Time is NOT an Illusion

[araucaria]

I think I would rather say that illusions are real. At least my beautiful illusions are really real and a small minority have some nasty illusions that in my illusion are not really real – just illusions of illusions. Time is astride both categories; linear time is real handy in order to pick off the illusory illusions one by one; timelessness is best when I am tired of that game and feel ready to push aside the whole job lot of them.

[Jake]

Ah! I missed something.. where did we agree as to the nature of reality.. Reality is subjective, and only in the eye of the beholder..

Time is like a particle... There are no such thing as particles.. It is all in our minds. Each aspect of an (alleged) atom ONLY exist in realationship to each other.. THE key ingredient that 'pulls all of the others into existence', is a point of Observation. Without that point of observation, the Atoms family never come together to create a (alleged) partical... Physicality is a complete illusion. It is happening in our minds.. Our minds make it 'real'.. See I am being careful not to confuse the words 'reality' and 'physicality'..

I posit that it is the same with time. Time is a probability that coheres to physicality,, and like the Atoms family,, does not exist outside the mind of an observer.. All that really means is that there are different 'sets of physics' that exist simultaneously, , and it is merely a matter of perspective (point of view/observation) that sets them apart.. I am okay with all of that..

I think if we are to attempt to understand what it means to navigate in multiple dimensions like this,, we are going to have to take a good hard look at the word REALITY,, and decide wether or not it is safe to assume that Reality is 'fixed'.. There are no straight lines, no fixed points,, space is curved and time is NOT consistent.

To answer an earlier question,, I have often found myself beyond my body,, rrrreeeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyyy trying to focus on the 'passing of moments', but it is exhausting,, and it isn't required....

jake

[Omni]

Posted by Jake (here)
Ah! I missed something.. where did we agree as to the nature of reality.. Reality is subjective, and only in the eye of the beholder..

I was just going by the definition of the word reality. Being that the word reality means that which is real. So by the definition of the word it cannot be an illusion.

To me reality is not subjective. There is an objective reality going on IMO. It's our job to align to the objective reality in discovering the truth. Reality is not the subjective part, it is one's perception of reality that is subjective IMHO.

[protoflex]

Posted by Omniverse (here)
The definition of the word reality is what is real. So reality cannot be an illusion. I think the proper way to say it under that context would be: "there is no reality"...

Saying reality is an illusion is basically saying there is no reality. I disagree with that idea personally. There are truths to reality, and there are illusions IMO. To say the whole thing is an illusion I'm not sure allows for finding the finer details about illusions/truths within reality if there is no such thing as truth.

Of course the definition of 'reality' implies that the term describes something that is real, but i never said it wasn't 'real'. I just said it is an illusion, and the illusion is very 'real'. Just not in a sense of what we typically would like to believe from our own mind's perspective. That's a misconception in of itself to call something an illusion, and then try to say it isn't real. If it wasn't 'real', then we wouldn't see an illusion. The term 'illusion' is defined as... [a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.]

Nothing in that definition says it isn't 'real'.

I believe you're confusing yourself, and what our perceptive realities reveal to us in our present state.

[InCiDeR]

- How long is a thought?


...or the time inbetween thoughts?
Do all my thoughts regarding a matter occur simultaneously?
That would probably give me a nice little jacket with the arms wrapped around my back

But maybe they happen simultaneously

I have a conscious thought here
in this perceived reality
meanwhile
another version of me
have a different thought
at the same time

If you believe in infinity and multiverses
that means I have infinite numbers of thoughts
at the present moment
In a way, I already thought about everything


so relax


But if they do not happen simultaneously
there will be a time frame between two thoughts
So even if the perceived reality is an illusion
and therefore the concept of time in that reality
also would be an illusion
we still have to answer my first question.


- How long is a thought?


Maybe the perceived reality changes in entanglement with my thoughts
When the conscious thought moves in time
so does the perceived reality
meaning no time have passed per se....
or...
has it?

