This evening in Israel

[Violet]

No judgment is to be passed on by me over you, Tesseract. Who am I?

This is a political hot potato that no one wishes to hold. You are one of the few that speaks out a direct stance, regardless of political correctness, as you also stated.
I am honest enough to admit: I don't know a solution of which I am confident it will benefit all involved. You may say, who brought zionism there, who's fault is all this in the first place, but the reality is that now you have a situation and now you have to deal with people.

When the Palestinian land robbed from its people, is returned to the owners, arises the question of what will be the faith of the jews. There lies the problem because again a parallel pops up with German history and there lies the sensitivity that makes people rather not bring up this case...

[animovado]

Peace prevails
when we forgive
our long-held
dream of ill will.

Freedom is a landscape
without the encircling walls
of guilt.

[Tesseract]

Israel blowing up a residential building:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=waSPsI9-ge8

Probably using a US made JDAM.

[Tesseract]

Posted by Violet (here)
No judgment is to be passed on by me over you, Tesseract. Who am I?

This is a political hot potato that no one wishes to hold. You are one of the few that speaks out a direct stance, regardless of political correctness, as you also stated.
I am honest enough to admit: I don't know a solution of which I am confident it will benefit all involved. You may say, who brought zionism there, who's fault is all this in the first place, but the reality is that now you have a situation and now you have to deal with people.

When the Palestinian land robbed from its people, is returned to the owners, arises the question of what will be the faith of the jews. There lies the problem because again a parallel pops up with German history and there lies the sensitivity that makes people rather not bring up this case...

Yes, that is certainly a good question. One might look back to Alsace [Lorraine] in Europe - maybe you know more about it than I do. It was annexed by Germany in the 1870s, and was subjected to a program of changing the ethnic landscape by settling more and more German families into the region. After WWI the Germans lost control - and, quite rightly, all the families who had settled in the area were ordered out. Likewise, Jewish colonialists should simply return to their home countries. Those who have roots to the region of course have every right to stay. The idea that Palestinians wan't to slaughter all Jews in the region is, of course, a myth.

[Valle]

"They are the ones behind for example Hitler (Orion=Ari-an)"

I got association to (but I have no clue..):
Khaz-aria and Ashke-nazi (maybe from from Akhen-aten, - monotheistic sun worship?)

[Dorjezigzag]

A day before Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khudair was kidnapped and burned alive allegedly by six Israeli Jewish youths, Israeli lawmaker Ayelet Shaked published on Facebook a call for genocide of the Palestinians.



It is a call for genocide because it declares that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and justifies its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.”

It is a call for genocide because it calls for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”

Her post was shared more than one thousand times and received almost five thousand “Likes.”

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...facebook-likes

This is interesting as well. of course not all Israelis are like this, but people need to know this is going on.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff3IA

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...t-want-you-see

[avid]

Totally disgusting - please don't promote these vile people (however beguiling) here. The poor Palestinians have suffered so much, and yet an alien nation is forced upon them, and regularly poisons/murders and commits atrocities and the West fund IsreaHELL, and we sit and watch the biased MSM news, it's horrendous. How we can watch and not have any conscience - or do something to stop this - is unconscionable. The Zionists deffo have control in the West, and via all the banks. What ploys are around the corner of 'them' allowing' the spread of Islam globally? Playing one side off against another for years, and using the one side to annihilate their questionners.... Used for many years, again and again, the banksters are 'playing' again. Wars mean avoidance of the fact that their stranglehold on money is waning. Create diversions. Sickeningly true, and call them on this! Don't join the forces, don't buy their vile produce - walk away and IGNORE!!!

[nenosema]

in essence, to forget the nightmare of ill will, each of us must create peace in our hearts
it is us the victim
it is us the perpetrator

[nenosema]

[Tesseract]

nenosema, please delete those images from your posts.

[Polyamine]

Posted by Tesseract (here)
The morally righteous thing to do regarding this conflict is to support the side of the Palestinians. It's not complicated, get off the fence and support the Palestinians. Personally, I hope that the F-16s dropping the bombs get shot down and the destroyers off the coast plough into a mine field. And to that end I wish all players in the Palestinian resistance every success, and I will not shy from making blatant, unqualified, attacks on Zionism and those who support it.

