Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

[araucaria]

Posted by Billy (here)

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by Billy (here)
continued from my previous post:

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/2...e-flag-attack/

[...]

“According to the colonel, at 16:19:45 (local time, and 5:19pm Moscow time), a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively to allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades (currently pinned down by rebels) in the southern pocket by the Russian border.”

[...]

Well, unfortunate pun but that's 1/2 a hit for the Cs unless that colonel is also monitoring what the Cs have to say (or vice-versa):

If this was what actually happened and one of the Ukrainian jets hit one of the engines of MH17. Then i would say Ukraine at all costs would attempt to cover this up. Maybe as far as stupidly trying to swap an engine.

Thinking out loud here.

peace

Amzer, as I’ve said before, I do wish you’d stop quoting the Cs: it does not gell at all well with the fine forensic work you are doing on this and other threads. You hint at various links between what the colonel is saying and the Cs are saying; one also has to consider the likelihood that material channeled with a Ouija board that can be as reliable as it likes whenever it pleases, because it is getting all the info from the horse’s mouth, but is precisely for that reason not to be trusted. You are perfectly entitled to disagree, but this is why forum policy restricts channeled info to a section expressly calling on users’ personal discretion. Even if correct, it can only undermine the interesting things you have to say on a totally different level as you sift through the wreckage.
Peace

[Observer1964]

I wonder if it is a 777 lying there...

The engine of a 777 is about 10 feet, twice the size of a man
the engine lying in the field is half of that, and the fan is totally different, not only size and shape but even direction of rotation of the blades is different.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=qopnTeQUlUM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qopnTeQUlUM

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07...ng-777-engine/

[Cidersomerset]

The Propaganda and Politics of MH17

new Monday 28th July 2014 at 07:23 By david-icke



ACTIVIST POST.....

The Propaganda and Politics of MH17

Eric Draitser
Activist Post






‘The downing of Malaysian Airlines flight 17 (MH17) is a tragedy that will be remembered for years
to come. However, the way in which the West has distorted the facts about what happened is no
mere accident. Rather, it is a clear attempt by Washington and its allies and proxies to capitalize
on the incident, using it as a weapon in their continued belligerent and aggressive policies toward Russia.’

Recent days have seen a deluge of propaganda from both the US government and the Western
media (especially US media) which, despite being short on facts, has attempted to place the blame
for MH17 squarely on Russia and Russian President Vladimir Putin. While this certainly is no surprise
given the public demonization campaign of Russia throughout the conflict in Ukraine, it undoubtedly
crosses the line from laughable to utterly irresponsible and dangerous. Given the already icy relations
between the two countries, it seems that Washington has as part of its strategy the inflammation of
tensions.

But why? What does the US political establishment, which includes both major parties, hope to gain
from this tragedy? Or, perhaps more specifically, how does the United States plan to capitalize on the
incident? The propaganda, spin, and outright lies from Western media cannot be understood in a vacuum.
Rather, they must be recognized as part and parcel of the larger political agenda of the West both in
Ukraine, and Eastern Europe as a whole.

Lies, Damned Lies, and Western Media

Although the investigation into the crash has only just begun, that has not stopped Washington from
attempting to shape the narrative into an indictment of Russia, accusing Moscow of being behind the
attacks. Headlines such as White House Blames Russia For MH17 Crash, Saying There’s No Believable
Alternative (Huffington Post) and Congress: MH17 Crash Is ‘Ac of Terror,’ and Putin May Be To Blame
(The Daily Beast), both of which interestingly come from “liberal” media outlets, have become routine
in recent days. The not so subtle, indeed overt, implication of such headlines is that Russia is
responsible for the downing of MH17, despite there being no evidence to that effect.





Essentially, the US political establishment, and its corporate media appendage, attempted to make a flimsy
case into a politically expedient narrative that would bolster the US-NATO agenda in Ukraine, while
simultaneously legitimizing the belligerent, anti-Russian rhetoric and policies that the White House and
Congress have been pursuing. Moreover, Washington has attempted to use the incident to deflect attention
from the brutal war crimes and other embarrassing aspects of the US-backed Kiev regime’s horrific war
against the people of eastern Ukraine.