---

I guess it all comes down to definitions
the very core of the language
the essence of communication and understanding
and finally conscioussness, existence and to be... or not to be (pun intended)

Words.... what are they?

The definition of words I figured is not only about the definitions in itself.
Many times it also have a cultural value.
I mean USA probably means something different to a person living in USA
than a person living elsewhere.

And even the most simplest words are hard to explain ... really explain... to another person.

For example the word subway (or metro in some countries)

Full Definition of SUBWAY

: an underground way: as
a : a passage under a street (as for pedestrians, power cables, or water or gas mains)
b : a usually electric underground railway
c : underpass
— subway intransitive verb

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subway

Did you picture that definition before your eyes when I wrote subway the first time?

I didn't. I saw the train itself.

When I lived in the countryside. We had no subway.
Therefore the word subway had a different meaning or I had a different personal definition.
I just pictured the train in an underground tunnel in my mind.

But when I moved to a big city the definition changed
It grow and became so much more than a definition
that could be put into a simple sentence.

The personal definition became littered with memories, expectations, emotions, feelings.
The simple word subway lived by itself as an organic entity
Something I realised I could not fully explain to someone else.

Not even to the person sharing the same seat in the train
because that persons definition would probably be different...
a composition of his/hers whole history and relation to the word.

---

Time again
to go back in time
to the word time

How do we personally define the word time and its concept.
You will probably get a different answer depending if you ask a scientist, theolog, spiritualist or...
anyone else.

Time seems to be correlated and intertwined with
both the concept of reality and the concept of existence.

I wrote this about existence in another thread:

The limits of the language and use of words collapse the discussion of Solipsism into itself.

Philosophy explanation: The theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.

This explanation use the word self. By using the word self in the explanation, the explanation insinuates that something exists that is not self. Otherwise would not the word self exists.


Does "existence" exist?

In some statements, existence is implied without being mentioned. The statement "A bridge crosses the Thames at Hammersmith" cannot just be about a bridge, the Thames, and Hammersmith. It must be about "existence" as well.

On the other hand, the statement "A bridge crosses the Styx at Limbo" has the same form, but while in the first case we understand a real bridge in the real world made of stone or brick, what "existence" would mean in the second case is less clear.


Does exist exists?

Do I exist just because there "exists" a word in our language - Exist - that I/we agreed upon?

In so, if the word "Exist" exists there must be a common sense of "exist" in my/our body/mind/spirit complex otherwise the word "Exist" and the common sense of it have no meaning and therefore does not exist.

---

Pof... InCiDeR cease to exist in a logical quantum cloud loop that might or might not exist

so.... would time exist without an existence of a consciousness?
Will a consciousness arise in any system within time
so time in itself can be discovered and defined?
or vice verse?


That is why I wrote:

Time is

where it ought to be

not so much

elsewhere

it in itself

hasn't got the time....

the time of illusion.

But the question remains



- How long is a thought?

[protoflex]

A thought is how ever long you want it to be. We define time based on each day. Humans use time to record moments, and schedule future events. In a sense, we created the future before it even got here, but our brains won't reveal the future to us until we let the day progress.

The reason time is a misconception is because reality is an illusion. Not vice versa. If perhaps reality was actually undeniably in a fixed form of existence with or without our perception that it exists at all to begin with, then why have scientists discovered that an atom or target of observation changes the more we look closer at it, and the more we go down the rabbit hole?

The universe is flux because it's a projection that we created. Atoms or other matter will undergo instant transformation the more we focus in on it. Experiments only see this in very strict observatory practices, but it has been found to be true. Most people refuse to believe this because they believe what they see regardless of whether or not they've looked further into it. Like the 'Big Bang Theory'. They believe this theory as fact. How can it be fact? It's a theory.

[Omni]

Posted by protoflex (here)

Posted by Omniverse (here)
The definition of the word reality is what is real. So reality cannot be an illusion. I think the proper way to say it under that context would be: "there is no reality"...

