussing Edgar Cayce's readings of Egypt 10, 500 BC and the Hall of records from a Cayce viewpoint. The stories are very interesting for those unfamiliar with his information.




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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    I have been fascinated by the Cave at Tayos story and adventurers like Stan Hall and the golden tablets of Padre Crespi and the language written on these and other ancient artifacts. The idea that South America is the repository of Ancient wisdom from "Atlantis" is tantalizing.

    Here is the PA discussion I found from 2010

    Does the metal library really exist??


    Quote When Father Crespi and his Indian diggers tell of the places where they find their artifacts, they described giant pyramids, immense, deserted cities, fantastic sacred tunnels, and caves. The cities, they say, still shine with a mysterious, cool bluish light when the sun goes down. The tunnels are reportedly large enough to drive a locomotive through. They have cut-stone entrances and walls which, bynative account, are as smooth as glass. And it is these tunnels, at least according to the Indian explorers, that hold the bulk of the material being offered to the Maria Auxiliadora museum and to other collectors.

    It is a fantastic tale, but when one sees the evidence, the thousands of gold treasuresd trinkets, the story of a vast tunnel system become nearly plausible.
    “Although legend tells of this tunnel network honeycombing all of Ecuador and Peru, the only part of it that has, to my knowledge, been documented, is located in the very dangerous Jivaro country, between the Santiago and Morona rivers, near Tayos. Unfortunately, this area is decidedly out of bounds for the foreign
    adventurer. The local Indians have killed at least four inquisitive outsiders in the last two years. Yet the tunnels of the Shuara tribes (Jivaro) have been photographed. A naturalized Ecuadorian named Juan Moricz took several rolls of high-quality pictures, verified in this way the accounts the natives have been giving Crespi, and subsequently lay legal claim to the entire tunnel network. His grandiose claim was denied bythe courts, but his photographs cannot be. “ Ref. 3 http://chapmanresearch.org/PDF/Cresp...%20Ecuador.pdf
    Here is a recent set of notes about Father Crespi's life from an interview made by Susan Klopfer of Dr. Luis García Carpio one of Crespi's biographers. Crespi was a remarkable scientist and humanitarian.

    Amazing Father Crespi

    Thi is the first of 3 good videos of artifacts....


    Here is information from Erich von Daniken’s ‘Gold of the Gods’ via another new site I found in Spanish (has great details of some artifacts)

    Quote On July 20, 1962 the museum was burned in a fire, if someone is not caused, as many suspect. What the father Crespi today then managed to save preserved in two long narrow rooms where the most frightful disorder prevails. Objects and carved brass, tin copper, zinc, stone, wood ... and among all (p.154)

    this chaos, also fine gold, gold leaf, solid silver and silver laminate. Often hear from the lips of visitors rushed to the old man of 90 years have obvious symptoms of senility and is unable to distinguish gold brass; their "treasures" are pure AD HOC made ​​by his parishioners, who teased her trash. Crespi is true that today we are not in full possession of his mental faculties, but if it was then, still in the prime of life, he set up his museum enjoying deserved reputation as an archaeologist.

    [Museum objects in Cuenca: beings from a time before the flood]

    ....All items here are from the Crespi Museum show. It copies saved from the fire, not modern copies or fakes. The majority come from only known to the Indians, who jealously guard their secret underground places. All reasons point to Inca or pre-Inca times, not being among them no Christian symbol. Crespi collection representations abound in metal or stone, totally unknown animals, antediluvian monsters, great heroes of myth and legend, snakes with several heads, six-legged birds. Elephants also appear on the plates of gold and silver; indeed found in North America and Mexico bones of elephants; more than 1200 years old. In Inca times, whose origins lie around 1200 BC, and there were no elephants in South America. Or the Incas were visited by African elephants, or such representations dating back over 12,000 years ... You pick your reader! (p.155)

    Are the characters shown in the sheet metal basin older than any other known script?

    (translated by google translater)
    Erich von Däniken: The message of the gods
    Notes from Susan Kopfler also mention a conspiracy in the expedition of 1975 with Stan Hall and Neil Armstrong with theft of boxes of "artifacts". It states they did not find the gold tablets there but megalithic construction much like the precise stone work found other places.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    This was also a translated piece about this mystery
    Quote By Pablo Vilarrubia Mauso *

    Former board found in Ecuador - collection of Father Carlos Crespi.

    Decades ago were discovered inside some mysterious golden plates containing recordings that made reference to an ancient and advanced civilization Amazon.

    Nowadays, few signs remained of this archaeological treasure. However the Spanish magazine 'Más Allah' found some surprising clues about what may be the Center of the World!

    In 1972, the Swiss writer and researcher Eric Von Daniken released findings made ​​in July 1969 by the Hungarian scholar Janos Moricz on a complex labyrinth of tunnels and underground rooms. These buildings are located in Ecuador's Amazon region called Morona-Santiago and are known by the name of Cueva de los Tayos (Cave of Tayos). It is said that these tunnels extending millions of kilometers below the ground of the entire American continent, having several secret entrances.

    Moricz located in one of the secret rooms of one of these caves a deposit with some golden plates, whose surfaces were covered with hieroglyphics and recordings that could contain the true history of mankind and advanced knowledge of a lost civilization.

    The secret of Tayos showed color similarity with Bible paints, same as the books "revealed" through spiritual and extraterrestrial entities. But unfortunately the Hungarian researcher led to the tomb in 1991, the secret of the location of the mysterious golden plates.

    In 1982 appeared a precious collection of disturbing parts to the official archeology, who were under the protection of Father Carlos Crespi Croci, a Salesian of Italy. After his death, some of them were sold to the Central Bank of Ecuador, however, the gold plates and other works never again had news.

    the Mormons

    The late mountaineer and spelunker Argentine Julio Goyen Aguado is another key person in this intricate story. He was a very close friend of Moricz and participated in the Anglo-Ecuadorian expedition from 1976 to Cueva de los Tayos in which this was American astronaut Neil Armstrong, the first man on the moon.

    Aguado revealed the Argentine biologist Javier Stagnaro, interviewed by the magazine 'But Allah' in Buenos Aires, the hero of space was considered a living follower of a high character of the Mormons, who secretly financed a part of the company.

    "Mormons were convinced that in the province of Morona - Santiago would be hidden mysterious golden plates that their prophet Joseph Smith received from the angel Moroni."

    There is a legend that circulates among them, realizing that the plates come back to one day appear somewhere in the Andes. And the match was perfect, the toponym Morona is like that of Moroni, the "revealing Angel."

    We have no news yet of what the Anglo-Ecuadorian expedition, consisting of 150 members, could have found. Among them were many soldiers of both nations.

    Some, ensure that they found the plates and took them secretly in Ecuador. But there is another version: it seems the very Goyen Aguado would have been in charge of the expedition mislead themselves, leading them to ever more distant and away from the room where the spectacular supposed to be hidden golden plates. Everything was done by Janos Moricz indication that due to a misunderstanding with the Scottish leader Stanley Hall, not having accepted their conditions, decided not to participate in the expedition.

    In the Center of the World

    Several years before the Anglo-Ecuadorian expedition 1969 Moricz had organized another raid that took his name and which was intended to formalize the existence of the caves from the accounts of the Shuar Indians or Jivaros (reducers celebrated of human heads). In turn, the reporter Jorge E. Blinkhorn who worked for the Telegraph Journal (September 28, 1969) of Guayaquil, the Ecuadorian city where he lived Moricz asked him about the name of the second expedition had planned: Taltosok Barlangja. The explanation was that Moricz, Taltos was a generic name of superior beings, known in ancient times as Los Fine; Taltos are also residents of large caves and had to protect the sacred bird that lived at the entrances of these underground worlds.

    At this point, we should clarify that Tayos are almost blind strange birds that live in those caves and Ecuador which are a delicacy for the Shuar, who capture them once a year, when they solve down the entrances of caves with huge string of llamas.

    At the end of the interview the Hungarian threw this cryptic message to the readers of El Telegraph: "The day that Ecuadorians know the true history of their ancient homeland and America, which is the same, then only then see the immense importance it had in past the 'Center of the World' and all that this continent has given to all peoples of the earth. "

    Moricz that expedition and his companions, among them, some Ecuadorian authorities ordered to stand up to the Argentine and Ecuadorian flag (adopted homeland of Hungary). But he had an ulterior motive behind this act: two nations shared the alleged discovery of a "Underland".

    Looting and fires

    The Salesian Father Crespi wanted to found the first mission of the Ecuadorian Amazon jungle in Morona-Santiago. So from 1927 the missionary of Torino (Italy) started a long way to contact the unexplored jungles indigenous Shuar, some of which still had the habit of reducing human heads. In his travels through the Yaupi, and Morona rivers Mansceriche zone, Crespi has established close relations with the natives who even gave him a present of an authentic small head. Nevertheless the military allowed him founded the mission in Morona.

    Also Coangos Indians, the Shuar or Jivaro group, were close friends of Father Crespi and gave him a present of some of their most precious treasures. They gave her figurines and stone slabs with inscriptions similar to those of some metal blades, also engraved with hieroglyphics and religious guarded in his parish "Our Lady Help of Christians", which was mysteriously burned down in 1962, according to a UFO researcher and investigator the city of Cuenca.

    Secrets and Lies

    When I met the Italian researcher Gabriele D'Annunzio Baraldi in 1988, could never think to find him one of the most important witnesses to the mystery of the Cueva de los Tayos and confusing Ecuadorian archaeological pieces. I was interviewing him motivated by his bold theory about the existence of Atlantis remains in South America. The interview was done gradually, in several visits over the years, even before his death, on September 24, 2002.

    Baraldi, who lived many years in Argentina, told me of his travels to Ecuador and on the contacts he had with Moricz and Father Crespi: "In 1978 Moricz owned a mining company prospecting and extraction called 'Cumbaratza', recorded in Guayaquil. I, Baraldi, stood by Moricz at company headquarters, in a simple house with a few huts around and an Ecuadorean military outpost near the Peruvian border. Also located on site had a landing strip for small planes. I spent a few days in camp Cumbaratza and there met six foreign geologists who analyzed minerals. I learned later that those who sponsored the project was the Argentine government and that the gains were good because Moricz received a medal of honor by these agreements.

    Baraldi reminded what he had told me earlier and asked him if Moricz invited to be part of society. He replied that, "Yes. He wanted me to represent the Cumbaratza in Brazil for a navigation project that would connect the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic via the Napo and Amazon rivers Maranhão. The Cueva de los Tayos be used as a tunnel under the Andes, as seen by the space carved these caves was too broad and would allow the passage of an aircraft as a Jumbo. I have not seen them, but Moricz and his lawyer said the ground was leveled and wonderfully ciclópeas that the walls were very smooth with respirators at varying heights, but with regular spaces. "

    The surprising revelation Baraldi stunned me. Intended to turn the tunnels with geo-strategic objective of paramount importance to Ecuador and other nations involved. But Baraldi believes that this project was flawed. I asked him with some skepticism, and he repondeu me: "Look, the direction is towards the tunnels Maranhão river, but the road has some cliffs where no one could spend, just dragging. By my later studies found that it was a work of engineering of the ancient peoples of the region who built them for the purpose of channeling water for irrigation. And I mean something that few people know or keep secret: the true discoverer of the tunnels was not Moricz, but Father Crespi, who got Moricz location. The same Father Crespi told me that the Ecuadorian Indians had also found a colossal stone pyramid, with huge archaeological treasures, of which supplied the Museum that had religious Salesian College in Cuenca. "

    I asked about what happened to the pyramid and Baraldi said: "Father Crespi told that would cover and that nobody talked about it so that was not ransacked."

    Scenes from Ancient Egypt

    Gabriele Baraldi maintaining good friendship with Father Crespi had exclusive access to several metal plates, never photographed, they were in college, "Mary Help of Christians" and are now in an unknown location.

    Baraldi tried to decipher some of it, using it for the translation system based, in your opinion, in what was supposedly left by the Atlantean civilization and the proto-Hittite stone Inga (Paraíba, Brazil), and it approaches the Tupi language phonetic Guaraní.

    According to him, one of the cards shows a climbing pyramid by two cats and crowned with a sun and two snakes. At its base there are two elephants and various symbols.

    Baraldi explained that, "This card is a reminder of thousands of years. It was a gigantic volcanic eruption, the volcano broke in half and covered a large territory with lava. The apex of the pyramid symbolizes the sun from Earth, meaning the active volcano. Residents said to belong to the Empire of the constellation Canis Minor and relatives of the Empire of Constellation's largest dog Puma ".

    According to the interpretation of the writings on the base of the pyramid, the destruction reached the "Empire of the Constellation of the Southern Cross", whose residents implored the "Mother White Moon" that cleaned with water, fire and smoke that covered the stars. The cataclysm, according Baraldi, the supposed extermination of an entire civilization.

    Another sign depicted a series of typical figures of ancient Egypt. The gold leaf 11.5 x 19.5 cm contained some hieroglyphics. Reflected two scenes separated by a sphere. "On one side, the moon goddess and a king receiving the divine powers to become the king pharaoh. On the other hand, a calf at the foot of the God Ra, who attends the King with other powers and attributes. The goddess Hapi the Nile represented also appears behind the King "- explained Baraldi.

    Jaime Rodriguez, said: "Some unknown took the enclosure the golden plates and soon fanned the fire museum Crespi." "It's the plot of the century," he said at his home in Guayaquil. Rodriquez also ensures that "The British soldiers who participated in the expedition to Tayos in 1976 took seven boxes sealed timber. Nobody knew what continhas boxes, this was told by the Indians living near the pits. "

    He also said that the transfer of the boxes was done with the help of an agent of British intelligence who still lives in Quito and takes the opportunity to denounce that in Ecuador "there is an ongoing looting of archaeological and historical heritage."

    Scripture Impossible

    The author of this article also found interesting coincidences between some of the Crespi plates and the old Yungas of Peru. About the authenticity of the latter there were heated discussions at the beginning of the 19th century, when Dr. Olaechea proposed that their origin was Asian. The hypothesis was reinforced in 1915, when the Consul General of Peru in China and Japan, Lozaya Francisco, sent a few reproductions of the writing of the Yungas Japanese Orientalist A. Nykl, opined that based on the spellings used during the Chinese dynasty Ihu Sau.

    The academic debate about the writings in South America in pre-Columbian times is perpetuated to this day. Yet, officially, it is considered that at that time there existed an alphabet or writing, that theory has now increasingly dissidents. This is the case, for example, the archaeologist Velez Lopez, a congress of Americanists celebrating in 1924, recalled that in Quechua are the terms quellca (paper) and quellcani (write).

    The religious chronicler Fernando Montesinos (17th century) that the Incas had banned Chimus to manufacture a type of "paper" that consisted of scrolls of leaves of trees, used for writing. Later, a wise priest was burnt alive by the Incas, by what seems to have invented some characters.

    It is said that from that time began to use the famous quipus, strung with different types of nodes containing information encoded strings.

    Anyway, the fact is that there are great similarities between the signs contained in Ecuador plates and the iconography of Draconian culture in Catamaraca province, north of Argentina. The draconian pieces of pottery appear stylized creatures like cats, dragons and humans with square eyes. Interestingly this culture also produced metal plates where they recorded these and other beings.

    I asked the opinion of a renowned linguist, Professor Luis Caldas Tibiriçá, author of the dictionary with Asian and Amerindian terms regarding possible scriptures of the Ecuadorian plates. In the opinion of this expert, it is a syllabic writing that keeps close resemblance to the enigmatic writings of Glozel (France). One of the symbols represents the "cosmic serpent" biting the tail, related to fire and the sun and symbolizes the cycle of life.