The specific lies, omissions, and distortions propagated by Washington and its dutiful media servants must
be recalled in order to debunk them, but perhaps more importantly, to demonstrate the clear and unmistakable
way in which they have been used to cobble together a false narrative that, despite being an admitted
fabrication, will be made permanent in the minds of many Americans.

The Kiev regime has proclaimed repeatedly that Russia was behind the attack, offering “evidence” of
“Russian participation.” The first piece of “evidence” were the tape recordings that purportedly provided
proof that anti-Kiev rebels and, by implication, Russian agents working with them, had admitted to
downing MH17. However, a careful analysis by renowned digital sound analyst Nikolai Popov and his
team of experts concluded that that the recordings were not authentic, that is to say, they were cobbled
together using various recordings from before the disaster occurred. As Popov noted, “This audio recording
is not an integral file and is made up of several fragments.”

While Popov’s team’s findings should not be taken as gospel, they do call into question the authenticity of
the supposed “evidence.” In fact, it is quite likely that the recordings were constructed from actual conversations
by anti-Kiev rebels discussing the downing of a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet days before the MH17 incident.
Of course, the findings should not be seen as definitive, but as yet, they constitute the only sound analysis
done of the recordings. It seems more than convenient that neither the US nor any of its partners have carried
such an analysis, and have instead chosen to proclaim the recordings’ authenticity based purely on faith that
Kiev is telling the truth. Naturally, this is a dangerous assumption considering the established pattern of lying
by Kiev to further its war against the citizens of the East.

Indeed, the regime in Kiev has lied its way throughout the last week with almost every statement and piece
of “evidence” it has provided. Yet another example can be found in the video the government released which
purportedly showed a Russian Buk missile battery with at least one missile missing moving in the direction of
Russia from rebel-held territory. Unfortunately for Kiev, the videos have been examined by many familiar with
the region and exposed as distortions insofar as they actually show the Buk systems in Kiev-controlled territory,
not rebel areas as Poroshenko & Co. have alleged. And so, with this information, it raises the question not only
of Kiev’s lies regarding Russian involvement, but also the far more sinister likelihood that it was, in fact, Kiev’s
military forces, whether under orders or simply through irresponsibility and negligence, that actually downed MH17.

Additionally, one must examine the claims made and repeated ad nauseam by Kiev that it had no military aircraft
in the skies when MH17 was shot down. From July 17 (the day of the incident) until July 21 (the day Russia’s Ministry
of Defense presented its intelligence), the Kiev regime continually denied allegations that its military aircraft were in
the vicinity of MH17. However, once Russia’s MoD provided the international press with evidence refuting that claim
and showing that not only were Ukrainian jets in the vicinity, but they were within firing range, magically that talking
point ceased to be repeated. In other words, every aspect of the Kiev regime’s narrative has been thoroughly discredited.

And so, by July 23rd, the media headlines which had, until that point, simply been reiterating the claims made by
Kiev and using “US assessments” (whatever that’s worth), began to finally admit that there is absolutely no evidence
directly tying Russia to the incident. So, the US State Department, along with nearly all major media, were exposed
as part of a comprehensive propaganda matrix designed to further US foreign policy aims, rather than report
information accurately and objectively. More to the point, just two days earlier, the US State Department made the
claim that it had the intelligence to “prove” Russian involvement but, when pressed by Associated Press journalist Matt
Lee, refused to provide any hard evidence, be it intelligence or reconnaissance imagery, to support their claims.

So once again Secretary of State John Kerry, and the entire State Department, have been made to look foolish in
their rush to accuse Russia of wrongdoing, as was the case with the Secretary of State regurgitating the discredited
claim of anti-semitic leaflets being handed out by anti-Kiev rebel forces.

The US media, like the State Department, obviously have egg on their face, as can be demonstrated quite clearly
by the NY Post headlines of July 22nd and July 23rd. On July 22nd, the Post printed on its cover the headline
“Dear Vlad – ‘Thank you…for murdering my loved and only child’”, followed less than twenty four hours later with
the headline “US: No direct link to Russia found in MH17 attack.” This sort of shameful propaganda, designed to
inflame anti-Russian sentiments, rather than report facts, is standard fare for US media and the corporate
interests it serves.