It was the Palestinians that started this by killing the 3 teenagers. The Israelis just want to survive and they feel the best way to ensure their survival is to go on the offensive. I can't say that is the right thing to do, but I dang sure can't say its the wrong thing to do. I have seen this, if the Palestinians don't attempt to kill or harm the Israelis, the Israelis don't bomb the Palestinians. I have seen the Palestinians indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel for no apparent reason other than to kill Israelis.

[Tesseract]

Posted by Polyamine (here)

Posted by Tesseract (here)
The morally righteous thing to do regarding this conflict is to support the side of the Palestinians. It's not complicated, get off the fence and support the Palestinians. Personally, I hope that the F-16s dropping the bombs get shot down and the destroyers off the coast plough into a mine field. And to that end I wish all players in the Palestinian resistance every success, and I will not shy from making blatant, unqualified, attacks on Zionism and those who support it.

It was the Palestinians that started this by killing the 3 teenagers. The Israelis just want to survive and they feel the best way to ensure their survival is to go on the offensive. I can't say that is the right thing to do, but I dang sure can't say its the wrong thing to do. I have seen this, if the Palestinians don't attempt to kill or harm the Israelis, the Israelis don't bomb the Palestinians. I have seen the Palestinians indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel for no apparent reason other than to kill Israelis.

Every sentence you wrote is ridiculous, am I talking to a child (that is a serious question)? Even if you only want to look at recent times, the number of Palestinian children (and adults) killed by Israel is far higher than the other way around - you are just picking a single incident to try and justify mass murder. And then you have the Nakba, if you want to go a little further back in time.

You can't say that this is the wrong thing to do? Thousands of bombs dropped, 160 people dead and rising, thousands wounded, hundreds of buildings destroyed - all to punish a people who simply dare to resist being oppressed, murdered, starved and dispossessed? You can rationalise punitive genocide based on the murder of three people, yet at the same time you can't understand why rockets are being fired in the other direction? Someone has you very well trained, or you are simply a moron.

[loungelizard]

Tesseract - I completely understand the anger and frustration you feel but you are in danger of being blinded by these emotions. This terrible situation is far more complex than you are, for some reason, depicting. The passion and pain you feel are, unfortunately, going to prevent any weighty discussion on this thread as seen by your response to those who voice opinions contrary to your own. By presenting such a one-sided perspective, you are stirring up the very divisions that perpetuate hatred in this world: righteous anger is one of the most powerful of human emotions.

@Dorjezigzag: I can't pretend to understand the reason why you posted the words of the extremist Shaked on this thread, other than to elicit a vitriolic, knee-jerk response. Both sides in any conflict can use the words of fanatical zealots in an attempt to prove a point - to what end? Would it be helpful if I responded by wheeling out a few choice statements by extremists on the "other side"? Where do we go from such actions?

Inflammatory images such as the OP only serve to provoke other inflammatory images: is anyone going to post the photo of people showing a 3 fingered salute in celebration of the three Israeli teens kidnapped and murdered on June 12th? Where do we go from such actions?

[Polyamine]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Tesseract - I completely understand the anger and frustration you feel but you are in danger of being blinded by these emotions. This terrible situation is far more complex than you are, for some reason, depicting. The passion and pain you feel are, unfortunately, going to prevent any weighty discussion on this thread as seen by your response to those who voice opinions contrary to your own. By presenting such a one-sided perspective, you are stirring up the very divisions that perpetuate hatred in this world: righteous anger is one of the most powerful of human emotions.

@Dorjezigzag: I can't pretend to understand the reason why you posted the words of the extremist Shaked on this thread, other than to elicit a vitriolic, knee-jerk response. Both sides in any conflict can use the words of fanatical zealots in an attempt to prove a point - to what end? Would it be helpful if I responded by wheeling out a few choice statements by extremists on the "other side"? Where do we go from such actions?

Inflammatory images such as the OP only serve to provoke other inflammatory images: is anyone going to post the photo of people showing a 3 fingered salute in celebration of the three Israeli teens kidnapped and murdered on June 12th? Where do we go from such actions?

Good post.

