Illusion of Meditation

[MargueriteBee]

I've often wondered why I don't like to meditate.....

http://theosophywisdom.wordpress.com...ting-nonsense/

Bill Joslin at an early age developed a fascination with mind and awareness. Subsequently he spent 16 years studying Bonpo, Nyingma Buddhist and Taoist practices. He spent a year in Asia interviewing Buddhist monks in Laos, Cambodia, Nepal; Taoist practitioners in Indonesia, and Bonpo priests in Northwest Nepal, comparing practices as taught in the west with the original monasteries and traditions from which the teachings originated. Nine years ago, Bill was asked by a number of people to counsel them with mediation practices they were having difficulty with and not finding aid from their current teachers. From a sense of responsibility Bill then went through a process of questioning every aspect of meditative knowledge he had gained over those years, essentially applying critical thinking to spiritual practices. In short order the illusion of meditation, spiritual teachers, and philosophical frameworks dissolved and a concise, non-mystical view of mind, self and world emerged with simple clarity. Meditation and spiritual guru-ship is an ancient form of control, the residue of which we live with today.

[Skyhaven]

Meditation is an abstract word of a subjective experience that has different meaning for different people and passing judgement on that seems kind of foolish to me, but then again it is an abstract word so if anybody wants to define it as an illusion they actually can!

[RunningDeer]

In the 1970’s, I participated in meditation groups. Some involved chants, others involved no mind, others I left because the critical part of me was greater than any benefit.

Then in 1988, I began Tai Chi. I’ve broken all the rules to fit what works for my body and mind. So for me, it’s a moving meditation with a goal of whatever the form presents in the moment: silence, ‘no body-no-mind-only-movement’, heart expansion, one with all, etc.

Mediative activities include reflection, arts, walks, Native American flute, etc.

<3

[Xanth]

I haven't watched the 2 hour video, however, defining experiece with three parameters, mind, self and world seems a little restrictive to me.
I do meditate, and its one thing I would never give up, as for me its a doorway to whatever I want to explore.

[sdv]

For me, personally, meditation is about finding a central point of being that is a place of non-judgmental, unattached equanimity so that I can surrender to and experience whatever is happening in the moment. It is so challenging for me to even try this practice. Do I surrender all potential and hope for any influence over my life and others' lives? Do I surrender all attempts to control my life and influence others?

What do we seek and find in meditation? And how does meditation influence our lives and the lives of others? How does the meditation practice of the Dali Llama affect the world? If his meditation and spiritual practices are helping to make the world a happier and more joyously creative place for humanity and all living beings, then we are all in a very troubled space in this universe!

Why do we meditate? What effect does meditation have for our individual lives and for the lives of others? Why have good spiritual leaders (such as the Dali Llama, Pope Francis and Archbishop Tutu, plus many others) not changed the progress of humankind from greedy self interest to benevolent progress for all?

I don't know the answers nor do I have the key to a practice that will funnel creative energy in a loving and kind way for all humanity, but all I can do is to use meditation to find and return to the centre of equanimity within myself and thus find peace within the chaos (but it still feels like giving up for me)

Meditation brings the peace that comes from unconditional surrender, but it does not fuel the creativity of change and experience that is fuelled by desire and authenticity in our personal journey through life.

The energy of life does not discriminate and thus each human being can draw fro that energy and do what ever she/he chooses to do with it. Perhaps meditative practice is holding humanity back from complete descent into mindless savagery or maybe meditation makes no difference.

I just know, from experience, that meditation has no effect on my life other than to enable me to surrender to circumstances with equanimity and to thus also surrender to accepting rather than desiring to change what is in my life.

[joeecho]

Posted by Skyhaven (here)
Meditation is an abstract word of a subjective experience that has different meaning for different people and passing judgement on that seems kind of foolish to me, but then again it is an abstract word so if anybody wants to define it as an illusion they actually can!

Well put Skyhaven.

I remember when words like meditation used to trip me up like they were otherworldly endeavors. I believe that most likely everyone has meditated if only for a moment here or there though not identifying it as such.

The negative or beneficial aspects of meditation are, like anything, debatable. I suppose the test would be if you could play the hindsight game. And since I do not have that ability, I play with the hand I have. Of the cards in my hand, one that I have is meditation and I am most pleased to have it. I consider it the 'ace in the hole'. If there is a better card, I have not seen it.

[MargueriteBee]

Who has watched the video?