    Another view comes from the British researcher Leonard Craik, who also played some of the gold leaf, which is one of the inscriptions refers to a large tsunami that closed the original entrance of Cueva de los Tayos: "A wide range of debris is clearly visible, spread over and through the entrance of the first cave "- justified.

    According to him, other boards have the following transcript: "Medical care, justice and human rights, liberty community with the angelic hierarchy is witnessed by warranty ...".

    Claik wonders "what caused the death of these races and that stopped the surgical procedures and abandoned their written many years before, when elephants were still grazing on the plains of South America? They died because they lacked food. Happened as a large fire in the Mediterranean: the disruption of Pjaeton in Greek legend? What caused this event and the rapid rise of the Andes in South season the cataclysm? And the consequent evaporation of the sea, having as a consequence the formation of thousands of salt fields like those found today within miles of meters high, especially south of Titicaca? ".

    The Gold Plates

    In March 2000 the parish was "Mary Help of Christians", in Cuenca, Ecuador, where the kindly priest Salesian Sunday Perego allowed me access to the courtyard of the old school, where they were piled up and mixed with the remains of a rubble of an old fire hundreds of plates, rather than gold, but brass.

    Seeing them seemed vulgar falsifications, despite the Ecuadorian investigator Jaime Rodriguez and Professor Gabriele D'Annunzio Baraldi assure me that they had seen between real gold pieces, covered with this metal in the old museum of Father Crespi, was consumed by flames a fire possibly caused.

    So where are the authentic cards today? The magazine 'Más Alla' investigated in the Central Bank Museum in Cuenca, where we find a document that states the following: "Today, July 9, 1980, with the delivery of a check in the amount of $ 10,667,210 , 00, the manager of the branch in Cuenca Central Bank of Ecuador, Dr. Alejandro Vintimilla Borrego, handed the hands of Father Felix Roggia, rector of the Salesian house in this city, the negotiation process culminates after several talks with the Salesian Community maximum staff of the Central Bank of Quito, coming to a happy end. "

    The text states categorically, "According to the inventory raised by Dr. Gustavo Reinoso there are approximately 5,000 pieces. Within this collection has been deleted so many parts that lacked archaeological value and were considered false; these did not interest the Bank and were not included in the inventory, they were in the power of the Salesian Community ". I think at this point, the writing is possibly the pieces I had seen in the courtyard of the College "Mary Help" meant.

    Still referring to the purchase and sale document, "The economic contribution that received the Salesian priests, according to the wish of them, will also benefit from Cuenca, because who pledged to build a school that will carry the name of the illustrious Salesian having honoring community service and Cuenca: Father Carlos Crespi. "

    The old school Cornelio Merchan burned and rebuilt today, takes its current name of "Carlos Crespi" and houses 1,000 students. Despite this evidence, when I interviewed the person responsible for Corporate Image of the Central Bank Museum, Ernesto Davila Trujillo, he said that he had never bought blades carved gold Crespi Collection.

    This must be clarified that Father Crespi had gold plates coming from Cueva de los Tayos, but many more are inside the Cueva (cave). Were those who had seen Moricz and presumably sought the Anglo-Ecuadorian expedition of 1976. On the latter plates, little or nothing is known.

    conclusion

    During a conference of the Swiss writer Erich von Daniken in 1990 in Quito, the Scottish expedition leader, Stanley Hall, revealed to those present that he had found the place where they had transported the treasures and he would publish a book about it, but so far nothing was clarified.

    Together these writings, there were other signs that, in the opinion of some researchers, could contain knowledge of an advanced civilization, including the true story of humanity.

    * Pablo Vilarrubia Mauso, Spanish journalist and researcher.
    google translated from O Centro do Mundo
    Juan Moricz was a new name to me in the story.
    Quote Juan Moricz, whose claim in 1969 to have found the metal library was sensationalised in Erich von Daniken’s ‘Gold of the Gods’ published in 1972.
    Juan Moricz made a connection between the Magyars and "Atlantis".
    Quote Juan Moricz believed that history lacks global vision; that, after the Deluge, the so-called New World of the Americas became the mother of civilization and that its culture was ancient Magyar: that European and Middle-Eastern cultures had appeared suddenly, without the indispensable logic of evolutionary development: that these cultures were transported from the Americas, where their evolutionary antecedents are simple to identify: that some groups survived the Deluge, but those on the crests of the Andes were primarily responsible for the post-diluvian dispersion of knowledge and culture: that between 8000 and 7000 BC they arrived in Lower Mesopotamia in boats made from balsa wood found only in South America: that, in Ecuador, place names like Shumir, Zumir, Shammar, Mosul and an infinity of others (see Pre Historic keys) found mainly in the province of Azuay, identify this region of South America as the motherland of the ancient Sumerians, or Zumirs, whose language is a derivation of proto-Magyar....

    ....The Magyars of the Carpathian Mountains of Europe are of American origin, said Moricz: upon leaving the Andes they brought across the Atlantic idiomatic elements of the Magyar language, together with an accumulation of legends, traditions and beliefs: that, in Ecuador -- as elsewhere in the Americas -- the Cayapos, Jibaro-Shuar, Tschachis, Saragurus, Salasakas and others speak versions of the old Magyar tongue: that place-names and dialects of Ecuador, although many have been eroded by acculturalisation, or eliminated by force, are numerous.

    The similarity between the old Magyar and Sumerian tongues, declared Moricz, cannot be attributed to coincidence: apart from philological similarities - such as nap for 'light of the Sun', Ur for 'lord' and Isten for 'god' - there are ethnographic, religious, artistic and folkloric connections. At the end of the 8th Century AD, a Magyar people, the Karas (royal Scythians or White Huns), emigrated from India across the great eastern sea {the Sinus Magnus of Ptolemy} to their solar Motherland in South America; these being the same Caras who, according to late 18th Century father of Ecuadorian prehistory, Padre Juan de Velasco, arrived that same century in what has since been called the Bahia de Caraquez, in the province of Manabi.Magyars and Moricz


    Stan hall has also died but his daughter is still involved with his work



    Quote Scottish engineer Stan Hall – was born in Edinburgh and raised in nearby Dunbar a few doors from the birthplace of conservationist John Muir. As a nine-year old in 1945, newsreels of blitzed cities and concentration camps opened his mind to a vision of two kinds of people in the world – in every sense of the words – Builders and Destroyers!

    In parallel with university studies and an interdisciplinary career in building, he explored ancient engineering, civilizations and mytho-history, concluding that South America is the 'Missing Page of Prehistory' and 'Interplanetary Catastrophism' the missing link in the Creation – Evolution controversy.

    Tayos Caves Expedition 1976

    In 1976 Hall catalysed a landmark expedition to the Cave of the Tayos in Ecuador involving a dozen institutions, joint special forces, and astronaut professor Neil Armstrong as Honorary President and participant. With a scientific framework installed he later turned to Erich von Däniken's report of a Metal Library allegedly found in the caves by Juan Moricz in the mid-1960s, something unacceptable within an orthodox view of global history and absence of any ancient script in South America.

    Odyssey

    So began a personal odyssey to the heart of global enigmas – the Creation process, origins of mankind, the Golden Age of Saturn, the destruction of Atlantis, Ptolemy's lost city of Cattigara, the sudden rise and fall of wonder civilizations, and the subliminal 'lemming factor' inherent in the collective consciousness of Mankind – enigmas he found unified by Interplanetary Catastrophism as the missing link of prehistory, part of a chain that now includes the metal library of the vanished South American Empire of Tayhuantinsuyu!
    http://www.goldlibrary.com/index.html
    Quote Interplanetary Catastrophism, in one gigantic leap, resolves historical mysteries, bridges evolutionism and creationism, and explains the subliminal lemming factor inherent in the human memory chromosomes. That the evidence for Catastrophism is supported from so many sources places its neglect beyond surprise and into the realm of calculated omission. The prehistory of the Earth and its custodians, lies less in what has been said than in what has been silenced: the silent neglect of evidence, the silent borrowing of ideas, and the silent reversals without apology, are not difficult to detect.

    For 2,500 years the record of global cataclysms has been obscured by a conflict of evolutionist and creationist interests. Today, the gap between these warring philosophies is exploited by a pseudo-science that seeks to explain geological, historical, astronomical and theological enigmas using the hardware of the space age. In a dream world there is never a lack of diversions.

    War mania and dogma will dominate the human spirit as long as that spirit remains imprisoned by false history and false beliefs, and the survival of civilization will depend on whether Humanity chooses to confront its traumatic legacy with knowledge and common sense or perish with its dreams.

    Despite the aberrations of the past, human destiny, this writer believes, will be revealed through beauty, wisdom, love and - above all - altruism, the highest of all religions. Whether in the stilled hearts of those who have fallen and are falling on history’s soon forgotten battlefields, or in the accusing eyes of a newborn child, this hope remains the enduring ideal, the truest and strongest purpose. On this piece of cosmic dust, mankind can yet summon the knowledge and courage to root out the distortions of the past, realign human purpose, and nourish the inner vision that sees beyond this Earth, and beyond this time.

    Stan Hall

    "One ship drives east and another drives west
    With the selfsame winds that blow
    'Tis the set of the sails
    And not the gales
    Which tells them the way to go"

    Ella Wheeler Wilcox

    "They said this mystery shall never cease; the priest promotes war and the soldier peace"

    William Blake
    Stan Hall in William Henry interview including his relationship with Juan Moricz



    In Spanish but great footage (1 of 3)

    Last edited by Delight; 29th October 2014 at 23:45.

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Indeed, it was the Cayce readings themselves that warned against asking questions about the future, citing the inherent reliability of such answers. The language of the warning was echoed some years later by Ra in the Law of One.

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Quote In late 2015 Graham Hancock will bring out his new book, ‘Magicians of the Gods’, the sequel to his worldwide bestseller ‘Fingerprints of the Gods’. In this lecture, recorded in March 2014 for Alternatives London at Saint James’s Church in Piccadilly, he reviews his past work and shares some of the research for the new book.

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Who were the Post- Deluvian "teachers" with mighty form and blonde/red hair recalled in myth? Were Atlantians a different human species? If North America was hit by a cometary event, was a civilization buried, then resumed by the "mound builders"?

    I enjoy these questions.

    Quote In Greg Little's Path of Souls Andrew Collins proposed that
    the American giant skeletons found in Native American mounds were very likely Denisovan human hybrids. Now the theory gains support

    In the ground-breaking book Path of Souls by Dr Greg Little, published in June 2014, Andrew Collins contributed a section proposing that the giant skeletons reportedly found across the United States over the past 200 years are the remains of human hybrids of extreme height. They are, he proposes, an admixture of two types of ancient hominins - most likely Homo sapiens and Denisovans, a new type of hominin identified for the first time from DNA evidence derived from human fossil remains over 40,000 years old found at the Denisova Cave in the Altai Mountains of northern Siberia.

    These findings were also the subject of a full-length lecture presented by Andrew at the Origins 2014 Conference in London in November 2014. This will be made available soon as a DVD. Here Andrew takes the matter on to the next level, proposing that the Denisovan human hybrids first entered the Americas as much as 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, and survived through until the Adena period of American history around 1000 BC as elite groups controlling cosmic geography regarding the journey of the soul into the afterlife. The bones of the giants have been found in hundreds of Native American burial mounds, and almost always they date to the Adena period, ca. 1000-300 BC.

    These brand new theories revolutionize our views on the reality of the American giant skeletons, allowing them to take their place in science today. These same ideas were featured recently in a American TV show on the mystery of the American giant skeletons seen on the History Channel. They feature also in a new article by Norwegian researcher Terje Dahl, published in January 2015, and elsewhere on other websites. The subject is now going global, and will shortly become one of the most debated topics in the ancient mysteries subject, with everyone asking the question:

    Were the American giants Denisovan human hybrids?Denisovans and the
    American Giant Mystery


    Greg Little January 21, 2015 Edgar Cayce & Mound Builder Mysteries



    Quote Ancient bones found in the Denisova cave in Altai Krai in the southern part of Siberia have given us a new homo species: Denisova hominins. Our archaic cousin was genetically distinct from both Homo Sapiens and Homo Neanderthal but is believed to have interbred with both. A tooth found in the cave is the largest homo tooth ever found - can this be a clue to who the giants were?http://sherrycottlegraham.com/2015/0...nt-denisovans/
    Tooth from Denisova cave in Altai Krai in the southern part of Siberia


    Catalina Island Tooth


    Quote there have been found bones of an ancient giant near Borjomi in Georgia estimated to be 2.50 to 3 meters tall in a remote area of a natural park at the feet of the Caucasus Mountains. The renowned professor Abesalom Vekua believes that the find is a sensation, and in the news story on the Russian Channel One he shows the bones and confirms that they it differs from the bones of modern man in size and thickness: "They are mentioned as giants in the scientific literature, although this hypothesis was not confirmed".



    Stone statues many places in the world
    At many of the kurgans there is a kind of stone statues called balbals or kurgan stelae. The meaning of "balbal" is supposedly from a Turkic word meaning "ancestor" or "grandfather", or the from Mongolic word "barimal" which means "handmade statue". They might be on top of the kurgan, placed around it or in a double line extending form a kurgan. These stelae are also described as "obelisks" or "statue menhirs" and the encyclopedias say that are found in large numbers in southern Siberia/Russia, Ukraine, Prussia, Mongolia and Central Asia. Such stelae are believed to be memorials to honour the dead. It was reported that when kurgan obelisks of the Kalmyks held a bowl it was to deposit a part of the ashes after the cremation of the deceased.
    The strange thing is that you will ancient stone statues looking the same all over the word, from Siberia to Easter Island! They are all holding their hands on the stomach, sometimes holding something in their hands, sometimes not.......
    .....Why are they looking so simular? Why are they holding the hands on their stomachs? What are they holding in their hands? Why do the hands on such ancient statues or stelaes sometimes have six fingers? Why do the legends tell the same stories? All over the world? And just by chance..? No, we are not buying that - are we?











    Quote Viracocha (sometimes called Con-Tiki Viracocha), the feathered serpent-god and culture-bearer of the Incas – and in some cases his men – was often described as white skinned and bearded, and sometimes as wearing long white robes and sandals, and carrying a staff. He is said to have come either from the east, or to have appeared ‘from nowhere’ on an island in Lake Titicaca.32 He was regarded as a kind, peace-loving god, who came to the Andes to restore civilization after the flood. In Mesoamerica, culture-bringers resembling and corresponding to Viracocha include Kukulkan, Votan, and Quetzalcoatl. Some researchers contend that such figures are rooted in real persons, and that their description may point to visitors from the Mediterranean.33 Harold Wilkins thought these culture-heroes, like many of the white Indian races, were of Atlantean origin.34Lost Civilizations of the Andes


    elongated skull from Omsk


    Elongated skulls
    The majority of the mummies found in kurgans in Siberia and the neighbouring countries are what usually is called european or white caucasian people; White skinned, blond, tall. With skulls shapes that we usually classify with the Nordic people: Long skull length, narrow skull breadth and tall skull height, and also a narrow nasal aperture. There are exeptions, however, and as we can see from the picture of the Ice Prinsess; The head is longer than would be expected, relative to the width of the head. This is usually called dolichocephaly and is said to be caused by genetic disorder. Well, elongated ancient skulls, very elongated, has been found all over the world, like Egypt, Iraq, Indonesia, Australia, Caucasus Mountains and the Pacific islands,- as well as South-, Central- and North America. It is said these elongated skulls are the result of the practice of head-binding (produced by binding the skull between two pieces of wood) to demonstrate social status like royal blood. But there are supposedly found ancient skulls that anthropologists suggest are elongated not by bindings, but belonging to an entirely different species only remotely similar to homo-genus. And some even claim that the skulls are not human at all: It has been found crystal skulls in the Himalayas with elongated skulls and the legends are that it pictures aliens from the star constellation of Sirius that came down to earth in a distant past!Giant tooth found in Siberia
    Quote Reminiscent of Cro-Magnons
    But all this was under the latest Dynasties; The famous Egyptologist and archaeologist Prof. Walter B. Emery describes the most distant ancestors of the Egyptians as being tall in stature and having large craniums, "reminiscent of Cro-Magnons".

