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Thread: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    There are also pilots' testimonies that Su-25 go well beyond their operating specs/margins.
    This may be worth reading:
    Quote from the article:
    “I personally flew, and not once, at an altitude of 12,000 meters...,” he said. “My colleagues have risen to an altitude of 14,000 meters. The altitude of 10,500 was officially authorized during operations in Afghanistan. Therefore the plane, even at an altitude of 12,000 meters, has the capability to maneuver comfortably, its aerodynamic characteristics enable it to do so.”

    Seems like outright lies from the pilots in that article as they contradict the "aircraft designer" Vladimir Babak. Also how can a unpressurized SU-25 operate at 14,000 metres that is in the old money 46,000 feet, double it design ceiling?

    Cabin pressurization is requiried above 12,500 feet.

    Quote:
    "Pressurization becomes increasingly necessary at altitudes above 12,500 feet (3,800 m) to 14,000 feet (4,300 m) above sea level to protect crew and passengers from the risk of a number of physiological problems caused by the low outside air pressure above that altitude."

    Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization

    I think I'll take Vladimir Babak testimony thank you. The pilots may have been suffering from Hypoxia when they made that statment.
    Last edited by BMJ; 16th March 2017 at 01:38.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Quote Posted by BMJ (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    There are also pilots' testimonies that Su-25 go well beyond their operating specs/margins.
    This may be worth reading:
    Quote from the article:
    “I personally flew, and not once, at an altitude of 12,000 meters...,” he said. “My colleagues have risen to an altitude of 14,000 meters. The altitude of 10,500 was officially authorized during operations in Afghanistan. Therefore the plane, even at an altitude of 12,000 meters, has the capability to maneuver comfortably, its aerodynamic characteristics enable it to do so.”

    Seems like outright lies from the pilots in that article as they contradict the "aircraft designer" Vladimir Babak. Also how can a unpressurized SU-25 operate at 14,000 metres that is in the old money 46,000 feet, double it design ceiling?

    Cabin pressurization is requiried above 12,500 feet.

    Quote:
    "Pressurization becomes increasingly necessary at altitudes above 12,500 feet (3,800 m) to 14,000 feet (4,300 m) above sea level to protect crew and passengers from the risk of a number of physiological problems caused by the low outside air pressure above that altitude."

    Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization

    I think I'll take Vladimir Babak testimony thank you. The pilots may have been suffering from Hypoxia when they made that statment.
    Given the quoted figures the first thing to wonder is was metres written accidentally.

    BMJ, can a pilot use oxygen masks for a limited period to fly above ceilings? I mean, will the plane perform fine and performance ceiling concerns are primarily about operator health?

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    [...]
    Given the quoted figures the first thing to wonder is was metres written accidentally.
    [...]
    The Feet/Metres glitch is most probably due to a "Giggle-Translate" artifact, one which I ran into a lot - both ways - with the El Hierro thread.
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Oxygen? Without actually knowing, I am sure that all modern military attack and fighter aircraft have supplemental oxygen available. So oxygen for the SU-25 pilot is not likely a factor to consider when speculating what happened with MH17.

    If memory serves me accurately, supplemental oxygen is required by regulation to be in use by civilian pilots when flying at 12,000 feet and above.

    Service ceiling? My experience as a civilian pilot flying single engine Cessna aircraft was that it took an incredibly long time to reach the ceiling specified by the manufacturer. I was never successful when I tried. Flight time is expensive. Military aircraft might be different. But I suspect the numbers are specified for ideal conditions by people who want to sell airplanes.

    It would be interesting to know the practical ceiling of whatever weapon may been used.
    Last edited by Ron Mauer Sr; 14th March 2017 at 15:17.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Quote Posted by Ron Mauer Sr (here)
    Oxygen? Without actually knowing, I am sure that all modern military attack and fighter aircraft have supplemental oxygen available. So oxygen for the SU-25 pilot is not likely a factor to consider when speculating what happened with MH17.

    If memory serves me accurately, supplemental oxygen is required by regulation to be in use by civilian pilots when flying at 12,000 feet and above.

    Service ceiling? My experience as a civilian pilot flying single engine Cessna aircraft was that it took an incredibly long time to reach the ceiling specified by the manufacturer. I was never successful when I tried. Flight time is expensive. Military aircraft might be different. But I suspect the numbers are specified for ideal conditions by people who want to sell airplanes.

    It would be interesting to know the practical ceiling of whatever weapon may been used.
    Pratical ceiling between 50,000 to 72,000 feet. see post #1105.

    Hi Ron Mauer Sr,
    Thank you for your response.
    Your to modest I remember you commenting on the F-4 on another thread. I should have asked how you were involved with the aircraft at the time as you would be more knowledgeable than me on this topic. I have put my 2 cents worth forward but I think we could all benefit from your expertise on this topic.

    Link: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1048136

    As I am only an armchair expert on this topic please feel to correct me if I am wrong I have no issue in being proven wrong.

    Witness statement from post #1104
    M: How did the sky look? Was it cloudy or sunny? How was the weather?
    L: It was very sunny and a bit cloudy. Weakly cloudy, I would say 4 [out of 10] for clouds. Anyway, it is all subjective, but visibility was perfect. I saw the silhouette of this rook (fighter jet) with my monoculars as I can see my own fingers. And when it accelerated, I heard the roar of turbines and it sharply went up. After some time I heard 3 claps: bah-bah—bah (the last one followed after some time).


    With this witness I have a few issues post #1104:
    - He was tracking the SU-25's with a monocular, really, I find that hard to believe. Why?
    * Because if go on youtube and watch airshow footage, in which the aircraft perform in tight bit of airspace directly over the airfield, alot of the footage proves they even have a hard time tracking the aircraft on camera in a controlled senario.
    * It was a cloudy day and the SU-25's would be camouflaged making it even more difficult for anyone to see them.
    * I have been on the ground for example when a Harrier jump jet was overhead on a cloudy day and down low I heard the thing because it makes a hell of a noise but only saw a brief glimpse of it.

    - He states also that the SU-25 "And when it accelerated, I heard the roar of turbines and it sharply went up". If the SU-25 pilots knew there were the BUK-M1 batteries in the area the last thing you would want to do is to go make themselves into a target, regardless if it is an exercise or not. I would imagine they would make their bombing run and stay low as much as possible banking left or right to move away from the area.

    - He also states "After some time I heard 3 claps: bah-bah—bah". Which I take is the launch of the BUK-M1 missile battery supposedly targeting the SU-25's. After sometime, I don't know how long that is but assume it is say 3 minutes. That does not add up if the SU-25 maximum rate of climb is 11,400 feet per minute, with no external ordance, it would take it the SU-25 4.4 minutes to get to 50,000 feet, which is the minimum effective height of the BUK-M1. Coupled with the fact that the maximum height the SU-25 can obtain is 23,000 feet. The SU-25 would never come in effective range of the BUK-M1 missile.

    Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25

    I think the witness statement is flawed. These statements that have been put forward have more holes than swiss cheese.
    Last edited by BMJ; 16th March 2017 at 01:46.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    Quote Posted by BMJ (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    There are also pilots' testimonies that Su-25 go well beyond their operating specs/margins.
    This may be worth reading:
    Quote from the article:
    “I personally flew, and not once, at an altitude of 12,000 meters...,” he said. “My colleagues have risen to an altitude of 14,000 meters. The altitude of 10,500 was officially authorized during operations in Afghanistan. Therefore the plane, even at an altitude of 12,000 meters, has the capability to maneuver comfortably, its aerodynamic characteristics enable it to do so.”

    Seems like outright lies from the pilots in that article as they contradict the "aircraft designer" Vladimir Babak. Also how can a unpressurized SU-25 operate at 14,000 metres that is in the old money 46,000 feet, double it design ceiling?