Tesseract, you speak of the Israelis committing genocide. They only bomb what they think are military targets or where the rocket launch originated. If they wanted to commit genocide against the Palestinians, there would be no Palestinians in Palestine. Israel has nuclear weapons.

I don't mind you verbally assaulting me or my opinion. Our views are different and yet I don't verbally assault you or your character. Why is that? Perhaps I am rational about the situation and realize that attempting to belittle someone on a message board is of little use. It certainly would not change anyone's opinion. Would you like to apologize for your insults?

[Observer1964]

Hmm... Israel is Palestine...
Israel did not exsist until 1948, and was forced upon the Palestinians land.

I dont see how anybody rational ( not influenced by emotion ) cant understand the position of the Palestinians.



What if Russia and China start helping the native americans to reconcer the USA and all americans are forced into California?

And if u do a little research on the history of the jewish people you'll find that Jew is short for Judean, a semite group with the hebrew religion from an area called Judea, most of the Zionist and right-oriented Israeli decent from the Khazars not even semite in origin.

I dont hate Israelis but i do hate injustice.

I've seen 2 videos of palestinian youngsters being shot for no reason, and a palestinian burned alive, 3 israeli youngsters killed, and in revenge for that a shelling of non-involved ppl who may have understandable sympathy for the killing of the 3 israeli youngsters.

But t me this is a play-off... setting ppl against each other ..

when two dogs fight for a bone a third runs away with it.

[loungelizard]

Observer, you are exhibiting clear features of righteous anger. I can recognise and empathise, cos I have exactly the same impulses

There is obviously is a place for the drive to "put things right" but the problem is that righteousness entails putting things right the way we think they should be put right - a belief that our standards are the "right" standards, even though our conclusions may be based on false assumptions. If we react based upon such strength of feeling, our actions will be tainted, and we will end up unintentionally causing more harm.

We have to learn that such a reaction is destructive - it creates more problems that it will ever solve. It destroys all chance of successful coexistence, as compromise is not an option.

As David Brin wrote, "…the human penchant for self righteous indignation underlies the obstinate dogmatism which is preventing solutions to myriad world problems."

An angry person has no awareness of the fact that there could be a bias in their viewpoint. It's only when we accept the futility of anger that we can control it.

Can you not see that for every example you cite here of injustices carried out by the Israelis, someone else could produce a dozen examples of, for example, blind hatred of Jews being generated in the Arab media? Such an approach is never ending - a downward cycle of partisan hatred that is being perpetuated all over this planet.

I could produce for you a list of scores of heartbreaking injustices going on at this very moment, as a result of conflicts throughout the world which will cause you to have an identical feeling of righteous anger. Injustices have been going on in the world for centuries. That doesn't make them right, but it does mean that we have to find another way to deal with them.

As I once read somewhere, "It's time to step off our high horses and into the ****"…

PS It's not possible to check the veracity of your statement "most of the Zionist and right-oriented Israeli decent from the Khazars" without extensive DNA testing of the individuals to whom you refer (can't see that happening!), but I assume you're basing this assertion on the Khazar hypothesis put forward in Koestler's work and the writing of Eran Elhaik. This is isn't the place to get into a deep discussion on this topic, but as a result of genetic research, the work of both of these authors has been widely discredited

[Observer1964]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Observer, you are exhibiting clear features of righteous anger. I can recognise and empathise, cos I have exactly the same impulses

Well I am not as angry as I may sound, I am not English speaking so my choice of words might be limited, and I know the meaning of the words but not always how it is weighed. My 'anger' is founded mostly in the fate of the children, they cant help being born on a side of a conflict, the religions that fuel these conflicts are in my view obslolete, twisted truth from long ago.

There is obviously is a place for the drive to "put things right" but the problem is that righteousness entails putting things right the way we think they should be put right - a belief that our standards are the "right" standards, even though our conclusions may be based on false assumptions. If we react based upon such strength of feeling, our actions will be tainted, and we will end up unintentionally causing more harm.

We have to learn that such a reaction is destructive - it creates more problems that it will ever solve. It destroys all chance of successful coexistence, as compromise is not an option.

