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Thread: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

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    United States Avalon Member sirdipswitch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    Buddha said: "The ultimate Ignorance, is to reject something without knowing anything about it... and then refusing to research it for yourself."

    I have, over the years learned this to be a true statement.

    I have over the years, having learned of this form of meditation many years ago, (and through my own research) there is much written both pro and con of the Rainbow Meditation.

    However, during my research I also found evidence of Tibetan Monks that lived happy fullfilling lives of more than 400 years.

    After having done the research myself... for myself... I chose not to sit on top of a frozen mountain, in a sealed room, wraped in animal skins, waiting for my body to return to dust, hoping to find my rainbow. chuckle chuckle.

    I discovered Hawaiian Huna, (which to me offers a far better path for life)... and used it to help "find my rainbow". (Make that "Jump to Light Speed"...as I like to call it.) ccc.

    I have also learned over many years of personal research... that a good healthy "Skepticism"... is not fruitfull. cc.
    Love, Peace, Humor
    sirdipswitch


    " A little knowledge, is a dangerous thing... so is a lot."
    - Albert Einstein -

    "Please, Do NOT, believe a word that I say, for this is my journey not yours. Go do your own research. Listen to no-one. Find YOUR own Truth. As "I" did." "It is all just a Game, play it as you will."
    -sirdipswitch-

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    I do not doubt that there is indeed incredibly deep meditative state(s) where a person drops their heartbeat down to the bare minimum to sustain life (sort of like a hibernation state.) I also don't doubt that it might be possible to remain in that state for maybe a week without taking in water (if the climate was such that the skin was not giving off much water.) I could even stretch (my belief in the possibility of) that state to be maintained up to maybe 3 weeks if all conditions were absolutely perfect (no water loss from the body at all, and such an extremely low metabolic rate that life could be maintained.)

    However, this mummified corpse is said to be 200 years old, meaning he died about 199.98 years ago. "Alive" and "dead" have clinical meanings and clearly, the EKG and ECG readings on this mummy would read the same as any old corpse - flatline, ad infinitum.

    Personally, I find it a bit disrespectful for anyone to declare this guy to be one step away from being a Buddha, as his eternal spirit has left this body behind, and he (the spirit) is already "one with everything", and not one step away. But all of that is my belief, not scientifically provable fact. I think the work of Michael Newton is as close to scientific study of afterlife as can be conducted, and many people - not just mainstream scientists - would scoff at Newton's findings too.

    Dennis


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    Australia Avalon Member panopticon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    Dzogchen practice for realisation of the Rainbow Body is essentially based primarily on living in the moment with full realisation of ones surroundings.

    I am unaware of practices within Dzogchen (in either the Buddhist or Bon traditions) that do otherwise (that doesn't mean they don't exist of course).

    The achievement of the Rainbow Body is an end of life transition. In most cases the practitioner enters into a meditative state prior to death and the body is left alone.

    After a week or so (in most cases) the body of the practitioner (who has successfully achieved the Rainbow Body) will have disappeared with the exception of hair, finger nails etc.

    There's more to it but that's the readers digest version for those interested. I've written about it before at Avalon.

    -- Pan
    Last edited by panopticon; 5th February 2015 at 17:25.
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    Quote Posted by sirdipswitch (here)
    Buddha said: "The ultimate Ignorance, is to reject something without knowing anything about it... and then refusing to research it for yourself."
    Unless there's really nothing to know about it, except if you resource to belief? But then it's not knowing, is it? Knowing...Believing...Different things.

    As far as knowledge goes; I'm 100% positive that there isn't a single spark of life in that old carcass.

    In my opinion, religion itself is the ultimate ignorance: Accepting something without knowing anything about it...and ignoring everything that may contradict it. What's there to know about faith, anyway? Nothing...

    Ignorance is an essential part of religion, specially nowadays when we have easy access to so much information.