    Cabin pressurization is requiried above 12,500 feet.

    Quote:
    "Pressurization becomes increasingly necessary at altitudes above 12,500 feet (3,800 m) to 14,000 feet (4,300 m) above sea level to protect crew and passengers from the risk of a number of physiological problems caused by the low outside air pressure above that altitude."

    Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization

    I think I'll take Vladimir Babak testimony thank you. The pilots may have been suffering from Hypoxia when they made that statment.
    Given the quoted figures the first thing to wonder is was metres written accidentally.

    BMJ, can a pilot use oxygen masks for a limited period to fly above ceilings? I mean, will the plane perform fine and performance ceiling concerns are primarily about operator health?
    Possible, but the russians quote the performance of the SU-25 in metres and the pilot speaks of performance in terms of metres. It seems russians naturally refer to a unit of measure in metres, just like americans would naturally refer to a measurement in miles or feet.
    Last edited by BMJ; 16th March 2017 at 02:02.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Hi BMJ, Rate of Climb (ROC) for any airplane (am not sure about missiles), decreases with altitude gained, so even the maximum rate of climb figure shown may decrease significantly above each "layer", ie the air density at 7,500 ft is roughly half that at sea level.

    In "optimum conditions", the good ol' Cessna 172 (normally aspirated) has a max ROC of 7-800 fpm at sea level (... with possibly one person and very little fuel... hahaha). It's stated Service Ceiling is around 14,000 ft, but even after achieving 8,000 ft, its ROC is ummm... very "lethargic".

    Turbocharged aircraft and jet/turbines thrive on higher altitudes, but even they will start to lose those impressive climb rates above 16,000 ft.

    Concorde had a phenomenal ROC, but achieving its maximum ceiling of 60,000 feet (which some Learjet models can also attain btw), above 50,000 ft, we're talking a 100 - 200 fpm climb rate.

    As Ron said, it takes a VERY long time

    So your SU-25 maximum rate of climb of 11,400 feet per minute would be a lot less once it had hit say, 20,000 ft.

    In a jet fighter however, they're stressed for high G loadings and sometimes do a "ZOOM" climb; ie accelerate to max airspeed horizontally at max power, then pull back for an almost vertical climb (to a point). In this way, the "max rate of climb" for any airplane can be exceeded for a brief period of time, provided they don't exceed the max g-factor loading (wings & things tend to break off ).
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 16th March 2017 at 22:13.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Adding weight to my position on the ceiling of the SU-25 please consider the folllowing.

    Below a comparison between the amerian A-10 Warthog and it's direct russian counterpart the SU-25.

    The A-10 has a ceiling of 13,700metres versus the SU-25 ceiling here stated as 10,000metres. The difference in ceiling between the two can be attributed to in part the wing length of the SU-25 being shorter and the wing area being lower on the SU-25 compared to the A-10.

    Also adding weight to this argument is the fact that even though the A-10 is less powerful than the SU-25 it still manages to have a higher ceiling.

    Lastly looking at the head on view of both the aircraft below the intake area on the engines of the A-10 is alot larger than the SU-25.

    Last edited by BMJ; 14th March 2017 at 22:22.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Quote Posted by BMJ (here)
    Hi Ron Mauer Sr,
    Thank you for your response.
    Your to modest I remember you commenting on the F-4 on another thread. I should have asked how you were involved with the aircraft at the time as you would be more knowledgeable than me on this topic. I have put my 2 cents worth forward but I think we could all benefit from your expertise on this topic.
    I am not an expert on military aircraft and I was not a military pilot. I was in the first Marine squadron, VMFA-531, to get F4's on the East Coast in 1962. The F4s were brand new. My job was maintenance of communication and navigation equipment installed on the F4's. My rank was only a Lance Corporal (E3). I got my pilot wings in 1977 as a civilian.
    Last edited by Ron Mauer Sr; 15th March 2017 at 02:25.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Quote Posted by BMJ (here)
    Adding weight to my position on the ceiling of the SU-25 please consider the folllowing.

    Below a comparison between the amerian A-10 Warthog and it's direct russian counterpart the SU-25.

    The A-10 has a ceiling of 13,700metres versus the SU-25 ceiling here stated as 10,000metres. The difference in ceiling between the two can be attributed to in part the wing length of the SU-25 being shorter and the wing area being lower on the SU-25 compared to the A-10.

    Also adding weight to this argument is the fact that even though the A-10 is less powerful than the SU-25 it still manages to have a higher ceiling.

    Lastly looking at the head on view of both the aircraft below the intake area on the engines of the A-10 is alot larger than the SU-25.

    Yup, it's wingspan & wing area, but also the shape of those wings; the A10 has straight "hershey bar" wings with a bend in the middle, compared to the SU's sweptback wings (better for speed, not so good for lift), but the A-10 is also quite "draggy". Plus the shape of the airfoil itself (ie the wings' side-on shape). Am not sure if the front profiles/drawings you've provided are to the same scale.

    For quick maintenence (and many other factors), the A-10 uses a very simple design, ie it uses fanjet engines, configured, mounted externally in "nacelles" (pods) & specced very similar to a bizjet. The SU's engines are mounted inside the fuselage (less drag).

    The older style turbojets are slimmer profile, develop a lot of oooomph but also use a lot more fuel. (ie compare the earliest Learjets which used turbojets, to the later models which use fanjets). The power-to-weight ratio and specific operating parameters of the engines play a factor, too. Each different type of jet engine will usually have an optimised altitude where it develops most of its power (and yes, the air intakes can affect this).

    Using Concorde as an example again, it's engines were originally derived from the British delta-winged Vulcan Bomber which was subsonic, and the modified versions in Concorde still can't take incoming air directly at supersonic speeds. The Concorde uses clever variable ramps within it's nacelles to slow the intake air for the engines. (Sorta like adjusting the nozzle on your hose; the same amount of water is still passing through the hose - the nozzle adjusts the "thrust" coming out).

    It's gets "complicated" beyond the basic comparitive specs you show

    A simpler but crude comparison would be that of a similar powered SUV to a sports car.
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 16th March 2017 at 23:05.

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    SBU orders to destroy all evidence of the conducted special operation MH17

    The Saker
    by Scott Humor May 23, 2017



    If you want to know my opinion that hasn’t changed since 2014. The Boeing flight MH177 was shot down by the Ukrainian air force fighter jets, but not necessarily piloted by Ukrainian pilots. It was a CIA and NATO operation to frame Russia. Most likely the Dutch government was a part of this operation.

    Now, they are trying to hang all the dogs on Waltzman -Poroshenko, because neither the Dutch monarchs, nor the CIA would fancy to be implemented in this crime.

    Poroshenko is a dead man walking, especially after banning the Russian social media, which is where every Ukrainian lives.

    Germany is pressing Ukraine to get back and start cooperating with Russia in terms of trade, because otherwise is a total alles kaput.

    That’s why someone from CIA or NATO is leaking the documents to “Sovershenno sekretno,” which is not a pro-Putin publication. I am certain that these documents are real, and that all they do is to implement in this horrible crime a few low level Lugansk regional SBU officers, the country bumpkins.

    May 9th leak of personnel data of the Luganst Regional SBU office was the first hint. I posted two videos, thinking that these could be the beginning of something bigger. I was right.

    No doubt that we will see more documents and even witnesses coming forward.

    =================================

    The following is the translation of an article SBU orders to destroy all evidence of the conducted special operation

    Below are images of 4 «цiлком таемнiх» («top secret») documents generated by the Security Service of Ukraine

    The newspaper “Under Absolute Secrecy” got hold of photocopies of documents generated by the Security Service of Ukraine SBU pertinent to the special operation commenced by the SBU in order to find and destroy all the evidence of mass murder that took place in the sky over the Donbas on July 17, 2014.