Washington’s Political Agenda

The attempts by the US and its allies and proxies to blame Russia for the downing of MH17 expose a transparently
cynical foreign policy in Ukraine, and Eastern Europe more broadly, that seeks to dominate and intimidate Russia
politically, economically, and militarily. Naturally, this strategy is doomed to fail as the Russia of 2014 is certainly
not the Russia of 1994. The MH17 episode is a case in point, showing just how the Washington and Kiev have tried
to capitalize on every opportunity to achieve strategic goals by demonizing Russia.

A close look at some of the statements from the State Department in recent days illustrates clearly the way in which
the Obama administration tried to leverage the disaster in order to buttress the failing war against the anti-Kiev
rebels in eastern Ukraine. US State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf indicated in a briefing with reporters
that the US asked Russia to demand that the anti-Kiev rebels “leave the region” in which the crash occurred so that an
investigation could take place. In other words, Washington seeks to use the MH17 investigation as a backdoor option
for Kiev to regain territory that it has been unable to conquer militarily; an undoubtedly, and quite despicably,
cynical ploy by the US.

But of course, the US is now trying to use the fact that Russia was not involved in the attack “directly” as a way for
Washington to drive a wedge between Moscow and the anti-Kiev rebels. By stating that Russia is not “directly”
responsible, Washington is attempting to put Putin in a corner by giving him the opportunity to exonerate himself and
Russia by abandoning the anti-Kiev forces, letting them hang to save his skin. Once again, it seems that the Obama
administration is grossly underestimating Putin’s resolve on the issue of Ukraine. It is quite clear that the Kremlin is
never going to allow a hostile regime that is publicly on the record as seeking NATO participation/observer status and
is outwardly hostile to Russia and ethnic Russians to dominate the whole country and create problems in the future.

Indeed, this issue of Putin’s resolve is central to understanding why Russia has been so assertive in Ukraine since the
crisis began. As Putin explained on July 22nd:

We shall provide an adequate and well-measured response to NATO’s expansion towards Russia’s borders, and we shall
take note of [the West] setting up a global missile defense architecture and building up its arsenals of precision-guided
weapons…No matter what our Western counterparts tell us, we can see what’s going on. As it stands, NATO is blatantly
building up its forces in Eastern Europe, including the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea areas. Its operational and combat
training activities are gaining in scale…The so-called competitive struggle at the international arena will imply the use
of tools in both economic and political fields. This will include the potential of security services, modern information and
communication technologies, and connections of dependent, puppet NGOs – the so-called soft power…apparently, some
countries regard it as democracy.

Such frank tough talk from Putin is a good indication of why the US regards him and Russia as the primary obstacle to its
goal of maintaining and extending US hegemony. Despite the US missile plans for Eastern Europe, the continued imposition
of punitive sanctions on key individuals and entities in Russia, the expansion of NATO and its attempt to absorb former
Soviet republics into its sphere of influence, and a host of other issues, Russia stands firm and undeterred. Whatever one
may think about Putin and his government, it’s quite clear that they are not going to succumb to the usual arm-twisting,
threats, blackmail, subversion or destabilization that the US employs to get its way. Perhaps this, at least in part, explains
why Putin is more popular in his country than any other leader in the world.

The downing of MH17 is a shocking tragedy. The dead should be mourned alongside the innocent eastern Ukrainians who
have also paid with their lives for the regime change operation that the US sponsored in Ukraine. However, beyond the
sorrow and despair engendered by MH17, the world should focus its attention on the political maneuvers that the US has
employed to capitalize on the tragedy and, in so doing, moving forward with its agenda of destabilization and aggression
against Russia. Washington’s belligerent policy is nothing new. However, the stakes have never been higher than they are today.

Eric Draitser is an independent geopolitical analyst based in New York City, he is the founder of StopImperialism.org and
OP-ed columnist for RT, exclusively for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook”, where this first appeared.



http://www.activistpost.com/2014/07/...7.html#!boBzv3

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Cidersomerset]

The BBC Deleted This Video as it Told the Truth About Flight MH 17

new Monday 28th July 2014 at 07:20 By david-icke

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zUvK5m2vxro

====================================================

Ukraine pushes back and takes at least three towns in three days off the pro-Russians
as Dutch MH17 monitors say crash site now too dangerous to investigate

new Monday 28th July 2014 at 07:16 By david-icke





‘Ukrainian armed forces mounted a major onslaught against pro-Russian separatists
today in an attempt to gain control over the MH17 crash site.