[Davidallany]

The practice of concentration with the goal of obtaining insight into the nature of things among other goals has many steps and is named in Pali and Sanskrit according to those steps.
However it is simply known as meditation or self-reflection in English, which is not very accurate. In my experience, meditation is something that is important for understanding, generating compassion, wisdom and realization. Scientology is another way of quickly attaining higher states of consciousness, it is faster than your regular meditation.
Some people because of misunderstanding of the true circumstances believe that because they have more knowledge or power, are entitled to call the shots, punish and do many immoral things without repercussions.
The root of the problem is intellectual awakening as opposed to spiritual awakening. The intellectual awakening is not necessarily helpful to the spiritual awakening.
Synchronicity makes it possible for those who focus their energies to reach their goal, no matter how many misleaders, cheaters and abusers they encounter along the road. Many battles can be lost, but the war will eventually be won because of the deep insight and security of the light bearers.

[TraineeHuman]

The heart of meditation is the mastery of going quite beyond the conceptual mind and the ordinary world of the senses -- and then the rising into deeper/higher/fuller states of consciousness that lie beyond it. That rising builds a foundation for true and full freedom and self-mastery.

In many traditions and schools it was considered necessary for the individual to learn to live very ethically and in a genuinely balanced and un-selfindulgent way before they were considered ready to even begin to learn meditation. So, the whole thing has many stages or steps.

True meditation involves learning to have very skillful insight into what's true, at the most important level. But even more, it's then a matter of living the truth. The value of meditation lies in what one takes into the world of one's ordinary life. If there's no fruit, what's the point?

My criticism of the man in the video is that he hasn't gone back to more ancient sources, particularly Ch'an Buddhism of the fourth to sixth centuries and the sages of the Upanishads, Gitas and Vedas. As far as I understand, these had the fullest understanding, and those who came later weren't up to that "standard".

More specifically, my criticism is that his theory of how perception and "attention" and "reality-testing" and "experience" and so on work seems to be based entirely on how the ordinary mind and senses work. But that's not how things work in the deeper/higher/fuller states of consciousness, not at all. It's mostly irrelevant to true meditation, as far as I can see. He might be advised to study some comparative philosophy, or read, say, some of the Vedas and Upanishads and find a way of understanding some of their contents from a point of view other than the very materialistically-based (and anti-spiritually based) version of psychology that he seems to presuppose is the truth. You can only fill up your glass with something new if you empty it, rather than having such heavily materialistic presuppositions that you presumably have no interest in letting go of. Great video, though.

[joeecho]

Posted by MargueriteBee (here)
I've often wondered why I don't like to meditate.....

I think I am getting a glimpse at what you are driving at here. But if not, I did receive an insightful glimpse under this topic nevertheless.

Meditation is a tool and like any tool it can be used towards a goal. Some goals are constructive and some goals are destructive and thus the tool was used in the like manner. Just like a blade can be use to reap a food harvest or for murder and mayhem. There is also the idea that someone can believe their intentions are good, having developed them from even the likes of a renowned meditative discipline, but ultimately they are not good intentions and thus bears false fruit.

[wnlight]

When performing Tai Chi, I certainly was is a meditative state. No Doubt. I use sitting meditation to connect to my higher self. With that, I feel the flow of energy into my body. I also receive information that way. However, many times the answers come to me a little while after the meditation session. Also, meditation is a good means of relaxation whether via Tai Chi, walking, or sitting.

[Flash]

Posted by MargueriteBee (here)
I've often wondered why I don't like to meditate.....

http://theosophywisdom.wordpress.com...ting-nonsense/

Bill Joslin at an early age developed a fascination with mind and awareness. Subsequently he spent 16 years studying Bonpo, Nyingma Buddhist and Taoist practices. He spent a year in Asia interviewing Buddhist monks in Laos, Cambodia, Nepal; Taoist practitioners in Indonesia, and Bonpo priests in Northwest Nepal, comparing practices as taught in the west with the original monasteries and traditions from which the teachings originated. Nine years ago, Bill was asked by a number of people to counsel them with mediation practices they were having difficulty with and not finding aid from their current teachers. From a sense of responsibility Bill then went through a process of questioning every aspect of meditative knowledge he had gained over those years, essentially applying critical thinking to spiritual practices. In short order the illusion of meditation, spiritual teachers, and philosophical frameworks dissolved and a concise, non-mystical view of mind, self and world emerged with simple clarity. Meditation and spiritual guru-ship is an ancient form of control, the residue of which we live with today.

This is an incredibly good interview - i listened to the whole 2 hours, he is intelligent, has definite critical thinking, knows the meditation practices Inside out, and has, within 2 hours, changed my paradigms about meditation, religions, control mecanism and brain functions.

Many thanks Marguerite Bee, you found a pearl

What i retain mainly is that enlightenment is not an exclusive thing for meditator or religious people. It is something natural to everyone, we just have to stop blocking it with all kinds of practices that are pushing us away from truth and enlightenement, rather that helping us into it.