    The newspaper “Sovershenno sekretno” initiated its own investigation title:
    “Unwrapping The Mystery a mystery of the Boeing MH17 crash. The operation of the Security Service of Ukraine “Clean up” Part 1
    – Order to conduct the following special procedures in order to destroy the facts of a special operation.

    – Order to carry out effective preventive measures among witnesses of special operations that were conducted on July 17, 2014.

    – Order to identify and detain witnesses of the civil aircraft explosion.

    – Order to redeploy and regroup the servicemen who were deployed to serve their official duties in the territory of the village Grabovo, Donetsk region.

    – As part of a special operation, command to destroy all materials that indicate the presence of a combat aircraft having carried out combat missions in the specified area on July 17, 2014.
    THE SOURCE OF THESE PHOTOCOPIES
    First, we reacted to these documents with skepticism. Most of them, judging by the holes punched in a side, were extracted from some folders and photographed. The orders, encrypted telegrams, plans and decrees are written on the official forms with official trident-crowned letterhead of “Служба Безпеки Украiни” which means the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), as well as on the ordinary sheets of A4 paper. All of the documents contain signatures, resolutions, file numbers and seals. The materials generated by the secret bureaucracy of the Ukrainian “безпеки” or security have fallen into our hands, and these explosive materials should lead to the international scandal and should bring the President of Ukraine Poroshenko and his generals on the defenders bench of the tribunal at the Hague as war criminals.

    The person who handed us these documents appeared out of nowhere and disappeared into nowhere. During our several meetings in the course of a month he changed five phone SIM cards and changed his email address three times.

    When asked why he decided to leak the documents to us, he replied that he knows and respects us as journalists of the newspaper “Sovershenno sekretno”.

    When asked who he is and how he managed to get the secret SBU documents, he answered something like this: “This is an intermediate result of a long and diligent work. In Ukraine, I have several old friends, who are sick and tired of being set up and walked all over. These guys are finicky, however, on one hand they want these bastards to get what deserve, but on the other hand, they want a small safety net. That’s why they want some money for these documents.” After he mentioned money, we got a bit sad. The financial power of our editorial office and our partner the Journalist Agency for Federal Investigations FLB.ru are rather modest. “Believe me,” he told us. “I personally just want those SBU bastards to get what they deserve.”

    Copies of the documents looked legitimate. Later, we gave them over to one of the Lubyanka (Moscow city Criminal Police Department) experts for examination, and he pointed out that all of the documents had been drawn up according to the rules of record management that go back to the KGB. Many senior employees of the security service of Ukraine are the former employees of KGB. Of course the authenticity of these documents can be established not by journalists, or even a Police expert, but by the court appointed investigators, who must study the original orders and decrees, without sanitization made in our case, apparently for operative purposes and for security reasons.

    What’s important for us that finally after three years since the plane crash the names of real witnesses and probably real executors of this murder are beginning to emerge. That’s why today you have the opportunity to read copies of 4 completely criminal orders issued by the Security Services of Ukraine.

    And that’s why, we have no choice, the newspaper “Sovershenno sekretno” announces a public investigation ““Let’s uncover the secret of Boeing MH17 crash.

    Only with your help we can get other criminal orders, encrypted telegrams and decrees. The international commission for investigation of the Malaysian Boeing 777 crash in the Netherlands does not want to work, and distorts and classifies the investigation results. Let’s all help to find out what had happened, or at least get closer to the truth. The truth is about how those 298 people who died.

    These four photocopies allow us to draw three preliminary groundbreaking conclusions.

    The first conclusion is: that the new Kiev authorities are responsible for the shooting down of the Malaysian Boeing 777 MH17 flight. President Poroshenko and his generals have been hiding the truth and lying for the last 3 years.

    The second conclusion is that the Ukraine’s military aviation is involved in this resonant plane crash.

    The third conclusion is that in order to cover up the traces of this monstrous crime, starting with the end of July 2014 the SBU undertook measures to destroy the facts of this special operation and all the materials indicating the presence of a combat aircraft having carried out combat missions on July 17, 2014.

    Dozens of people were involved in this special operation of downing the aircraft and the subsequent “cleanup”; there were hundreds of unwitting witnesses among the military personnel of the Ukrainian army. We hope that sooner or later they will speak up.

    In the meantime we expect that within the next month or so we will be able to obtain other documents from the depths of the Ukrainian “безпеки” (security) and the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense that will point at the real culprit of the MH17 flight crash.

    SPECIAL SBU OPERATION TO LIQUIDATE THE EVIDENCE
    We are posting the SBU secret documents in the chronological order the way they were issued. The photocopies of originals are accompanied by the Russian translation. As it is stated in one of the orders, the start of the “cleanup” operation was given three days after the shooting of the aircraft, on July 20, 2014. It was on this day when the first deputy director of the SBU Colonel General Vasily Sergeyevich Gritsak approved the “Plan for the main organizational, counterintelligence and special investigation measures of the DKR SBU dated 20.07.2014 No. 1 / 1-837.” (DKR is counterintelligence department of the SBU. We do not have the copy of this Gritsak’s plan yet, but hope that we will get it – FLB)

    Document No. 1
    http://www.sovsekretno.ru/public/use...20717-2105.jpg


    Top Secret

    (without supplement - for official use only)

    Copy №1

    Personally to the Head of KRP Office of the DKR SBU Kiev
    (KRP DKR is Office of counterintelligence search of counterintelligence department – FLB)

    Stamp: Security Service of Ukraine

    Ref. No. 1/978 dated 22.07.2014

    Resolution: <...> As part of the ATO in this territory of the Lugansk region I ask you to transfer the materials to the DKR SBU, Kiev.
    26. Gritsak, 26.07.2014
    In regarding to the initiation of the case of the counterintelligence investigation “Katsap”[Katsap is derogative for “Russian”]

    Based on the order of the Security Service of Ukraine from 02.09.2003 No. 0012 and the directive of the Director of SBU dated 05.08.2009 No. 3/1855 “On certain problems and issues in the organization of work on counterintelligence cases,” we report that on July 22, 2014 we initiated the case of the counterintelligence investigation “Katsap” No. 1/1044 regarding a citizen of Ukraine, the head of one of the state enterprises. The case is classified as “intelligence activity of special services of foreign states, organizations, and groups of persons against Ukraine” and it has been filed by the counterintelligence department of the Security Service of Ukraine in Lugansk region.

    The reason for initiating this case was the operational data obtained during the counterintelligence investigation in the problem areas of the Lugansk region, which indicates the involvement of this subject with the special services of RF in order to destroy the state system of Ukraine, as it is shows in the behavior and actions of the subject.

    From persons, who confidentially cooperate with the Security Services of Ukraine, we obtain information that the subject “Katsap” has the regular contacts with representatives of the terrorist organization of the LNR (Luganst People’s Republic). Namely the object has periodic contacts with <…>

    In addition, “Katsap” communicates with representatives of the mass media of foreign countries (RF, the European Union) in which he indicates that he is a direct witness and has evidence of law violations conducted by the Ukrainian army and aviation, namely of the shooting down of the civil aircraft on 17.07.2014.

    In daily activities he uses conspiracy methods, possibly has several national passports, periodically changes home addresses. These features of the behavior of the object further indicate his possible involvement with the national security services of foreign states.

    “Katsap” has stable connections among representatives of local authorities, law enforcement agencies and regulatory bodies of the region and accordingly has real opportunities to influence the environment and to obtain diverse intelligence information.

    The information received indicates that “Katsap” probably owns information that can cause damage to the state and be used by the Russian national special service.


    Amendment:
    1. Plan of counterintelligence measures for SKP “Katsap” No. 1/1044, c/c No. 1, Identification No. 1/4 -2948 from 22.07.2014, secret, in 3 (three) sheets.