As David Brin wrote, "…the human penchant for self righteous indignation underlies the obstinate dogmatism which is preventing solutions to myriad world problems."

An angry person has no awareness of the fact that there could be a bias in their viewpoint. It's only when we accept the futility of anger that we can control it.

Can you not see that for every example you cite here of injustices carried out by the Israelis, someone else could produce a dozen examples of, for example, blind hatred of Jews being generated in the Arab media? Such an approach is never ending - a downward cycle of partisan hatred that is being perpetuated all over this planet.

I could produce for you a list of scores of heartbreaking injustices going on at this very moment, as a result of conflicts throughout the world which will cause you to have an identical feeling of righteous anger. Injustices have been going on in the world for centuries. That doesn't make them right, but it does mean that we have to find another way to deal with them.

As I once read somewhere, "It's time to step off our high horses and into the ****"…

PS It's not possible to check the veracity of your statement "most of the Zionist and right-oriented Israeli decent from the Khazars" without extensive DNA testing of the individuals to whom you refer (can't see that happening!), but I assume you're basing this assertion on the Khazar hypothesis put forward in Koestler's work and the writing of Eran Elhaik. This is isn't the place to get into a deep discussion on this topic, but as a result of genetic research, the work of both of these authors has been widely discredited

Again, I am not all that angry anymore, I considder myself as a reincarnating Soul experiencing life, observing and participating in this holografic frequency channel we call our reality, and i see it as a school for the soul in wich we have to learn by experiencing all possibilities of life.

But I do feel that my emotions about the injustice towards the children is justified as observing participator in this drama.

Again I dont hate any group of ppl, I understand their stance is due to upbringing, religion, experiencing fear, seeking security etc...

I just hope I experienced enough mysery that in my next life I can live in a more socially stable society that has left its religious dogma's and doctrines behind them and base their collective conviction on truthfull scientific research, free of manipulation by power-holding institutions as countries, religions, ethnic groups etc... hopefully by accessing this thing called the Akasha-records also have a truthfull account of the real history, So we know where we come from, know where we are, and understand where we are going to as evolutional goal.

[heyokah]

They only bomb what they think are military targets or where the rocket launch originated. If they wanted to commit genocide against the Palestinians, there would be no Palestinians in Palestine.

Conversations with Gaza - July 11 2014 - Max Igan
Published on Jul 11, 2014

Operation "Defensive Edge" is a LIE. It is not defense, it is terrorism.
Israel is targeting civilians only, bombing mosks, houses, rescue teams, news teams, schools, special needs schools, hospitals, and even cemeteries.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6J5kMGoC3Ek

[Pam]

Posted by Libico (here)

Posted by Tesseract (here)

Posted by Libico (here)

I can understand your frustration and anger towards the overkill (and pointless) Israeli response - many of us here are feeling the same, but a post like this seems designed to further fan the flames on anger and resentment.

There is not enough anger and resentment, that is the problem.

I disagree with you here - I think the base emotion that the average citizen feels regarding the other side is anger and resentment... years and years of it that has built up. The problem is that it is being directed towards the generalized religion/nationality instead of the leadership. I can't comment on what a Palestinian in Gaza or West Bank is exposed to as far as media and societal norms, but in Israel it is literally pushed down our throats how we are the victims and Arabs will kill us if we ever let our guard down. Military successes are glorified to instill patriotism and we are never really presented with the humanity of the other side, as everything is just propaganda from anti-Semites. Our little interaction with Palestinians comes during army service when we are taught to look at them with suspicion and treat them like ****. Israeli victims are bombarded on TV to give us emotional attachment to their suffering, and Palestinian victims are given a short blurb or a dry statistic - rarely will you see the human side unless it is a positive thing (how we treated them in a hospital, or helped them in some other way - always with a slant to keep us as the good guys). I'm generalizing here, but that is what you see on TV news, and certainly what we've seen here over the past week.

All this does is further reinforce the emotional response of hatred and anger towards the other side - do you know how many seemingly intelligent people are quick to say "we need to go in and wipe them all out" or "we should bomb them to destroy everything there to show them - they don't understand anything else", or something along those lines. These aren't fanatical people and if you probe their rationale I find that the majority quickly backtrack on what they said, but it's the default instinctive response to damn an entire population without any form of sympathy or empathy as to what life may be like for them - it's what we've been taught.

