Thread dedicated to the debate of definitions of Right Hand path and Left Hand path

[Chester]

This thread is created such that folks can debate the actual meanings of the terms Right Hand path and Left Hand path.

Good Luck to all!

[shadowstalker]

This should prove interesting.... YES???

[Zanshin]

What - no opening salvo to stir the pot justone?

[Chester]

Zanshin, Thanks for asking since it appears no one else can (here) yet in the sister thread where I had hoped we could discuss the pros and cons of these two "paths" within the definitions I DID provide... that I asked be accepted for our ability to weigh the pros and cons of each, what happened was that several posters disagreed with the definitions.

My theory about that is based on simple, human psychology and note, this same underlying psychology is found in the foundations of witch hunts, inquisitions, crusades, etc. The need to be "right" becomes an imposition of "righteousness" which eventually becomes quite nasty for anyone who does not adopt the party line. I hope I have begun the stirring well.

So - to kick the ball off, I must point to two posts I wrote in the sister thread as those two posts clearly define these two paths as they are known to be defined from antiquity within the various branches of what is known as the Hermetic Traditions and have roots way back to India from the Vedic traditions.

Post # 2

Post #24

In addition, one can get a very clear understanding of these two terms via this video which was posted by another member on the sister thread in Post #33


I hope this kicks the ball off!

[A Voice from the Mountains]

I always preferred the terms "service-to-others" and "service-to-self."

If there's really any formal way to define "good" and "evil," I think this would be the closest thing to it.

Even in science you see it: entropy on one hand, and what people call reverse-entropy (which isn't supposed to exist and yet must, and I think it is consciousness -- how else could the universe produce things like cars and blenders if everything is only becoming more chaotic and less ordered?). On one hand you have individual things coming together to work cooperatively, on the other hand you have things breaking down back into individual pieces and serving nothing but their own interests.

[Chester]

Posted by bsbray (here)
I always preferred the terms "service-to-others" and "service-to-self."

If there's really any formal way to define "good" and "evil," I think this would be the closest thing to it.

Even in science you see it: entropy on one hand, and what people call reverse-entropy (which isn't supposed to exist and yet must, and I think it is consciousness -- how else could the universe produce things like cars and blenders if everything is only becoming more chaotic and less ordered?). On one hand you have individual things coming together to work cooperatively, on the other hand you have things breaking down back into individual pieces and serving nothing but their own interests.

One can be Left hand path oriented and be of great service in positive ways to others.

One can promote a dogma and insist others follow that dogma and insist their dogma is "good for others" and then think they are being of service to others when they are only servicing themselves in avoiding facing their own fears.

As to the point regarding "more chaotic and less ordered" (which suggests two poles of a duality) does a Left Hand path paradigm promote chaos or order?

If so, please point out a Left Hand path tradition that pushes for chaos.

Point out a Left hand path tradition that imposes a dogmatic order?

I can create a lengthy list of Right Hand path religions that impose "order" on those they can subjugate (and go so far as to do this with horrific violence). You must agree to their dogma or face gruesome death. Here is a good (rather recent) example of such - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

All done to enforce that all human beings within reach of the Roman Catholic Church adopt and accept the doctrines and practices of that Catholic Church or be exterminated.

A historical figure to consider (when considering who is "good" and who is "evil") is Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia commonly known is the legendary Dracula. With proper research, one will discover that Vlad Dracul resorted to the tactics he is now infamous for (mass impalement) as a tactic to protect his subjects from being forced to pay a tax to the Sultan imposed on non Muslims.

Was he good? Was he evil?

To me he was a hero to the people he was born to protect.

[Chester]

Here is an additional, clearly informed source for defining Left Hand path and Right Hand path -

https://www.facebook.com/TheChurchOf...64199163757588

"There was a tendency in mahayana to bridge the gap of absolute separateness between nirvana and maya. One way was found in the doctrine of the boddhisattva, "one bound for awakening." A boddhisattva was a near perfected being who could effect the enlightenment or development of less awakened people through a kind of magical intervention from his ascended state. (This doctrine, as found in Tibetan Buddhism, is apparently the main source for later ideas of "unknown superiors," "secret chiefs," and mahatmas found in certain Masonic, quasi-masonic and Theosophical schools in the west.)"

and a bit further down -

"In Buddhism, as in Hinduism, the left-hand path ends not in the absorption or annihilation of individuality in moksha or nirvana [which is the end for Right Hand path] but in a perpetuation of that individuality on a more permanent plane of existence. Within Buddhist terminology, the practitioner of the left-hand path aims to attain only to the boddhisattvic state--and to remain there as a deity--"angelic" or "demonic." The final annihilation is resisted.