    Head of the SBU Department

    for Lugansk region

    colonel М. Grek «22» July 2014 ”
    —-------------------

    As you can see, one high-ranking Ukrainian state official has been targeted [by] the officers of the SBU department for the Lugansk region that were conducting a special operation. A week after the Boeing crash, on July 22, the operational case “Katsap” was filed against him. As it follows from this document “Katsap” interested “безпеку” (security) mainly because he “is a direct witness and has evidence of law violations by the Ukrainian army and aviation, namely of the shooting down of the civil aircraft on 17.07.2014”. We do not know yet what happened to this witness.

    Document No. 2

    Office KRP DKP SBU

    Urgent Top Secret

    (urgency mark) (classification)

    Outgoing encrypted telegram No. 6130

    From: Kiev, UKRP SBU

    Destination: Lugansk

    Recipient: Head of Office SBU for Lugansk region

    Mr. Grek М.

    Regarding the detention of witnesses

    (in addition to ET No. 6138 from 24.07.2014)

    In pursuance of the instructions of the Director of the SBU “on identification and detention of witnesses” of the incident occurred on July 17, 2014, near village Grabovo, Donetsk region, operative support of materials regarding a special operation in the territory of Donetsk and Lugansk regions is carried out by the Office KRP DKR .

    It has been established that there are actual witnesses of the shooting down of the civilian aircraft, some persons are identified and detained, but at the same time the Office has received data that one of the servicemen who is located in the territory of the Lugansk region has videotaped this event.

    In this regard, we ask you to identify and detain a person from among the military personnel who made a photo-video recording of the event.

    In the future we ask you to report on the situation directly to the UKRP DKR of the Security Service of Ukraine.

    Sincerely,
    Head of department No. 4 UKRP
    DKR SB of Ukraine
    colonel Kalchenko R.

    The signature is correct cap. Vaskov S.S.
    Subscription No. 073 24.07.2014

    Executor Arrived at 17.00 24.07.2014
    Vaskov S.S. Encrypted at 17.00 24.07.2014
    UKRP _________________________________
    (head department) (Signature of encrypting person)
    Tel. No. 7-21 Special notebook No. 11 Page No. 27
    —----------------

    As you remember, some witnesses of the “shooting down of the civilian aircraft” were the inhabitants of settlements in the area of the plane crash .

    They were shown by the Russian mass media and they testified that on the day of the tragedy the locals heard explosions and saw the fighter jets. But does anyone know about the fate of the Ukrainian soldier who took pictures of the Ukraine air force military aircrafts attack on the Boeing flight MH17 and who was searched for by the Ukrainian counterintelligence on July 24?

    As our operational source told us — this man was called Vyacheslav, he had the rank of sergeant, served in one of the mortar element of ATO. Vyacheslav made photos of “shooting down of the civil aircraft” by using his smartphone Apple iPhone 4. (We hope to get these pictures – Ed.)

    We speak about him in the past tense because this sergeant died, and he died under strange circumstances. Vyacheslav was shot by a sniper when he was outside of the combat zone. At the time of his death Vyacheslav was the only junior rank among the senior officers surrounding him. His personal effects were immediately taken away by SBU officers, but the day before, as our source said, Vyacheslav managed to transfer photos to his acquaintance – commander of the mortar element of the military unit A1556, warrant officer Andrei Vladimirovich Drozd. (Interim commander of the m/u A1556 – Lieutenant Colonel I. Stakhiv, in the Russian transcription he most likely is Stakhov).

    According to the same information, warrant officer Drozd as the commander of the mortar regiment received an order for nonstop mortar shelling of the Boeing crash area. In addition, it is known that for some time he was in the hospital due to a leg wound.
    We bring up here all these details because warrant officer Andrei Drozd is a valuable witness and we hope very much that “preventive work” wasn’t carried out with him the same way as it was, allegedly, conducted against his colleague Vyacheslav by a sniper bullet. Lieutenant Colonel I. Stakhiv is also a valuable witness.

    To be continued….
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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    SBU cleans-up after Ukrainian air force shoots down MH17

    by Scott Humor The Saker May 27, 2017


    Part I.
    SBU orders to destroy all evidence of the conducted special operation MH17 (see above post)

    Part II.

    A few notes regarding the published materials:
    Upon release of these documents by the Sovershenno secretno newspaper, some observers pointed out that these documents are most likely fake, because of the reference used in Document No.3 where the General V.S. Gritsak refers to the Donetsk People’s republic as a “держава” which means a state, he also uses the words “державні установ” which means “state organization.”

    However, this exact formula for identification of the Donetsk and Lugansk republics has been used by the Ukrainian Court System and the law enforcement from May 11, 2014 when the referendum by the Donetsk Republic announced the de jure sovereignty of the DPR.

    The unified state register of court decisions of Ukraine reported that on April 23, 2016 the Oktyabrsky district court of Poltava issued a death certificate for a citizen of Donetsk Republic. In the document the court uses the following wording “c. Donetsk of Donetsk People’s republic.”

    The fact that a district court in Ukraine was using the name of the “republic” so casually made a huge impression when the document was finally discovered in April of this year.

    Ukraine has a very unorthodox way to determine what countries come under the category of neighboring countries. According to the Military expenditures and their distribution in the leading and neighboring Ukraine, the States of 2004 chart published on the official website of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, neighboring with Ukrainian States are Turkey, Poland and Hungary.

    Considering that these and many other official papers, documents and charts have been produced for Ukraine by the CIA and its privately owned contractors, otherwise known as people who don’t know geography, it still doesn’t explain why would the deputy director of the SBU used the term “neighboring state” in reference to Donetsk while ordering the conduct of the special intelligence operations there.

    There are might be several different explanations of why the SBU refers to DPR as a state and its leaders as the “governmental bodies” and treating them as foreign states, against whom the SBU has been conducting an “anti-terror operation or ATO” that was officially launched on the eve of April 13by the Verkhovna Rada-appointed Interim President Turchynov.

    I believe that the SBU in the summer of 2014 used the term “суміжні держави” (neighboring state) in reference to the DPR in the paragraph #1 of the Document No.3 incorporated hereafter, because this term protected the Kiev authorities and the SBU from the claims that they were using regular armed forces of Ukraine against Ukrainian citizens, a move that would normally brand them as a repressive and rogue regime.

    Using this perfidious verbal gymnastic of the Kiev regime, the SBU, which has been under a control of the CIA, managed to claim themselves as the victims, while they have been using the third biggest army in the world to attack the population of two cities and surrounding villages.

    There is one, but very important aspect of the Ukrainian tragedy that you should keep in mind while trying to comprehend the setup of the Ukrainian War operation. The referendums in Donetsk and Lugansk that took place on May 11, 2014 were for sovereignty of the republics. The republics held the referendums even after the President of Russia, Vladimir Putin, asked them publicly not to have those referendums. If I remember it correctly the leaders of the republics at the time responded that Putin wasn’t their president to tell them what to do. Many times after that Putin said that the Russian government saw the republics as parts of Ukraine, and that the republics should achieve an autonomous status within Ukraine. He was even accused in “trying to push the republics back to Ukraine.”

    He didn’t explain why he was against the referendum for sovereignty of the republics. Now, we might understand what he, being an intelligence officer and an expert in law, saw back then. The SBU leaked documents reveal how exactly the military junta in Kiev was using the proclaimed independence of the republics to cover up their war crimes against the civilians.

    Based on the winning argument that Russian legal team presented recently in the International Criminal Court titled the Argument presented by the Russian Federation the in the case concerning Application of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism and of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (Ukraine v. Russian Federation), everything that took place in Ukraine starting with Maidan was the Kiev regime’s own doing.

