Illusion of Meditation

[Maunagarjana]

Posted by joeecho (here)

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
Look, I will let scientific studies speak for themselves. It's only part of the picture, but it should provide people with some clues at least.

In general.......

It's interesting how people will support 'scientific studies' when it backs up their dogmas on a subject but will tear a 'scientific study' apart when it doesn't.

Humans are funny.

What would you rather base your views on.....imaginative suspicions? Look, I don't have any dogmas, I have experience. I don't have to believe in the efficacy of meditation. I know it, because I live it.

[Flash]

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)

Posted by joeecho (here)

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
Look, I will let scientific studies speak for themselves. It's only part of the picture, but it should provide people with some clues at least.

In general.......

It's interesting how people will support 'scientific studies' when it backs up their dogmas on a subject but will tear a 'scientific study' apart when it doesn't.

Humans are funny.

What would you rather base your views on.....imaginative suspicions? Look, I don't have any dogmas, I have experience. I don't have to believe in the efficacy of meditation. I know it, because I live it.

The guy who wrote and spoke in this video had had least ten years of meditation, he knows too what it does. And does not deny what you say. He just uses critical thinking plus sensory experience with it. My bet is you have not even listened to the video.

Marin, what is in the video does not contradict the heartmath institute findings, on the contrary, it seems, in my views, to enhance it, to be a complement to it. Yes, body and brain have to participate to the enlightenement process, from the video.

[Maunagarjana]

Posted by Flash (here)

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)

Posted by joeecho (here)

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
Look, I will let scientific studies speak for themselves. It's only part of the picture, but it should provide people with some clues at least.

In general.......

It's interesting how people will support 'scientific studies' when it backs up their dogmas on a subject but will tear a 'scientific study' apart when it doesn't.

Humans are funny.

What would you rather base your views on.....imaginative suspicions? Look, I don't have any dogmas, I have experience. I don't have to believe in the efficacy of meditation. I know it, because I live it.

The guy who wrote and spoke in this video had had least ten years of meditation, he knows too what it does. And does not deny what you say. He just uses critical thinking plus sensory experience with it. My bet is you have not even listened to the video.

I can't speak for every spiritual tradition that uses meditation, but critical thinking and sensory experience is an important part of Buddhist instruction (which is the tradition I am most influenced by). So, that I don't disagree with him about really.

Marin, what is in the video does not contradict the heartmath institute findings, on the contrary, it seems, in my views, to enhance it, to be a complement to it. Yes, body and brain have to participate to the enlightenement process, from the video.

What I have a problem with is this guy seems to be saying that meditation is about being programmed and controlled, when that is the very antithesis of what it results in. You don't need meditation to program and control people. You need the absence of it.

[Wind]

Personally all I can say that I have an overactive mind which can be exhausting. I tend to analyze everything inside out! Meditation has helped me to relax and become a more loving, compassionate and peaceful human being. Yet, there is still much more self-inquiry awaiting for me.

"Among the values of meditation is that it carries consciousness down to a deeper level, thus letting man live from his centre, not his surface alone. The result is that the physical sense-reactions do not dominate his outlook wholly, as they do an animal's. Mind begins to rule them. This leads more and more to self-control, self-knowledge, and self-pacification."

Finally meditation is essential for every man because without it he lives at too great a radius from his divine centre to understand the best thing which life can offer him. He must reclaim the divine estate of which he is the ignorant owner. O! it is worthwhile to make this sacred incursion and attain, for a time, a nobler and wiser state of himself. By this daily act of returning into himself, he reaffirms his divine dignity and practises true self-respect.

Spirituality is within. If one does not feel it, then one needs to search deeper, beneath the weaknesses, faults, passions, and desires of the ego. It is still there, but the search must be properly made. This is where help can be found, in the words of those who have already found it.

