If PA had been infiltrated, how would you know who's a troll or not???

[gripreaper]

Well, I look at someone's thread history. Someone who always starts threads and steers the conversation, for example, might join Avalon, and start 30 threads a month. They might want to control the conversation, or come across as the purveyor of relevant and pertinent information, but rarely do they respond to others inquiries or add to already existing threads, even though they are threads which have extensively covered the subjects they themselves are bringing forward "as if" the information is ground breaking. I also look at who they are tag teaming with and who is their voice echo in their threads. Believe it or not, I also calculate their thanks to post ratio to see if Avalonian's are buying what they are selling.

[Natalia]

Constant trolling almost destroyed another forum that I was on, it was so full of life and love and magic, with lots of "good" members (and a few much darker ones) years ago close to when it began...it will never be the same again, most people left...now it is a darker place overall (the moderation team has giving the darker ones too much power). Some of the older members I am sure have come here, and I recently introduced one of them to this place, because she found it too violent there and was looking for a safer/lighter/more loving place.

Looking back, I am glad that I joined there (5) years ago because I got to experience that magic of us finding each other and relating with and connecting to each other after years of being alone with certain things/gifts...I met some soulmates, and although some of us don't contact each other a lot, I know that their love and my love for each other will always be, and most of the ones who I am close to in that soul level way from that group are on my face book page (and also no longer post on that forum, or hardly do).

It seems/feels to me that part of what protects Project Avalon Forum is a very good moderation team, and lots of members/posts, and I know that not everyone can be trusted, but that is the same everywhere. I might seem too trusting at times, but it is because part of what makes me feel alive and happy and aligned with my heart and purpose, is to be open and sharing and connecting...

So, I take the "risk" sometimes, because the alternative would be to be too closed and living in too much fear and hiding too much (I did this for a while years ago after being severely bullied at school - as part of ptsd, and it was hell). it might be a bit different for others as we can have different natures...

[joeecho]

Posted by gripreaper (here)
Well, I look at someone's thread history. Someone who always starts threads and steers the conversation, for example, might join Avalon, and start 30 threads a month. They might want to control the conversation, or come across as the purveyor of relevant and pertinent information, but rarely do they respond to others inquiries or add to already existing threads, even though they are threads which have extensively covered the subjects they themselves are bringing forward "as if" the information is ground breaking. I also look at who they are tag teaming with and who is their voice echo in their threads. Believe it or not, I also calculate their thanks to post ratio to see if Avalonian's are buying what they are selling.

NSA junior is that you?

Sorry, I know the intentions are good and thoughtful however I could not help but be slightly reminded of:

1) Mirrors
2) Fractals
3) As above so below
4) Deja vu
5) Karma
6) and Trains

P.s. I blame my minds eye for these observations.

[andrewgreen]

Posted by Amethyst (here)

So, I take the "risk" sometimes, because the alternative would be to be too closed and living in too much fear and hiding too much (I did this for a while years ago after being severely bullied at school - as part of ptsd, and it was hell). it might be a bit different for others as we can have different natures...

I agree with this, I remember the first time I went traveling, my home town friends were warning me to be more aggressive and less trusting, so less people would view me as a push over. Thankfully I never listened to their advice and learned to trust my own judgement. Sometimes you believe false hoods but all of our society is constructed by them so maybe its a necessary evil. Overall the thread quality is of a high here and if the members shift their attention towards worrying about infiltrators ect the atmosphere and quality would suffer.

[gardener2]

forgive me avalonians I am new here and sometimes I am afraid to speak out as, I am not yet computer literate but I love being here. I am also with theonetruth as I am a simple seeker of the truth as are all of you so if there are trolls or shills on board maybe they will come to appreciate the truth. Discernment is key not fear. there is no greater illusion than fear, no greater wrong than to prepare to defend yourself, no greater misfortune than having an enemy.Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe. that my twopence worth. gardener 2 x

[TigaHawk]

I think no matter where you go, there will always be people with ill intent that work their way into closed forum's for insidious reasons.

