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    Default Does the soul exist?

    From http://angelfire.com/mn2/tisthammerw/rlgnphil/soul.html


    Does the soul exist? Is there any evidence to support this? In this article I'll show you one argument that I think supports the existence of a soul. Before going on, I’d like to establish the law of cause-and-effect. There is a metaphysical precept called ex nihilo nihil fit (which is Latin for “from nothing, nothing is produced”). This reasoning demands that, for any event that begins to exist, something must have caused it. This is because the idea of nothing producing such an event is ontologically impossible (from nothing, nothing is produced). Both scientists and laymen have observed the phenomenon of cause-and-effect. It rains because the clouds above are saturated with water, waves are formed because of the wind, cars move because the engine causes it to move, and so forth.

    Suppose a dark, gray cloud shoots out lightning that strikes down a heavy tree, which in turn falls down on Bob’s favorite car. Can Bob rightfully blame the tree for the destruction of his car? No, the tree didn’t have a choice in the matter. Its fall was simply caused by the lightning, which was caused static electricity, which resulted from the clouds, which came about by weather patterns etc. Unlike the tree, we humans have a special ability that can cause us to be responsible for our actions. Rather than being pipelines for chains of natural causation that go back before our birth, we can initiate our own causal chains. This ability is commonly called free will.

    Free will is about voluntary choice, being able to choose one’s own actions, and thus the freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes. (For if our actions were forced on us by prior causes outside our control, we would not have free will.)

    But do we really possess free will? Are we really capable of choosing our own actions? Experiment for yourself. To see if you have free will, intentionally do something, anything at all. For instance, try to move your arm. Can you do it? I think I can. And the evidence (direct perceptions) would seem to indicate that we do indeed have free will.

    As we’ll see later on, the existence of free will is the foundation of the upcoming argument for the existence of the soul. But there are some people who believe the existence of free will is only an illusion, and instead our actions are determined by prior causes. Thus we have no choice in whatever we do. A rebuttal to this would be that we should trust our direct perceptions (just as we generally trust sense experience) unless we have good reason to believe otherwise, and that there is no sufficiently good reason to believe otherwise. But, like the existence of free will, even this is a point that can be disputed. So, is it the case that free will exists?




    Before continuing, let's look at some terminology.

    materialism: the belief that the physical world is the only reality. Thus, things if incorporeal substance (such as the soul) do not exist.
    physicalism: the belief that we have physical bodies but no nonphysical minds or souls.
    Technically, one can believe in physicalism but not materialism. For instance, it is logically possible for one to believe in an incorporeal God, but purely physical humans. Nonetheless, many physicalists are also materialists.
    determinism: the belief that all effects (including our actions) are determined by prior causes.
    metaphysical freedom: the belief that we can choose among genuine alternatives (what many think of when they read the term “free will”).
    libertarianism: belief that we have metaphysical freedom, and thus rejects determinism. Libertarianism comes in two forms: agency theory and indeterminism.
    indeterminism: sometimes called simple indeterminism, this theory defines free will as “an effect without a cause” and that we have such free will.
    One criticism of this belief is that it seems to violate ex nihilo nihil fit.
    agency theory: the belief that free will is an act of agent-causation, whereby an agent (person, self) causes an event to happen.
    Agency theory should not be confused with simple indeterminism. In agency theory, an act of free will is not a random, uncaused event. Rather, we (agents) cause things and create new causal chains. As you might have guessed, the type of metaphysical view of free will being discussed here is agency theory. But is the essence of an agent nonphysical (as the soul) or purely physical? Read on.

    In the following argument, free will the foundational piece of evidence that supports the existence of the soul (the immaterial basis of oneself). Recall that free will involves the freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes. Therefore, free will is itself a cause and not an effect in its interactions with corporeality. So if free will is to exist, its basis must be incorporeal (once the corporeal is excluded, the incorporeal is the only remaining logical possibility). Since it is the self that causes the actions (i.e. is the basis of the free will), and if the basis of free will is necessarily incorporeal, then the basis of the self is incorporeal. Since the incorporeal essence of the self is called the soul, then if free will exists the soul must exist also. Free will obviously exists, therefore the soul does also.