It marks a continuation of a days-long offensive which has led them to push back into
three towns in the rebel-held regions of Donetsk and Luhansk in the past four days,
while international investigators desperate to access to downed jet’s crash site pull
out for fear of being caught in the fighting.

On Thursday and Friday Ukrainian forces were pushing into the town of Lysychansk,
a strategic centre in Luhansk. Today there were reports that tanks rolled into
Shakhtarsk, just ten miles from the site, while Ukraine claimed to have surrounded
the rebel stronghold of Horlivka, both in Donetsk.’

Read more: Ukraine pushes back and takes at least three towns in three days off the
pro-Russians as Dutch MH17 monitors say crash site now too dangerous to investigate


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...dangerous.html

[Observer1964]

‘Ukrainian armed forces mounted a major onslaught against pro-Russian separatists
today in an attempt to gain control over the MH17 crash site.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me at all. I even think they would like to destroy the crashsite as much as possible...

[Cidersomerset]

Quote ‘Ukrainian armed forces mounted a major onslaught against pro-Russian separatists
today in an attempt to gain control over the MH17 crash site.
Somehow that doesn't surprise me at all. I even think they would like to destroy the crashsite as much as possible...

I think that is the aim they want to get control of it as soon as possible.
If not try to keep the investigators away. The initial false flag has not
worked as they wanted, although most western mainstream press are still
insinuating it was shot down by 'Russian backed Rebel fighters'..

When Russia called their bluff and are standing up to Washington/EEC
pressure. The Kiev regime are trying to cover their tracks.

[Hervé]

Posted by araucaria (here)
[...]
Amzer, as I’ve said before, I do wish you’d stop quoting the Cs: ....

Your opinion, araucaria... I'll keep mine since it is as reliable as any RVing, whether first or second hand.

[Agape]

I've had weird dream on today , to do with Malaysia . I've never been to Malaysia in this life not even in dream .
So I suppose there's a strong spirit connection to either or both of the recent crashes .

In the dream I was on way to Australia with stop in Kuala Lumpur , we've been travelling with another friend - girl - whom I barely knew , coming from India .
The atmosphere was extremely welcoming but somewhat of 'twin peaks' , I wonder if I've actually , rather , visited one of the 'bardos' , states where you go after passing away from this realm . I suppose it may be the case .
We were waiting at around the airport ( Kuala Lumpur ) for ages , the airport was almost empty .. as if all were called off somewhere and it had plenty of facilities ,
bars , even a swimming pool.
There was a group of us who came on the same plane , a small group and we were told we can do whatever we like , or go to countryside unless it's too far because flights seemed to be halted for few days .
There was a 'rasta man' with long dreadlocks taking care of me and the other girl ,
trying to be helpful though I remember I did not feeling it's fitting me really well - felt like a tourist - I'm not that one in real life at all .

There were clear light moments like playing with wild yet tame animals on a green lawn , there was a tiger and a snake and all were friendly ..

an underground ( tube train ) with very complicated lines and totally different way of getting to know when each train comes . Maps that looked like puzzles .

Now , the strange thing to the end that actually caught my attention ...

we wanted to go to see a place at a seacoast that was about 600 miles from the city and it would take us a day to get there ..and we were told we can't , that the area is 'off limit' .
The place was extremely spectacular sight .. high reef , a mountain slopes covered by green meadows descending almost vertically to water .. yet , there lived people on those meadows , plenty of people , like a little paradise ,
all colours of people , man and women , children , all very happy .. it was impossible to get to that side of place from anywhere.
Yet , we were watching them from 'another side' . They were building an arch like a gate , above the mountains , so huge that I started to feel dizzy watching the two pillars , not complete, rising to the sky ..

I am not sure what exactly it signified . The 'arch' looked like a memorial to me of people who passed away in accidents , yet .. it was not complete ..