    =============================
    Terms and abbreviations used in the documents.
    ГУ/GU – Главное управление, Main Directorate
    ВКР/VKR – военной контрразведки, military counterintelligence
    ДКР/DKR – Департамента контрразведки, the Main Military Counterintelligence Directorate
    SBU – Security Service of Ukraine
    СЗР/SZR szru.gov.ua – Служба зовнішньої розвідки – Foreign Intelligence service of Ukraine
    The Department for National Economy Counterintelligence Protection DKZED, a leading department within the SBU
    Ukrainian SBU, its Structure and management, in Russian
    The SBU headquarter in Kiev takes an entire block in center city
    Official website sbu.gov.ua
    Original publication in Russian
    =======================

    Document No. 3 Dated June 24 2014


    Two Seals, a square seal and a round seal, both say “Security services of Ukraine” in Ukrainian language.
    Classified: Top secret
    Security Service of Ukraine Copy No. 1
    Office of Inspector General
    Ref. No. 1/1038
    24.07.2014
    APPROVED BY
    First deputy Head
    of the Security Service of Ukraine
    Colonel General V.S. Gritsak
    July 24, 2014

    Addition to the Plan for the main organizational, counterintelligence and special investigation measures of the Counterintelligence Department (site Lugansk city) of the SBU and special forces units ATO for the 2nd half of 2014.

    1. Counteraction against intelligence activity
    1.1 Together with DVKR (the Department of Military Counterintelligence – Ed.) of the SBU to establish (during the 3rd quarter of the year) intelligence centers of objects located on the border territory that conduct technical and human intelligence against Ukraine, to ensure (during the 3rd quarter) the study of their personnel during the possible visit of Ukraine.
    Ex: DKR SBU, DVKR SBU.
    I.c.: Kondratyuk V.V.
    1.2 Within the framework of the ATO in cooperation with the DKR SBU to carry out (during the 3rd quarter) technical infiltration into the governmental bodies of the neighboring state (DNR), from whose position intelligence activities against Ukraine is being conducted.
    Ex: DKR SBU, DVKR SBU.
    I.c.: Kondratyuk V.V.
    2. Blocking of intelligence actions of special services of RF, including those carried out from the position of special services of the self-proclaimed DNR.
    In cooperation with DVKR SBU for detection, documentation and termination of the intelligence activities of the Federal Security Service [FSB], which conduct their operations using the positions of the armed units DPR against Ukraine, to infiltrate (during the 2nd half of year) the personnel and agent network of the of the state security strictures of the DPR on the basis of revealed intelligence measures of the named foreign special service.
    Ex: DKR SBU, DVKR SBU.
    I.c.: Kondratyuk V.V.
    3. On countermeasures to the intelligence activities of the RF special services
    Together with DBKR SBU to document and terminate (during this year) the activities of the special services of RF that operate under the cover of the military forces of the DPR as well as state and non-governmental structures that are located on the territory of Ukraine, but have an influence of the military forces of the special services of RF from the positions of DNR.
    Ex: DKR SBU, DVKR SBU.
    I.c.: Kondratyuk V.V.

    4. In the line of counterintelligence protection in relation to the state special operations conducted within the framework of the ATO in the interests of the state, as well as counterintelligence measures against the foreign special services, and prevention of their actions detrimental of our state.Together with DKR SBU, DVKR SBU, and the special forces of the ATO with the purpose of timely detection, prevention and termination of intelligence activities of foreign special services in the areas of conducting special operations to ensure the monitoring of foreign presence (Torez city, village Grabovo). Within the framework of the ATO conduct special measures to destroy any facts of the conduct of the special operation. Obtain information about the presence of possible witnesses among the residents of the district, the military and others. Use effective preventive measures.
    Ex: DKR SBU, DVKR SBU.
    I.c.: Kondratyuk V.V.

    5. In the line of counteraction to the special services of RF.

    Together with DKR SBU and DVKR SBU identify (during the 3rd quarter) persons from military personnel carrying out transfer of information protected by the state, obtain the facts of their cooperation with the resident intelligence agents of the DPR . Based on the facts, detain them for further criminal changes.
    Ex: DKR SBU, DVKR SBU.
    I.c.: Kondratyuk V.V.

    6. Together with DKR SBU, provide an implementation of the Comprehensive plan of counter-intelligence protection SZR of Ukraine for 2014
    <…>
    V. Kondratyuk
    «24» July 2014

    [As you see in this classified document, the first deputy of the SBU and the head of the Anti-Terrorist Center of the SBU Colonel-General Vasily Gritsak directly and frankly gives the command “Attack” to carry out “special measures to destroy the evidence of the special operation.” He suggests the “use of effective preventive measures” against possible witnesses, regardless, if they were local civilian residents or the military servicemen. Could it be that it was acceding to such measures the sergeant Vyacheslav was killed by a sniper?note from a publisher]

    Document No. 4 June 28, 2014



    Letterhead of the Security Service of Ukraine
    Marked in the right top corner as Top secret
    Office of Inspector General Copy No.1
    28.07.2014 No. о/l-147
    Personally
    To Head of Department KR
    <…>

    Concerning the conduct of the special operations
    In pursuance of the instructions and orders of the Head of the Security Service of Ukraine, in accordance with the plan for the implementation of special operations conducted within the framework of the ATO on the territory of the Donetsk region (village Grabovo) I ask you to instruct the heads of the units of the Office of SBU in the Donetsk region and special units of the armed forces of Ukraine about the destruction of any materials that indicate law violations by personnel and servicemen of the armed forces of Ukraine.

    In addition according to the plan of the main organizational, KR and ORZ (counterintelligence and operational-investigative measures – Ed) DKR SB of Ukraine from 20.07.2014 No. 1 / 1-837 approved by the First Deputy Head of the Security Service of Ukraine Colonel General Gritsak V. S. implement:
    – effective prophylactic measures among witnesses of the special operation on July 17, 2014 ( identify and detain witnesses of civil aircraft explosion);

    – Rotate (regroup) the servicemen who were deployed on the territory of the village Grabovo, Donetsk region; [Rotation in Ukrainian armed forces might mean replacement, or deployment to a different region – translator.]

    as a part of a special operation, destroy all materials that indicate the presence of combat aircraft and their carrying out combat missions in the specified area on July 17, 2014;

    – conduct prophylactic (preventive) measures and rotation of servicemen of the air force squadron who conducted flights in the specified area. In particular, the servicemen of the Aviation Brigade No. A-4104, Chuguev city, Kharkov region. [See translator’s notes below.]
    <…>
    Head of the Office of Inspector General А. Kalyuzhnyak
    ____________________________________________________
    «To destroy any materials indicating the presence of combat aircraft and (them) conducting the combat missions in the specified area on July 17, 2014». A signature. An official seal. What is it, if not a personally signed sentence for cynical concealment, and a cover-up of one of the most heinous crimes of the 21st century?

    The Office of the Inspector General is the structural unit having the highest position in the hierarchy of the Security Service of Ukraine. This Office is entrusted with overseeing the implementation of all significant orders of the SBU leadership. Orders and decrees of the Office are binding. The Head of the Office of Inspector the General, General Kalyuzhnyak submitted directly to Head of the SBU Valentin Nalivaichenko and Nalivaichenko to President Poroshenko.

    THE LEADING PERPETRATORS OF THE “CLEAN-UP”
    It is interesting to look, if not directly in the eyes, then at least into the biographies of those high-ranking SBU officials who gave these criminal orders


    Gritsak Vasily Sergeevich
    (Грицак Василь Сергійович) – 1967.

    After the service rendered to Petro Poroshenko in destroying the evidence of the fighter jets carrying out the combat mission near the village of Grabovo on July 17, 2014 , Vasily Gritsak’s career went up sharply. On July 2, 2015, he was appointed the Head of the SBU in place of Nalivaichenko. On March 25, 2016 received the rank of the rank of General of Ukrainian Army.