    Ramses II
    While excavating tombs at Saqqara, where the earliest burials of nobles can be traced back to the First Dynasty, Emery discovered the remains of people who lived in the pre-dynastic epoch: Men with blond hair and fair complexions. Emery declared that this stock wasn't indigenous to Egypt but that they were revered by the Egyptians as a special class, an elite called the "Shemsu Hor" (Serpents of He of The Ari/Followers of Horus). He believed that the Egyptians considered them to be demigods, who originally had lived on an island homeland. Harry R. Hall, the Keeper of Egyptian Antiquities at the British Museum in the 1920s, said that the invaders who formed the early dynastic Egyptian type were "northern invaders," who formed an "aristocracy of northern (and possibly Nordic) origin," over the native Egyptians.

    Nordic look
    It is proven without doubt that several of the pharaohs and other royals had white skin and blond (or red-blond) hair - you can only take a look at the mummies of them! And their faces show this so-called Nordic look even several thousand years after their death. The great pharaoh Ramses II is a very good example how special the aristocracy was - not only did he have a Nordic-looking face and red-blond heir, he was about 2 meters tall - and was almost 100 years old when he died! But one thing is a bit strange; The statues that are said to be of him does not at all look like the mummy!
    Professor Emery mentioned Cro-Magnon, today classified as an archaic species of Homo Sapiens - but did they have "Nordic look"? Well, the people of the Nordic type were described as having blond or brown hair, light colored eyes, fair skin, tall stature, long skull and were considered to predominate in countries of Central and Northern Europe. The "Nordic theory" was an ideology of racial supremacy that claimed that a Nordic race, within the greater Caucasian race, constituted a master race. A major problem with the "Nordic look" is that the people of the Nordic countries not always has been blonde and tall! The kings' sagas written in Norway and Iceland in the 12th and 13th centuries, reveils that it was mostly the viking kings who were tall and blond, the term often used to describe them was "beautiful". The viking kings bragged that they were decendants after their mythological god Odin. Thor Heyerdahl of the Kon-Tiki fame tried during his last years to prove that this Odin had been a real person, a chief who emigrated from the area around the river Don to Scandinavia at the time of the Roman expansion into their old homeland. Heyerdahl believed that this chief took the name after the god to impress the native population, and the trick seemed to have worked fine! And yes, with river Don in Russia we are getting closer to Altai Krai and the Denisova cave!

    Elongated skulls
    "Nordic features" traditionally included a long skull. If you look at the skulls of the Egyptian pharaohs it is not difficult to see that they had long skulls - indeed very long skulls! Ramses II, Tutankhamun, Akenathen, queen-pharaoh Hatshepsut and others; their mummies show that they had exceptionally long skulls. The mummies of Akenathen's wife Nefertiti and their children have not been found but we have busts and murals showing them with very long skulls.
    Some ancient cultures used to bind the skulls of infants with boards on either side to produce the effect of an elongated skull but this does not seem to be the case with the pharaohs and their families. They were obviously born with long to exceptionally long skulls. And they also seem to have been tall, with blond or reddish hair and often blue eyes. Yes, very Nordic features - but at a time when the Nordic people did not look Nordic!

    Different species
    Some speculate that the Egyptian pharaohs were a total different species than human beings; that there is an alien connection. Well, you do not have to look into outer space: If you look even further back in time you will find that the Neanderthals had long skulls, with a brain volume larger than us. The Denisovan hominids most probably were taller than the Neanderthals and us Homo Sapiens, according to the large tooth found in the Denisova cave. Cro-Magnon was once considered to bee a very tall variety of Homo Sapiens, even if the scientists no longer use the term Cro-Magnon. Our archaic cousins the Denisovans were genetically distinct from both Homo Sapiens and Homo Neanderthal but is believed to have interbred with both. A cross between a tall Cro-Magnon and Denisovans could have produced a very tall homo species with a very long skull!

    Exceptional brain capabilities
    A few hundred kilometres away from the Denisova cave in Altai Krai, just south of the city of Omsk, an elongated skull has been found.
    ''It's possible that somehow they were able to develop exceptional brain capabilities,'' Russian archaeologist Alexei Matveyev said.
    Might be, or perhaps they were trying to copy somebody with large skulls and exceptional brain capabilities? It is beyond doubt that the Denisovans at least had a very good brain; "The fossil was found with modern technology and ornaments, including a very beautiful bracelet", one of the researchers said.
    Yes, to drill holes in stone and bone with a high speed drill when we humans hardly knew how to throw a stone indeed demonstrates a high level of technological skills!
    So what happened to the Denisovans? A very interesting question. With their technological skills they should have been the leading homo species today - not us. Did their genes die out when they interbred with us? Not really, their DNA/genes are still found in the Melanesian population of Papua New Guinea and also the aboriginal of Australia, which of course raises another question: How did they get to the other side of the world - across oceans? Were the Denisova giants the first kings of Egypt - did their advanced technology "capsize" the Earth?
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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Bits and pieces of interest of mystery in post deluvian North America

    Quote In Fallon, Nevada in 1940, in a cave called Spirit Cave, a husband and wife archaeological team discovered the oldest mummy in America. They were wrapped in tule fabric. The relics found with them were put on display at the Nevada State fair, but then stored away in a facility from viewing eyes for over 50 years now. The mummies were said to be 9400 years old by radiocarbon mass spectrometry.
    Regarding a find of a skull at Spirit Cave in Nevada, it was handed over to the Paiutes, even though they readily admitted that it pre-dated them. There have been legal issues back and forth.

    The BLM (Bureau of Land Management) wrote up a paper about why they believe the Pauite-Shoshone Tribe should not have the remains: Based on a review of the evidence from the tribe, as well as the evidence gathered from other sources, the BLM has concluded that the preponderance of the available evidence demonstrates that the human remains from Spirit Cave are appropriately considered to be unaffiliated with the Northern Paiute, i.e., the remains predate contemporary Northern Paiute tribes and cannot reasonably be culturally affiliated with any of them. Thus, the BLM has determined that the
    remains from Spirit Cave are unaffiliated with any modern individual, tribe, or other group and
    are therefore culturally unidentified.

    Source: Interestingly, D.Gentry Steele's (Dept of Anthropology, Texas A and M) analysis said the skull was consistent with other earlier American occupants, but not modern Indians (vague about these other earlier Americans, but it's obvious the scientific community is extremely aware of them and afraid to say that the Amerind people are second migration). And MORE tantalizing, he added, “the grave associations tied to the ancient dates do not show any demonstrable relationships to the historic material culture of any living Native Americans…as far as the scientific data reveal so far, there are no direct descendants of the early Americans living today.”

    The mummy found in Spirit Cave dated at 9270 BC and the Paiute arrived around 1000 AD. http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal/...a-2482606.html


    A legend?

    Quote 'TRIBAL MEMORIES OF THE FLYING SAUCERS'
    by OGA-MAKE
    (The author of this story is a Navaho Indian.

    He tells us this tribal secret of the Paiutes in appreciation for the story of the Navaho

    which appeared in the Spring, 1948 issue of FATE magazine).




    "...Most of you who read this are probably white men of a blood only a century or two out of Europe. You speak in your papers of the Flying Saucers or Mystery Ships as something new, and strangely typical of the twentieth century. How could you but think otherwise? Yet if you had red skin, and were of a blood which had been born and bred of the land for untold thousands of years, you would know this is not true.

    You would know that your ancestors living in these mountains and upon these prairies for numberless generations, had seen these ships before, and had passed down the story in the legends which are the unwritten history of your people. You do not believe? Well, after all, why should you? But knowing your scornful unbelief, the storytellers of my people have closed their lips in bitterness against the outward flow of this knowledge.

    "Yet, I have said to the storytellers this: now that the ships are being seen again, is it wise that we, the elder race, keep our knowledge to ourselves? Thus for me, an American Indian, some of the sages among my people have talked, and if you care to, I shall permit you to sit down with us and listen.

    "Let us say that it is dusk in that strange place which you, the white-man, calls ‘Death Valley.’ I have passed tobacco... to the aged chief of the Paiutes who sits across a tiny fire from me and sprinkles corn meal upon the flames... The Hav-Musuvs


    Quote Ancient America - Poverty Point, Louisiana - MASSIVE MOUNDS & SPHINX LIKE EAGLE CARVING

    This is a great documentary that calls into question the TRUE origins of this age of civilization, because once you see how ancient some areas are, it makes you wonder if the Middle East really gave rise to all modern civilization like standard fairy tales claim. Did you know America has a SPHINX like carving, it is just a huge bird carved instead of a lion hybrid ? This is all located at the massive mound complex in Poverty Point, Louisiana. Mainstream says it goes back to about 2,500 BC, but it may be FAR OLDER, especially when you look into the erosion factors of the complex.


    Ancient America - Giant Mound Builders & Their Legacy Told Through Native Lore



    Quote The Ancient Giants who Ruled America
    Drawing on 400 years of newspaper articles and photos, first person accounts, state historical records, and illustrated field reports, Richard J. Dewhurst reveals not only that North America was once ruled by an advanced race of giants but also that the Smithsonian has been actively suppressing the physical evidence for nearly 150 years. He shows how thousands of giant skeletons have been unearthed at Mound Builder sites across the continent, only to disappear from the historical record. He examines other concealed giant discoveries, such as the giant mummies found in Spirit Cave, Nevada, wrapped in fine textiles and dating to 8000 BCE; the hundreds of red-haired bog mummies found at sinkhole "cenotes" on the west coast of Florida and dating to 7500 BCE; and the ruins of the giants' cities with populations in excess of 100,000 in Arizona, Oklahoma, Alabama, and Louisiana.

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Quote "Decoding the Ice Age Floods - Wallula Gap"
    Graham Hancock interviews Randall Carlson Raw, spontaneous video of Catastrophist geological researcher Randall Carlson and best-selling author Graham Hancock overlooking Washington state’s Wallula Gap on the Columbia River, near the Oregon border. This mile-wide bottleneck restrained the waters of the Ice Age Floods 13,000 years ago. Hancock interviews Carlson on the details of the events that scoured the Channeled Scablands and the interview explores the idea of a comet striking the ice sheet over Canada.


    Published on Feb 2, 2015
    Joe Rogan Experience #606 - Randall Carlson
    Randall Carlson is a master builder and architectural designer, teacher, geometrician, geomythologist, geological explorer and renegade scholar.


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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Quote Posted by Delight (here)
    Who were the Post- Deluvian "teachers" with mighty form and blonde/red hair recalled in myth? Were Atlantians a different human species? If North America was hit by a cometary event, was a civilization buried, then resumed by the "mound builders"?

    I enjoy these questions.

    Quote In Greg Little's Path of Souls Andrew Collins proposed that
    the American giant skeletons found in Native American mounds were very likely Denisovan human hybrids. Now the theory gains support

    In the ground-breaking book Path of Souls by Dr Greg Little, published in June 2014, Andrew Collins contributed a section proposing that the giant skeletons reportedly found across the United States over the past 200 years are the remains of human hybrids of extreme height. They are, he proposes, an admixture of two types of ancient hominins - most likely Homo sapiens and Denisovans, a new type of hominin identified for the first time from DNA evidence derived from human fossil remains over 40,000 years old found at the Denisova Cave in the Altai Mountains of northern Siberia.

    These findings were also the subject of a full-length lecture presented by Andrew at the Origins 2014 Conference in London in November 2014. This will be made available soon as a DVD. Here Andrew takes the matter on to the next level, proposing that the Denisovan human hybrids first entered the Americas as much as 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, and survived through until the Adena period of American history around 1000 BC as elite groups controlling cosmic geography regarding the journey of the soul into the afterlife. The bones of the giants have been found in hundreds of Native American burial mounds, and almost always they date to the Adena period, ca. 1000-300 BC.

    These brand new theories revolutionize our views on the reality of the American giant skeletons, allowing them to take their place in science today. These same ideas were featured recently in a American TV show on the mystery of the American giant skeletons seen on the History Channel. They feature also in a new article by Norwegian researcher Terje Dahl, published in January 2015, and elsewhere on other websites. The subject is now going global, and will shortly become one of the most debated topics in the ancient mysteries subject, with everyone asking the question:

    Were the American giants Denisovan human hybrids?Denisovans and the
    American Giant Mystery
    James Swagger interviews Andrew Collins:

    Quote Giant Skeletons, Anunnaki and Gobekli Tepe 2015
    So what is Göbekli Tepe? Who created it, and why?

    These are the questions Andrew Collins asks in his new book Göbekli Tepe: Genesis of the Gods, in which he provides compelling evidence that the myths of the Watchers of the book of Enoch and the Anunnaki of Mesopotamian myth and legend are memories of the Göbekli builders and their impact on the rise of civilization. I believe also that Göbekli Tepe was constructed by a hunter-gatherer population still in fear following a devastating cataclysm that nearly destroyed the world - a comet impact that science today recognizes as having taken place around 12,900 years ago, with terrifying after shocks that lasted for several hundred years afterward.

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    The possibility that intermixing between Cro Magnon and Neanderthal hybridized our ancestors was first theorized by Stan Gooch. Andrew Collins suggests that we study his work. His research is vindicated by new evidence.



    Quote Colin Wilson talks about the achievements of author Stan Gooch

    It has seemed to me for many years that Stan Gooch is one of the most underrated writers of our time. The reasons are complex, but obviously connected with the fact that he began life as a respectable academic, a research psychologist whose first work was a textbook on child psychology.
    Under normal circumstances, he would have continued to write textbooks and become a member of the British academic establishment. But in 1958, when he was 26, he had an experience that was to change the direction of his life. A schoolteacher in Coventry at the time, he was invited to a 'seance' in the home of a friend. He went out of curiosity.

    But as he sat in an ordinary hardback chair, facing the 'medium' he experienced a sense of light-headedness, then a rushing sensation, as if the room was full of a great wind, and he heard a noise like roaring waters. He felt as if a barrier had collapsed and became unconscious. When he came to, he was told that he had entered a trance state, and that several 'entities' had spoken through his mouth, including a cousin who had died in the war.

    At one of these seances, everyone became aware of an ape-like creature crouched in the corner of the room, a 'cave man', which soon faded away. Gooch later came to suspect that he had seen a 'Neanderthal.'

    In spite of these bizarre spare-time activities, he proceeded with his academic career, became a senior research psychologist at the National Children's Bureau in 1964, and wrote his textbook. But he also wrote a novel and short stories, and a chance meeting with a director of Penguin Books led to a commission for Total Man (1972).

    This was a remarkable work. On the surface it was a fascinating combination of literary criticism and 'depth psychology'. Arguing from works like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, he suggested that man is a dual being, consisting of a rational ego, and a darker more instinctive being, which he calls the 'Self'. So far this sounds like fairly orthodox Freudian (or Jungian) psychology – Gooch had first been excited by the mysteries of psychology as a result of reading Karen Horney in his teens.