- Paul Brunton

[MargueriteBee]

What comes to mind is the spiritual group I got to know up in Washington. When the students would complain that the copyrighted spiritual practices were not working, the answer was always it is your fault, you are not doing them correctly, pay more. Some of those folks would never dream of doing anything without the teacher's permission, some even marrying who they were told to, etc.....

[MargueriteBee]

Thank you all for your posts. I value your knowledge and opinions that is why I posted this interview. I am thinking that forced meditation is of no value to me. I prefer my natural style of contemplation. I can come to great insights just watching those thoughts go by when on a walk or decorating cookies, etc. I will never feel guilty for not meditating ever again.

I consider all the New Age Gurus out there and feel very suspicious. We know a lot are fake and they control and hurt people. Be careful, look around, open your eyes to the deception being played on you... Believe nothing. Question everything, everyone.

I want to hear more...

[aheb]

When I was a kid I would go off on my own and sit on a wall of the village pub, if there were no friends about I could sit for hours, just watching, listening and being calm. When my friends came calling, if I wasn't in my mum would say " Go and look at the wall" and sure enough, there I'd be.
I grew up, read loads of books about religion, meditation, yoga, martial arts....and did a lot of them, especially yoga and martial arts........I came across a lot of charlatans, anybody remember Tuesday Lobsang Rampa? or DR. Paul Brunton? LOL

and a lot of unknown charlatans Aikido masters etc.....and of course I tried meditation........I've had psychic experiences since childhood, but meditation never brought me anything. A couple of years back when I thought I might die I went to the local cathedral and I sat there and did like I did on the pub wall and felt calmed, but now I do it in forests, in pubs wherever I happen to be......I didn't need meditation, my method was so much better, and it's not my method, just sit and watch and listen, let things go by on there own, tune into the calm of the forest the gentleness of the rain, coldness of snow..no masters or gurus.. Consider if something is there, then it will eventually show itself.

[Skyhaven]

Posted by MargueriteBee (here)
Thank you all for your posts. I value your knowledge and opinions that is why I posted this interview. I am thinking that forced meditation is of no value to me. I prefer my natural style of contemplation. I can come to great insights just watching those thoughts go by when on a walk or decorating cookies, etc. I will never feel guilty for not meditating ever again.

I consider all the New Age Gurus out there and feel very suspicious. We know a lot are fake and they control and hurt people. Be careful, look around, open your eyes to the deception being played on you... Believe nothing. Question everything, everyone.

I want to hear more...

You don't really have to link meditation itself to the practice of certain gurus. Like I wrote before the concept of meditation is not that strict at all. It is really just a tool that can be of service. If the tool at first doesn't work for you you can tweak it at will. I like to visualize and keep focus on a certain mental image, try the create more detail within that image. If you seek guidance from any authorative figure, you are going to be controlled to some degree in the negative to postive spectrum. If the guru guidance starts to drift off from what your heart says what you want to do with the tool, take the tool and leave.

[Maunagarjana]

Posted by MargueriteBee (here)
What comes to mind is the spiritual group I got to know up in Washington. When the students would complain that the copyrighted spiritual practices were not working, the answer was always it is your fault, you are not doing them correctly, pay more. Some of those folks would never dream of doing anything without the teacher's permission, some even marrying who they were told to, etc.....

There are a lot of cultish groups that teach some half assed form of "meditation". In that environment, the meditation might not do someone much good and could be counterproductive, which is sad. The word meditation is so vague, it could mean anything from contemplation, to deep relaxation, to focusing on certain objects of mind, and so on. When I say it, I mean something maybe someone else doesn't. I mean Vipassana or Insight Meditation, which is a particular approach that comes with a large body of teachings, including all the pitfalls. I'm sure I could study the meditation practices of many groups that out there and find all sorts of short comings, not only in the practice but in the teachers.

[Daughter of Time]

I have watched the entirety of the video but I'm not going to comment on the video itself but on my own experiences and conclusions.

I have meditated on and off since I was 20 years old and that was a number of years ago. The experiences have sometimes been beneficial and sometimes extremely unpleasant.