What I also retain is that control over our thinking comes with the lack of knowledge we have about our own mind functions, which is used by those wanting to control, be it accidental or implement willfully thousands of years ago.

Have this awareness of how you function and even meditation could probably be helpful then.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=LMQNV8D0ueQ

[ghostrider]

True meditation is simple , clearing your mind and NOT allowing ANY thoughts to enter into it ... The power of your consciousness can be tapped once outside forces , stray thoughts , sounds , and any external interferences are blocked out , you breathe and be in the nameless nothing as a sentient spirit form ...

[Marin]

Posted by MargueriteBee (here)
Who has watched the video?

Yes, I have. The entire video.

For those that don't have the time - here's a link to the PDF of his notes. A quick read.
http://dbgak.net/Presentation.pdf

Honestly, there were some interesting points he made but as I listened through the entire video my interest started to fade.

In the end, he said this when asked how he came to his findings:
"I saw a way out of this because I had a sincere desire to know reality and truth. You need to question what you're doing. All it takes - If you want to know reality, the truth -> Sincerity - To ask "what" first - when enough data has been collected, then the "why" becomes evident, then the "how" becomes evident. It needs to be in order ->grammar, logic, and rhetoric.

Honestly, I'm feeling there might be a bit more to it than that.

When asked what is the single most important concept you want people to walk away with?

"I want people to ask questions in the right order. The ability to use your own mind."

Here's the thing, at an intuitive level, I need to FEEL myself through these experiences. The mind, although an important piece, comes second to my intuition and feelings. There is science to back this up. I'm not sure we can simply think our way out of this.

"Many believe that conscious awareness originates in the brain alone. Recent scientific research suggests that consciousness actually emerges from the brain and body acting together. A growing body of evidence suggests that the heart plays a particularly significant role in this process.

Far more than a simple pump, as was once believed, the heart is now recognized by scientists as a highly complex system with its own functional “brain.”

Research in the new discipline of neurocardiology shows that the heart is a sensory organ and a sophisticated center for receiving and processing information. The nervous system within the heart (or heart brain) enables it to learn, remember and make functional decisions independent of the brain's cerebral cortex. Moreover, numerous experiments have demonstrated that the signals the heart continuously send to the brain influence the function of higher brain centers involved in perception, cognition and emotional processing.

In addition to the extensive neural communication network linking the heart with the brain and body, the heart also communicates information to the brain and throughout the body via electromagnetic field interactions. The heart generates the body’s most powerful and most extensive rhythmic electromagnetic field. Compared to the electromagnetic field produced by the brain, the electrical component of the heart’s field is about 60 times greater in amplitude, and permeates every cell in the body.The magnetic component is approximately 5000 times stronger than the brain’s magnetic field and can be detected several feet away from the body."

The Heart’s Field and Intuition.
There are also new data suggesting that the heart’s field is directly involved in intuitive perception, through its coupling to an energetic information field outside the bounds of space and time. Using a rigorous experimental design,we found compelling evidence that both the heart and brain receive and respond to information about a future event before the event actually happens. Even more surprising was our finding that the heart appears to receive this “intuitive”information before the brain. This suggests that the heart’s field may be linked to a more subtle energetic field that contains information on objects and events remote in space or ahead in time.

Called by Karl Pribram and others the “spectral domain,” this is a fundamental order of potential energy that enfolds space and time, and is thought to be the basis for our consciousness of “the whole.”

(See www.heartmath.org)

In the end, who am I to say what reality is or what the truth is. That may be different for everyone. It was, however, an interesting video and I enjoyed pieces of his presentation.

This part in particular:

"...When one's natural autonomy is realized - this is the core of our freedom. This is the core of what gives us action and freedom. When ones' natural autonomy is realized, the interrelatedness of freedom and responsibly is realized.

I am the act and I am the outcome of the act. This is the only governing principal.

Natural laws that govern humans - I am free and I am the result of those actions

What is being circumvented in all of this? Us coming to realize our own power and the limits of that power. That power is intrinsically interwoven with our responsibility.

This is what we don't get in touch with in a spiritual context - the relationship between freedom and responsibility.

Enlightenment is the ultimate illusion. The ultimate play on our senses. It is a very palpable experience. It is not simply for Buddha or for a few select people. Many people have had this experience. Some people are wrapped up into the lifelong pursuit of this.

Before enlightenment - chop wood - carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood carry water..."

[Flash]

I have the taste to ask, from the comments of the members here, who has listened to the video in its entirety? of even 20 minutes of it?

Sorry Marguerite Bee, i had not seen that you had asked the same question than mine, and thank you Marin for having watched it

[Maunagarjana]

I'm sorry, I can't take this seriously for ten seconds. I could spend my time watching this fool embarrass himself as he blows smoke up my ass or I could go outside and meditate. Since I am person who prefers wisdom over having smoke blown up my ass, I will choose meditation and cultivation of the mind.