Sorry Malaysia

[Cidersomerset]

'US 'proof' so unprofessional - social media propaganda' - Frmr WSJ Editor

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZrMG7VYnN8I

Published on 28 Jul 2014


The US State Department has released satellite images via email
which it says act as “evidence” that Russia is firing rockets at
Ukrainian troops across the border. READ MORE http://on.rt.com/rl57kp

[Cidersomerset]

In this article they show the diagram from what the guest in the
above RT report states is clearly false information.....

They have not head lined it just 'snuck' it in at the bottom,
to add weight for a later article possibly ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------








28 July 2014 Last updated at 12:26

Downing of MH17 jet in Ukraine 'may be war crime' - UN




Wreckage of MH17, 26 Jul 14 There are fears that some evidence at the crash
site may have been compromised as it was not protected



The downing of the Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine may constitute a
"war crime," the UN's Navi Pillay says.

Pro-Russia Ukrainian rebels and the Ukrainian authorities have accused each
other of shooting down flight MH17.

A Ukrainian official said on Monday that MH17's data recorders show it came
down due to "massive explosive decompression" caused by a rocket.

Meanwhile, heavy fighting has again prevented an international police force
from reaching the crash site.

The Ukrainian military said it was battling separatists for control of several
towns near the site in eastern Ukraine.

All 298 people on board the airliner - mostly Dutch - died on 17 July.

'War crime'




International police want to help secure the huge site so that plane wreckage
and human remains can be examined by international crash experts.

Most of the bodies have been removed, many of them repatriated to the Netherlands.

"This violation of international law, given the prevailing circumstances, may
amount to a war crime," Ms Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human
Rights, said of the downing of MH17.

"Every effort will be made to ensure that anyone committing serious violations of
international law including war crimes will be brought to justice, no matter who
they are," Ms Pillay said.

Ms Pillay spoke as the latest UN report on Ukraine suggested at least 1,129 people
have been killed and 3,442 wounded in the Ukraine conflict since mid-April.






Ukraine's army says it has advanced into the town of Shakhtarsk, near the crash site





The conflict has displaced more than 200,000 people, many of whom have fled
east to neighbouring Russia.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian security spokesman Andriy Lysenko told reporters on Monday
that recovered flight data showed the aircraft crashed due to a massive, explosive
loss of pressure after being punctured multiple times by shrapnel.

Flight MH17's two black boxes are currently being analysed by aviation experts in the UK.

Shelling

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he hoped monitors from the OSCE
international security body would be able to deploy on the Ukraine-Russia border
in the next few days.

In a statement on Monday, the Ukrainian military said it had "entered" the towns
of Shakhtarsk and Torez and was working to seize control of Pervomaysk and
Snizhne - all close to the crash site of MH17.

A man stands in rubble of a damaged house in Horlivka, Ukraine, on 27 July 2014.
Several civilians were killed in heavy shelling in the city of Horlivka over the weekend



A team of Australian and Dutch police and forensic experts abandoned attempts to
reach the site on Monday due to the security situation in the area. It was the second
failed attempt in as many days.

[IMG][/IMG]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76572000/jpg/_76572304_023324199-1.jpg

Fighting prevented a convoy of international forensic experts and police from entering the crash site

The army is also trying to take control of two main roads in eastern Ukraine, which the
government in Kiev believes to be vital supply lines from Russia for rebel forces in Donetsk.

In the past 24 hours there has been heavy artillery fire at the city of Horlivka,
where several civilians were killed.

In the city of Donetsk at least three people died in shelling too, the municipal
authorities say. And there are reports of civilian casualties as a result of the
shelling of Luhansk, which is also held by the rebels.

Last week, the US-based Human Rights Watch said both sides in the conflict
were using unguided Grad rockets against civilian areas, in violation of human
rights norms, and urged them to stop doing so. It documented several attacks
in which, it said, the rockets were apparently fired by government forces.

The US has produced what it calls satellite evidence that rockets have been
fired at Ukrainian forces from Russian soil.

Russia denies that any of its forces are helping the rebels.