Note the critically important last sentence - "attain only to the boddhisattvic state--and to remain there as a deity--"angelic" or "demonic."

The notion that Left Hand path = evil is nothing but ignorance.

The choice as to how one wishes to apply their individuated "higher state" is no different than an unattained human being's choice to do good or evil.

Please, read the link posted above to get a clearer understanding of the origins (and thus actual meanings) of these two terms.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

I guess this is why this thread exists, huh? The left-hand path you're talking about, justone, isn't the kind of idea I had in mind.

If you're talking left-hand path as opposed to a right-hand path, you already have a duality. So I'm just wondering what kind of duality we are creating here: good / evil, conventional / unconventional, dogmatic / undogmatic, mystical / rational . . .

Honestly when I hear "left-hand path," the only people I hear use that term are either gothic-type ceremonial magicians or Satanists, so if you're talking about "left-hand path" according to Eastern traditions then I'm not sure where the comparison comes in.


If this thread is about some complex theological or philosophical system, I like to simplify ideas, between cultures for example, to basic ideas that they have in common, more than tease out nuances between different ways of looking at things. So maybe I had a wrong idea of the discussion.

[Zanshin]

Well thanks for the links to the other thread justone - there are so many that one just slipped by me.

I have nothing to add to this high level discourse - happy to observe and reflect.

One query - can anyone speak to right brain/ left brain dominant in correlation to this subject?

[Chester]

Hi bsbray

Here is simplified

RHP = eventual absorption into or a "merging" with source resulting in eventual self-anihilation

LHP = solidification of the self such that one might achieve continuance beyond death of the body as that same self (with as full memory as possible) and for as many experiences as possible, in fact for eternity if one so desires unless one gets tired and perhaps decides to go RHP.

I understand why you have developed the views you have as this is what the ignorant believe and what the willful deceivers want you to believe. The ignorant follow the shepherd which is either a 'dogooder' wanna be or a disguised wolf.

Those who live independent, sovereign and take personal responsibility for their lives fit in the Left Hand category. Can some of those Left Handers take things further and use magic upon others or abuse others, etc. Of Course.

Can someone live independent, sovereign and take personal responsibility for their lives while seeking the goal of RHP? Yes... though if they are successful at achieving independence, knowledge, meaningful experience, sovereignty and discover the fruits of taking true, full personal responsibility they are more likely to change their mind along the way regarding wishing to merge with source.

If they think they are RHP but retain their individuation in any form (ie. soul, etc.) then they are misunderstanding the definition.

Did you read the link provided? Did you read the quote I highlighted?

If someone takes terms that have held a solid meaning for thousands of years and only in the last hundred those terms have been reinterpreted by a few loons or intentional disinfo agents, which set of definitions would have greater validity?

[Chester]

Posted by Zanshin (here)
Well thanks for the links to the other thread justone - there are so many that one just slipped by me.

I have nothing to add to this high level discourse - happy to observe and reflect.

One query - can anyone speak to right brain/ left brain dominant in correlation to this subject?

It is my opinion that both left brain (read logic, read metaphorical masculine) and right brain (read intuitive, read metaphorical feminine) are equally important tools. In my personal experience, I sometimes ask Wisdom to recommend an action when within myself (using both logic and any personally filtered intuition falls short). In many cases, when the answer comes from Wisdom, it seems illogical. Yet, because I have gained much trust (through positive experiences with these recommendations) I usually follow these recommendations. Note, a healthy neocortex is vital to the smooth and balanced operation of these two components of the brain.

I see Wisdom metaphorically as The Goddess. Any true study of the Goddess traditions reveals a view these traditions as left Hand path. In fact, in Hinduism there is the worship of a woman by what is known as 'vamacharins' and vama in Sanskrit means left and also means woman or Goddess. The Goddess and woman are seen as the embodiment of Shakti (power). Even further, the vamacharin seeks to become a woman meaning god-like and super-human.