    But it is soon obvious that his involvement with his ideas is on a deeper, more personal level, than with most psychologists. He regards the 'Self', which inhabits the 'old brain', as the source of legends about vampires, troglodytes, demons and other creatures from the world of the 'occult'. Clearly, his experience of mediumship has made him aware of the unconscious as a mysterious realm of strange, dark forces. He argues that the unconscious mind is located in the part of the brain called the cerebellum.

    Total Man was bold and imaginative, but was clearly the work of a scientist; it seemed to promise that Gooch would become, like RD Laing, one of the gurus of the 1970s. (Publisher's Weekly compared him with Jung.) His next book, Personality and Evolution, subtitled The Biology of the Divided Self, reinforced that expectation. It is partly an attack on Darwinism and the notion of evolution by survival of the fittest. But Gooch points out that ice ages may occur so abruptly that there would be no time for natural selection.

    He goes on to look at the work of Tinbergen on 'releasers' – stimuli that release certain instincts, like a mother's reaction to a baby, or a man's to a girl taking her clothes off. Tinbergen discovered that some creatures prefer 'bigger than normal releasers' that seem oddly illogical but which suggest inner-freedom to develop responses to situations that have not yet arisen.

    Gooch is suggesting that there is an element of choice that must have sounded to orthodox Darwinians dangerously like the Lamarckian heresy. But then, Arthur Koestler and many others were also attacking orthodox Darwinism at the time, and Gooch might have been a maverick, but he was part of a non-orthodox mainstream, and there was every reason to expect him to achieve his own kind of respectability.

    What happened was that his next book, The Neanderthal Question (1977) appeared to make a disconcerting sideways leap into another field. In fact the book was a logical development of his interest in man's 'two selves'. He had come to believe that Neanderthal man was not exterminated by Cro-Magnon about forty thousand years ago, but that he was 'bred' out of separate existence by interbreeding with Cro-Magnon. We are the result of this combination, with Cro-Magnon characteristics predominating. Critics found the arguments of The Neanderthal Question a little too bold and strange, although I, as an admirer of Gooch's work, regarded it as an exciting new departure that was firmly based on his past preoccupations.

    I was even more excited by his next book The Paranormal (1978) in which he begins by describing in detail his experiences as a medium and he goes on to produce a classic study of the whole realm of paranormal experience. This is the book of his to which I most refer. Yet I am also able to see that, to many critics, it must have seemed that Gooch had abandoned the scientific and academic approach of Total Man and Personality and Evolution, and plunged into what Freud called 'the black tide of occultism'.

    The title of his next book, Guardians of the Ancient Wisdom (1979) must have confirmed their worst fears. In fact the book is an important backward-look over his past work and an attempt to advance cautiously into the realm of the 'lunar' being, the 'Self'.

    In his next book The Double Helix of the Mind (1980) he takes up the cudgel against the split-brain theorists – those who believe that the difference between the left and right cerebral hemispheres is also the difference between the conscious and the unconscious mind. I can see why he felt it so necessary to write it, for it must have seemed to him that all the publicity given to Sperry and spilt brain physiology in the 1970s appeared to undermine his own basic theory, in which the source of the unconscious is the cerebellum, not the right brain. I felt so myself when I first read Robert Ornstein on the split brain.

    Now I see that, in fact, it makes no difference whatsoever to the arguments of Total Man and its successors. The right and left distinction is convenient, but it is certainly not the whole truth. At the time I felt that The Double Helix of the Mind was a rearguard action against Sperry, Ornstein and the rest; re-reading it years later, I was struck by how far an advance it is on his previous work in discussing the 'dark realm' of the Self, and how powerfully he carries forward his argument.

    I found his next two books, The Secret Life of Humans (1981) and Creatures from Inner Space (1984) his most fascinating since The Paranormal. The first covering a broad spectrum of oddities, from UFOs and astrology to reincarnation; the second dealing more fully than in any of his previous works, with the realm of the unconscious and with problems such as 'demonic possession' and multiple personality.

    These two books made clear what was already very obvious to admirers like myself – that his work formed one enormous oeuvre, and that his attempts to probe the secrets of the mind were creating a total picture that was as exciting as – and in many ways more convincing – than the work of Freud and Jung. This was truly creative thinking on an awesome scale. I myself was disappointed that his explanation of phenomena such as possession leans so heavily towards scepticism; my own research into poltergeists had convinced me - reluctantly - that there are such things as spirits.

    When he sent me a proof of Cities of Dreams, he told me that he was crossing his fingers this would finally make the impact he always hoped for. As I read the book, it seemed to me that this was highly likely – that this brilliant demonstration that Neanderthal man possessed as rich and complex a culture as Cro-Magnon, who replaced him, would excite widespread interest and controversy. In the event, he once more encountered the old problem: that his work was too original and wide-ranging for the academics, and too closely argued and serious for the general public. Yet that struck me as outrageously unfair since the book was so obviously a culmination of his work since Total Man.

    I could see instantly that it had all started with that crouching figure in the corner of the seance room and that everything that Gooch had written since then was an exploration of the implications of what had happened to him at the age of 26.

    When I wrote this article in 1995, six years after the first publication of Cities of Dreams, the intellectual climate was more receptive than ever before to his ideas. During the 1980s, John Anthony West, an expert on ancient Egypt, had become convinced that the Sphinx had been eroded by water, not by wind-driven sand, and in 1992, a Boston geologist, Dr Robert Schoch, supported his opinion, arguing that the Sphinx was probably built five thousand years earlier than modern scholars believed.

    Subsequent evidence arising from the explorations into the astronomical alignments of the Great Pyramid complex by Robert Bauval have led West to put back the date to 10,500 BC (the widely accepted dating is 2,500 BC). In his bestseller Fingerprints of the Gods, Graham Hancock has argued that there is evidence for ancient civilisations dating back thousands of years before the accepted 'origin of civilisation' in the Middle East around 6,000 BC.

    Charles Hapgood's Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings had long ago pointed out that mediaeval maps, called Portolans, must be based on far more ancient maps, and that one of these shows the continent of Antarctica as it was before it was covered in ice. Through radar soundings the bays shown in this map have since been discovered – under a mile of ice. Yet Antarctica has not been ice-free since at least 4,000 BC, and probably much earlier than that.

    If there were civilisations that pre-dated Sumer and Egypt by more than ten thousand years, then Gooch's argument that Neanderthal man was a far more sophisticated creature than anyone has recognised also becomes far more plausible. In fact, the whole field has opened up, to an extent that even Stan Gooch could not have guessed in the mid 1980s. His work has never been more relevant and I must admit that I have drawn heavily upon The Neanderthal Question and Cities of Dreams for my book From Atlantis to the Sphinx (1996) which concerns this whole riddle of ancient civilisations and the mind of primitive man.

    I am inclined to believe that Stan Gooch will only begin to be properly recognised when all his books from Total Man onward are available in a uniform cheap paperback edition. Then it will be clearly seen that his work represents one of the most impressive and exciting intellectual structures of the second half of the twentieth century. With luck, the updated version of Cities of Dreams (1995) will mark the beginning of that process.

    Colin Wilson Tribute to Stan Gooch
    Quote Archaeological Evidence that Neanderthals were Highly Developed
    With an average cranial capacity of 1600cc Neanderthal's cranial capacity is known to be notably larger than all races of modern humans on average, indicating that their brain size was at least as large, if not larger. In 2008, a group of scientists produced a study using three-dimensional computer-assisted reconstructions of Neanderthal infants based on fossils found in Russia and Syria. The study indicated that Neanderthal and modern human brains were the same size at birth, but by adulthood, the Neanderthal brain was larger than the modern human brain. They were much stronger than modern humans, having particularly strong arms and hands. Males stood 164--168 cm (65--66 in) and females about 152--156 cm (60--61 in) tall.

    Genetic evidence published in 2010 suggests that Neanderthals contributed to the DNA of anatomically modern humans, probably through interbreeding between 80,000 and 50,000 years ago with the population of anatomically modern humans who had recently migrated from Africa. According to the study, by the time that population began dispersing across Eurasia, Neanderthals genes constituted as much as 1--4% of its genome (roughly equivalent to having one Neanderthal great-great-great-grandparent). Ötzi the iceman, Europe's oldest preserved mummy, was found to possess an even higher percentage of Neanderthal ancestry.


    Quote Read more here:Stan Gooch & the Neanderthal LegacyUltimately Gooch developed a framework and theory of human personality in terms of dualities, such as unconscious versus consciousness, religion versus science, magic versus logic, dreaming versus waking. In his list are two key comparisons: psychic phenomena versus materialism, and Neanderthal man versus modern man.

    Gooch’s great insight was that while modern humans might manifest occasional psychic phenomena, Neanderthals “certainly possessed abilities in respect of the purely paranormal that far exceeded our own.” According to Gooch, we modern humans are literally the result of the dualities coming together, the biological interbreeding of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons (that is so-called “modern humans,” Homo sapiens) and the melding of Neanderthal religious beliefs and cultural practices with Cro-Magnon societal elements even as Cro-Magnons may have come to physically dominate, and even apparently exterminate, the earlier Neanderthals.

    The Neanderthal Question
    Who, or what, the Neanderthals were has been a much discussed issue ever since their remains were first recognized in the middle nineteenth century.12 The popular conception of Neanderthals is that of big-browed, short, stocky, stooping, grunting, ape-like cave men (and women) eking out a meager existence during the harsh conditions of ice age Europe, the Near East, and Southwest Asia.

    Classic Neanderthals in Europe date from around 130,000 years ago to perhaps as recently as 24,000 years ago in Gibraltar, but Neanderthal characteristics and antecedents are seen in fossil forms going back to perhaps half a million years ago or earlier.

    In many people’s minds Neanderthals are a primitive side branch of the human tree at best, a totally separate species from us, that was driven to extinction by the more intelligent and better armed “Cro-Magnon Man” group (archaic Homo sapiens, essentially the direct ancestors of living humans) who progressively migrated from East Africa into Eurasia during the period of about 60,000 to 30,000 years ago.

    Stan Gooch had a very different view of the place and importance of Neanderthals – in Gooch’s view modern humanity is a result of the intermixing, both biologically and culturally, of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal elements. In his words,

    A biological supernova occurred when Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal man met. We can, if we will listen, still clearly hear the echoes of that explosion and observe its after-effects… [B]ehind these echoes and tendrils we can also then detect the still fainter traces of Neanderthal civilization itself, and hear the still fainter echoes of falling cities of dreams.

    According to Gooch, Neanderthals possessed an intricate, psychically-charged, magical culture.15 Neanderthals built a long-lasting “high civilisation of dreams.” Neanderthal culture, more sophisticated than that of the Cro-Magnons when they first arrived in Europe, served as a primary source for much so-called ancient wisdom.

    Gooch argued that Neanderthals were the original creators, the innovators, of high culture, of symbolic values and religious sensibilities, which early modern humans (Cro-Magnons) copied and adopted without genuine understanding. Neanderthal culture was not a civilisation of high technologies, but one of the mind and spirit that survives today in our beliefs, myths, folklore, and religious practices.

    Neanderthal Culture
    Neanderthals developed in time a culture of the mind of a very high order, but also of a strangeness that is extremely difficult for us to imagine.

    Neanderthals, according to Gooch, worshipped the cave bear, the spider, and the serpent – animals with whom they shared their caves. Neanderthals were the first humans to fully develop religious cults, and cave bear worship was their most significant cult. Neanderthals worshiped the number 13, associated with the moon and the lunar calendar, a number that is still considered magical today. Neanderthals developed a profound knowledge of crystals and minerals. According to Gooch, Neanderthals developed their own unique symbols, signs, and sophisticated language systems.

    Neanderthals weaved and sewed embroidery, wore jewellery, painted their faces and bodies, danced, had an elaborate mythology and cosmology, built stone circles, utilised sacred fires, and made ceremonial sacrifices. They had their own grand celebrations and feasts, which were spectacularly colourful and creative performances.

    They worshipped the moon and other celestial bodies including constellations still worshiped today worldwide such as The Big Bear, Little Bear, and Draco (the dragon or serpent in the sky). Gooch asserted that Neanderthals had a strong religious life, based on an earth-magic religion, and they believed in the afterlife, practicing complex burial rituals.

    Neanderthals, as Gooch emphasized, were capable of great cultural innovations that included wearing jewellery and decorating their bodies and faces with colorful paints for special ceremonies. There is evidence that the sophisticated Chatelperronian culture of France belonged to the Neanderthals and not, as was formerly believed, to modern humans. This culture included symbolic artefacts, such as jewellery. The Uluzzian culture in Italy, also now attributed to Neanderthals, is another example – an innovative culture that included a variety of very sophisticated tools that were similar to modern humans’ tools.20 Neanderthals in Spain were painting perforated shells for decoration, using pigments, and engaged in other ritual behavior. As archaeologist João Zilhão, has stated,

    The one thing these finds make clear is that Neanderthals were behaviorally modern. They were not like early modern humans anatomically, but they were cognitively as advanced or more so.

    In many ways Neanderthal culture and Cro-Magnon culture were diametrically opposed. Gooch wrote,

    I believe the actuality of Neanderthal man – of whom archaeologists find only a handful of skeletons, a few altars, traces of ritualised burial, a range of flint tools, and an apparent knowledge of herbal remedies – was this: his was a moon-goddess-worshipping, matriarchal, food-gathering society, where women governed all matters. The only tasks delegated specifically to men were those where muscle power was directly and literally required, as in fighting, for example. The structure and nature of Cro-Magnon life was diametrically opposite. This was a patriarchal, hunter-warrior society, of which men governed all aspects, including religious life. Women were mere adjuncts in all things, whose main purpose was to bear sons and to comfort and care for the male. The supreme deity worshipped was the sun god.

    Gooch believed that Neanderthals were a mostly nocturnal species, and came out at night. Observing the skies and the moon for thousands of generations, they had become experts in all phenomena of the stars, having a great understanding of cycles and time, equinoxes and solstices, the phases of the moon.

    Cro-Magnons would have come to know Neanderthal religion and knowledge initially through secret observation during 10,000 years (or more) of co-existence. When Cro-Magnons arrived in Europe they were shocked by the knowledgeable Neanderthals, and wanted the Neanderthal magic for themselves; so, they slowly and carefully spied on Neanderthals, copied them, and in the process stole all of their knowledge and wisdom, including writing systems and rituals.

    The meeting of Classic Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons in Europe some 35,000 years ago was an immense culture shock for both parties… The two species were culturally opposite to each other in every way. At the purely psychological/cultural level,… Neanderthal dealt Cro-Magnon a culture-shock of such magnitude that its consequences are still with us today. Though it left little physical trace, there is in fact… not one aspect of our present lives, our attitudes and our institutions which does not today bear that ancient [Neanderthal] culture’s stamp.

    According to Gooch, Cro-Magnon was dazzled by the religious rituals, symbolism, cosmology, and deep intimate knowledge of the natural world the Neanderthals possessed.

    Cro-Magnon took over all the ‘magic’ and ritual of Neanderthal for his own. But he took it over without any real understanding of most of it, and also with certain appropriate changes to suit his own world view, his own existing social structure, his own biological imperatives. He took over essentially empty forms, while losing the priceless content.

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    The story just becomes more deeply curious about "who were Atlantians?" Also, now I am wondering about the practical implications of the last great catyclysm Randall Carlson and others are documenting.

    IF we had a sudden catastrophe now, we would be pretty lost IMO in our complexities. The Hopi "way of life" that they have held as a sacred trust to preserve is an example of values and technology meant to survive the ending of worlds.

    I want to post some more random reading/listening material that I found.....

    It cannot be doubted that diffusion, catyclysm calling for (a) reboot(s) of civilization, and devolution of many layers of high culture is a legacy from our past. I am noticing the thousands of years involved and the immense difficulty of placing a timeline or piecing this coherently together.