    Gritsak began the service in 1990 in the organs of the KGB of the USSR in the rank of sergeant. After Ukraine got its independence, he rose to become a head of the Main Directorate of the SBU for Kiev and Kiev region, and in December 2009 he was appointed the first deputy Director of the SBU and the head of the Main Office “K” (anti-corruption unit).

    In March 2010 Gritsak was unexpectedly dismissed from the SBU, but he remained enlisted. For four years he managed the personal security for the oligarch-confectioner Petro Poroshenko. When Poroshenko became president, on July 7, 2014 his strongman “licznik” Gritsak was returned to the SBU this time as the First Deputy Director of the SBU and the head of the SBU Anti-Terrorist Center to solve the problem with the Boeing. Per newspaper “RBC-Ukraine,” General Gritsak is considered to be “one hundred percent man of President Poroshenko”


    Kalyuzhnyak Anatoly
    (Анатолій Калюжняк) – 1962.

    The Head of the Office of Inspector General of the SBU. The author of the unforgettable idea of “effective prophylactic measures” against any witnesses. He was born in Khmelnitsky region, in 1988 he graduated from the Kharkov Law Institute. In 1990 he joined the KGB of the USSR. He held the post of deputy head of the Anti-Corruption Department of the Khmelnitsky regional office of the USB. In 2005 in the rank of colonel he became the head of the Kremenchug office of the SBU.

    In April 2012 he was appointed a Deputy Head of the main office “K” of the SBU. In early 2014, Kalyuzhnyak served as a deputy head of the Office of Inspector General of the SBU. In this role, he testified at the April 2014 hearings of the interim investigative Commission of the Verkhovna Rada about the mass murders during the Maidan.


    Kondratyuk Valiry Vitalyevich
    (Кондратюк Валерій Віталійович) – born in 1970.

    As the result of this special operation, after Gritsuk the most benefits got the Head of the Counter-Intelligence department of the SBU General Kondratyuk. The same Kondratyuk, who received the order “within the framework of the ATO conduct special measures to destroy any facts of conduct of the special operation.”

    A year after this “clean-up” on July 27, 2015 he was appointed by the Presidential decree as the head of the Main Intelligence Office of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense . A year later, on October 15, 2016, Poroshenko appointed Kondratyuk as the Deputy head of his presidential administration.

    Valery Kondratyuk graduated from the Kiev Higher Combined Arms Command twice Red Banner School named after M.V. Frunzein in 1991. For some time he served for the SBU, but was kicked out with prejudice. According to the Ukrainian journalist Vladimir Boyko, Kondratyuk was exposed by the Internal Security Office of the SBU as an agent of the US special services. However, after the events on Maidan he was reinstated in the SBU. The fact of his work for the US that was prior considered to be treason, after the Maidan became an honorary part of his biography. Let’s remember that Gritsak also was purged from the ranks of counterintelligence officers in 2010, and now he is the head of the SBU.


    Mikhail Grek
    This is the colonel who organized a manhunt on “Katsap” – the witness who had evidence of the Ukrainian army and air forces violating the law, namely evidence of them shooting down the civilian aircraft.

    Grek was appointed as the head of the Office SBU for the Lugansk region by a Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Oleksandr Turchynov with decree № 413/2014 on April 15th, 2014. The fate of “Katsap” is not known, yet.

    Kalchenko R. Colonel, Head of department No. 4 UKRP DKR SB of Ukraine
    (Office of Counterintelligence Investigations of the Counter-Intelligence Department). He was the one, who all your zeal directed at “the establishment and detention of witnesses of the shooting of a civilian aircraft.” We have a little information about Colonel Kalchenko. What’s interesting is that after the “Boeing” his name came up in another “Hague” case. In September 2014, Kalchenko was mentioned among persons involved in the organization of the illegal SBU prison located near Kiev, on the territory of the penal military battalion. M/u (military unite) is located near Vodokanal, next to a large shooting range

    We recall that in May 2016 the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights issued a report stating that the Ukrainian security services were implicated in illegal detention of people, cruel treatment and torture of prisoners. The report noted the use of secret detention centers by the Ukrainian secret services in which prisoners were subjected to abuse and humiliation. On May 25, 2016 the delegation of the UN Subcommittee on Prevention of Torture suspended its work on the territory of Ukraine, the reason was the failure of the SBU to provide the UN representatives access to places of detention.

    AT THE NAMELESS HEIGHT
    The Malaysian Boeing 777-2H6ER board 9M-MRD performed the daily flight MH17 Amsterdam-Kuala-Lumpur, when it disappeared from the radar screens at 48°02’25” north latitude and 38°46’22” east longitude which is approximately 50 km from the Ukrainian-Russian border, not far from the small town Torez. The catastrophe occurred on July 17, 2014, at 16:20 Kiev time or 17:20 Moscow time. The liner had to cross the Russian border approximately at 17:25 MSK.

    The Ukrainian Independent News Agency (UNIAN) was one of the first mass media sources to report about the accident. It should be known that the owner of UNIAN the oligarch Igor Kolomoisky financed the air traffic control service in Dnepropetrovsk that “guided” Boeing until the last second of its flight. Kolomoisky took the control over of all flight services in southeastern Ukraine immediately after the arrival to Kiev of the CIA director John Brennan in April 2014. A month before this tragedy there was a seizure of “Ukr Avia Ru” and a criminal case was opened against the chief air traffic dispatcher of Ukraine Yury Chernichenko. Poroshenko signed an order dismissing Chernichenko the very next day after he was elected as the president.

    The first report on the plane crash was made at 18:12 (Kiev time) with reference to information in social networks: UNIAN announced that According to recent reports of the “Information Resistance” a passenger airplane crashed north of Tores. At 16:20 communication was lost between the ground services in Kiev and Rostov with the Malaysia Airlines airliner performed the Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur flight. ”

    The group “Information Resistance” is in fact was title of the website of blogger Dmitry Timchuk, a former Ukrainian military serviceman who worked at the time for the SBU. Currently, Timchuk is a deputy of the Verkhovnaya Rada. At 18:37 the group “Information Resistance” reported “the ATO forces security services don’t have air defense facilities in the area of the operation.”

    At 18:47 minutes on the official website of the president of Ukraine posted a statement from Petro Poroshenko, in which he particularly stated: …we emphasize that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not conducted any strikes against airborne targets.”

    At 21:12 UNIAN reports with a new link to Timchuk’s blog: “According to the recent reports of the group “Information Resistance,” a convoy of terrorists was seen today at about 13:30 in the area of settlement Snezhnoe. The convoy consisted of 3 tanks, 2 armored personnel carriers, a truck with the fighters and a truck with a large-caliber machine gun installed. And also, a long bed truck with a carriage transporting the air defense system “Buk.” The convoy proceeded in the direction of settlement Dmitrovka.”

    Immediately after, at 23:46 the UNIAN posted another article with quotes form the The Wall Street Journal: “The US Intelligence service has confirms that the Malaysian airplane was shot down by a ground-to-air missile.” That’s how the story about the “Russian “Buk” began its journey around the world.

    The aircraft wreckage was scattered on an area of about 50 square km, on a plot of more than 10 km long and 5 km wide. The search area included the settlements Moskovskoe, Rassypnoe, Grabovo, Stryukovo and Grabovskoye water storage reservoir. Not far from the Rasypnoye a front of the aircraft was found, near Grabovo – the central and tail sections. Most of the wreckage was discovered about 8.5 km from the last point recorded by radars. 298 people died, of them 283 passengers: citizens of Netherlands – 193, Malaysia – 43, Australia – 27, Indonesia – 12, Great Britain – 10, Germany – 4, Belgium – 4, Philippines – 3, Canada – 1, New Zealand – 1.