Woman also symbolizes carer, nurturer and thus is the highest metaphorical personification of love for me. Woman is the first physical contact for any child. In most cases at birth the child is placed in the arms of the child's mother. If there be a hierarchy (which I do not see) then it seems logical the woman is #1. I prefer a balanced sacred feminine / sacred masculine but because I am male and because of the external imbalanced patriarchy (which I see diminishing) I reactively put woman first and If I am unsure I always choose intuition over logic as only through the intuitive side of the brain can Wisdom beyond myself flow into me.

as an aside - Just the other day my son accused me of 'worshiping women' after I had spoken to him with regards to his girlfriends satisfaction with an evangelical preacher spouting off as to how God intended man to be the master of woman and I had gone berserk upon hearing about it! I do so hope he abandons that view for the sake of my daughter in law to be and the child they have on the way.

[Chester]

Posted by bsbray (here)
I guess this is why this thread exists, huh? The left-hand path you're talking about, justone, isn't the kind of idea I had in mind.

If you're talking left-hand path as opposed to a right-hand path, you already have a duality. So I'm just wondering what kind of duality we are creating here: good / evil, conventional / unconventional, dogmatic / undogmatic, mystical / rational . . .

Honestly when I hear "left-hand path," the only people I hear use that term are either gothic-type ceremonial magicians or Satanists, so if you're talking about "left-hand path" according to Eastern traditions then I'm not sure where the comparison comes in.


If this thread is about some complex theological or philosophical system, I like to simplify ideas, between cultures for example, to basic ideas that they have in common, more than tease out nuances between different ways of looking at things. So maybe I had a wrong idea of the discussion.

Let me add this too. You didn't have the wrong idea. Yet, if one comes here only to state what their definition is and not consider the possibility their definition might not be the essentials of definition that have been passed through consistently by multiple cultures for centuries... and that perhaps to look at the more historically accepted definitions and consider their validity might actually shed new light and raise one's level of awareness.

One of the ways those who seek power over others is to generate illusions which the unsuspecting and unwitting will swallow. Left Hand path presents a way to empowerment. There are those who do not wish anyone else is empowered.

[kirolak]

Great thread! Right now I am in an odd state of mind that seems to block verbal expression, so I too will be in IO (Interested Observer)

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by justone (here)
Let me add this too. You didn't have the wrong idea. Yet, if one comes here only to state what their definition is and not consider the possibility their definition might not be the essentials of definition that have been passed through consistently by multiple cultures for centuries... and that perhaps to look at the more historically accepted definitions and consider their validity might actually shed new light and raise one's level of awareness.

So tell me what I have to subscribe to, to raise my consciousness levels.

One of the ways those who seek power over others is to generate illusions which the unsuspecting and unwitting will swallow. Left Hand path presents a way to empowerment. There are those who do not wish anyone else is empowered.

Yes, the ones who don't want anyone else empowered are who I meant by "service-to-self"; their primary objective is to do what's best for themselves, even when it puts others at a disadvantage, instead of trying to work simultaneously for the good of all.

[Chester]

Posted by bsbray (here)

Posted by justone (here)
Let me add this too. You didn't have the wrong idea. Yet, if one comes here only to state what their definition is and not consider the possibility their definition might not be the essentials of definition that have been passed through consistently by multiple cultures for centuries... and that perhaps to look at the more historically accepted definitions and consider their validity might actually shed new light and raise one's level of awareness.

So tell me what I have to subscribe to, to raise my consciousness levels.

One of the ways those who seek power over others is to generate illusions which the unsuspecting and unwitting will swallow. Left Hand path presents a way to empowerment. There are those who do not wish anyone else is empowered.

Yes, the ones who don't want anyone else empowered are who I meant by "service-to-self"; their primary objective is to do what's best for themselves, even when it puts others at a disadvantage, instead of trying to work simultaneously for the good of all.

I can't speak for others but for me, to use higher knowledge as you just described is abusive and also (Edit 2014-11-1 - adding the un as originally meant ) unfulfilling. I suspect some Satanists and what Passio describes as Dark Luciferions use Black Magic in that way.

Yet, it doesn't make sense to me because the more I learn, the more I find myself becoming more of a service to all type being.

[Chester]

I have drawn a current conclusion.

Perhaps this is premature (which would be wonderful).

There is something known as "the thought police." What a "thought policeman" does is they monitor dissemination of thought such that if thoughts come forth through words or symbols (such as art) which they fear and which they wish to suppress, they will use any measure available to them so to do.