The beneficial experiences left me with a sense of calm, peace, unity, love and feeling that all was well in the world even though I fully realized that all was not well in the world - all felt well in my own personal world.

The unpleasant experiences left me with a feeling that some part of my essence had been stolen from me. After coming out of these meditations I felt off-balance, dizzy, nauseous, and worse of all, as if I'd lost part of me.

Why the discrepancies? Ultimately, I don't have a true answer, but I will continue...

Just over 2 years ago I was listening to a number of webinars about meditations and I listened to the meditations that they presented, that one could buy and own, etc., and didn't like many of them except one. This one particular meditation left me feeling so elated I was almost euphoric - again - all is well with the word type of feeling. I purchased the meditation and did it religiously twice a day: upon arising and at bedtime.

After a few weeks of doing is this daily I had an experience one night which was beyond devastating:

I am an abductee and have had horrific experiences with some unfriendly beings out there but hadn't had a truly horrible experience for a long time until immediately after the above mentioned meditation. Now, I'm not blaming the meditation because it could have been coincidence, but this meditation which was supposed to be grounding, balancing and protective of malevolent energies proved to be everything but! I had a truly devastating experience after this meditation.

I did not meditate again after that!

A couple of weeks after the above mentioned horrific experience I felt still very much affected and pretty much unable to function so I ended up spending time in front of the TV to try to dull my senses. I turned on the TV one night and it happened on the History channel where a presentation on ancient art was just beginning. I felt that would be a suitable thing to watch.

A number of these very ancient Tibetan and Vedic paintings exhibited people meditating and above each meditator there was a UFO! This shocked me! The presentation concluded that meditation was brought down to Earth by ETs as a means of communicating with them - and it would make a lot of sense after looking at those paintings!!!

It is totally conceivable that meditation was brought here by benevolent ETs who wanted to help humanity and this is how they established the means of communication. But as we know from religions, many of them were started with good intent but were soon infiltrated by the other side.

I'm not saying I will never meditate again, but if I do, I'll be very aware of what enters my consciousness because I don't trust it after my experience of 2+ years ago.

Many have said that meditation has been their salvation. I don't disbelieve it. But as we know, one person's garbage is another person's treasure; or is it - one person's medicine is another person's poison...

[Maunagarjana]

Meditation, if done right, is not just about feeling good, calm, relaxed, but about seeing through layer upon layers of illusions to the true nature of things. People must realize that these states of mind have been mapped out very thoroughly over thousands of years by people who have devoted their lives to meditation. Sincere seekers who would accept no substitutes for the clear, undiluted truth.

Many times people have a difficult meditation experience and give up on it, but if they would only persist with determination and not dwell on their expectations of wanting it to be one thing or another thing, it will change, and you will be able to see through such experiences. The solution to most of the problems people encounter with meditation is more meditation, and to have detachment from the various things that are coming up in the meditation, because they are illusions. There is a name for these illusions in Buddhist traditions, in Zen they call it "makyo" and in Tibet they call it "nyam".

[Omni]

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
What I have a problem with is this guy seems to be saying that meditation is about being programmed and controlled, when that is the very antithesis of what it results in. You don't need meditation to program and control people. You need the absence of it.

Certain meditations and self reflection do serve to limit in ways options mind controllers have or at least can expose things not aligned to yourself. But they can also control you once you are meditating as well. There is certainly nothing to stop them from doing such. The US gov is advanced enough to control meditative states. Even give people amazing experiences with meditation if they have an agenda to. They keep track of people's minds these days. They can observe people meditate and record such and give the same to other people. It is a fallacy that lack of meditation is needed to control though...

I generally think meditation is not something TPTB want prominent though.. It is powerful at times.

[RunningDeer]

When meditation is defined as 'simple awareness', it assists to clear away enough of the false so we can discover and advance our natural gifts.

I’d add here that ‘simple awareness’ is understated and not so simple.

RunningDeer <3

[RunningDeer]

Delete off topic.