    Confused? Okay, let’s take it one step at a time:

    1 Free will exists (follows from direct perceptions).
    2 The soul is the incorporeal essence of oneself (by definition).
    3 Free will is about voluntary choice, being able to choose one’s own actions; the freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes. (By definition.)
    4 Therefore, free will is itself a cause and not an effect in its interactions with corporeality (follows from 3, see also further justification below).
    5 So if free will exists, its basis must be incorporeal. (Follows from 4. If free will exists it has to have some kind of existence; and from 4 free will is not an effect in its interactions with corporeality, the basis of free will cannot be corporeal, the only alternative left is the incorporeal; see also further justification below.)
    6 The self chooses one’s own actions (part of the definition of free will, i.e. from line 3), and is thus the basis of free will.
    7 The basis of the self must be incorporeal if free will exists, since the basis of free will must be incorporeal, and the basis of free will is the self (from 2, 5 and 6).
    Conclusion: The soul exists because free will exists (from 1 and 7).

    Some quick terminology: an argument being valid just means that, if premises are true, then the conclusion must be true also. A sound argument is both valid and has all true premises. There are two ways the above argument can be unsound. One is that the argument is invalid (not valid), i.e. the conclusion does not logically follow somewhere along the way. In that case, the question would be, “which line of the argument does not logically follow from the statement(s) it’s based upon?” The second way the argument can fail to be sound is if one of the premises is wrong. In that case, “which premise fails and why?”

    A quick way to attack the argument is to deny the existence of free will. Thus, a person who disbelieves in the existence of free will could reject line 1. Though rational support for the first premise was given, one could still claim (rationally or irrationally?) that that those perceptions are illusory. But if free will does exist, does it logically follow that the soul must exist also? After all, if free will exists and if the argument is valid, then the soul would have to exist. So is the argument valid? To better answer this question, let’s more closely examine lines 4 and 5 of the argument.

    Further Justification for Lines 4 and 5
    Here’s the problem in a nutshell: in a purely physical world, our actions are solely the product of forces completely beyond our control, and thus we would not have free will. To better illustrate lines 4 and 5 of the argument, let’s look at the materialist’s view. The causal chain would be something like this:




    Natural Processes
    |
    CAUSE
    |
    Inner Brain States
    |
    CAUSE
    |
    Mental and Physical Actions



    Because of cause-and-effect however, this corporeal chain of causation would extend back well before we were born. Yet conditions before our birth are clearly outside of our control, so the chain of causation would look something like this:




    Natural Processes Outside Our Control
    |
    CAUSE
    |
    Inner Brain States
    |
    CAUSE
    |
    Mental and Physical Actions



    But if this is accurate, we would not be originating the cause of anything. We would be just like the tree that fell on Bob's car, being a conduit of natural forces outside our control. In this case, our actions would be determined by prior causes. We would not have free will. This is why free will by definition cannot be an effect in corporeality (hence line 4). To have free will we must exist outside this corporeal tapestry (hence line 5). If free will exists and its basis cannot be corporeal, the only logical alternative is the incorporeal realm. Since its basis must be incorporeal, we must logically have souls if we possess free will.


    While the argument may seem sound, especially if free will exists, there are a few points that could be disputed. The argument could still be rejected if free will does not exist. Does human volition exist? Are the arguments for lines 4 and 5 sufficient rational grounds for accepting them as true WHO KNOWS
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 2nd November 2010 at 14:51. Reason: added source link

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    ... and it apparently has a measurable weight.

    Namaste, Steven

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    Hello The One

    Apparently the weight of the souls is 21 grams.

    Love and peace to you. JP

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?



    Like S. Thomas..................See it...weight it ...........etc............... LoL !

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    In Bruce Lipton's extraordinary video: "The New Biology - Where Mind and Matter Meet," Lipton discovers the existence of the "soul" while doing his research. A truly enlightening video. Highly recommended.

    Lipton references an actual electronic device that can read thoughts that appear to be transmitted to the Information Field, the specific location in the universe where our thoughts are broadcasted and stored. This field appears to be where we as souls exist in spiritual form (energy).

    The existence of this field was also confirmed by Pete Peterson who was also interviewed by Bill Ryan, Kerry Cassidy and David Wilcock in a Project Camelot interview. Definitely worth watching.