    IMO, we are also seeing undoutable evidence that there was a race of giants who survived the world wide catyclysm. IMO we are probably related to them.

    Epigenetics is a science that demonstrates the effect of the environment on genetic expression and Our climate has altered and the conditions varied drastically over time.

    I am now really sure that the previous great civilization(s) was/were probably involving people very unlike us moderns......Also, I suspect some very unlike us moderns were still here until very recently.

    Sharon Day is an investigator of the history of giants who pulls so much interesting information together, she deserves attention IMO.

    Quote What if we were never visited by ancient aliens - but were visited by other civilizations that lived and evolved here long before homo sapiens?

    Wisconsin, Peru and Nevada?

    Let me begin with something you may not see coming - Wisconsin, Peru and Nevada and their similarities-

    Wisconsin is an ancient copper mining site. The Menomonie Indians of north Wisconsin possess a legend that speaks about the ancient mines. They described the mines as being worked by “light-skinned men," who were able to identify the mines by throwing magical stones on the ground, which made the ores that contained copper ring like a bell. This practice closely resembles a similar practice that was used in Europe during the Bronze Age. Bronze with a high concentration of tin indeed resonates when a stone is thrown against it. The legend might have confused the start of the process with the result of the process. Even so, S.A. Barnett, the first archaeologist who studied Aztalan, a site near the mines, believed that the miners originated from Europe. His conclusion was largely based on the type of tools that had been used, tools which were not used by the local people.

    Wisconsin is also a state of an enormous amount of animal effigies on the ground at burial mounds. As well, Wisconsin coincidentally has had plenty of ancient giants - found at burial mounds.

    The dig site at Lake Delavan was overseen by Beloit College and it included more than 200 effigy mounds that proved to be classic examples of 8th century Woodland Culture (*a culture that adopted what it knew from a previous culture?). But the enormous size of the skeletons and elongated skulls found in May 1912 did not fit very neatly into anyone's concept of a textbook standard. First reported in the 4 May 1912 issue of the New York Times, the 18 skeletons found by the Peterson brothers on Lake Lawn Farm in southwest Wisconsin exhibited several strange and freakish features. Their heights ranged between seven and nine feet and their skulls "presumably those of men, are much larger than the heads of any race which inhabit America to-day." Above the eye sockets, "the head slopes straight back and the nasal bones protrude far above the cheek bones. The jaw bones are long and pointed, bearing a minute resemblance to the head of the monkey. The teeth in the front of the jaw are regular molars." On 10 August 1891, the New York Times reported that scientists from the Smithsonian Institution had discovered several large "pyramidal monuments" on Lake Mills, near Madison, Wisconsin. "Madison was in ancient days the centre of a teeming population numbering not less than 200,000," the Times said. The excavators found an elaborate system of defensive works which they named Fort Aztalan.

    So, Wisconsin has - lots of animal effigies, burial mounds with slope-skulled tall skeletons, ancient mining of copper by "people before the Natives" and legends by the local Natives of the "others."

    Let's move on through the Americas -

    Peru is a copper mining area, with findings of ancient giants (Peruvian red-haired, elongated skull people), local legends by Natives of ancient giants being there (red-haired, white-skinned giants who arrived by boats), and animal effigies (Nazca) -

    Nevada has copper mining. It also has 14,800 year old petroglyphs (so far the oldest in America), finds of ancient red-haired giants, and legends by the Paiutes of their giant existence and torment in the region.

    Glyphs: ("National Geographic" link) The carbonate ages, combined with an analysis of sediment cores taken from neighboring Pyramid Lake, suggest that the boulders were exposed to air—and thus accessible for carving by humans—between about 14,800 to 13,100 years ago, and again from about 11,300 to 10,500 years ago. In between the two time periods, the boulders were submerged, the scientists say.

    Scientists say they have found genetic evidence that a first wave of migrants (*interestingly chosen term "migrants") crossed into the Americas from Asia about 15,000 to 18,000 years ago by slowly creeping down the continent's coasts. A few thousand years later, according to the study, a second wave of humans (*now they differentiate with the term "humans") entered North America, this time by slipping across the Bering Strait into Alaska and then crossing through an ice-free corridor into Canada.

    ***BING! BING! BING! - Ancient giants from Asia headed by SEA much earlier in first migration, but "humans" later came by Behring Strait*** (remember that first wave of migrants with sloped heads? Later migration of what would become Native Americans?--see my prior posts on the right hand side regarding giants)

    *NOTE: If you look closely enough at the actual very carefully worded works of archaeologists and paleontologists, you start to note interesting and cautious wording that masks these "does-not-compute" finds.

    Whose Language Is It?

    "Egyptian tomb in the Grand Canyon,"
    "Viking Runes in Wisconsin,"
    "Ogham writing in Arizona."

    These comments are coming from the mindset of other countries visiting America before we thought they did, but this might very well be wrong.

    Technologies and languages "out of place" also line up with slope-skulled giants who cannot be explained. The one commonality in all of our cultures is giants.

    If we had pyramids in China and South America and Egypt, we had hieroglyphs and runes, stone buildings, mining, and seafaring, it wasn't being designed separately in isolated pockets around the world, it was being visited by the "originators" who spread it and it was eventually adopted by the locals who made it their own.

    I propose that the giant culture spread its influence of technology and language around the world as it moved about and languages from other cultures were fashioned from the "original" language. What we are finding in America is not out of place - for the original settlers - the giants. This is not otherworldly, but to some it's more of a threat because it means that man cannot take credit for originality, but taking an innovation and running with it.


    Perhaps "Runestones" of America is the wrong terminology. Perhaps the Norse were utilizing language they learned from the giants, as were Aztecs, Egyptians and others who started their languages based on the "leap in knowledge" the ancient giants afforded them. Those languages were a reflection of giants' original hieroglyphics and so there are similarities depending on how much the culture retained the giants' own symbols.

    Is it easier to believe that Vikings might have arrived with some off-style rune language and left it on rocks around American a thousand years ago up to almost 15,000 years ago?

    Or is it a much easier task to believe that a people who settled here before us were writing upon the rocks in the regions where they settled where there was water, copper, and ideal living conditions for what they sought?

    These white-skinned, red-haired, giants with rune-looking language are dismissed as "possibly Vikings showed up randomly in the Middle Ages." But, did Vikings stay and mine copper? Were they truly 7-9 feet tall? Did the make civilizations around the Americas and have sloping skulls? http://www.ghosthuntingtheories.com/...nt-giants.html

    Quote [URL="http://www.ghosthuntingtheories.com/2014/06/ancient-giants-faces-finally-revealed.html"]Common Attributes of giants In Legends and Art/URL]

    sloping forehead
    pointed back of head
    robust jaw
    cannibalistic/carnivorous tendencies
    pronounced brow ridge
    elongated ears from ear spools (seen in a lot of art)
    Six toes
    Unusual height/long limbs
    Antlers and feathers
    Inca?


    Mayan?


    The face of a Hopewell Indian? This graven image is made of pure copper, and likely portrays a god or demigod of the Hopewell religion — or perhaps a giant. Image from Ohio History Central.


    "La Tene" art of Irish origin around 450 BC, fellows with high riding noses (see profile) and sloped skull, antler head piece




    polydactyly is seen on many Southwestern American petroglyphs

    Polydactyly in the Southwest: art or anatomy—a photo essay



    GIANTS, KACHINAS, AND CANNIBALS

    Gary A. David, an independent researcher and author, writes about legends in the Southwest of giants that reportedly lived among the Hopis and other tribes. He writes of some evidence suggesting cannibalism was practiced among the Anasazi Indians.


    Giants, Kachinas, and Cannibals
    Gary A. David


    Jimmy Swagger interviews Gary David here:


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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Quote White People Behaving Badly and Ancient Giants
    Thursday, February 06, 2014
    By Teresa A. Panther-Yates

    What if there once really were giants? We are familiar with tales of giants in fairy tales, like those in Jack and the Bean Stalk, or in tall-tales in movies like Big Fish. Giants are also mentioned in the Bible in several places: ” There were giants in those days” (Genesis 6:4). They have become part of our popular culture. But now that we have grown up, we no longer believe in giants. We no longer believe they could have ever existed, just as we no longer believe in the existence of Cinderella or Santa Claus.

    What if we are wrong? According to the author of a new book on the subject of giant humanoids in Earth's past, "We live in an age where we are hypnotized by our own ignorance." The book is titled The Ancient Giants Who Ruled America: The Missing Skeletons and the Great Smithsonian Cover-Up, and the author is Richard J. Dewhurst. It appeared last month from Bear & Company, a Rochester, Vermont publisher.

    Spoiler alert: if you swallow without reflection what the U.S. Government and the American public education system tell you about Native Americans, you won't like this book. You will probably throw it down in disgust and go on Wikipedia to be reassured that giants don't exist. Similarly, if you think it is an act akin to madness to suggest that not only was there a race of eight-foot-tall people who dominated North America from as early as 20,000 BCE but also they were superior to white Europeans in strength, intelligence, health, diet, family life, government, religion and the arts, stop right here and read no farther. It goes against all right-thinking Darwinists, doesn't it?

    The Cherokee called them the Moon People.The Utes and Paiutes spoke of a hideous race of cannibals ten feet tall living in caves. And the Choctaw also have an account of the race of giants that first colonized the Ohio Valley. Ancient oral history predates our modern history textbooks. It was important to relay information down, as in any culture, so it was not always storytelling. Could there have been giants? If so, could they have been Denisovan Hybrids and ancient cousins on our family tree? This is but conjecture. There is no conclusive evidence of the size of the Denisovans since thus far we only have a finger bone, two teeth, and a toe bone ( Anne Gibbons Science Magazine article, ” Genome Brings Ancient Girl to Life.”).

    Even if there were giants, we don’t know who they were or the rest of the story. We only have clues. But if they were an ancient human or human cousin at some point there must have been some hot hanky- panky and some bizarre rendezvous as some have suggested ancient humans had with Denisovans, like Ileana Llorens does in her Huffington Post article, “Denisovans Mated with Humans.” If that is the case, some of us might have the ancestry of giants, or as the Cherokee called them, the Moon People.

    According to Cherokee and Choctaw traditions and confirmed by excavations of bones in Tennessee, there was a “race of white giants” that once inhabited Tennessee, and “with whom their ancestors fought when they arrived in Mississippi in their migration from the west, doubtless Old Mexico.” Their tradition tells of the Nahullo (a race of giants who were wizards of amazing stature). This was considered to be but a “foolish fable, the creature of a wild imagination” but … “their exhumed bones again prove the truth of the Choctaws’ tradition.” (Donald N. Yates, Old World Roots of the Cherokee, p. 150).

    Where did they find bones of the Moon People? Cushman, an Indian historian in his early work, History of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Cherokee Indians, (1898), recounts the discovery in 1880 at a burial mound site near Plano, Texas, of human bones “of enormous size . . . the femoral bones being five inches longer than the ordinary length, and the jaw bones . . . so large as to slip over the face of a man with ease.” Cushman goes on to identify them with the older occupants of North America called Allegewi or Taligewi (Talegans). Many historians, moreover, speculate they were the builders of the Adena mounds.

    According to Rolling Thunder, a story was told by the Comanches in 1857 about the Moon people:

    Innumerable moons ago, there was a race of white men, ten feet high, and far more rich and powerful than any white people now living, who inhabited a large range of country, extending from the rising to the setting sun. Their fortifications crowned the summits of the mountains, protecting their populous cities situated in the intervening valleys. They excelled every other nation which was flourished, either before or since, in all manner of cunning handicraft—were brave and warlike—ruling over the land they had wrested from its ancient possessors with a high and haughty hand. Compared with them the palefaces of the present day were pygmies, in both art and arms. They drove the Indians from their homes, putting them to the sword, and occupying the valleys in which their fathers had dwelt before them since the world began. At length, in the height of their power and glory, when they remembered justice and mercy no more and became proud and lifted up, the Great Spirit descended from above, sweeping them with fire and deluge from the face of the earth. The mounds we [i.e. the speaker Chief Rolling Thunder and his Spanish listener] had seen on the tablelands were the remnants of their fortresses, and the crumbling ruins that surrounded us all that remained of a mighty city.


    Could the words Nahoolo or Nahullo be a reference to these Moon people? The word Nahoolo or Nahullo “is now emphatically applied to the white race and no other . . . The Nahullo were of white complexion, according to Choctaw tradition, and were still an existing people at the time of the advent of the Choctaws to Mississippi,” concludes Cushman (153). And the Indian trader and historian, James Adair, often makes a reference to the Nahoolo or Nahullo in his History of the American Indians (1775).

    There are other accounts of giants in this country and elsewhere. Fritz Zimmerman’s book, The Nephilim Chronicles, reproduces over 300 historical accounts of giant skeletons. Many are associated with the earliest mound sites in America, but Zimmerman’s survey of this worldwide phenomenon ranges from the Hunter-Fisher People of northeast Europe and Red Paint People whose movements were circumpolar to the giants of the Bible, noted by the Babylonian Talmud as having double rows of teeth, and “Giants’ Remains in the British Isles.” And Navajo legends speak of the Starnake People, a regal race of white giants endowed with mining technology who dominated the West, enslaved lesser tribes and had strongholds all through the Americas. They were either extinguished or “went back to the heavens.” The name may be a corruption of the Biblical race known as Anakim (Num. 13:33, Deut. 1:28).

    The name Og (Hebrew “chief”) appears to be characteristic (see Zimmerman, pp. 188-91). The ogham alphabet is attributed to this cultural founder. Certainly, if these Moon people existed, they did not live peacefully with their neighbors. Many of the mound sites uncovered in the nineteenth century tell a story of constant warfare by incoming Asiatic tribes against the giants occupying the land. One grisly scene showed thousands of skeletons, male, female and young heaped in a mass grave, with warriors’ skulls pierced by arrows. It would appear that as these aboriginal inhabitants of the Ohio Valley were gradually displaced, some members of their society went over into the ranks of the new conquerors, bequeathing a strain of great stature still noticeable, for instance, in the Mobilian chief Tuscaloosa and DeSoto’s Indian queen Cofitachiqui, both of whom were said to be seven feet tall.

    When Denisovan Man was first discovered, we had just a fingerbone to go on. We can only imagine the look of the skull. Geneticists conjecture an Austronesian type. Will a geneticist in the future derive ancient DNA from the bones of a giant? According to reliable investigative sources, there are thousands of full skeletons available at the Smithsonian, Carnegie Instistute and other repositories, who have routinely swept the subject under the carpet for 150 years.

    Perhaps at some point, DNA testing companies will have a test to see if you have Moon people in your ancestry. Not yet. But I do have some very tall Tennesseans in my ancestry.

    - See more at: http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_....7fxDK3O4.dpuf
    Quote Were They Possibly Denisovan Hybrids?

    The Cherokee called them the Moon People. The Utes and Paiutes spoke of a hideous race of cannibals ten feet tall living in caves. And the Choctaw also have an account of the race of giants that first colonized the Ohio Valley.

    From Old World Roots of the Cherokee, chapter 5, "America's Middle Ages," pp. 78-79, we read:

    What kind of Indians lived in the territory the Choctaw and Chickasaw carved out for their new home? According to their traditions, reports Cushman, as confirmed by excavations of bones in Tennessee, it was a “race of white giants”:

    [T]he tradition of the Choctaws . . . told of a race of giants that once inhabited the now State of Tennessee, and with whom their ancestors fought when they arrived in Mississippi in their migration from the west, doubtless Old Mexico. Their tradition states the Nahullo (race of giants [literally, wizards]) was of wonderful stature; but, as their tradition of the mastodon [which used to be found on the Great Plains], so this was also considered to be but a foolish fable, the creature of a wild imagination, when lo! Their exhumed bones again prove the truth of the Choctaws’ tradition (151).

