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Thread: Religious truth and conditions for believing

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    Belgium Avalon Member Violet's Avatar
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    Default Religious truth and conditions for believing

    What is truth in religion for a believer?

    I was thinking about that today. It's a bit foggy, bear with me.

    Some believers will say: I know, I just feel it, and, of course, I believe it.
    They might also make links with earthly existence.

    Some people change religion after they found a truth in another religion that was lacking in their previous religion.

    Truth as a feeling or truth as an evidence-based thing. For example, if science confirms holy scriptures, or in historical miracles (which left archaeological evidence) or perhaps in personal miracles. When you are helpless and you cry out for help, a sign and you are helped and you deduce from whatever the sign was, to which religion you should turn.

    This last thing is particularly interesting because some people receive signs towards one religion while others receive signs that indicate truth in an entirely different religion. And if this observation then is a valid enough reason to do away with religion altogether. Or maybe the sign-receiver misinterpreted his/her sign.

    Depending on the fervour of believers, this evidence-based method is also used to convince others.

    But does one need evidence to believe? Can you believe without evidence?

    And hence, what is truth? How can you find it? And what is truth in religion?

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    religions are cults woven into society to control them and keep them from truth , the truth is there is no higher power than what's inside you ... a tiny piece of Creation evolving and learning and one day re-uniting back with Creation from where it came ... The Universe always looks for variance ... it's time to leave the age of beliefs and enter the age of knowledge ... anything to keep people from looking in the mirror and confronting themselves , and taking responsibility for their thoughts, actions , and feelings ... just my opinion ...
    Raiding the Matrix One Mind at a Time ...

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    there are many things to consider, and Violet, nice thread

    To some people "religion" (or faith) is like a mountain.

    Liberal folks (some of them) tend to see the mountain in 3-D; you can approach the mountain from any side. It's roughly possible given the right perspective and equipment.

    I guess to me, using that picture, I see that some conservatives might miss the fact that they've not only chosen the easiest path to the top, but also deny that other paths work and try their best to block them off, lol. At least in USA. (imo). Speculation. In terms of denomination, brand of faith, labels. (It's kind of like shopping in the USA, picking a religion lol).



    But to speak in personal terms,
    there's *no way* any two people are going to have the same experience.
    Life has too many weird turns for a total "glove/mold" take on religion.


    Many people underestimate the patience of the essence folks call "God"/"divine"/"Providence".

    Because of the pressures of society, some people tend to view themselves as worthless (which in turn hurts the society more); to me, many faiths play a mending role that restore to the individual some of that natural self-worth that a negative life experience can erode.

    Of course, a very dogmatic/strict/odd faith can erode the self in a negative way.
    It's interesting that some of the same faiths whose writings espouse absolute self-awareness are led by figures who greatly diminish the power/influence of the individual. By this I mean churches who buy into corporate movements or support a political agenda rather than a spiritual one. Also I am referring to cults/offshoots of popular religion that end up like a gang, where one guru reaps the benefit at the expense of the followers. No good!



    One time, I drew a picture of Mercury for an acquaintance; in one hand he was holding a torch and in the other he was holding pure fire.

    When asked what this meant, I told the man, "the torch in the right hand is the establishment and its influence/power/what it has preserved over the ages" and the left hand "holds the power of spontaneous creation, the raw potential".


    We both had a lot to think about.

    Also my OT (Old Testament) professor at my first college told us all about Marduk etc., which confused some of the kids and excited the others.

    Carl Jung was able to appreciate the underlying forms in religious practice.
    He saw through to the common symbols, hopes and dreams, and the places of power associated with faith.

    It doesn't mean he was a religious man, but he certainly pursued his interests like a "zealot", to use a religious term



    p.s. Solomon said to search after wisdom and knowledge as if mining for precious silver. And Christ said not to waste your talents, that our gifts were given to be used and not hidden for any reason.

    I think that leaves a lot of room for freedom and interpretation.
    Last edited by Tesla_WTC_Solution; 15th March 2015 at 18:45.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Quote Posted by Violet (here)

    But does one need evidence to believe? Can you believe without evidence?

    And hence, what is truth? How can you find it? And what is truth in religion?
    Thanks Violet, interesting questionning!, I gladly bring in my little opinion!

    Do we need evidence to believe, in my case, it kind of help, having a logical mindset, I find it easier with evidence. But, like anything else, there probably exceptions to the rule.