    The Ukrainian side ignored the proposal of DPR for the 10-kilometer ceasefire zone around the crash area. (Remember, in particular, the mortar element of warrant officer Andrei Drozd, military unit A1556)

    The first operation for removing the aircraft wreckage began only on November 4, 2014. For almost six months the “Grads”, mortars and howitzers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine non-stop hammered a 50-kilometer space on which the remains of the airliner, or more accurately material evidence of the killing of three hundred people, were scattered.

    Was the operation of the SBU “Clean-Up” successful? We don’t think so.

    The investigation of the newspaper “Soverschenno sekretno.” “We uncover a secret of Boeing MH17 wreckage” continues.

    The editorial office of the newspaper “Soverschenno sekretno” thanks the Agency for Federal Investigations FLB.ru for its assistance in preparing the publication”
    22.05.2017 Sergey Sokolov, Alexey Chelnokov

    ==================
    Notes and references
    The only regiment I could find that matches the description is 203-тя навчальна авіаційна бригада (203 НАБр, в/ч А4104) is 203th Training Aviation Brigade under the command of Victor Nikoluk.

    At the beginning of 2014 the brigade reportedly had one AN-26, two MI-8MT, ten Aero L-39C Albatros , two An – 26A (An-26Sh). Helicopter MI-8MT, 81 yellow and 87 yellow images

    Video of the regiment A-4104 and its commander Gennady Dubovik in January 2014, before they committed multiple war crimes..

    ========================================
    Scott Humor
    Director of Research and Development
    author of The enemy of the State
    Follow me on twitter
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  23. Link to Post #1333
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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    US Won't Disclose MH17 Crash Info If Truth Runs Counter to its Stance - Putin

    Sputnik Politics
    14:29 17.06.2017
    (updated 17:07 17.06.2017)
    MH17 Crash Investigation (247)


    © Sputnik/ Maksim Blinov

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said in an interview with US director Oliver Stone that the United States would never disclose information on the crash of the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 passenger plane in eastern Ukraine in 2014, if it went against their position.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 crashed in eastern Ukraine in July 2014 while flying to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam. All 298 passengers and crew aboard the aircraft died in the incident.

    [On] answering a question on whether he believed that the US intelligence had any information regarding the case,
    "I'm confident that, that is exactly the case. But regrettably, there is no proof from the partners that we've received," Putin said
    The Russian president added that Washington wanted to put the blame for the catastrophe on the Donbass militia.

    "Now, that's quite understandable, because we understand their position on Ukraine. And certainly they all wanted to shift the blame on the militia fighters in Donbass and indirectly Russia, who supports the militia… If this information is contrary [to the official position] then they will never reveal it," Putin explained.


    The Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) tasked with probing the crash announced in September that the MH17 airliner was allegedly downed by a Buk missile system, which was brought from Russia and after the crash returned there. However, Russia's Almaz-Antey concern rejected findings in the probe, saying that three simulations showed that the missile was launched from the Zaroshchens'ke area, controlled by Ukraine's army at the time of the downing.

    The president spoke in Russian with the Oscar-winning director for his four-episode documentary dubbed "The Putin Interviews." Translated transcripts of their discussions were released in English as a book on Friday.

    ========================================

    So... since none of the "partners" have released any evidence/proof of their theory that led to heavy sanctions against Russia (Europe, actually), it just means that all of the evidence/proofs are actually against such a theory... therefore... it's an admission their theory is baloney.
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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Still no answers: Dutch MPs slam team
    investigating MH17 for lack of trasparency



    Published on 16 Oct 2017
    A number of Dutch lawmakers are angry over a lack of transparency in
    the investigation into the downing of flight MH17, the plane tragically
    shot down over Ukraine back in 2014. MPs in the Netherlands say the
    Dutch Investigation team heading the probe are withholding potentially
    vital information.

    RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    Dutch investigators finally collaborate with Russia on MH17

    By Dmitry Sedov via Oriental Review
    Mon, 04 Sep 2017 08:37 UTC



    In late August Russia handed over decoded radar data to the Netherlands from the aerial zone where Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down on July 17, 2014. These materials had initially been provided in their original, i.e., non-decoded form, along with the software needed to decode them.

    However, the Dutch investigators, despite being armed with the latest in modern technology as well as the assistance of their British colleagues, were not able to decode the recordings, and in the end they asked Russian experts to do it. In three years this has been the only time they have asked to collaborate. Never before had the commission accepted any Russian offers of assistance.

    The decoded recordings clearly showed that the missile had been fired from the zone controlled by the Ukrainian military. And this is not some fabricated story concocted by journalists, but documented, technical information.


    Estimated distance to Flight MH-17 from the Ukrainian-controlled BUK launcher in Zaroshchenskoe at the moment of attack (less than 30km) lies within the operational range, unlike one, presumably operated by the Donbass militia.

    However, every sign seems to indicate that the decoded information obtained from Russia will not be included in the case file, but will instead face the fate of so much other data that does not fit neatly into the preferred version of the investigation. It will probably just fall into a black hole, which is what happened to the photos of the tragedy that were taken by American spy satellites.

    In the meantime however, it will not be easy for the investigators to stick to their prescribed approach to the investigation. Independent experts are conscientiously suggesting new avenues of inquiry that could help move the process along.

    For example, since all of the Ukrainian army's existing launch sites for its Buk-M1 missile-defense system can be accounted for and examined by the commission, it would be a simple enough matter to establish whether at least one of them was used to fire the missile. An inspection of the 60 existing launch sites within this system is both physically possible and could provide some surprising information. The launch of a Buk-M1 missile leaves indelible "burns" on the ramp that cannot be concealed, even under a new coat of paint. Although that would seem to be a very simple suggestion, it's a significant one.


    Kees van der Pijl

    Kees van der Pijl, a Dutch professor in the Department of International Relations at the University of Sussex and the president of the NGO The Committee of Vigilance Against Resurgent Fascism, recently finished writing a book titled "The Launch: Flight MH17, Ukraine and New Cold War" (Der Abschuss: Flug MH17, die Ukraine und der neue Kalte Krieg). The German-language version of the book will go on sale later this month, and the English original and Portuguese translation will be available by the end of the year.

    Professor van der Pijl examines the tragedy from a geopolitical perspective and asks: who benefited most from this disaster? And he answers: the US, which subsequently imposed sanctions against Russia, undermining its gas industry and checking its growing role on the international stage.

    Specifically, the professor cites the following arguments:

    - One day before the tragedy, the BRICS nations signed an agreement to establish their own bank, which the US saw as a rival to the IMF and World Bank.

    - Vladimir Putin and Angela Merkel had settled on a new conceptual framework for resolving the crisis in Ukraine - without US input - and real progress was being made.

    - In addition, once the Boeing 777 was downed, American gas companies were suddenly able to find the traction to kick-start their work in Europe and force Russia out of the EU market. Moscow was forced to abandon the construction of the South Stream gas pipeline, and relations with the government in Kiev, which subsequently became a pawn in the games played by the West, definitively soured.

    Not a single European or American media outlet has reacted to the announcement of the book's publication and its path onto the shelves of bookstores is unlikely to be an easy one. However, times are changing, and many people are taking an interest in and flocking to Professor van der Pijl's blog, Der Abschuss Flug MH17, which provides information about the publication of the book as well as links to his sources.

    Using the materials available to them, the authors of the blog intend to shed light on the absurd inconsistencies evident during the investigation, as well as the investigators' stubborn reluctance to answer awkward questions. Some known examples are:

    - How could Ukrainian President Poroshenko, who announced the tragedy 15 minutes after it occured, have known that the Boeing 777 had been shot down by a Russian Buk missile?

    - Why does the investigative commission not take into account the results of the experimental destruction of a retired passenger airliner by the company Almaz Antey, while also refusing to take part in a second experiment?

    - What prompted Ukrainian dispatchers to alter MH17's flight path right before tragedy struck?