Saying reality is an illusion is basically saying there is no reality. I disagree with that idea personally. There are truths to reality, and there are illusions IMO. To say the whole thing is an illusion I'm not sure allows for finding the finer details about illusions/truths within reality if there is no such thing as truth.

Of course the definition of 'reality' implies that the term describes something that is real, but i never said it wasn't 'real'. I just said it is an illusion, and the illusion is very 'real'. Just not in a sense of what we typically would like to believe from our own mind's perspective. That's a misconception in of itself to call something an illusion, and then try to say it isn't real. If it wasn't 'real', then we wouldn't see an illusion. The term 'illusion' is defined as... [a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.]

Nothing in that definition says it isn't 'real'.

I believe you're confusing yourself, and what our perceptive realities reveal to us in our present state.

It is also defined as something not real someone believes. It's semantics our differences I guess...

[araucaria]

Reality is just a label we use for we know not what. When you look at how language works, you find several similar phenomena in the outside world. Take the word/notion ‘bicycle’: it is like a complex molecule that can be disassembled into its factory components (wheel, frame, chain, saddle etc.), and beyond (rim/spokes/tyre…) to its atoms (iron, carbon), and beyond that you can continue until you have something you can send spinning in circles at CERN to smash it into even smaller pieces. When you get down to topspin and backspin, you find yourself back in the ‘real’ world playing a game of tennis

Or you can go in the opposite direction in a ‘big pharma’ (or ‘holistic healing’) perspective of increasingly large and complex molecules to heal the planet: vocabulary like city or civilization, galaxy, universe. Or you can see it in terms of nuclear fission/fusion, depending on whether you look at a breakaway civilization or peaceful accommodation of alien civilizations. Words like reality cover the entire spectrum, but the corresponding notion is usually restricted to the tiny portion perceptible to the majority somewhere in the middle.

If you take the word ‘reality’ itself, its definition is tautological: ‘the state of being real’. But the word ‘real’ is defined primarily in terms of things it is not: ‘not artificial, fraudulent, illusory or fictional; actual or authentic’ (New Penguin English Dictionary). In other words, the definition itself is precisely artificial, fraudulent, illusory or fictional; on its own terms it is unreal! Check the definition of ‘actual’: ‘existing in fact or reality’. A perfect CERN-like circularity.

Reality is simply a blank cheque, it is worth exactly the amount you put into it. But paper money is only a fictional substitute for real exchangeable commodities and by definition only gains ‘currency’ through being exchangeable. Hence reality implies consensus: it is whatever we agree it is going to be. This means in turn that the artificial, fraudulent, illusory or fictional dictionary definition is absolutely correct: that is indeed what we take the word to mean. Moreover, language itself is simply a blank cheque-book: words only gain currency through meaning whatever we agree they are going to mean.

This is where we are at. What is jabberwocky? What is time? Like anything else, it is whatever fictional substitute for a real phenomenon we agree the word designates. Like any other word, its reference is the elastic glue that pulls everything apart and holds everything together.

[Finefeather]

Posted by protoflex (here)
The proper way to put it is... "time is a misconception".

Reality is an illusion.

If you mean 'misconception' to be..."a view or opinion that is incorrect because it is based on faulty thinking or understanding.".... then you need to qualify your "time is a misconception" statement... because it would be a misconception, on your part, to state that everyone is thinking incorrectly or has no understanding of time...so...time can only be a misconception when there is faulty thinking or lack of understanding. When there is knowledge and consciousness of time there is no misconception.

'Reality is an illusion' is actually also only a misconception when and if we have no idea what reality is. What an ignorant person...and I mean no disrespect to anyone...calls reality may very well be an illusion...but a 'knower' of 'real' reality is not fooled by the illusion which some people call reality.

So time is only a misconception to some...and...reality is only an illusion if you are ignorant of what reality really is


Take care
Ray

[ZooLife]

Posted by InCiDeR (here)
- How long is a thought?