    The truth that I live with are the essential for life, the AIR that I breath is a LifeForce that is an absolute to life. The WATER that I drink is another absolute that can't be denied. The EARTH that I live on, without it, I'm not there. The FIRE that heat, cook, metamorphose matter or composition of matter into something else is also part of the miracle. The LIGHT that reside in each and everyone of us. The CREATOR of all this, we use the word God because we don't have a better word is also unquestionable. So these are my truths, and I hold dearly to them for survival.

    Unfortunately, Religions were established to control people, so I stay away from this type of control.

    The best to you!

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Tesla, the worthlessness that pressures from society bring upon people only seemingly gets restored by some (I don't want to target specific) religions.

    Some beliefs can make their believers feel pretty miserable as well. Other beliefs make happy believers. Unhappy believers think happy believers are choosing the easy way out. No heaven without suffering. And so on.

    Interdimensional travellers have their own set of experiences.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Deega (here)

    The best to you!
    And the other best to you!

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Quote Posted by Violet (here)
    Tesla, the worthlessness that pressures from society bring upon people only seemingly gets restored by some (I don't want to target specific) religions.

    Some beliefs can make their believers feel pretty miserable as well. Other beliefs make happy believers. Unhappy believers think happy believers are choosing the easy way out. No heaven without suffering. And so on.

    Interdimensional travellers have their own set of experiences.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Deega (here)

    The best to you!
    And the other best to you!
    Indeed,
    but I cannot truly speak for the billions of other people on earth who have beliefs and opinions
    sad thing is many religious folk don't think it's their place to enter the discussion...

    i.e. Tolkien and C.S Lewis, good examples of very lively, vivacious minds, trying to unravel life's mysteries and unite a few of them with purpose and meaning...
    perhaps they made mistakes and left things to be grossly misinterpreted,
    but as examples of Christian men (to name one modern religion) they were pretty ok.
    I heard Tolkien was the one who ministered to Lewis and not vice versa,
    seems like the opposite of what people might assume,
    that the more secular/worldly man would be able to witness to the passionate man.


    lol


    to many charitable people (better than me!) life and the kingdom of God,
    they are like a chain of helping hands, that carry the world from the past to the future.




    p.s. what is your take on folks who were abused due to religious upbringing then choose to omit the spiritual aspect of life? i.e. how to we minister to our kids when religious left a bad taste?
    how to balance the pendulum?
    Last edited by Tesla_WTC_Solution; 15th March 2015 at 20:47.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    I cover this subject extensively in THE EYE OF RA. Most religions and religious sects were created either directly or indirectly by what we would call "extra-terrestrials". There are multiple ET groups involved with this programming so it is by definition a conspiracy.

    It is my experience and observation that there is something that we could call objective truth. However, due to the ET conspiracy (ETC), it is very hard to see. It is my observation and experience that the more I discover some truth, the more truth becomes available to research that I did not see before. The matrix is like the proverbial onion--you have to peel off the layers to get closer to the core. And it is a very long process and from my experience cannot be done without thoroughly exploring who we (individually) have been before and how we got here in this time and place. And that necessarily involves a lot of past life research.

    TLC

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Beliefs exist when and because knowing is lost . If you lack - or think you lack- precise version of truth ( factography , just about anything ) automatically - or less ,
    you replace it with belief .
    Of course you may say that we are not meant to be aware of all the facts .. ever .. that's also true but the amount of knowledge necessary for our happiness can increase and the 'fog' of beliefs can be dropped ,

    so in resultant state we call ourselves 'beings of knowledge' rather than 'people of faith' .

    What is your aim 'in this incarnation' is an important question .


    On Earth, people keep 'rediscovering' themselves all the time , partially for the fact that they often forget they did it .. yesterday and before too .
    So you can blame memory loss .. for lost knowing and formation of 'primordial belief' .

    If it's 'good belief' , you can find your 'knowing' the next day too . If it's wrong belief - it may also take you to impossible ends simply to show you you were wrong .


    My 2 cents

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Hehe the fine lines of religion and ET can fillet even the most delicate

    I don't really know what I believe, please refer to Ozzy Osborne
    (Actually most people on PA are still figuring it out and that's ok right?)