    We shall soon see whether officials will block the distribution of the book and what the consequences of that might be. But events could take an interesting turn. As a result of Professor van der Pijl's efforts, we will learn the price of not only the work of the Dutch commission investigating the tragic fate of flight MH17, but the European democracy and European justice as well...

    The publication is based on Dmitry Sedov's article by Strategic Culture Foundation (in Russian), adapted and translated by ORIENTAL REVIEW.


    Related:
    New Russian radar data shows no missile attack on MH17 from rebel side, indicates Ukraine involvement

    MH17 'truth enforcers' throwing West's version of events onto deceived public

    Russian aviation official: Moscow provided Dutch Safety Board with MH17 radar data but evidence was ignored
    Last edited by Hervé; 13th November 2017 at 12:34.
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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?



    MH17 crash: Ukraine pilot blamed by Russia 'kills himself'

    2 hrs ago ...19/3/18



    Capt Voloshyn pictured at Mykolaiv airbase in 2016

    A Ukrainian military pilot blamed by Russia over the 2014 downing
    of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 has killed himself with a pistol shot,
    Ukrainian media report, quoting police.

    Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn had condemned the Russian claim as a lie.
    Dutch investigators concluded that a Russian Buk missile had
    destroyed the Boeing 777 jet, killing 298 people.Reports say
    Voloshyn shot himself at home in Mykolaiv, near the Black Sea.

    Ukraine described him as a war hero.He had flown 33 combat
    missions in a low-flying Su-25 ground attack jet against
    Russian-backed separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine.

    read more...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43457694

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    What else does one expect from the BBC...

    On the other hand:

    Pilot suspected of shooting down MH17 commits suicide

    Inessa Sinchougova
    Fort Russ
    Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:25 UTC



    Ukrainian pilot Vladislav Voloshin, whom his colleague Yevgeny Agapov accused of involvement in the shooting down of Boeing 777 flight MH17, has committed suicide in Nikolaev.

    Please note that Western mainstream media are specifically running the story as "Pilot, who was accused by Russia..." The allegations came from his colleague, who then was forced to leave Ukraine for Russia.

    As reported by Ukrainian media, Voloshin shot himself from a Makarov pistol. Doctors tried to save the pilot, but he died in hospital.

    According to the relatives of the deceased, in recent days Voloshin was in a depressed state, spoke about troubles at work and expressed disturbing thoughts. A criminal case was instituted in accordance with Part 1 of Art. 115 Criminal Code "Intentional homicide" - this article was chosen because of the peculiarities of the investigation procedure.

    Since January 2018, Voloshin has headed the Mykolaiv International Airport. The previous director was detained while trying to bribe a governor, but the Ukrainian media repeatedly reported that he refused to sign illegal documentation. Voloshin signed these papers immediately after his appointment to the post of acting director.

    Two days after the MH17 disaster, Voloshin was awarded the Order of Courage of the Ukrainian air force. According to the testimony of Evgeny Agapov, who escaped to Russia, the Boeing 777 aircraft was allegedly shot down by an Su-25 of the Ukrainian Air Force, piloted by the aforementioned pilot:
    "A combat mission was carried out from an airfield in the city of Dnipropetrovsk."
    According to his testimony, he personally saw how Voloshin's aircraft was equipped with air-to-air missiles of the R-60 type before departure, which the Su-25 is not normally equipped with.


    Related:
    Could this be? Meet the pilot who shot down Malaysian Boeing MH-17
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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?




    MH17 missile owned by Russian brigade, investigators say

    24/5/18

    The missile that downed a Malaysia Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine in 2014
    belonged to a Russian brigade, international investigators say.For the first time,
    the Dutch-led team said the missile had come from a unit based in western Russia.
    All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in mid-air flying
    from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.It was hit by a missile fired from rebel-held
    territory in Ukraine. Russia says none of its weapons was used.

    But on Thursday Wilbert Paulissen, a Dutch official from the Joint Investigation Team
    (JIT), told reporters: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of
    the Russian armed forces." He restated the JIT's conclusion that the plane had been
    destroyed by a Russian-made Buk missile, adding that it had been supplied by the
    country's 53rd anti-aircraft brigade in Kursk.At a news conference in the Dutch city
    of Utrecht, the investigators also showed social media pictures which they said traced
    the route the missile convoy had taken to reach eastern Ukraine.

    read more....



    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44235402

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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    No Russian missile system ever crossed into Ukraine: MoD rejects Dutch MH17 claims

    RT
    Published time: 24 May, 2018 14:07
    Edited time: 24 May, 2018 16:08
    Get short URL


    FILE PHOTO. A piece of the wreckage at a crash site of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. © Maxim Zmeyev / Reuters

    The Russian Defense Ministry has rejected new claims that flight MH17 over Ukraine was downed by a missile from a Russian unit, urging the Dutch-led probe to focus on studying hard facts instead of social media images.

    “Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border,” the defense ministry said in statement.

    The Russian military raised eyebrows over “the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools.”

    The ministry pointed out that the images used in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) press conference on Thursday were provided by the Ukrainian special services and had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group, Bellingcat.

    The Dutch-led probe announced that the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in July 2014 came from a Russian military Buk system that crossed into Ukraine and then returned to its base in western Russia.

    Investigators claim the missile system involved came from “the 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia”. The JIT essentially just repeated the conclusion made by Bellingcat a year ago.

    The alarming part in the JIT probe is that “the Dutch investigators completely ignore and reject the testimony of eyewitnesses from the nearby Ukrainian communities”, according to the Defense Ministry. The testimonies, however, provided essential information “indicating the launch of a missile was carried out from a territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces.”

    The Russian side said that it provided the international probe with “comprehensive” evidence, including field tests, which “clearly indicate the involvement of the Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft system units” in the destruction of the plane with 283 passengers and 15 crew members onboard.

    The untampered radar data, which was also passed on by Russia to the Dutch-led investigation, “didn’t establish any aerial objects approaching the passenger Boeing from the western side,” it added.

    If the international investigating team is really interested in establishing the true culprits of the MH17 crash "its representatives should rely in their statements primarily on facts and witness testimony instead of products by fakemakers from Bellingcat or the SBU (Security Service of Ukraine),” the Defense Ministry concluded.

    With Russian military and authorities insisting they had nothing to do with the downing of MH17 on numerous occasions, Bellingcat’s reports have also been refuted by aviation experts, journalists and online activists.

    Among other things, Bellingcat’s claims that Ukrainian forces had no Buk systems in the conflict area in the east of the country were also overturned by a plethora of Ukrainian media reports, with photos of Kiev’s Buk systems in the region, provided by the online activists.

    The UK group’s assertion that the Buk missile was fired from an area controlled by the self-defense forces of the People’s Republic of Donetsk was also questioned as they were based on maps from the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian online map services, criticized for lacking accuracy.

    Meanwhile, the Dutch journalists, who visited the MH17 crash site last year, have raised questions about the thoroughness of the JIT probe as they said a lot of debris from the aircraft, and what they identified as body parts, remained uncollected by investigators. Suspicions were further raised after they had everything collected in eastern Ukraine, along with their cellphones and laptops, confiscated by the Dutch police shortly after returning to the Netherlands.


    Related:
    Accusations and threats, but where are the facts? – Russia challenges West on truth

    Dutch journalists criticize MH17 probe results after finding ‘many pieces’ still at crash site
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    Default Re: Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

    For once that the BBC reported something relevant... The British Ministry of Truth played the "now you see me, now you don't" game with it:


    Deleted BBC News report on MH17: Local witnesses of the incident believe fighter jets brought it down

    BBC
    Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:58 UTC




    Posted by Max van der Werff on Vimeo.




    Related:
    Why is Russia Being Blamed For The Downing of Flight MH17 - Again?
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