Images from US state department purporting to show evidence of Russian firing
across the border into Ukraine, 26 July 2014 The US state department says these
images show where multiple rocket launchers have been used to fire from
Russia into Ukraine




The US state department says these images show where multiple rocket launchers
have been used to fire from Russia into Ukraine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28520813

[Cidersomerset]

Russian foreign minister says the west are trying to isolate Russia
and provoke her into sanction retaliations. He also says the charges
of Russia sending weapons across the border is false and they are
still waiting for an answer on the invitation to send independent
monitors to the border check points.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wrap-up: Lavrov on ‘containing Russia’, Ukraine & MH17 crash

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=K4kKQcTc-Ew

Published on 28 Jul 2014


Russia's Foreign Minister says the groundless allegations against Moscow over
Ukraine need to stop, but insists there will be no tit-for-tat response to any
Western sanctions. With a look at what else Sergey Lavrov had to say at a
media briefing - RT’s Marina Kosareva. READ MORE: http://on.rt.com/liin8m

[Cidersomerset]

New MK Ultra research ??? Thru DARPA to better organise propaganda techniches.....



===========================================

‘Creepy & Scary’: US military harnesses social media to manipulate online behaviour

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=08tWHpNCUto

Published on 26 Jul 2014


Privacy watchdogs are in uproar following revelations the U.S. government may
have been behind a recent Facebook experiment. Marina Portnaya reports.

RT LIVE http://rt.com/on-air

[araucaria]

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by araucaria (here)
[...]
Amzer, as I’ve said before, I do wish you’d stop quoting the Cs: ....

Your opinion, araucaria... I'll keep mine since it is as reliable as any RVing, whether first or second hand.

Not just an opinion, I also made a point that you are missing. I expressed the opinion to the effect that the fact that reliability can be manufactured may apply here. You are welcome to disagree, but not on the basis of reliability, which is not in dispute.

My point was that one reliable source can cancel out another. In a court of law, for a witness whose testimony coincides with all the available physical evidence, it would be advisable not to append his testimony by saying, ‘Moreover this was confirmed to me through someone’s Ouija board/RV session’. It is not an issue of reliability but of Occam’s razor. When you can make your case to the people you want to convince with elements that they can understand and accept, why bring up a technique that they are likely to consider makes you a totally unreliable witness? I am talking here about visitors to this site interested in hard evidence and turned off by all this other stuff. They are the people you need to convince.

That’s all.

[Operator]

Since there are also a few Dutch members participating in this thread and I did
not focus that very much on Dutch news I have a question to you all:

Did somebody catch the reason or an explanation why they sent Marechaussee
(= Dutch Military Police) to the crash site?

There are at least 2 other groups (civilian and military) that are perhaps better
suited for the job. I wonder if they gave an explanation ...

[jackovesk]

MH17 (7-25-14) ON WHISTLEBLOWER RADIO

MH17 interview with Mike Harris starts @ 49:00mins

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=WQNJdKcnGPI

PS - Can't tell you anything about this show, haven't listened to it yet..

[Hervé]

Anyway...

I found this in a Gordon Duff article:

It isn’t just the blogger amateurs that make things up. We are still faced with a bomb on a plane, put there in Schip(h)ol Airport. We now have evidence of “salted” wreckage being hauled in. This is the funny part, a real ground to air missile may, at best, put about a pound, two at max, of steel balls and small parts into a plane. Here is a quote from VT editor, Colonel James Hanke, an actual expert on air defense systems:

“From the examination of ‘recently found’ pieces of wreckage, it looks like they fired an ICBM at the plane, perhaps one with a 53 Studebaker strapped to the top. Blast patterns on what appears to be ‘salted’ wreckage indicates a warhead of several thousand pounds.”

This is way too dense of a strike pattern for a ground to air missle[sic]

[...]

I don't know who actually wrote that piece but it demonstrates that, that "expert" has the attention span of a sparrow and didn't even look at his evidence to assert: "Fake!" "Salted!"

Because, had that individual taken a close look at that piece of evidence, he would have seen this:

... which show that something popped OUT of the cockpit... that would be in favor of a bomb placed inside the plane... wouldn't it?


Then, I recalled something that would be definite but couldn't get my mouse on it until now; and that's this:

... which is also indicative of projectiles coming from the fuselage... but couldn't pinpoint from where... until I rediscovered this:

... which demonstrates that those shrapnel pieces came from ABOVE this piece of plane ((one wouldn't bother putting a "NO STEP" warning on the underneath side of a wing or a stabilizer... right?).

I still have to find out if the above is a piece of wing or a piece of tail... (Kiwielf?)