[TraineeHuman]

There is such huge misunderstanding about what true meditation is. Let me give you one example. The truth is, (genuine) meditation is way too radical to involve methods. Any methods will just be the (conceptual, ordinary) mind trying to overcome and rise above the (conceptual, ordinary) mind. That will always result in failure. Most people who try to learn to meditate fall into this trap initially, and many never get past it. Yes, as far as I've seen, most who try meditation end up failing, even for this one reason alone. That's a fact, I'm sorry to say. (Meditation really involves anti-methods, but if you conceptualize about them, that turns them into methods, and then you're dead, buster.)

The (ordinary) mind, the ego, the dark side -- that has to be completely left behind. You have to use something completely other than that mind -- which is tough, because initially and for a long time it's precisely what you identify as "you". It's not the real you, but for many it takes years of work before someone knows that. In the meanwhile, you can't succeed unless you're willing to dissolve, and ultimately obliterate, everything you believe or consider to be you. Are you willing to be radical enough to do that? This is where we separate the sheep from the goats, I'm afraid. Are you willing to admit that at the beginning virtually everything about "you" at an inward level is false? If you are, then you'll be able to take action inwardly and do whatever it takes -- not less than everything -- to dissolve that false self. And I guarantee you'll be blissfully happy and inwardly at peace in your ordinary everyday life if you do.

It's quite challenging to explain this in words, because I need any reader in their understanding to rise beyond the conceptual level -- the level of words -- and penetrate to the meanings they are pointing to, meanings which lie at a higher level than that. Look, and experience it through the peaceful stillness.

[Delight]

I listened to the video.

He is very cerebral and focused on "thinking" and cognitive processes that are active IMO. IMO he is biased towards "wake and alert" beta consciousness.

Meditation occurs in the realm of mind and awareness.To understand what meditation is, a common
ground of mind and awareness needs to be established.
A few things need to be in place for mind and awareness to be present.We need a faculty to collect data from
the world; we need to be able to be aware of this data; and lastly we need to be able
to reflect upon the data collected.

IMO mediation is a different brain state that yields information from the deep mind. Meditation is passive and in my experience it is deeply restful to sit without thinking. Interestingly answers to "problems" and new ideas arise from meditative contemplation. Scientists and inventors like Henry Ford who just sat in his rocking chair to "get ideas" benefit from a relaxed state of mind.

Meditation is an internal focus from various methods that has its own consciousness state that can be observed by EEG as in delta and theta brain patterns. It is a shift away from the "external reality".

The main purpose of meditation is to remove your attention from the environment, your body, and the passage of time so that what you intend, what you think, becomes your focus instead of these externals. You can then change your internal state independent of the outside world. (Joe Dispenza)

Whatever might be facilitated about meditation by some agencies does not mean meditation is not useful? IMO he assumes that the brain states of meditation are negative like a psychosis and people use it from a feeling of impoverishment of some kind?

He says we don't need meditation because:

You are not broken, asleep or powerless. There is not something “out there” to be found through meditation.
The process towards the distinction between self and world is a natural process which you do not need “to do”.
It happens of its own accord.This process is only the initial phase which pertains to the senses. the intellect, through critical thinking,is the next necessary iteration. It can’t be ignored. The suffering which you are attempting to reconcile is one end of a spectrum. The other end is what you seek.
they are two ends of the same thing - information being processed into consciousness.
There is nothing inherently wrong, nothing to attain, nothing to do. You already have, and always have had, everything you need.

A sincerity behind your desire to know truth is the only limiting factor. Ask what - when enough data is collected the why appears,
Then ask why - when you understand, the how becomes evident.

He definitely did not give me a compelling argument. IMO it is pleasurable and feels refreshing at the least to be in a body relaxed but mind alert state (not sleep) where one is internally focused.

Then of course there are other profound aspects of meditation that other posters have accessed but I have not so can't comment on.