So my response to your initial post was not trying to question your anger or resentment, but to hopefully show you that you directing your anger to Israelis in general isn't correct. Building awareness of the real issues won't be done by spouting hatred towards Israelis/Palestinians as it will just be dismissed outright and get people further entrenched in their positions.

What you are saying is so familiar. In the US, the citizens are subjected to exactly the same propaganda. We are the good guys fighting terrorism for the world with our allied forces. MSM never bothers us with the atrocities that are brought on by the US. So if you believe the MSM you can feel that whatever damage we do to others is the price for "freedom" from the boogyman which is currently terrorists.

[Tesseract]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
Tesseract - I completely understand the anger and frustration you feel but you are in danger of being blinded by these emotions. This terrible situation is far more complex than you are, for some reason, depicting. The passion and pain you feel are, unfortunately, going to prevent any weighty discussion on this thread as seen by your response to those who voice opinions contrary to your own. By presenting such a one-sided perspective, you are stirring up the very divisions that perpetuate hatred in this world: righteous anger is one of the most powerful of human emotions.

Dear Loungelizard, I assure you that I am not being blinded by anything, as a matter of fact my eyes and my mind are wide open. And, incidentally, there has been far more discussion on this thread than most threads that I start. I have written several long, constructed, academic almost, posts here on Avalon that really get no kind of response. If someone here makes a post that is an apology for Zionism or the actions of Israel – then I will use that as a platform to make further attacks against Zionism and those who support it. It seems like a lot of people on this thread wish that I would stop doing that. When you say ‘contrary to your own’ it kind of makes the imputation that some of what I am writing in this thread is ego-driven, I don’t know whether you meant it that way or not – but for the record it certainly is not.

This anger of mine that you speak of is not something that has just flashed up in response to media coverage of the latest bombing of Gaza – rather I am a long time supporter of Palestine and my views at this point are no different than they have been for many years. Nothing I am writing here is hasty, irrational or blinded. Although, I do know that it is a shock to many people to hear unfettered and unqualified attacks against Israel, the IDF and Zionism. It is even more of a shock to hear praise of groups like Hezbollah. It’s not quite what they are used to, they are used to the moderated approach, which is in farcical ignorance of the situation on the ground. There is a backlash that you get from this stance – some of which you have seen on this thread, some of which you haven’t (because on the whole the people on this forum are very reasonable) – but anytime you take a firm stand that is what will happen.

And, I have to ask this. Somewhere, right now, there is an F-16 flying over Israel/Palestine with a payload of JDAM guided bombs and a mission to drop them on a target in Gaza. At the same time, warships off the coast are manoeuvring to line up new targets for shelling. In my opinion, these planes and ships should be attacked and destroyed, for what they are planning to do is completely illegitimate, and I would support any attempt by the resistance forces to do so. Apparently some of you feel that this is a little extreme. I would like to hear from anyone who disagrees with my stance here – the invitation is given for anyone to expound on why this would be the wrong thing to do. I’ll read the responses and respond as I see fit.


And another thing, it is better to be divided than to be united (or apathetic) in wrongdoing. Yes, there is a division that I want to see – I want to see as many people firmly and unambiguously opposing Israel as possible. Israel has too much support, much of it tacit. Israel gets away with its crimes because so many moderators wrongly posit that Israel is a legitimate state that should defend itself; and moderators who, when there is a condemnation of violence, wrongly condemn the Palestinian resistance factions with equal measure - when it is these resistance factions that (as the UN recognises) have the right to resistance.

Besides, we are now seeing Hamas and Hezbollah co-ordinating with each other. This is in addition with Fatah/Hamas reconciliation which is one of the things that has outraged and scared Israeli politicians so much. This is exactly what should be happening – people, groups and countries with quite different backgrounds coming together to put up a front against Israel.

You accuse me of providing a one-sided perspective. I have no support for the Zionists. None. I’m not going to present the reasons for what they are doing, for to do so would be to act as if they had some kind of legitimacy. Really, why should I do that? Why should I detail the Zionist perspective? Hasbara? From me?