    These giants could have been Rafinesque’s Atlans.

    Cushman then recounts the discovery in 1880 at a burial mound site near Plano, Texas, of human bones “of enormous size . . . the femoral bones being five inches longer than the ordinary length, and the jaw bones . . . so large as to slip over the face of a man with ease.” Cushman goes on to identify them with the older occupants of North America called Allegewi or Taligewi (Talegans). Many historians, moreover, speculate they were the builders of the Adena mounds.

    As for the Chickasaw, Cushman notes that they have no record of their history before the colonial period, although it is assuredly "the same as the Choctaws, being one tribe and people until the division made by their two chiefs Chikasah and Chahtah many years after their arrival and location east of the Mississippi River" (p 358). Of the Natchez, Cushman records that they, "if tradition may be believed, also came from Mexico where they had lived for centuries" (p 440).

    A story was told by the Comanches in 1857:

    Innumerable moons ago, a race of white men, ten feet high, and far more rich and powerful than any white people now living, here inhabited a large range of country, extending from the rising to the setting sun. Their fortifications crowned the summits of the mountains, protecting their populous cities situated in the intervening valleys. They excelled every other nation which was flourished, either before or since, in all manner of cunning handicraft—were brave and warlike—ruling over the land they had wrested from its ancient possessors with a high and haughty hand. Compared with them the palefaces of the present day were pygmies, in both art and arms. They drove the Indians from their homes, putting them to the sword, and occupying the valleys in which their fathers had dwelt before them since the world began. At length, in the height of their power and glory, when they remembered justice and mercy no more and became proud and lifted up, the Great Spirit descended from above, sweeping them with fire and deluge from the face of the earth. The mounds we [i.e. the speaker Chief Rolling Thunder and his Spanish listener] had seen on the tablelands were the remnants of their fortresses, and the crumbling ruins that surrounded us all that remained of a mighty city.[i]

    The word Nahoolo or Nahullo “is now emphatically applied to the white race and no other . . . The Nahullo were of white complexion, according to Choctaw tradition, and were still an existing people at the time of the advent of the Choctaws to Mississippi,” concludes Cushman (p 153) . In agreement, the Indian trader Adair often refers to the Nani Ishtahoolo as departed white ghosts vested with spiritual powers whose descendants were priests and magicians. Their cries and magic spells could still be heard in the mounds like those at Ocmulgee.[ii] These references contribute to the suspicion that the “Indians” who preceded Asiatic tribes from Mexico were, as we would say today, Caucasian.

    About exactly a year ago on this blog, we published a post about "Neanderthals in America," mentioning also the peculiar archaic skeleton that is now a roadside attraction in Arizona, called The Thing. In the meantime, we acquired a copy of Fritz Zimmerman's book, The Nephilim Chronicles, which reproduces over 300 historical accounts of Giant skeletons. Many are associated with the earliest mound sites in America, but Zimmerman's survey of this worldwide phenomenon ranges from the Hunter-Fisher People of northeast Europe and Red Paint People whose movements were circumpolar to the giants of the Bible, noted by the Babylonian Talmud as having double rows of teeth, and "Giants' Remains in the British Isles" (pp. 157-65).

    Navajo legends speak of the Starnake People, a regal race of white giants endowed with mining technology who dominated the West, enslaved lesser tribes and had strongholds all through the Americas. They were either extinguished or "went back to the heavens." The name may be a corruption of the Biblical race known as Anakim (Num. 13:33, Deut. 1:28). The name Og (Hebrew "chief") appears to be characteristic (see Zimmerman, pp. 188-91). The ogham alphabet is attributed to this cultural founder.

    Certainly, many of the mound sites uncovered in the nineteenth century tell a story of constant warfare by incoming Asiatic tribes against the giants occupying the land. One grisly scene showed thousands of skeletons, male, female and young heaped in a mass grave, with warriors' skulls pierced by arrows. It would appear that as these aboriginal inhabitants of the Ohio Valley were gradually displaced, some members of their society went over into the ranks of the new conquerors, bequeathing a strain of great stature still noticeable, for instance, in the Mobilian chief Tuscaloosa and DeSoto's Indian queen Cofitachiqui, both of whom were said to be seven feet tall.

    We are struck by the following traits of this giant race or ethnic group from human prehistory:

    Mother Goddess religion
    Copper (not bronze) axes
    Polished slate tools including fishing plummets, which were apparently regarded as sacred
    Belief that the Grandmother Moon was the repository of souls
    Diet emphasizing shellfish (for which the double row of teeth probably was selected as an evolutionary advantage in their beachcomber origin out of Africa?)
    Building of fish weirs in North American rivers to trap migrating eels
    Certain vegetarian habits (wild rice, for instance)
    Inscriptions on artifacts, especially pipes, often buried with the dead
    Use of coal and petroleum
    Weaving and looms
    Knowledge of seafaring, mathematics and engineering, including canals and irrigation
    Burying of a dog with a child to guard the latter in the afterlife
    A language apparently Afro-Asiatic and close to Semitic tongues
    Kingcraft: nobles were buried in seated positions on thrones surrounded by a coterie of their retainers


    When Denisovan Man was first discovered, we had just a fingerbone to go on. We can only extrapolate the look of the skull. Geneticists conjecture, however, that it was an Austronesian type. We suggest that a modern prize of science will belong to the geneticist who can derive ancient DNA to study and classify from the bones of giant hominids that are unavoidably plentiful in the archeological and mythological records of humankind.

    Maybe the owner of The Thing will allow researchers to borrow one of the femurs for laboratory analysis and measurement. If that's not possible, the Smithsonian, Carnegie Institute and dozens of local historical societies throughout the Midwest have basements and storage facilities brimming with these relics of American history.
    - See more at: http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_....D6JN4c9O.dpuf

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    More Interesting FYI IMO from Capricorn radio concerning Biblical accounts and meaning of Nephilim, giants, other earth based humanoids and megalithic architecture as Nephilim architecture...






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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Egypt is a "deep mystical and esoteric civilization" with roots very far back into the shrouded mystery of time....
    John Anthony West is IMO one the most brilliant synthesists I know about.
    What was the true legacy on which Egypt was established?



    Antoine Gigal is a French Egyptologist who reads and speaks Arabic. She is also brilliant IMO
    Quote Egypt before the pharaohs
    Certain grey areas remain in the history of this Egypt that fascinates us so much. How did this civilization begin? Why does the papyrus of Manetho, which provides the chronology of the pharaohs, so upset official Egyptology? Antoine Gigal gives a progress report on recent discoveries.

    The pre-pharaonic past of Egypt remains a very great enigma because the question remains as to what exactly occurred during the mysterious period prior to 3000 BC, date of the appearance of the first official pharaoh known as Menes-Narmer. At that time, in a few decades, without any warning, there suddenly appeared in a surprisingly perfect form, writing, perfect pyramids, erudite astronomy, technical skills and knowledge - everything that goes with a very sophisticated civilization. And it all seems to have arrived very quickly.

    As the English Egyptologist Toby Wilkinson put it so well: "They seem to have no ancestors or periods of development, they seem to have appeared overnight." The French authority Gaston Maspero (1846-1916) comments about the Egyptian texts: "The religion and the texts which made it known to us were already established before the first dynasty. In order to understand them it is up to us to put ourselves in the frame of mind of the people who constructed them, more than seven thousand years ago." (Revue de l'Histoire des Religions, vol. XIX, p.12). Yes, that's what it says: "before the first dynasty"!
    AN INCREDIBLE DIVINE LEGACY

    The ancient Egyptians viewed their civilization as a legacy coming directly from divine beings who existed in Egypt thousands of years before the pharaonic dynasties that we know about. The papyrus of Turin (or more exactly the royal canon displayed at the museum of Egyptology of Turin), written in hieroglyphics and dating back to Ramses II, presents a list of all the pharaohs who reigned in the land of Egypt.
    This list includes not only the historical pharaohs, but also the "divine pharaohs who came from elsewhere" who reigned before the first dynasty of Menes. We are also told that this preceding lineage reigned for 13,420 years!...............

    ............What is curious but significant is that today's Egyptologists still use Manetho's dating, which is considered perfectly reliable for everything related to the "officially" recognized dynasties; but they carefully avoid anything that relates to the prehistoric dynasties, while still regarding him as the "Father" of Egyptology! Strange intellectual acrobatics in order to remain "politically correct"! Mainstream Egyptology avoids talking much about Manetho, because they find some of the details he gives extremely disturbing.

    Manetho wrote for example that according to the stelae coming from the gods of the first (real) dynasty, more than 20,000 works were attributed to Thoth (Tehuti, Hermes). He also reported that these same gods reigned from 33,894 to 23,642 BC. It must be said that this is more than a little disturbing, coming from one whose work is the basis for the entire official chronology of the dynasties recognized as authentic. How handy it is to take some of the facts provided and ignore others that don't fit into our mindset … However Champollion, who had read many original texts, endowed as he was with a sense of flair and extraordinary genius, recognized the existence of at least 42 of these books of Thoth: "There are altogether 42 principal books of Hermes [Thoth] including 36 presenting the whole of Egyptian philosophy, which are studied by the priests of the upper classes." (L'Egypte Ancienne, Paris)

    Manetho gives us very interesting details on the dynasties called "divine", which he divides into three categories: Gods, Heroes, and "Manes". He also explains that the category of the Gods was divided into seven sections, each having a god at its head, including Horus, Anubis, Thoth, Ptah, Osiris and Ra, and that "these gods who originated from Earth then became celestial and associated with the stars as they reached heaven". (It does indeed say "originating from Earth" - and there is undoubtedly much to be discovered in the subterranean realms of our planet.) Next are the Heroes, beings with supernatural terrestrial powers, and finally the "Manes" (also called "Khus"), glorious beings corresponding to the spirits of ancestors revered in other cultures. Osiris himself says, in The Book of Coming Out by Day: "The tunnels of the Earth gave me birth." And according to Plutarch, who wrote a very erudite work on the cult of Isis and Osiris, "Ra departed to the heavens and Osiris became pharaoh of Egypt with Isis and they built Thebes [the present Luxor]". Finally there are many pre-dynastic genealogies cited by many serious scholars of the early years of our era, like that of Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea in Palestine, and that of the most important Byzantine chronicler, Syncellus, residing also in Palestine........

    ..............Proven Physical Remains: the Anu People

    Let us focus initially on the work of the French Egyptologist Emile Amélineau (1850-1915), who devoted himself to the first dynasties and who excavated, for the first time, the tombs of the pharaohs of the first (official) dynasty. In his excavations in the south of Egypt he discovered evidence of the existence of already advanced people earlier than the Pharaohs of the first dynasty. He discovered in particular the people of black race, the Anu (sometimes called "Aunu"). (Nothing to do with the Annunaki, although it sounds like a similar word.)

    They raised livestock and practised extensive agriculture all along the Nile and protected themselves inside the defensive walls of cities. They founded the towns of Esna (Anu Tseni), Erment (Anu Menti), Qush, Gebelein (Anti) and even Heliopolis (which was originally named "Anu"). These cities include in their written names the characteristic symbol designating the Anu people, the three columns. And according to many researchers (Chandler, etc), the greatest figures of ancient Egypt, such as Osiris, Isis, Hermes and Horus came from this ancient Anu race. May I remind you that according to the ancient texts, Osiris, for example, is known as "Son of Geb and Nut, born in Thebes in Upper Egypt", which gives him a reality in historical life; the texts even say that he taught the arts of agriculture and established the rule of law. (For my part, I do not totally agree with the thesis that these beings originated only among the Anu.)

    The noble Tera-Neter of the Anu, from William Flinders Petrie, The Making of Egypt, 1939.

    In any case the Anu knew the use of metals and ivory, they were very organized and knew how to write. This was proven by many artefacts found by Amélineau in the region of Abydos and described in his Nouvelles Fouilles d'Abydos. The archaeologist pointed out: "If Osiris was of Nubian origin, although born in Thebes, then it would be easy to understand why the fight between Osiris and Seth took place in Nubia." (Prolégomènes, pp.124-5). Let us not forget that according to certain researchers, Anu is a term applied to Osiris himself. Amélineau comments that it was "in an ethnic sense that we must read the term Anu applied to Osiris." He also quotes a passage from Chapter 15 of The Book of the Dead (of which the real title is The Book of Coming Out into the Light): "O Thou God Anu in the mountainous land of Antem! O Great God of the double solar mountain!" It was the name of Osiris in his role as fourth Pharaoh on Earth which the Greeks translated by Onnuphris, that is to say, "the Good".

    We have an extraordinary object from pre-dynastic Anu found by the great English Egyptologist William Flinders Petrie (1853-1942) in Abydos. It is a glazed and inscribed earthenware tile, unearthed from below the dynastic temple. The inscription bears the portrait of the Anu ruler, Tera-neter. There is even his address at the top: "Palace of the Anu at Ermant, Tera-neter."

    Existence of Several Groups


    But the Anu are only one contribution to Egyptian civilization. There are others, as is being revealed more and more with the latest archaeological discoveries in the south of Egypt. We should include also the Mesnitu (whom certain researchers identify with the Shemsu Hor) who came from Punt, more precisely from Somalia. Their land was called Ta Neteru ('the land of the gods'). They were mostly metal workers and blacksmiths and ended up eventually dominating the Anu and their Nubian land Ta Seti ('the land of the bond' or 'the land of the prow' according to translation) of Sudan. Gradually the two lands were assimilated into one, Ta Khent ('land of the beginning'). The physical difference between the Anu and the Mesnitu is noted in their jaws: those of the Anu are rounder and short whereas those of the Mesnitu are square like that of Narmer-Menes. But there are also sub-groups within these two groups, such as the Beja (among the Mesnitu) and the Rekhytu people in north (who arrived in the valley of the Nile by Coptos) and groups supporting or mixing with the Anu coming from Sinai and Libya.
    Early Egyptian peoples.

    The history is complex because there are yet more groups of various origins: the Aamu of Asian style but dressed like Egyptians and living in the mountains of Egypt; the Nehesy, living beyond present-day Sudan, the Temehu of the Western Desert, Libya and the northern coasts of Egypt. All these people were not just simple aboriginal hunters as some think. They had great knowledge and organization; but then where did their knowledge come from in such remote times?

    READ THE REST HERE Egypt before the pharaohs

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Laird Scranton is mentioned by John Anthony West. His study of the Dogon's science displayed in their myth and symbolism is congruent with 21st physics.

    Quote The clear implication of the Dogon myths and their apparent relationship to science is that, at some point prior to 3400 BC, mankind was the beneficiary of deliberate civilizing instruction presented (if the Dogon account is to be believed) by careful, well-meaning, knowledge-able teachers. Such instruction could account for the apparently sudden rise of Egyptian civilization from the backdrop of earlier hunter tribes. It could also account for the numerous cultural histories of ancestor-teacher-gods found around the world. The myths, symbols, traditions, symbolic languages, and shrines of ancient cultures-the mnemonic devices by which this instruction was seemingly transmitted and sustained-are the apparent evidence of this instruction, and the serpent - an Egyptian symbol for "the Word"- is the teacher's signature icon.