[Rich]

Meditation can be pretty much anything in my dictionary, for example what aheb and MBee said is meditation to me,
but they say it is not, so it's a matter of definition...

Meditation is neither good nor bad just a neutral tool that can be used for any purpose and what we get out of it is determined by our attitude.

[Highwhistler]

Posted by MargueriteBee (here)

Who has watched the video?

I have.

No joke:
I'm probably one of
the only people in the whole
world who watched, listened to,
and contemplated the
entire 2hr 8min
presentation

First impression:

Good grief?
This dude is a chatter box

His POV is certainly welcome to exist
and it is absolutely equal to yours,
mine ... and of course everyones'
point of view

But, I do feel that the guy who
is being interviewed would benefit
by falling into true love with the
Silence of the Universe, first, before
he attempts future meditations
with a pure beginner's mind

Meditation is indeed
about attempting to understand,
to experience, to describe, and to
let go of the sensual-psychic-
thought-feeling-memories
and imaginative movies
that are presented
before us,
but
it's also about
discovering through
first hand, repeatable esperiences,
the nature, abilities and identity of we (the entities)
who directly and continually experience
the rise of, the life cycles, and the
disappearances of conscious
"materials" that appear
before our
gaze

Personally, I sense that
magic mushrooms, ayahuasca, peyote
could help free his Presence
from the endless
yada-yada-yada
of his mind

Best of all
a good, fully awake
out of body experience
will greatly assist in expanding
his beliefs regarding the nature,
abilities, identity and source
of the Presence

Otherwise
I do believe that he
will continue describing
the intellectual trance
that he, personally,
is experiencing
and he will believe
his views are true for
One and All

That is, I believe,
he assumes that there
cannot possibly be,
simultaneously existance
of equally valid truths
that are realized by the
infinitely diverse beings
who are equal in every way
to him

I sincerely appreciate
his understanding that the
teacher-student relationship
is temporary and often a scam.
That "spiritual teachers" have used
the teacher-student relationship as a
contrived hierarchy that the teachers are
lead actors in, and they have little interest
in truly helping to set free their students
-- psychically-energetically-&-spiritually --
because the teachers know that if
they were to succeed, they would
undoubtedly & instantly
be out of a job.

And even more
shocking for the teachers:
they would have to admit that
they have always been on
the same spiritual level
as all of us

[waves]

Wow, this thread is such an example of so many in the so called alternative community turning into the kind of people they say are the problem. "I didn't watch it but I know it's wrong, here's a gazillion links that prove MY THINKING."

I'm seeing this more and more at Avalon. Not really taking the time to understand , and attacking something they know nothing about in defense their precious belief system.

I watched the whole thing, I think he made some excellent points that are applicable in many cases of people deep into the meditation world, of course not all. But this exact belief-system latching-on behavior in the new age community was emphasized at length in this interview. The a-ha moments that make your brain think it's found 'it', gets a big emotional relief and won't let go, therefore shutting itself down to further expansion and growth.

I learned a lot about the exact mechanism of how my brain-mind-emotional perceptions work together and how to stay objective. I will still be applying the meditative concept in my daily life of stopping worthless chatter and not going for a ride on my own emotional reactions.

[wnlight]

Here are three points that I must make about meditation.

1) Keep it simple. Just sit in a quiet place - preferably the same place and time of day. They tell you to relax because you will sit there for a while.

2) About the "clearing your mind and NOT allowing ANY thoughts to enter into it" Don't worry when thoughts do enter your mind. They will. It's OK as long as you do not follow them. Simply bless each thought that comes to mind and then ignore it. I believe that these pop-up ideas are from your ego fighting the meditation process.

3) All the good things that you have read about meditation will come to you in due time, if you wish. But time is a factor. It could easily take many months before you feel anything beyond simple relaxation. Maybe you will progress faster than me. Most people stop meditating because of impatience. I did, and then had to start again.

Daughter of Time, If you decide to try meditation again, ask your guardian angel to protect you before you start. Forget the CD. Just sit and meditate.