    ____________________

    I think part of growing up (have not achieved it personally) is learning that the pursuit of happiness isn't necessarily the same as the pursuit of goodness.
    Job might chime in on that, he's a person who was successful and knew a lot, but what he knew didn't save him from suffering a lot of earthly pain.

    IF the story of Job has truth of course

    I guess Madeleine L'Engle made that point in her book "A Wind in the Door",
    pointing out that a being rooted in the truth of love finds a whole new dimension of reality in which to exist,
    without "moving" in the physical sense one bit...

    And somethin tells me Madeleine was fairly open minded as far as religion is concerned. @@

    yet she used many Biblical characters in her stories (along with MANY from other faiths) to make a point about priorities.
    I think she wanted to make the point that the universe is a house shared by many people of many faiths,
    and activity/thought/life is as important as truth.

    they can't exist separately

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Quote I think part of growing up (have not achieved it personally) is learning that the pursuit of happiness isn't necessarily the same as the pursuit of goodness.
    I was recently reviewing my own old article , the first ever published on the topic of my Bodhgaya ET Encounter , that all by kindness of BJ Booth on ufocasebook website .
    I felt the need for preface , an introduction to the meaning of why ..this message .. why it's happened .. see here ..

    Quote This recollection is dedicated to all beings. Especially to those beings who constantly struggle in endless circles of this world believing that their own children will be happy.
    There are two kinds of happiness and two kinds of sorrow. The first of them is touching our bodies, the other one our mind. And their mutual harmony is needed to reach the shores of happiness and immortality. Our physical body seems to function as medium of our mind. Our words connect both of them together.

    If you look around you find out that all of us are searching for happiness and perfection even though the various means we are using makes us different and special. We live in colourful world full of contrasts and so often we have to ask: Why? If we stop asking usual somebody else starts to do so. If we are fine with small answers we usually succeed in the task of passing through this world without any accident. Even that is not sure.

    If we search for big and true answers we have to admit finally that infinity of our soul contains infinite number of questions and answers especially those which are unanswerable. Anyway we do consider ourselves intelligent beings, based on their knowledge and desiring understanding. Where else should be hidden knowledge of anything than in the knower? What sense of life would we believe if we do not trust ourselves that we are able to repair our mistakes and realize dreams and ideas of our soul? Do we ever question our mind where do they altogether come from, those endless fantasies and dreamlands?

    There are plenty of accepted views on the nature of our reality and each of them seems to describe other face of life. There is theosophical view for people who believe that we are created by Truth which is out of our considerations and which can not be touched. Then there is philosophical view for those thinkers who believe that truth is created by their own thinking, otherwise it would never exist. Still others believe in philosophers and theosophists and they don’t dare to have another opinion. Both sides agree at least on that it is important to live as distinguished and wise people. It is important as long as they agree…

    If you by chance ask for truth there are many distinguished and functioning answers I can offer. And both you and I will feel that we are capable of great understanding. We will talk about truth which is unspeakable, which is more than this and that, which is invisible and unbearable and nonmaterial. We will feel that we are talking about real truth. It is also possible to come to conclusion that there is nothing such as concrete and solid truth and that it is not to be searched for and found. And we will feel as sovereign and wise people.

    If you hold the opinion that truth is similar to any person, animal or flower, earlier or later you will meet with difficulties because all of these items are perishable. The only thing really infinite is our hope and faith....

    http://www.ufocasebook.com/2002spaceshipencounter.html
    Looking back after almost 9 years of perpetual struggle to bring the subtle truth forwards or better say , to the right hands ..and avoid the worst pitfalls

    I'd add the following :

    no matter how much we are aware of /or believe in the Unity of 'path and a goal' , means and objectives , the journey to get things to the 'right place'
    in human world is like drunkards way home .

    One great friend of mine who meditates regularly but has very busy job otherwise told me that Spirit spoke to him one day and told him 'you be either right or happy' .

    The trick is .. we want the best .. to be both right and happy and in fact, can't be happy unless am also right

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)
    Beliefs exist when and because knowing is lost.
    Wow, you said so much with that short sentence.

    We often underestimate the astounding power of belief.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    ...............
    Last edited by Hod8; 16th March 2015 at 01:47.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    I'm not sure what you mean by abuse, Tesla, is it physical or a mental trauma inflicted by too orthodox upbringing?
    Both are appalling either way.

    When these youth throw away their spirituality together with their former religion then I think that's a missed chance. The spirituality, and believing in more. In the end, though, they have to make the choice themselves.