[Johnny]

I have never heard of this guy before this morning, I think what he has to say, has relevance to this thread:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6NYEthP0rh4

The first 2 minutes are very silent

Johnny

[protoflex]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

Posted by protoflex (here)
The proper way to put it is... "time is a misconception".

Reality is an illusion.

If you mean 'misconception' to be..."a view or opinion that is incorrect because it is based on faulty thinking or understanding.".... then you need to qualify your "time is a misconception" statement... because it would be a misconception, on your part, to state that everyone is thinking incorrectly or has no understanding of time...so...time can only be a misconception when there is faulty thinking or lack of understanding. When there is knowledge and consciousness of time there is no misconception.

'Reality is an illusion' is actually also only a misconception when and if we have no idea what reality is. What an ignorant person...and I mean no disrespect to anyone...calls reality may very well be an illusion...but a 'knower' of 'real' reality is not fooled by the illusion which some people call reality.

So time is only a misconception to some...and...reality is only an illusion if you are ignorant of what reality really is


Take care
Ray

Well, the things you are saying may be true to one person, but false for the other/others. The reason is because our minds are creating this projection/illusion. Other ppl can influence each other's reality without even realizing it. It's like i tell ppl sometimes... It's not always about being wrong or right. So if you think i'm ignorant, that may be just your opinion. Especially since that observation was based on a false reality, and not solely your own personal beliefs. Because with all due respect, just because you think the first person to state that a particular definition is to be labeled the term 'reality', doesn't mean it is a correct interpretation. As others in this thread have precisely pointed out, all language is based on loosely selected interpretations of our thoughts and perceptions.

Which is why I try my best to 'loosely' explain my ideas, because no one thought is the same, but that doesn't mean we can't figure out what each other's ideas represent. It just means we have to think about them from a wide perspective. We can't think of terms as 'non-negotiable' interpretations that have no flexibility. Like the bible says, you are only wise if you were once ignorant (or if you admit you are ignorant?). I can't quote scripture unfortunately, but i do recall numerous msg's the bible conveys.

-update-
If you expect me to 'qualify' my statement' "time is a misconception"... Then the best way to put it is:

Time was and is an attempt to regulate reality. Apparently, our bodies only respond to our consciousness as needed based on our perception of our reality. So, if a particular society or faction (for lack of better term) created a false perception, and forced us to respond to it accordingly, then chances are we very well could have been guided into this matrix for their own purposes or entertainment. Without us even knowing it. However there are glitches in the system that tell us this (reality) isn't quite what we thought it was (or is).

As you say, you think i owe you an explanation based on my statement about 'reality' being an illusion. Well... all's i can say is:

Our reality is fed to us via light. Our eyes insert information into our brain that can be interpreted in more than one way. Our dreams prove this, because light also travels through electricity, and the sensory motors in our body run off a form of electricity. Sound being the primary source of reality, which ironically, isn't governed by light. So the light you think you see from the sun, may very well be an illusion fed to you because our brains are limited on how it can interpret vibrations for us, and our brains are essentially windows to another type of realm. Yet for some unknown reason, our creator (or creators) felt it was important we be designed this way in order to carry out our destiny here on Earth.

The reason why i have "(or creators)" there is because I believe there's a pretty good chance we aren't in the state our sole creator intended, but rather we've fallen prey to a deity of some sort that formed us into something almost entirely different than that what we were meant to be.