    If the impulse to associate the various ancient world mythologies with a single planned mythological system is driven by apparent similarities between myths of ancient societies, then the confirmation of such a relationship lies in what-to all logical modes of thought-should be their apparent differences, had they actually arisen independently of each other. For example, it is clear that the mere impulse on the part of an ancient society to build a structure that was aligned with the stars would not logically dictate (Jung notwithstanding) a mythology that expresses itself in terms of archetypical symbols such as water, fire, wind, and earth. Nor is there compelling reason for that same culture to adopt a belief that the civilizing skills of humanity, were imparted to them by ancestral teachers. Likewise, there would be no automatic reason for such a culture to assert that written language was a gift from these same teachers. To my way of thinking, one critical omission on the part of most researchers of ancient myth has been to ignore these unexplained similarities, which seem to coexist among widely divergent societies but without compelling reason. These unreasoned connections function like fingerprints found at a crime scene. Often, they are what enable us to positively align parallel ancient mythologies. In my view, these kinds of connections, perhaps along with undiscovered relationships of ancient language, are the likely foundation upon which to build future arguments in favor of a global ancient system of instructional myth.

    Laird Scranton - The Science of the DogonThe Science of the Dogon by Laird Scranton: Conclusion....of a single benevolent advanced source for civilization.
    FYI interviews with Laird Scranton:





    Quote The Dogon are an ethnic group living in the central plateau region of Mali, south of the Niger bend near the city of Bandiagara in the Mopti region.Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which has subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956 the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule studied the Dogon. This included field missions ranging from several days to two months in 1931, 1935, 1937 and 1938] and then annually from 1946 until 1956. In late 1946 Griaule spent a consecutive thirty-three days in conversations with the Dogon wiseman Ogotemmêli, the source of much of Griaule and Dieterlen's future publications. They reported that the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or 'star of the Sigui', has two companion stars, pō tolo (the Digitaria star), and ęmmę ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A. Sirius, in the Dogon system, formed one of the foci for the orbit of a tiny star, the companionate Digitaria star. When Digitaria is closest to Sirius, that star brightens: when it is farthest from Sirius, it gives off a twinkling effect that suggests to the observer several stars. The orbit cycle takes 60 years.They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.


    Quote Ancient Chinese Cosmology Points to Earlier Advanced Culture

    Building on his extensive research into the sacred symbols and creation myths of the Dogon of Africa and those of ancient Egypt, India, and Tibet, Laird Scranton investigates the myths, symbols, and traditions of prehistoric China, providing further evidence that the cosmology of all ancient cultures arose from a single now-lost source. Scranton explores the fundamental similarities between the language that defined ancient Chinese cosmology and that of other creation traditions, revealing the connections between the phonetic structure of the words, their glyphs, and their use. He demonstrates striking parallels between the earliest systems of writing in China and the hieroglyphs of ancient Egypt. He examines the 8 levels of creation in Taoism and the cosmological origins of Chinese ancestor worship, mythical emperors, the zodiac, the mandala, and the I Ching. He details the fundamental principles of land-use in ancient China in relation to the symbolism of a Buddhist stupa and the Dogon granary, ritual shrines that are also the central symbol of other creation traditions.
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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Civilization that empowers people to experience wisdom and peace> degeneration and devolution of the original impulse> catyclysm that is unpredictable except in broad strokes> wisdom keepers who have the ability to restart civilization.

    I am sure that this is a common '"story" we may all have heard in bits and pieces.

    Gayle Redfern talks about similarities between the following Indigenous groups. She calls them 5 gaurdian settlements at opposite ends of the globe.

    Hopi approx 35 degrees N, 111 degrees W
    Tibetans 28 degrees N, 84 degrees E
    Dogon 12 degrees N, 8 degrees W
    Kogi 11 degrees N, 74 degrees W
    Waitaha 46 degrees south, 170 degrees E

    Ancient Wisdoms
    By Gayle Redfern


    I had not heard of the Waitaha and found some information and videos.
    My thought is to dilligently unravel all the knowledge we need from the past for the present.

    Quote The Waitaha People – a Chinese colony that settled in New Zealand 2000 years ago.

    The Waitaha nation goes back 2000 years. Two hundred tribes of the Waitaha nation settled in New Zealand and were then decimated by the warlike Maori who invaded the island some 800 years ago as an eerie precursor of the Maori massacre of the Moriori in the Chatham Islands.

    There is a Maori legend that tells of the Waitaha being the descendents of Chinese porters and stone cutters.

    Bary Brailsford, author of ‘Tattooed Land’, ‘Greenstone Trails’, ‘Song of Waitaha’ has said simply:
    “ten years ago when I was called to write the story of Waitaha I was told by the elders that I would be challenged by Maori who did not want the story revealed, by Pakeha in the academic world who would not believe it, and by others who would wlak with their own agendas”.

    The “Song of Waitaha” was a release to the world of secret traditions, geneology, and history, as told to the author by Waitaha elders, asserts Barry Brailsford.

    Brailsford says he had to earn the right. Before beginning work on the book he had to lead a selected team of people across the Southern Alps to reopen old Waitaha greenstone trails closed for 130 years.

    “Until now we have hidden our beginnings, and all that followed, in the shadows. In this way we protected our knowledge in the silence of the Whare Wananga, the School of Learning of Waitaha.”

    “For it has been decided it is time for our treasures to be brought into the light.”

    “We do this for the children, and their children, and all who call this land home.”

    “We are of Tane Matua, and we follow Rongo Marae Roa, the God of Peace.”

    “In the wisdom and aroha (love) of those words, we say: `Let the sacred kete (basket containing sacred knowledge) be opened for the ancestors to speak again. Let the ancient karakia and waiata be heard throughout the land. Welcome to the trails of the peoples of the Nation of Waitaha. May you journey far in peace and understanding.”

    The Waitaha comprised three different peoples: The Moriori, or Maeroero, who at the time were giants, over l.8m and superb gardeners, able to grow the kumara 1000 km further south than in its South American homeland.

    Herries Beattie describes them in Nga Waka Press Release I,
    “… among the first, if not the very first, residents in the South Island. They were here before Maui sailed round from Bruce Bay to Kaikoura between the years 400-450 AD … they were a kindly people, not bloodthirsty or pugnacious, and timidly fled to the wilds before the advance of later arrivals. They were musical and could play flutes and sing, and the smoke of their fires marked their presence in out-of-the-way spots.”
    The flute was an instrument invented by the Chinese and thence brought to South America where their traditonal panflutes still represent a strong part of their cultural heritage.

    Then there were the Urukehu, a fair-skinned people also known as the Starwalkers who were skilled at reading the geometry of the stars and were the navigators guiding the people to this land; and the Kiritea or Stone people, who came from Asian lands and who carried the greenstone over mountain passes.

    The Waitaha, claiming that they pre-empt the Maori of course challenge the Waitangi Tribunal. Waitaha leader Rangimarie Te Maiharoa says the settlement will “extinguish customary rights and aboriginal title of our people”.

    Particularly tantalising is a buried Waitaha village in the Kaipara dunes – it first made an appearance several years ago when a fierce storm temporarily shifted sand. Only to return and cover it up again.


    Last edited by Delight; 14th February 2015 at 17:42.

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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Peter Marsh has focused on the history of Polynesian people. He reports that the latest movement of Polynesians was about 2000 years ago. In investigating the story he also realized that the true history of Polynesians was also the history of ignored global civilizations (Atlantis and others). The following videos and quotes are all from Peter Marsh.







    His synthesis is a very significant contribution to the chronology of human development and periodic diaspora in the wake of catastrophes that ended "worlds".

    Quote The general consensus of geneticists is that the present species of humans - Homo Sapiens began in Africa 150,000 years ago. This has been spelled out fairly clearly by Bryan Sykes in his book 'The Seven Daughters of Eve'. Despite this, we must not forget that there have been many species of humans or bipetal hominids with opposing thumbs that have populated the world before us. The Leaky family did extensive studies in Africa on a 3 million year old bipetal hominid they called Lucy. Recently a 7 million year old bipetal hominid (human) skull was unearthed in Chad by professor Michel Brunet of the University of Poitiers in France. There is also a variety of Homo erectus, Java man, Peking man and Australopithecus, Giganthropus to name a few, some were less than a metre tall others were over four metres tall. With their opposing thumbs, they were all capable of using tools such as hammers, axes and spears. Large 20kg axe heads have been found associated with 60cm footprints in New South Wales, which indicates the size and technological development of these people 800,000 years ago. The tools are thought to have been made by 'Java Man', as similar aged tools have been found in Indonesia. Just as we see a great range of body sizes in the canine species, from Great Danes to Chihuahuas, it is only logical to assume there has been a similar variation with humans. When Sabre toothed tigers, Diprotodons, Woolly Mammoths and other large and powerful beasts dominated the environment, large and powerful people would have had a better chance of survival against these predators. On the other hand, smaller people would have had a better chance of survival after a natural catastrophe, such as a comet impact, where dust was thrown up into the atmosphere, dimming the earth for a few years, causing cooling, massive droughts and a scarcity of food. The locality of impacts, eruptions and tsunamis would have played a big part in who the survivors were. Rather than 'survival of the fittest', chance, had a much bigger part to play in determining who the survivors were.

    Proof of the diversity in humans can be seen from recent studies in Indonesia where they unearthed 'the Hobbit' a very small human, from about 13,000 years ago. The skeleton was about one metre tall.

    Skeletons at Kow Swamp in New South Wales shows that Homo Erectus was alive and well in Australia only 10,000 years ago. Clear evidence that there were many breeds of humans right up to less than 10,000 years ago.
    Peter Marsh does place Atlantis off the Americas and the movement of (our last 6000 year) post deluvian culture from the Americas.

    Quote Ancient America

    The Pacific Ocean is bounded by America on its eastern side, stretching from 70degrees North to 55 degrees south. As trade winds and equatorial ocean currents travel in a westerly direction, it would be foolish to assume that America did not play a part in the populating of the Pacific. Therefore, to ascertain the complexities of human migration in the Pacific region, we need to understand fully how America was populated.

    It appears that there have been some gross inaccuracies and misunderstandings that have led scientists to accept an oversimplified model of human entry into America via the Bering land bridge during the height of the last ice age. No consideration to the possibility that ocean crossings played a significant part in the populating of the Americas, has been given. Recent studies of the tool kits of the first Americans suggest an entry from Spain and not from Siberia. Not only this, but paleolithic Caucasian genes appear to form the basal layer of the genetic makeup of many native Americans, helping to confirm a trans-Atlantic entry into Central America between 18,000 and 12,000 years ago. Recent discoveries of three 13,000 year old Cro magnon man skeletons in an underwater cave in the Bahamas suggests that the above is true and correct.

    Almost all archaeology to date has been based on the discovery of sites that are above sea level. Sea levels rose to present day levels about 6,000 years ago, therefore there has to be a great deal hidden underwater prior to this event, distorting the picture of early habitation of our planet. Factors that determined human settlement 20,000 years ago were much the same as they are today, as a result the preferred sites for towns and cities would have been on the coast. The sea provided unhindered passage to other towns for trade (no mountains, canyons, powerful river currents, jungles, deserts or hostile tribes to interfere with ones passage). Not only that, but boats were the trucks of the olden days, transporting large cargoes for trade.

    The availability and choice of food is also more diverse along a coastline, as both land and marine produce can be obtained. Temperatures are less extreme and the likelihood of life giving rain is also much greater. Therefore almost all ancient towns of any consequence would have been by the sea and so, the great majority of towns and cities prior to 6,000 years ago are all underwater from sea level rises since the last ice age.

    Many megalithic monuments around the world are made from rocks that have been transported hundreds of kilometres away from their source, suggesting that large sailing boats were in use 6,000 years ago and possibly as early as 18,000 years ago. Boats were one of the earliest forms of communal transport invented by man, seaworthy boats would have expanded mans horizons immeasurably. As a result of him using the 'highways of the sea', his desire to determine where he was going, fueled a revolution in astronomy, mathematics, trigonometry and ultimately world trade. The Polar meltdown between 7,000 and 5,500 years ago talked about later in this chapter would not only have produced a rapid rise in sea level, but also, the iso static rebound would have caused subsidence of weak crustal areas such as the mid Atlantic Ridge, causing earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tsunamis, resulting in the devastation of coastal towns and the decimation of all seafaring nations around the world. Not only did it destroy the people of this time, but also much of the knowledge which they possessed.

    This was not the only catastrophic rise in sea level that early man has had to deal with, there were others - 14,000, 11,600, 8,200 and 6,000 years ago. It was after these events that we find the survivors taking an interest in swamp agriculture around lakes and on highland plateaus without fear of inundation. Such areas that were chosen were , Lake Chad, Lake Titicaca, New Guinea Highlands, Highlands of Luzon, the Nile, the Tigris, the Indus, the Upper Amazon, the Mississippi, the Mekong, the Yangtze and so on. With these few survivors, they would have retained only the bare essentials and much of the old technology was lost or forgotten. It appears that archaeologists may have mistaken this regrouping of man after the final floods as the beginning of agriculture and civilization. Discoveries of cities around India, Yonaguni and an underwater city in 700m of water off Cuba indicate that archaeologists have grossly misunderstood their findings and have merely scratched the surface of human prehistory.

    Dr Muck, an archaeologist, describes archeological sites in Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Southern Carolina, dating back 15,000-18,000 years which demonstrate that the ocean-going Solutreans may have first entered America by sailing across the Atlantic.

    The notion that Clovis originated in or spread throughout North America from a point of origin in the Northern Plains (within an ice-free corridor between the continental glaciers) is not supported by the distribution of finds. Clovis may actually have dispersed into North and South America from the Caribbean and Central America, much of which is now submerged, making it difficult to ascertain the exact time of entry into America.
    ..............



    The seafloor around the Azores looks very much like the description of Atlantis - the island possibly as it was 11,500 years ago. The home of the Na Dene/Gaelic language and what are now known as Berber/Basque/Celtic genes, now found in pockets around the world from the Indus region to Easter Island. This is the S.E. corner of the much larger island depicted in the above map. Plato described Atlantis as having a flat plain surrounded by mountains to the North. Two of the mountains depicted here are now giant calderas on the seafloor, possibly created in the final cataclysm as Atlantis was destroyed. The two arrows point to two rectangles marked on the marine chart from which this map was taken. These contours do not look natural and should be further investigated.

    The following is an excerpt from Cedric Leonard's webpage Quest for Atlantis;

    In 1948 geologist discovered "beachlike terraces" parallel to the Mid Atlantic ridge, beneath two miles of ocean water. Ewing cautiously observed: "It is, of course, extremely radical speculation to identify these level stretches more than two miles below the sea surface as former beaches. Such a theory would require the obvious but almost incredible conclusion that this land has subsided two miles or else the sea has risen by that amount". However, subsequent expeditions only strengthened the "incredible.

    According to Ewing, long flat stretches were detected 2 to 20 miles wide and hundreds of miles long. These beach-like areas were always covered with thick sediments, indicating a long period of deposition, although occasionally separated by mountainous "higher ground" exhibiting no such sediments. (The Central Highland of the Ridge occasionally approaches four-fifths of a mile from the sea surface.) Ewing observed that deep ocean basins never have thick sediments--which are the result of surf action and river deposition--it is actually shorelines that display thick sediments. More evidence of just how recently such a landmass existed turned up during an expedition the following year.

    The follow-up expedition in 1949 turned up numerous core samples from these terraces. These cores contained two different strata of beach sand: the older estimated to be 225,000-325,000 years of age, and the younger 20,000-100,000 years old (Ewing, 1949). Another significant fact is that the deposits were found to be well-sorted by surf action into the usual pattern of shoreline beaches familiar to geologists (Miller & Scholten, 1966). His conclusion was that: "Sometime in the distant past this sand found deep beneath the ocean must have been located on a beach, at or near the surface of the sea" (Ewing, 1949)

    Still another oceanographic expedition, Swedish Deep-Sea Expedition of 1947-1948, yielded core samples containing sand from the Romache Deep along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Dr. Otto Mellis did not publish these findings until ten years later (Mellis, 1958). Other geologists have guardedly admitted that the Azore Islands (Central Atlantic) are composed chiefly of continental material, some even conceding that there might be enough continental material (sial) in the mid-Atlantic to make up a landmass the size of Spain (de Camp, 1970).