    Religion, from the begging, was started to fill the gaps of the unknown. Thousands of years later, it refuses to leave our minds...Even now that we know the answers to most questions responsible for its begining in the first place.

    Just my two cents.

    Raf.
    Last edited by RMorgan; 5th February 2015 at 17:38.

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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    Quote Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
    Quote Posted by RMorgan (here)
    No, of course not, he's not dead.

    Look at his soft skin, his lively eyes and his silky hair! Does he look dead to you? Looks like he's about to get up and start rapping, yo! lol

    Sorry for joking guys; I don't mean to offend anyone but this one is so funny!

    I'm pretty curious to see how this "expert" achieved the conclusion that this mummy is somehow alive.

    Be suspicious whenever someone evokes the word expert, specially without naming names, showing any data or credentials. This is the typical appeal to authority fallacy, commonly used as an attempt to falsely provide a sense credibility to something.

    Cheers,

    Raf.
    The expert has actually done some research into the many documented cases (many thousands, actually) of people who have achieved the Rainbow Body, you have not. This is a real thing. Look it up. There are many books on the subject. This body is not "mummified". This is what happens when people attain the Rainbow Body. This is one of the highest attainments in Vajrayana Buddhism. It is said that the person doesn't die in the usual way, it's just that, during meditation (which for this guy is apparently still in progress), their light body liberates itself (which creates a visual spectacle, one which many people have witnessed) and then they can go wherever they please. But out of compassion such a person will most likely choose to be reborn on the Earth again to help awaken humanity. They are not expecting the physical body to come back to life though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_body

    Thank you for taking the time to explain this more fully. I fully understand what you said, respectfully I disagree. As we judge life and death, no matter the cause of his death, be it violence, sickness, old age or in this case meditation, it's still death. Should they then choose out of compassion to be reborn is unfortunately a very subjective opinion. They, like the rest of us pupils, return in a new body, therefore, by definition they leave their old vessel. The vessel is dead. The definition of dead is that the body will or cannot be re animated... In my humble opinion, dead is dead, the parrot is dead and this person is dead... N

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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    If I'm interpreting this correctly, they're not saying that the body itself is still physically alive, but that the person who occupied that body is still alive because they obtained the end result of the "rainbow body of light" meditation technique as described in old Asian spiritual texts.

    There are a lot of different traditions about this kind of thing, not only in Asia, and even in modern America we have the OBE researcher Robert Monroe who concluded that a person could voluntarily leave their body to die, and move on to another realm, by practicing astral projection.



    I suppose an important distinction to make here is the difference between the body and the soul, and the idea that "you" are not the body; you are the soul.

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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    I don't know anything about rainbow bodies or a state of tukdam - except that whatever they are I'll never experience them in this life at least. But I think we may be at cross purposes due to the way the article is written. As far as I know when the body dies the soul departs and the alternative would be pretty horrible to contemplate. So when the heart stops pumping the body dies. There may still be metabolic processes going on but the soul has left the building. I can accept that it may be possible in deep meditation for the soul to simply leave the body - and at other times - but what's left is a shell. I don't know that it's correct anyway to describe the remains as being in deep meditation - bodies don't meditate per se do they - it's the occupant that does the meditating. In terms of what we define as dead this 200 year old mummy is as a dead as anything can be. Might be some DNA samples but no metabolic processes at all. But it may well be that the "expert" is not saying that the mummy itself is still alive in some sense, but describing how it got to the state it's in - though how one could determine that as opposed to, say, having frozen to death is beyond me. So I thing we may be somewhat at cross purposes as to what Dr Kerzin is saying and what the article reports him as saying. In fact if you read the article it's not clear that those are his words or the words of someone else. I read the blog and see I wasn't the only one reminded of the dead parrot sketch.

    Bertrand Russell said that Witgenstein was a fool because he would not admit there was not a rhinosaurus in the room.

    No he's not he's just resting.