They may feel (on the surface) that they are "good" for others (and perhaps for everyone) and that this gives them the right and authority to block any form of dialogue which might lead to new ideas and new understandings which threaten their own views and threaten their security which is dependent upon the experiential world remaining as it is. So they do anything they can to control thought and often they do so by derailing open conversation or imposing their own (always filled with dogma) paradigms.

A week back I created a thread which had the intention of discussing and analyzing the good and/or bad of what are known as The Right Hand path and the Left Hand path and that to do so, both of these paths had to be defined so that the discussion could come forth.

There was a request to accept the definitions supplied so that an intelligent and insightful discussion could occur. What happened was that the thread was immediately pounced upon by emulators of "thought police" and so I then created this thread so that folks who had opinions that differed as to the meanings of these two terms could ping-pong the definition debate.

Strangely though.... none of those thought policemen showed up here.

And so I had to draw the sad conclusion I stated above. There is still a portion of humanity that wants to control how you think. When they discover someone wiggling free, they pounce and this can be seen by the emotional responses and the dogmatic, authoritarian responses.

I am in no way immune from the former... emotional responses. I am pretty good at avoiding dogmatic, authoritative responses as my style is simply to share my own experience and then put forth thoughts as ideas and not as holy writ.

Soon I will attempt once again to generate what may be a difficult discussion to have based on much a.) lack of knowledge/understanding b.) willful ignorance (self imposed stupidity) c.) fear of the unknown that might unfold such that current conceptions become threatening to one's sense of security.

Many here on Avalon complain about the way this world is today yet many of these same complainers also block thought that might move this world forward. Go figure.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

Posted by justone (here)
I can't speak for others but for me, to use higher knowledge as you just described is abusive and also fulfilling. I suspect some Satanists and what Passio describes as Dark Luciferions use Black Magic in that way.

Abusive, I would agree with. Fulfilling, only for some people. For me personally if I do something that I know is abusive or hurtful to someone else, it actually makes me feel badly too, so I can't really feel fulfilled because of that. I know someone from these perspectives might say that my conscience is weak because of this and I shouldn't care if I hurt others to get what I want, etc.

But also I see this issue from a different perspective. Whether it's an ant hive, human community, a corporate business, or a physical body (there are many examples), these structures always do better as a whole when they cooperate with a common goal to benefit the whole unit. So if I'm a human cell, and I want what I want and I don't care about the other cells in the body, I would essentially become a cancer cell and "steal" resources from the surrounding environment without giving much back. Now in the long run this not only puts the body in general at a disadvantage, but also myself, for two reasons: 1) I would actually benefit more if the body were working healthily and provided me with everything I needed in a natural and healthy way, and 2) the rest of the body wouldn't be pissed at me and keep trying to kill me with white blood cells and various herbs and spices that the person starts eating to "treat" me.

So for me, trying to empower everyone else isn't just a "moral" idea, it actually makes good sense and is better for me also. Especially if there are ET races out there, some of which are very cooperative amongst each other (especially if they have "hive minds" as described), then we have a lot of re-organization to do, to be able to secure our own place without having to worry about being vulnerable to manipulation or exploitation without our even knowing of it. But then not everyone believes in ETs either. :D

[TargeT]

Since this is all really just an illusion/game

can't we define it simply as:

Good = stuff you like

Evil = Stuff you don't like

yeah?

[A Voice from the Mountains]

You could, Targe.

But then say that someone would like a girlfriend, so it'd be good to have a girlfriend so this person gets one. And she's beautiful and he likes her a lot. But then she likes doing something that he doesn't like to do. So now he's faced with a choice: do something he doesn't really like in order to keep his girlfriend, or else not do it, because he doesn't like it and it's evil to him, and make his girlfriend mad, which is also evil to him.

So then things can get more complicated in cases like this.

[TargeT]

Posted by bsbray (here)
You could, Targe.

But then say that someone would like a girlfriend, so it'd be good to have a girlfriend so this person gets one. And she's beautiful and he likes her a lot. But then she likes doing something that he doesn't like to do. So now he's faced with a choice: do something he doesn't really like in order to keep his girlfriend, or else not do it, because he doesn't like it and it's evil to him, and make his girlfriend mad, which is also evil to him.

So then things can get more complicated in cases like this.

well yes, dissonance is a part of the illusion so I think the definitions would still fit.

You see, since we are all that is/was/ever will be we are ALSO "good" and "evil" so these type of dissonance based situations will arise and only the unbalanced will take issue with it (which is the vast majority of us who are not in touch with our "shadow" self etc..)