In regards to checking people, something that is done in some gaming community's is an online "screen" so to speak. You take the persons email address, and put it into Google.

From there you will find a lot, any site that your email is publicly listed (a lot of forums, you'd be surprised) you will see.

Take me... for example... you've already found out a bit of personal stuff.

https://www.google.com.au/?gfe_rd=cr...il.com&start=0

Still a lot of time and effort to do that for each person, and still people will always get through it.

The best defense is always good modding.

[panopticon]

There were a number of threads here a few years ago on disinformation/COINTELPRO/etc that were all conflated by an ex-member into a single post.

That thread is titled: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)

I suggest new members (and old if you need a refresher) have a read of that post.

-- Pan

[Violet]

Posted by Tesseract (here)
What would be the effect, at large, of a government shill posting on Avalon? Seems to me the consequences would be very minor. Not saying they don't want to listen in and see what material is being posted here, just not sure the effort to shill would be worth it for them.

Was thinking along the same lines there, Tesseract. There are fora on the net where you can not just feel the presence of such types, you can actually point them out almost one by one.

Experience tells me that there are better targets for this practice than PA, (though I don't doubt attempts are made). One is a much larger audience and second, an environment where the average member would be oblivious to the existence as well as the possibility of such types being present on the forum. And that would make for the best work place and best achievements. "Best" of course being a relative concept here.

[S-L]

Posted by panopticon (here)
There were a number of threads here a few years ago on disinformation/COINTELPRO/etc that were all conflated by an ex-member into a single post.

That thread is titled: The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)

I suggest new members (and old if you need a refresher) have a read of that post.

-- Pan

Completely agree with this. Which techniques do you find most prevalent on this forum?

[Shezbeth]

Posted by S-L (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)

Completely agree with this. Which techniques do you find most prevalent on this forum?

While this question was not directed at me, I have a moment and a want to respond. ^_^

That thread/OP is pretty extensive and exhaustive, but I'll see what I can do.

Techniques:
There are some instances of forum sliding, though much of the efforts of mods have mediated this potential through the 'what's new' section posted on the front-page. Topic dilution can also be observed, but this is largely mediated by active and involved members/OPs hitting the button and directing the topic back to their origins. If anything, I imagine that Information Gathering would the most prevalent technique applied to Project Avalon, since it doesn't involve an agent/operator exposing themselves.

25 Rules:
This one is tricky, because these are behaviors that can be seen in honest and participating members without nefarious or disinfo intentions. I have personally witnessed other members operating in such manners, and I can be seen operating in such manners. One may conclude that I or others are disinfo agents - and they are entitled to their opinion - but this would only breed dissent and separation. Still, the rules I see most frequently applied are: 5-9, 13-15, and 17-20. Again to reiterate; often times these are legitimate posts and/or participation with no ill or diversionary intent behind them, and one should not immediately conclude 'disinfo' if another is seen to act in a particular manner that is consistent. Moreover, the mods are very effective at monitoring the forum and with user participation (the '!' report button next to the 'thanks' button) their efficacy is exponentially greater.

8 Traits:
Again, this is tricky because these are sometimes habits of legitimate posters and participants. Lately I could say I have observed the "Time Constraint" aspect applied, but again this could equally be said to be one I do, since I like to spend my off hours lurking and reading with the 'Spy' feature enabled, and if a topic is of interest to me I won't hesitate to frequent it. Also the "Artificial Emotions" is one which to a large degree I would argue is just good practice; certainly not feigning emotion but maintaining a degree of emotional detachment seems quite sound and pragmatic. "Inconsistent" does happen from time to time, but Avalon is not a 'cookie cutter' type of assembly; for example I am an industrial laborer, yet my diction level is relatively off the charts (if I may be so bold as to say ^_^).

I neither claim nor intend that this response be exhaustive or fully comprehensive, and there are a great deal of grey areas that can be and are observable. What is your experience, are there techniques, rules, aspects, etc. that you have observed?

[Carmody]

If I go off topic, and gallop in all directions at the same time, please understand that my standing record is speaking to eight different people at the same time on eight different subjects. I was really on the ball and wired that particular day....