    Dr. Lipton is one of the top pioneer's in bridging Science and Spirituality.

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    - Soul
    in my opinion, it not only exist,
    it shapes the physical and mental presence
    of its every manifestation.
    - And
    it has a memory of its own, of
    apex experiences throughout
    its eternal being.
    Essence



    - So
    take it slow, anyhow.

    Last edited by noxon medem; 2nd November 2010 at 23:33.

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    Picked this up in another htread...very good...read until the end of this short article-

    Love
    MD

    http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/hell.asp

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    Happy to see some hard logic on this conundrum, this is a very convincing argument!
    In the system of cause-and-effect a prime mover is required and the simple solution as to what provides this is free will. We make the picture called reality move. Without free will even an illusion is not possible, since an illusion is only true when it is experienced. Quite simply if there is an illusion then it follows that there must be someone experiencing it.

    In direct answer to the question 'does the soul exist?' YES and there is scientific proof, with repeatable experiments for 100+ years and since 1987 the mathematical proof also, called the Big Breed theory. I have put a post up about Ron Pearson here and a really quick intro to what he says is here: SURVIVAL PHYSICS: A Brief Summary

    The names of the real people who invented radio and television have been hidden from history over the evidence for the fact that the mind and brain are separate and that we all survive the death of our bodies.

    See you when it's all over! :D

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    Quote Overwhelming experimental evidence for survival of bodily death, amounting to total proof, already exists. This has been generated by both mental and physical mediumship, as concisely described by Victor Zammit(1) in his book, "A LAWYER ARGUES FOR THE AFTERLIFE". He draws his information from a wide range of literature and this is only one of thousands of books written on the subject. For example, James Webster(2), a member of the inner magic circle and one time stage magician, is a more recent author who would be most difficult to deceive by trickery. He includes his own personal experiences to supplement reports from famous scientists such as Sir William Crookes, Sir Oliver Lodge and John Logie Baird. What ought to provide a real clincher, however, is the evidence given by a team, including scientists and Webster, in the "Scole Report" published by the Society for Psychical Research(3) in 1999. This is surely proof that mediumship, inclusive of physical effects impossible to replicate by us, can be genuine.
    http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/rdp/...alphysics.html

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    Quote Does the soul exist?
    Question confuses me.
    I go with the wisdom available in the Peter O'Toole movie "Creator".
    At a cocktail party full of college professors one asks the other,
    "Then how can we empirically know that we exist at all?"

    A passing waitress overhears and says,
    "Well, begin with the assumption you don't, and see how far your thinking takes you."

    If you're worried if you have one, then chances are you do.
    Fred

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    The question may be framed as is the body in the spirit or is the spirit in the body? The body is a manifestation of the energetic field and thus the body is 'in' the spirit. Death is not "real"................it is a matter of energetics. This is why the fear of death has been used to effectively control people, this is why the practice of sacrifice has been ingrained in human consciousness, shifting the mental focus to propitiation of the 'gods' outside and separate from the self, away from realization and understanding of the power of one. We must wake up to who and what we are.................again this is one reason why the mummy cases portray the ancient egyptians with eyes wide open, awake. The worst someone can do is to take your body away from you, they delude themselves in thinking this is possible and hope you will be deluded too. For more on this specific subject read the Bhagavad Gita, I recommend the translation by Juan Mascaro, Penguin Classics 1963.

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    I have had the privelage of being with many people as they have passed......as you hold their hand you can literally feel a "rising" for lack of a better word at the moment of death.

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    what if I told you your subconscious is your soul?

    your subconscious self continues when you pass...

    it recorded everything that happened in your life time and when you rejoin the source, that experience / knowledge is added to the whole...

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    I sort of agree with Rocky that most of your soul is subconscious or unconscious. But that's because "your" soul is simply you, whoever you truly, really are. Curiouser and curiouser.


    Unfortunately, The One, I would have to point out that it has been absolutely proved that the "law" of causality isn't always valid. In Western philosophy, this fact was first totally proved by the great Scottish philosopher David Hume in the eighteenth century. The very great Prussian philosopher Immanuel Kant proved it in a different and very absolute way in the nineteenth century. Ancient Indian and Chinese philosophy had proved it thousands of years ago.