Then, the absence of shrapnel impacts on most other plane pieces and panels needs also to be accounted for...

So, AFAIC, a proximity-exploded Buk missile is ruled out!

[KiwiElf]

Hi Amzer Zo - like the engines question, I needed another reference by stepping back to get a bigger picture and you provided it ta! And for others who asked similar questions: All the photos I'd seen at that stage showed the internal impellor blades of the main engine core - which at first observation, were obviously too small to be the whole engine. The larger inlet turbine fan - the front of the engine (the 10.5 ft diameter blades) is mounted onto and in front of this "core". This appears to have been separated on the ground.

Now, your pictures above: The lower picture appears to be part of the wing (hence the NO STEP warning - and your observation is bang on - something scored the upper surface.

Oddly enough, your first three upper photos (can't tell what part of the plane this is - it appears to be the left side of the cockpit, hence the larger, squarer window framings - in which case, the pilot probably died instantly) - if we look closely, some of the larger holes are blown OUTward). These panels suggest the affect of at least two different types of weapon or explosion OR could be exit holes that have blown right through the fuselage and out the other side. The smaller peppering has come from an external direction inward against the panels. The damage appears to have come from multiple directions.

Your 4th photo - not sure - could be the very outer part of the wing, and from the red connection marking, if it's the wing, would likely be an under surface. (Sorry - I really need to see the whole thing zoomed out to be sure (or get myself up close to a 777 to identify these pieces).

So far, - until we know some more - I'm sticking to my belief that there was both an external missile (and if a fighter plane was involved, some possible strafing as well) and a bomb inside the aircraft. It almost appears that the attackers needed to bring it down in that area. The first attempt (missile and/or strafing) didn't achieve that.

[jackovesk]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

BBC Russia accidentally aired a truthful report about the HM17 crash, they have since deleted it. The problem with the report was that local people told they they had seen two fighter jets with the Malaysian Airline Boeing 777 MH17 and that it was one of these fighter jets that shot the HM17 down. Before they deleted it it was saved by watchful internet users and have now been uploaded many times to internet. Just like they did with the video were they claimed that the Salomon building (WTC7) had collapsed 20 minutes before it actually happened. That video have also been deleted from BBC's archives.

BBC Russia accidentally aired a truthful report about MH17 - The Video Report Deleted by the BBC - ENG SUBS

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zUvK5m2vxro

[KiwiElf]

Hmmm just like 9/11 Jack, the News Media are so clever at reporting events before they happen (deliberate sarcasm )

[Hervé]

Posted by KiwiElf (here)
[...]

Your 4th photo - not sure - could be the very outer part of the wing, and from the red connection marking, if it's the wing, would likely be an under surface. (Sorry - I really need to see the whole thing zoomed out to be sure (or get myself up close to a 777 to identify these pieces).

So far, - until we know some more - I'm sticking to my belief that there was both an external missile (and if a fighter plane was involved, some possible strafing as well) and a bomb inside the aircraft. It almost appears that the attackers needed to bring it down in that area. The first attempt (missile and/or strafing) didn't achieve that.

Hi KiwiELF,

Thanks for the contribution!

The last picture of my post is a close-up of the second last picture (4th picture) with the "NO STEP" sign being along the edge of the grayer area. The red sign reads "SAFETY LINE _ ATTACH POINT" and both are on the same side/ surface of the wing/stabilizer. However, if I look at the tail sections of the plane, there are no evidence of shrapnel impacts anywhere:

Same piece as above but now turned on its side from its previous upside-down position.


Rudder-fin/vertical stabilizer piece.

... which would tend to rule out that piece being part of a horizontal stabilizer and indicate it to be a piece of wing (but I could be wrong).

I attributed the peppered pieces (first 3 pictures) to the left side of the cockpit but it seems that both the right and left sides are symmetrical with respect to the painted lines... in any case it's one or the other.

The trouble I have with the "inbound impacts" is that they could also be due to to the ground explosion and/or to impact with ground obstacles... rocks, etc... which makes it difficult to distinguish from true missile shrapnel-impacts.

Considering the Russian published evidence of a surface-air missile having been launched at that time, it would make sense that all eventualities to shoot down that plane were considered and applied and I would agree that both missiles and bomb(s) were used:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iPNfpWScXGM