    The six levels of terraces discovered by the Woods Hole expeditions suggest that the Atlantic island was constantly changing shape - as well as being reduced in size - before it finally disappeared at the end of the Ice Age. Such geological changes would have been catastrophic to any life living on such a landmass: the unhappy result of the constant violence of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. If the Atlantic landmass happened to be inhabited by humans, these violent disturbances could well have been the cause of the four Cro-Magnon "invasions". These well documented invasions impacted the western shores of North Africa and Europe (including Great Britain and other Atlantic islands) and occurred during a time frame of 35,000-12,000 years ago (the latter date corresponding closely to the date given by Plato for the demise of Atlantis).

    Archaeological evidence shows that the Clovis people multiplied and spread across North America from the Gulf of Mexico about 13,000 years ago. This period abruptly ended with the demise of the megafauna of North America along with end of the Clovis people. A comet impact in North America around this time as evidenced by the 500,000 craters known as the Carolina Bays (see Catastrophes Chapter) could possibly have been the cause of this abrupt end to an Era in America.....

    ....These craters litter SE America in a variety of soil, sand and silt types, all filled with sediment to the same degree, all of the same age, all with a crater rim on the S.E side only, all elongated N.W. to S.E., all with a layer of blue clay devoid of pollen and organic matter below the silt. Bullets of water impacting the ground either from a disintegrating ice comet or a meteorite striking an ice sheet NW of the Bays, can be the only two explanations for these features. The main body or head of the comet would have landed in the Atlantic Ocean. Geologists believe the resultant Tsunami from such an event would have been as much as 500m high and travelling at over 700 miles an hour. An horrific event.[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Cultural and technological traits common to cultures on opposite sides of the planet are clearly shadows of past maritime civilizations that have been and gone in our distant past. Natural catastrophes have all but wiped out whole civilizations (eg; Atlantis) and the survivors have regrouped and reinvented culture according to what was remembered and what was appropriate under the new and devastated environmental conditions. Rising sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age have all but obliterated any solid evidence of these civilizations prior to 6,000 years ago. The re-emergence of culture after this catastrophic period of an ice age meltdown is logically around lakes and rivers away from the ocean, such as the; Tigris/Euphrates, Indus, Hwang Ho, Nile, Lake Chad, Lake Titicaca, Lake Baikal etc. This regrouping of societies away from the ocean has unfortunately been percieved as "The beginning of society" and it is this misunderstanding that has stood in the way of intelligent discussion regarding this earlier period societal evolution.

    Slowly, with modern science at our fingertips, and an unbiassed mind, this picture of a much more complex past is beginning to take shape. Genetics is showing quite clearly that the Pacific, Indian and Atlantic Oceans were crossed many times in the past, especially from 12,000 years ago through to the Bronze Age, contributing significantly to the commonality of culture between America and 'the old world' which will be discussed in later chapters. Sea trade connections between America and 'the old world' was lost with the advent of the Roman Empire which destroyed both the Phoenicians and the Celtic Sea Kings. With this tragedy, almost all seafaring knowledge was lost to the western world until people began sifting through the libraries of Spain and Turkey in the 13-15th centuries, relearning some of this lost knowledge.

    This may be diverging from Polynesian history a little, but until this bigger picture of the changing face of man - especially in America, can be fully understood, one cannot make sense of anamolous research findings with regard to the dispersal of man out of America of which the Polynesian story is very much a part of. Of particular interest are the origins of a rapidly disappearing breed of man represented by the; red haired Easter Islanders (the Long Ear Ororoina and his descendants); the Auriaria of Samoa; the Ururkehu and the Waitaha people of New Zealand - all of which are very much a part of the Polynesian story. [QUOTE]

    The Celts were originally from America according to his research conclusions

    Quote Genetic similarities between Europeans and American Indians

    Archaeologists are just beginning to realize that to understand European prehistory, American prehistory must also be considered. The Solutreans of Spain are now believed to have crossed the Atlantic using the southern Equatorial current and entered the Caribbean and Central America between 18,000 and 12,000 years ago to become known as the Clovis hunters of America. Recent genetic findings suggest that the people now known as Gaelic speaking Celts (including Irish, Welsh, Scots, Basques and Berbers) are a remnant of a group of people who also left Spain between 1,8000 and 12,000 years ago and spent 6,000 years isolated from Europe before returning, bringing the Megalithic culture to coastal Europe.

    Geneticist Prof Steve Jones, who recently published a book called Y - The Descent of Man, said;

    "Genetics provided more reliable clues to the distant past than language did". He and colleagues at University College, London, have spent years creating a genetic map of the Y chromosome, which is passed by males from generation to generation. The results show that the Welsh are related to the Basques of northern Spain and southern France and to native Americans. He said: "There has been much less interbreeding in Wales than you might expect. Wales and Ireland have the most homogenous group of males of anywhere in the world, from the research that's been done so far".

    He said; "The Y chromosome common among Welsh males was an ancient one. Most native Americans have the same one. Surprisingly perhaps, the genetics show that the Welsh are not related to the Cornish, despite the similarity of their languages. The Cornish are in effect Anglo-Saxons who for a time used a language that was hanging around. The genes of Scottish males betrayed considerable inter-mixing with outsiders".

    James Wilson and Prof David Goldstein of University College London, with colleagues at Oxford University and the University of California, found that Welsh and Irishmen are genetic blood-brothers of the Basque people.

    "The findings provide the first direct evidence of a close relationship between the people known as Celts and the Basques. The gene patterns of three races passed down through the male line are all strikingly similar, researchers concluded. Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions.

    The team looked for similarities between the Y chromosomes (which are only carried by men) they sampled DNA from; 88 “Celtic fringe” individuals from Anglesey, North Wales, 146 from Ireland with Irish Gaelic surnames, and 150 Basques, revealing “remarkable' similarities. On the other hand, he and his colleagues compared Celtic and Norwegian populations and found them to be quite different.

    The Celts carried the early Y chromosome, which provides the first clear evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of Basque and Celtic speaking populations. “They were statistically indistinguishable', we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the male Y-chromosome, We conclude that both the Basques and Celts are reflecting pre-farming Europe. Somehow these people have remained in isolation from the rest of Europe up until the Bronze age where their genes begin to indicate an influx of female genes from mainland Europe" said Prof Goldstein.

    The other scenario is that these people were not living in Europe, but were in the Caribbean, the East Coast of America and on islands in the Atlantic.

    Barry Fell, author of 'America B.C.' is an accomplished decipherer of ancient scripts and has managed to identify a great deal of Celtic, Phoenician, Iberian, Egyptian, Berber, Libyan and Viking scripts in America, indicating that a great deal of trade contact occurred during and after the Bronze Age, but ceasing around the time of the beginning of the Roman Empire. Apparently these great ocean navigators after the destruction of Carthage, decided to withhold all information on navigating to the Americas from the Romans and by the end of the Roman Empire and the onset of the dark ages, much was forgotten about trans Atlantic navigation and the Americas.

    Barry Fell has identified Ogham script in America, Ireland, Spain and Africa that goes back to at least 800BC. Early Egyptian scripts were used by the Micmac of North America right up to the arrival of Missionaries. He also identifies many early style Celtic Megalithic monuments on the east coast of America, in particular New England, New Hampshire, Vermont and Woodstock, they take the form of Dolmens, Phallic menhir, Men-a-tol, massive stone Druid's chairs, megalithic chambers, Solstice and Equinox viewing chambers and burial mounds. These all parallel similar structures in Coastal Europe, especially on the Dingle peninsular, Brittany and some sites in Spain. As usual, this work has been ignored by the Eurocentric 'No one before Columbus' fraternity.

    Although Barry Fell did not go further than assert that most Celtic connections occurred around the Bronze Age. He was not aware of the more ancient genetic connections the Celts had with the proto-American Indians. With further studies done, more accurate dating of the Dolmens and other megalithic monuments will possibly show that some American megaliths may actually predate the arrival of Celts on the Dingle peninsular in Ireland, indicating that the Caribbean and America was the original homeland of the Celts.


    Anasazi cup and spirals compared to spirals on a rock marking the entrance to a Celtic tomb.



    Anasazi Gazelles, compared to a Celtic petroglyph




    Amerindians; Shoshone, Crow and Zuni, show that the Boundaries between people on the either side of the Atlantic is not as great as some would like to make out. (Interestingly the ancestry of the Shoshone becomes a little clearer when we see that a 22nd dynasty Egyptian king from ~1,000BC was King Shishong/Shosheng.

    Peter Marsh' http://www.polynesian-prehistory.com/website weaves the threads related to seeming unconnected questions well IMO. He considers how Cro Magnon traits dis appear along with Atlantis. He describes the Atlantians:

    Quote studies show that Mayans, Incas and Auracanians are all virtually 100% group O, with 5-20% of the population being rhesus negative. this was the blood of the original Europeans, traditionally called the blood of royalty (blue blood) and stems from Cro Magnon man. The races that possess this blood are races of the Americas, the Canary Islands, the Basques, Celts, as well as some Polynesians.

    6,000 years ago there are many indications that there was a terrible calamity. It is believed sea levels rose to two metres above their present levels. Genetic bottlenecks from this time suggest there were many large populations reduced to small numbers all over the world. There appears to have been an exodus from East Asia to America at this time as well as an Exodus from America to Europe.When the Rhesus positive Asians arrived in America 6,000 years ago, they inevitably interbred with the Rhesus negative Red Heads. This would have proved disasterous, for the already decimated population of Red Heads, as a rhesus negative mother who gives birth to a rhesus positive baby develops antibodies against rhesus positive blood and is then unable to succesfully have any more children without the help of modern medicine. Not only this, but blue eyes, blonde and red hair are all recessive genes and so the European heritage of American Indians was masked by the genes of the new comers. One dominant genetic trait reveals the Cro Magnon man heritage is hidden in American Indians is their tallness. Gigantism, common in America is also a genetic throwback to a time that once was, when 'size did matter' for survival, when hunting mammoths and sabre toothed tigers was a part and parcel of daily activities.

    Age of the White Haired Giants

    Aztec and Toltec history identifies that 17,608 years ago was the beginning of "The Age of the First Sun" or the "Age of White Haired Giants", or in Inca history - the Age of Viracochas - the “White and Bearded Gods”. According to European archaeology, Cro Magnon man was quite tall, had pale skin, blonde hair and was capable of growing beards. It sounds to me like cultures on either side of the Atlantic are describing the same breed of man.

    Archaeological finds in America appear to confirm the existence of very tall people being the base layer of the Native American cultures.

    A skeleton estimated as being 10,000 years old was found in the ‘tomb of Palli Aike' in Tierra del Fuego in 1969-70 and has been identified as Cro-Magnon, which indicates that these people also spread to South America.

    In the book, The Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee, author John Haywood describes; "very large" bones in stone graves found in Williamson County, Tennessee, in 1821. In White County, Tennessee, an "ancient fortification" contained skeletons of gigantic stature averaging at least 7 feet in length.

    In February and June of 1931, large skeletons were found in the Humboldt lake bed near Lovelock, Nevada. The first of these two skeletons found measured 8 1/2 feet tall and appeared to have been wrapped in a gum-covered fabric similar to the Egyptian manner. The second skeleton was almost 10 feet long.(Review - Miner, June 19, 1931).

    George W. Hill, M.D., dug out a skeleton "of unusual size" in a mound of Ashland County, Ohio. In 1879, a nine-foot, eight-inch skeleton was excavated from a mound near Brewersville, Indiana(Indianapolis News, Nov 10, 1975)

    In 1875 workmen were constructing a bridge near the mouth of Paw Paw Creek at Rivesville. While digging through heavy clay soil they were astonished to uncover three giant skeletons strands of reddish hair clinging to the skulls. A local doctor was called to examine the remains and was able ascertain after careful measurement, the skeletons had supported people approximately 8 feet tall.

    Just as black haired Greeks had an earlier past of taller blonde and red haired people (the Titans), so did the Amerindians.

    The Golden Age

    13,600 years ago In Aztec legends, was the beginning of the Age of the Second Sun - the “Golden Age” and is remembered in Incan legends as the “Age of Giants”. This Age lasted 4,010 years, it began with the Biblical and Sumerian Great Flood, followed by the Deluge and ended with a calamity involving the Wind Serpent. The demise of Atlantis was somewhere in the middle of this.

    European legends from Ireland, Brittany, Spain and North Africa and Egypt talk of their legendary homeland being on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, and in some legends it was called Atlantis.

    This is how Central Americans remembered the people of Atlantis - interesting guns and breastplate they carry.



    This is not the image archaeologists would have us believe for the Clovis hunter-gatherers from 11,500 years ago.

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    Belgium Avalon Member Violet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    This is not a subject I study a lot, so I will apologize in advance if this is totally irrelevant or off-topic.

    In one of my albums is a map that I acquired during a dream. This is the link to it: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/albu...chmentid=27436 (there's a comment below the picture).

    I was compelled the next day to try and find some meaning. Those islands (if they are*) I was shown were located in the Atlantic, I visited the one in the middle. When I looked up a few things it appeared like that could have been related to Atlantis and those people I met, might have been the inhabitants.
    It would be interesting to see if of any of the things witnessed actually coincide with what has been found on Atlantis.

    *= the two outer islands do look like Africa and South America. So, they could also be that instead of smaller islands contained within these two boundaries.

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    Avalon Member Delight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Quote Posted by Violet (here)
    Those islands (if they are*) I was shown were located in the Atlantic, I visited the one in the middle. When I looked up a few things it appeared like that could have been related to Atlantis and those people I met, might have been the inhabitants.
    It would be interesting to see if of any of the things witnessed actually coincide with what has been found on Atlantis.

    *= the two outer islands do look like Africa and South America. So, they could also be that instead of smaller islands contained within these two boundaries.
    Hi Violet,
    Though I have no idea where your map points. I am curious? Just for fun, here is your map



    and a placing of Atlantis on the site of the Atlantic ridge for comparison



    Here is what Peter Marsh says about the picture

    Quote This map shows the position of the coastline during the height of the last ice age about 18,000 years ago. Seafloor topography clearly reveals the island of Atlantis in the Mid Atlantic. This area was pushed up to the ocean surface during the height of the last ice age as a reaction to the weight of over 3 km of ice on the poles, which depressed the crust in the Polar regions and caused weak areas of the the crust in mid lattitudes to distend outwards as the planet attempted to find an equilibrium. This effect would not be noticed on the continents as their thickness of 30 km or more would resist distortion, but the7-10km thin oceanic floors, especially the Mid Atlantic ridge where a seam of magma reaches the surface, would display the greatest amount of distortion, forcing the seafloor to rise a correspondingly similar distance to the depression at the poles - that is 2-3km. Today we are likely to witness a similar situation with Iceland - another island on the mid Atlantic ridge. As global warming continues to melt the ice at the poles, Iceland too, risks a sudden collapse under the surface of the ocean.

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    Avalon Member Delight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atlantis: where and when was it?

    Quote Posted by Delight (here)
    Egypt is a "deep mystical and esoteric civilization" with roots very far back into the shrouded mystery of time....
    John Anthony West is IMO one the most brilliant synthesists I know about.
    What was the true legacy on which Egypt was established?

    Here is the second half of the conversation above



    Here is the whole of an excellent documentary series


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