    And I won't even try to begin to explain the complexities involved in truly analyzing the concept of "free will" accurately. Don't get me wrong, though. I'm all for freedom and expanding all your horizons. And I agree. The essence of the soul is non-material and has lots to do with being free.

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    Nice one! Says it all doesn't it.
    Personally I've grown so very tired of doubt, it's really wearing me down. We waste so much time and energy in our attempts to satisfy the "passionate skeptics" and the debunkers, nowadays I try to just pass on the information and leave it at that. We're not here to convince anyone, just to pass on truth.
    To question with an open mind is good but to distrust every idea isn't so good.
    I don't "have" a soul, I AM spirit or soul and I'm being weighed down by this physical sack of water and stuff.
    I've been out of it on enough occasions to know what I am. I've glimpsed the divine once, felt its love and it told me not to worry that everything will be alright but I'm so tired of what we do to each other, so very tired.

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    well let me share just a bit more...

    PTB know how to program your subconscious... Once you realize what your subconscious is, you can start doing it yourself...

    You are getting hammered with subliminal messages daily... Learn to push it aside... Subconscious auto mute...


    you will break free from the binds holding you back...

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    If all the answers lie within, we just need to remember or feel a resonance to the answer to this question. I would believe that the soul collects experiences and stores them in a morphogenetic field around us, i.e. the quantum that the DNA and our higher consciousness draws on. That same field also surrounds the planet, the solar systems and Universes. It is the grid we are tethered to -- to Creator.
    When you realize where you come from, you naturally become tolerant, disinterested, amused, kindhearted as a grandparent, dignified as a king. -- I Ching

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    Quote Posted by felixq78 (here)
    Nice one! Says it all doesn't it.
    Personally I've grown so very tired of doubt, it's really wearing me down. We waste so much time and energy in our attempts to satisfy the "passionate skeptics" and the debunkers, nowadays I try to just pass on the information and leave it at that. We're not here to convince anyone, just to pass on truth.
    To question with an open mind is good but to distrust every idea isn't so good.
    I don't "have" a soul, I AM spirit or soul and I'm being weighed down by this physical sack of water and stuff.
    I've been out of it on enough occasions to know what I am. I've glimpsed the divine once, felt its love and it told me not to worry that everything will be alright but I'm so tired of what we do to each other, so very tired.
    I have to fully agree Felix. The consciousness/soul/spirit is the 'real you', while this human body that one (consciousness) inhabits it's just a temporary vehicle to experience this 3D reality.
    Last edited by truthseekerdan; 9th November 2010 at 03:35.
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    Free your mind, and open your heart to LOVE.
    You'll then become enlightened able to just BE.

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    Default Re: Does the soul exist?

    Quote Posted by truthseekerdan (here)
    I have to fully agree Felix. The consciousness/soul/spirit is the 'real you', while this human body that one (consciousness) inhabits it's just a temporary vehicle to experience this 3D reality.
    Why call your body 'just a temporary vehicle'?
    Do you not love or care for your body?
    Here's a concept:
    The soul inhabits a body to experience 3rd density concepts.
    However, in 3rd density there is no need for a soul or soulgroup to 'create' 3rd density reality. Prime creator already has this fixed...
    So... wouldn't it be safe to assume that 'the human body' is in ITSELF an intelligent being and is able to 'think' on 3rd density level?
    If this were true, I would say your 'human body' is sumthing like a friend or a bond you share. The 'human' you inhabit is capable of it's own 'personality traits' like the.. 'fight or flight' instinct is one among those traits. The human body and soul have a connection for the 'duration' of the human life-time. Maybe the concept of your 'reality in this 3rd density humand body' is not a 'creation' of your soul or soulgroup but rather you created a connection in 3rd density to perceive and experience in 3rd density.

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    Thumbs up Re: Does the soul exist?

    Quote Posted by noxon medem (here)
    - Soul
    in my opinion, it not only exist,
    it shapes the physical and mental presence
    of its every manifestation.
    - And
    it has a memory of its own, of
    apex experiences throughout
    its eternal being.
    Essence



    - So
    take it slow, anyhow.

    Very well said. Thank you.

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