    It's important to have a good understanding of what you are doing in this life.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Religions are a construct created to "guide" or "control" beings who cannot do it for themselves, for a time. After that time, religions should be thrown away and as Agape said so well, knowledge regained.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Quote Posted by ghostrider (here)
    religions are cults woven into society to control them and keep them from truth , the truth is there is no higher power than what's inside you ... a tiny piece of Creation evolving and learning and one day re-uniting back with Creation from where it came ... The Universe always looks for variance ... it's time to leave the age of beliefs and enter the age of knowledge ... anything to keep people from looking in the mirror and confronting themselves , and taking responsibility for their thoughts, actions , and feelings ... just my opinion ...
    <SWISH> Nailed it.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    I think religions are popular and open to abuse because they provide a comforting set of truths. Black and white, good and evil, rules to follow with an end goal. If they were "designed" as a system of control or not I cannot say. They have certainly been used and exploited to that effect through the centuries and to this day. They work because people want it.

    I was raised in a charismatic, evangelical church cult until the age of 13 when there was a big bust up and my family left. Looking back I can see so many of the church members back then and to this day wanted someone else to tell them "the truth", to take responsibility for their moral choices, explain the beauty and horror in the world, to tell them what to think and do. To some, absolutes are a great comfort.

    I see similar desire for absolute truths in the children I work with. I am a storyteller and children always, without fail want to know, "Is it true?!" They want someone to tell them, to feed them a truth rather than finding one for themselves. Adults aren't so different.

    In most matters there isn't a black and white. It's about perspective/ perception and, things are complicated! Black and white is easier to think about than a universe of ever changing colours in every shade seen and unseen!

    Where belief comes from? I really don't know! I have beliefs, some with evidence and "facts" to back them up, some are just things I believe because people or sources I trust have told me and others I just...feel. (A bit vague I know) That just feeling, feeling seems internal and is possibly a combination of logical thought, intuition and some other sense I can't quite put my finger on.

    In the end I like David Icke's "infinite love is the only truth" It doesn't really address the mundane every day truths like are my socks really worn out or is this pencil really blue, rather I like to think, infinite love is all that matters.

    Find your own truths but spread and share love in all you do.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Religions create fear. (not all though)
    They state God is out there and will judge you when you die---living is difficult enough without fearing what happens after death of the body.

    Spirituality --(enlightenment) seems to me to contain Truth.
    Nothing to fear---God is within you and in your true nature You Are That.
    Only God is---(One without a second)
    What could be more simple and of course reassuring?
    Just a case of applying one self to find Truth.
    Apply yourself and That which you are looking for will find you.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    How to convert an atheist

    In the following video Darren Brown takes an atheist and guides her to have a religious experience. At time markers 20:40 to 23:14 and 36:00 to 39:30 are the portions where he interacts with her directly. The power of suggestion, hypnotic language and NLP anchoring are the tools he used. I have seen these tools used in churches.


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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Quote Posted by ghostrider (here)
    religions are cults woven into society to control them and keep them from truth , the truth is there is no higher power than what's inside you ... a tiny piece of Creation evolving and learning and one day re-uniting back with Creation from where it came ... The Universe always looks for variance ... it's time to leave the age of beliefs and enter the age of knowledge ... anything to keep people from looking in the mirror and confronting themselves , and taking responsibility for their thoughts, actions , and feelings ... just my opinion ...
    What is every religion at its core? A belief system. Are people who go to church the only ones who have belief systems? I think I just read a bit of yours. If you preach it and enough people believe, you will one day be known as the creator of a religion. Just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Religious truth and conditions for believing

    Quote Posted by OBwan (here)
    How to convert an atheist

    In the following video Darren Brown takes an atheist and guides her to have a religious experience. At time markers 20:40 to 23:14 and 36:00 to 39:30 are the portions where he interacts with her directly. The power of suggestion, hypnotic language and NLP anchoring are the tools he used. I have seen these tools used in churches.

    Time marker 18/19 minutes is also useful to be able to follow build-up.

    At 30 min. he speaks about evidence in relation to religion, and truth in religion.

    Though I don't agree with all he says and it's very disturbing the (superior) way participants' (minds) are (voluntarily) being played with, it was an interesting view.

    It's also a simpler version of some theories we have here in the conspiracy corner.

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