Look, I will let scientific studies speak for themselves. It's only part of the picture, but it should provide people with some clues at least.

Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in eight weeks
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0121144007.htm

Meditation makes you more creative
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0419102317.htm

Can meditation make you a more compassionate person?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0401111553.htm

Meditation helps increase attention span
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0714121737.htm

Mindful multitasking: Meditation first can calm stress, aid concentration
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0614094118.htm

Study reveals gene expression changes with meditation
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1208090343.htm

Meditation reduces the emotional impact of pain, study finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0602091315.htm

Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in heart patients
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1113161504.htm

Meditation appears to produce enduring changes in emotional processing in the brain
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1112150339.htm

Breast cancer survivors benefit from practicing mindfulness-based stress reduction
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1229203000.htm

This is your brain on meditation: Brain processes more thoughts, feelings during meditation, study shows
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0515095545.htm

Meditation for anxiety, depression?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0106190050.htm

Just 25 minutes of mindfulness meditation alleviates stress, study shows
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0702122535.htm

Meditation: Healing more than just minds? Mindfulness intervention for people with diabetes, coronary heart disease
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0529142313.htm

Mindfulness-based meditation helps teenagers with cancer
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0313212633.htm

Mindfulness meditation may improve decision-making, new study suggests
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0212112745.htm

Meditating before lecture leads to better grades
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0409131811.htm

Meditation may help slow progression of Alzheimer's disease
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1118141817.htm

Mindfulness-based stress reduction helps lower blood pressure, study finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1015094436.htm

Mindfulness meditation trims craving for tobacco: 60% reduction in smoking
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0805152418.htm

And on and on and on and on.......

[Arak]

We all walk the same road, but the styles may vary.

[Flash]

you haven't listen to the video Maunargajana or haven not understood it, so why would you be sooooo gross by talking about a "fool who embarass himself" as you say. This guy has more schooling and intelligence than most, and probably both of us together.

Your reaction is a reaction - not a complete process, and an emotional one it seems. Maybe you should go further into reflexion.

I have studied and practice meditation for years, have studied esoterism, and have been part of the New Age wave.

I also have a sharp mind able hopefully of critical thinking.

This guy does not deny any of the posting you have here, nor the studies you think are the geniuses of meditation, nor anything like this. Meditation has a real impact, he does not deny this, what he says is that it is greatfully used by the elite for control, willingly planned or through accidental happening since the last thousands of years. He says the same for religious beliefs and ways as well.

From this, he could derive the right ways of thinking that will lead to natural enlightenement. Funny enough, but once meditation is well installed, it is exactly these ways of thinking that have to take over, from my esoteric studies..

He only plainly explains critical thinking paired with sensory detection and mindfull awareness, for regular enlightement, attainable by anyone if we do not block our real thinking and how we are controlled by false input or corrupted itiration.

Easy enough to understand, and plainly brilliant in my views.

[Maunagarjana]

Posted by Flash (here)
you haven't listen to the video Maunargajana or haven not understood it, so why would you be sooooo gross by talking about a "fool who embarass himself" as you say. This guy has more schooling and intelligence than most, and probably both of us together.

Your reaction is a reaction - not a complete process, and an emotional one it seems. Maybe you should go further into reflexion.

I have studied and practice meditation for years, have studied esoterism, and have been part of the New Age wave.

I also have a sharp mind able hopefully of critical thinking.

This guy does not deny any of the posting you have here, nor the studies you think are the geniuses of meditation, nor anything like this. Meditation has a real impact, he does not deny this, what he says is that it is greatfully used by the elite for control, willingly planned or through accidental happening since the last thousands of years. He says the same for religious beliefs and ways as well.

From this, he could derive the right ways of thinking that will lead to natural enlightenement. Funny enough, but once meditation is well installed, it is exactly these ways of thinking that have to take over, from my esoteric studies..

He only plainly explains critical thinking paired with sensory detection and mindfull awareness, for regular enlightement, attainable by anyone if we do not block our real thinking and how we are controlled by false input or corrupted itiration.

Easy enough to understand, and plainly brilliant in my views.

What he is saying is to me appallingly false, no matter how fancy he dresses it up. As if I needed anymore reason to believe that "Gnostic Media" is a joke.

[joeecho]

Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
Look, I will let scientific studies speak for themselves. It's only part of the picture, but it should provide people with some clues at least.

In general.......

It's interesting how people will support 'scientific studies' when it backs up their dogmas on a subject but will tear a 'scientific study' apart when it doesn't.

Humans are funny.