Going off topic means nothing to me - as a matter of fact, it is part of the whole point, to me. Finding the original thread and coming back to it, is just a normal romp. Part of breathing, IMO and IME.

PA has some interesting people, here.

[Shezbeth]

The crux of my response is and was thus:

I was on a similar bent (line of thinking) some months ago, and while I appreciate the sentiment and beneficience behind it I realize that I was operating in err. While a general adherence to codes of conduct, guidelines, etc. is advisable one cannot be too rigorous or demanding in their implementation. To do otherwise would result in totalitarianism (generally if not literally) and would not allow more divergent individuals to progress into less divergent. To be honest, my experience with PA has taught that the forum is more for the newer members than the older. The reason I say this is because regardless of the personal experience with/in/from the forum, there develops an inherent experience and expansion the longer one participates. While governmental, controller, and hierarchical shenanigens are regularly and often besmirched, that is relatively an aside to the overall purpose of the forum. In a very literal and lasting sense, the effect of participation is maturity. Individual results may vary, but by and large the participants seem to fluorish in a manner largely (but not exclusively) unavailable elsewhere, and while there may be individual misgivings the general mass tends to benefit from the practices and procedures.

Simplified, I really doubt that various agencies care too much to dillute, disinform, or obstruct PA. For one, the topics discussed here are so out-there that most plebians woudn't care anyway. For two, there is a small enough population that there would be no overall benefit to interference (in observance of resource and man-hour management) and for three it utilizes easily compromisable forum-software; if PA were a problem, members would know it because it would be inaccessable.

As such, the newer members tend to have the most to 'lose' and the least to 'gain' from difficulty and obstruction in and around the forum. Respectively, I would suggest that increasingly veteran members (in a matter of respect and reciprocation) have an increasing responsibility to monitor and mediate the possibility of interference.

Pardon me for saying, but this post has been brewing for a while and waiting for the opportunity to fluorish.

[Referee]

There are several trolls on this forum. Use discernment. A good indicator is a member with repeated history of being the first 2 or 3 to post with an alternate or derailing thought on controversial new threads.

Kind Regards,

The Ref.

[panopticon]

Periodically this topic comes up at Avalon and there are always those who say:

"There is no need to be concerned, Avalon is too small for anyone to bother with".

My responses before Snowden & the Utah NSA Data Centre were along these lines:

Posted by panopticon (here)
There is a long history of infiltration by agents of the State in groups that are classified by the State (and in the present period it could equally be corporate operatives) as being worthy of "watching".

In Australia this got to such a ridiculous level in late 1980/early 1990's Victoria and then re-emerged in the late 90's that the Police were watching church groups (nasty sorts them Grandmothers in Knitting Circles) and that radical left wing group the Council of Single Mothers. To say that infiltration does not occur shows a lack of understanding of state coercive practices and surveillance as a form of intimidation. Also in the present period there is not just the State to be concerned about but also the various corporations, lobby groups/think tanks (to name just a few) that feel the need to control the way in which various discursive processes are constructed.

This is not paranoia, it is simply a fact.

To quote the Activist Handbook (which is funded in part by the Victorian Law Foundation):

Assume that there is surveillance of some type going on if you are an activist. Police have always gathered information by secret means and with advanced technology it is far easier.
Some surveillance of protests is obvious. Members of the police camera unit will stand aside from the action and continually video everything that happens.
Activists should also be aware that police special branches (or the Protective Security Intelligence Group in Victoria) and ASIO (Australian Security Intelligence Organisation) collect information including videos of individuals and groups, mostly from the left, trade unions, human rights campaigners and ethnic communities. Australia and Victoria have a long history of political surveillance and infiltration by police.