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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    Quote Posted by Maunagarjana (here)
    Alright, Raf.....you want to know what Dr Barry Kerzin bases his assertion on? Perhaps you could contact him directly. It's the internet age. And since I'm not a lazy skeptic, I just typed his name into a search engine and found his facebook page and twitter account. It's amazing what a little initiative can do, eh? It might be a good idea to ask him directly. This is what I'm talking about. If you wonder about something, go straight to the source.

    https://www.facebook.com/barry.kerzin
    https://twitter.com/barrykerzin
    Dear friend,

    So, the lazy skeptic (me) asked him via Facebook and he was kind enough to answer.

    Here's it is:



    Moral of the story nº1: Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

    Moral of the story nº2: You don't need a figure of authority to confirm logic and common sense.


    Case closed?

    Cheers,

    Raf.
    Last edited by RMorgan; 7th February 2015 at 17:19.

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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    Philosophers have concluded that the universe is the product of ONE mind, all matter is actually thought or mind; therefore, our bodies are thought also. In the case of the above-mentioned process, the mind of the medatator is deconstructing his mental body to exist in a more perfect (closer) existence to the mind of the creator from which he emanated.

    In the case of the person found who was Not Dead and Not Alive, from the information on the Russian website, I concluded that he was sent forward physically in time to deliver a message to worlds in the future about the possible destruction of planet earth by the Destoryer.

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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    Guru Rimpoche says : if someone is not talking , he's technically ..not alive . An empty shall .
    A yogi who attained state of highest knowledge or the state that immediately precedes attainment that will automatically follow his physical death can do so by any means .

    There's a city in northern Norway , town of name Longyearbyen http://www.johnnyjet.com/2012/04/12-...hernmost-city/
    where no one is allowed to die .. why .. corpses in that frozen land were never disintegrating and it frightened some people a lot .


    In many other ways , this seems to be one rare finding and holy relic that will hopefully stand timeless witness for many generations to come before it too turns to the dust of this earth .

    Peace to all gurus and deities



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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    In matters of faith and spirituality, proof is an offensive weapon.

    Spiritually motivated people don't really need proof, they have personal experience and that is enough. Once that experience has been had proof is unnecessary and the path moves onward step by step, experience by experience.

    If you reach a state where you could prove some or other such spiritual experience to another, the reason you would not do it is out of respect for their freewill and freedom of choice.
    Last edited by Anchor; 7th February 2015 at 23:49. Reason: clarified (added spirutal)
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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

     


    Here is another Moral to add to Raf's -- Read the articles carefully watching for spin and word trickery ...

    Here is what the article actually said:
    Quote
    Dr Barry Kerzin, a famous Buddhist monk and a physician to the Dalai Lama, said: 'I had the privilege to take care of some meditators who were in a tukdam state.

    'If the person is able to remain in this state for more than three weeks - which rarely happens - his body gradually shrinks, and in the end all that remains from the person is his hair, nails, and clothes. Usually in this case, people who live next to the monk see a rainbow that glows in the sky for several days. This means that he has found a 'rainbow body'. This is the highest state close to the state of Buddha'.
    He is clearly describing something entirely different than a 200 yr old "mummified man".


    He didn't make one claim that the particular monk in question that is 200 years old is in this state. Yet most people who read the article will conclude that he did. Even the man himself responded to Raf and said the quote was taken out of context. I could see that immediately from reading the article.

    Publications do have to follow rules about claims for the most part to avoid liability, so they often rely on a little word trickery that is perfectly valid, but the non-discerning reader will be fooled by the ways the words are presented. Pay attention to the wording in articles and claims.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 7th February 2015 at 23:25.
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    Default Re: Mummified monk is ‘not dead’ and in rare meditative state, says expert

    By what criteria is this guy considered alive? Can they pull blood? Is there any measurable metabolic activity? Is the sole criteria for recognizing a phenomenon the presence of a good looking corpse?

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