This is not only done at demonstrations: it includes monitoring of websites, email lists, social media, meetings, phone taps and physical surveillance outside homes or offices.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

For further information on this:
http://www.activistrights.org.au/han...ch01s08s02.php
http://www.ombudsman.vic.gov.au/resources/documents/Allegations_raised_concerning_the_activities_of_the_Operations_Intelligence_Unit_-_interim_rep.pdf
http://www.ombudsman.vic.gov.au/resources/documents/Allegations_raised_concerning_the_activities_of_the_Operations_Intelligence_Unit_-_final_report.pdf
http://www.activistrights.org.au/handbook/ch01s08.php
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/...217-1tegl.html
http://www.theage.com.au/national/po...1015-51k0.html
http://www.theage.com.au/national/in...1015-51k2.html
http://www.csmc.org.au/
http://www.victorialawfoundation.org.au

After Snowden's "revelations", which I personally already assumed were operational norms, I find it hard to believe that anyone can now say that they have not been surveilled.

Never forgive. Never forget.



-- Pan

[Carmody]

Avalon's musings travel far.

Since it tends to not be knocked out by the kind of threads that devolve into trading punches, it stands as one of the few -if only- places (with readership) where discourse actually takes place on these difficult and complex subjects.

It is in the discourse where things actually happen, and for things to change, that discourse must take place.

In the rest of the world....after the punches are thrown and the two or more sides crawl into their hidey-holes (resplendent with their absorbed fasco-corporate comfort blankets and forms of mirroring) to lick their wounds and curse the other ignorant person (which is the divisive game that is played with the public) their mind can sometimes wander. And perchance to wander toward clarity.

When they seek out discourse, or have even a whiff of it, it must take place in a forum or location that is free of noise. Free of the noise that shuts down actual thought and actual discourse.

This is why most people speak of a single video, a single person or a single book...that finally announced to them, their opening into a new vista. A vista of a change, and a motion toward a new clarity, in themselves.

Those particular items, whatever they may be, are clear of noise (singular and calm), so the crystalline moments of clarity can get in and get past any form of emotions that derail thought. For indeed the emotions are designed to derail thought. Literally.

So, to prevent discourse and thought, and rumination, and motion toward truth erupting in humans, discourse is always infiltrated and disrupted. Disrupted into simple contrary position argument. Anything at all, that breaks thought from occurring and maintains the original cover story.

That is what the human form 'is', in the body and emotions... things which are DESIGNED to preempt thought. Emotions, feelings, and sensations first --thought later (thoughts free of tainted origins require those three things to be cleared--first) . The vast majority of people, don't even know what they ~ARE~. They don't know how their internal systems operate and they don't know what they are. Not a freaking clue.

The favorite tool is fear (being 'the' primary-reactive), and then, when the being is calm.... obfuscated reason, built on old cover stories and expected outcomes built on old cover stories. To engage the emotional origin of thought in old comforts of known things. People want change, people love change...except for the 'change' part.

What they desire (desire being tied to the body, a real problem in thought origins)... is things to be bigger and bolder, but the same. That way, they can change, but never change. Change into expected comfortable outcomes, so they don't get upset or confused.

The human mind is about 88%-85% automatic in origins of thought and the rest (the tiny conscious bit) emerges from the hindbrain and emotional core. it does not originate in the frontal lobes in the form of logic.

Thought stands on the places it originates from (in the electrochemical flow of formation), and that is hindbrain reptilian emotional and core reactionary (learned-instinctive-rote) systems.

Hypnotism works and most people, +99.99%.... spend nearly 90% of their day in an automatic functional state that is outside of conscious and logical thought formation and action.

Humans naturally have a divided mind. But it can be defeated, to some degree, but most never will, as their will to do so emerges from the side of their mind that forms the thoughts, and they get lost on the way to understanding this, over,and over, and over, and over......

So, infiltrating the given discussion, and derailing it, is, for the most part, child's play. It is done every day. Newspapers and media would not work, if this was not true.

When one has a closed forum, regarding selective membership and posting... but it is still visible to the public, this creates the potential for actual discourse on difficult subjects to emerge. Discourse that you won't see anywhere else.

This is why at any given time, we have maybe 150-200 people who are members..on-line..and approx 10x (1700-2000+) that of people -- who are watching.

Watching and absorbing -- real discourse.

And that discourse travels, it has more effect, more of a domino effect.. than one generally believes.