David Wilcock does a fascinating job at explaining this concept. I'll call it a concept because i understand we're still learning about this matrix, but we are learning. That is the important thing.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=A3zzibOtVFU

[Agape]

http://www.astrojyoti.com/purushasuktam.htm

http://www.greenmesg.org/mantras_slo...sha_suktam.php

Purusha Suktam - in sanskrit with meaning - from Rig Veda 10.90

- from Rig Veda (10.90)

पुरुष सुक्तम्
Purusha Suktam


सहस्रशीर्षा पुरुषः सहस्राक्षः सहस्रपात् ।
स भूमिं विश्वतो वृत्वात्यतिष्ठद्दशाङुलम् ॥१॥
Sahasra-Shiirssaa Purussah Sahasra-Akssah Sahasra-Paat |
Sa Bhuumim Vishvato Vrtva-Atya[i]-Tisstthad-Dasha-Angulam ||1||

Meaning:
1.1: The Purusha (The Universal Being) has Thousand Heads, Thousand Eyes and Thousand Feet (Thousand signifies innumerable which points to the omnipresence of the Universal Being),
1.2: He envelops the World from all sides (i.e. He pervades each part of the Creation), and extends beyond in the Ten Directions ( represented by Ten Fingers ),


पुरुष एवेदं सर्वं यद्भूतं यच्च भव्यम् ।
उतामृतत्वस्येशानो यदन्नेनातिरोहति ॥२॥
Purussa Evedam Sarvam Yad-Bhuutam Yacca Bhavyam |
Uta-Amrtatvasye[a-I]shaano Yad-Annena-Ati-Rohati ||2||

Meaning:
2.1: The Purusha is indeed All this (Creation) in essence; That which existed in the Past, and that which will exist in the Future,
2.2: Everything (i.e the whole Creation) is woven by the Immortal essence of the Great Lord (Purusha); by becoming Food of which (i.e. by getting consumed in Whose Immortal essence through surrender) one transcends the gross world (and becomes Immortal).


एतावानस्य महिमातो ज्यायाँश्च पूरुषः ।
पादोऽस्य विश्वा भूतानि त्रिपादस्यामृतं दिवि ॥३॥
Etaavaanasya Mahima-Ato Jyaayaash-Ca Puurussah |
Paado-Asya Vishvaa Bhuutaani Tri-Paad-Asya-Amrtam Divi ||3||

Meaning:
3.1: The Purusha is Greater than all the Greatness (which can be expressed by words),
3.2: His One Foot has become all these (visible) Worlds, and His Three Feet rests in the Immortal World of the Transcendence.




Time is like a prism .. it reflect itself in four different directions . Here , you're immediately aware of its most elusive apparition ,
the other 3 parts you're also subconsciously aware of are deeply rooted in Eternity ..


This is your greatest fear and greatest hope ... your much broader sense of Time and Reality ..

we can only learn to return the image back to its beholder ..


see no evil..
...hear no evil..
......speak no evil

[protoflex]

Sounds a lot like 'Jacob's Ladder'.

Christianity seems to convey the connection with the heavens in a different way, but i see these two religions or forms of beliefs trying to convey the same msg in different languages and doing so from different cultures of course.

Have any of you heard of http://lotus.org/ ?

It is meant to remind us that religion was not meant to divide, but rather unite.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=IZH-NF4XIRc

[Agape]

Yes ''Truth is One , seers and poets describe it differently''.

Some of the Vedic hymns are thousands years old , and were preceded by Egyptians and so forth .. human civilisation has a long history ,
what is 'poetic language' to you now was once a spoken language and 'rishis' , the seers , and forefathers of current civilisation era used it in intriguing manner to contemplate nature of Mind , Matter , Energy , Time and countless other concepts we think of today in scientific manner .
They treasured long memory of several civilisation epochs . Yet , their world was bound to change and it has casually , transformed ..

in either case - whether it's maths or philosophy , the way to arrive at next stage to your current understanding of everything is contemplation ..

some contemplations last thousands of years , in fact , some are accomplished within a second .

Each of those 'units' , 'views' , represent 'facet of time' .. of lasting - or apparition of such lasting of certain, perceptual phenomenon .

Now our overall experience is composed of many such huge - and almost endless - and small facets of various shapes and sizes ,

like giant kaleidoscope changing its landscape , also like 'sand clock'.







Is that real ?

[Agape]

This is a thread about Time not about David Wilcock , what's your problem buddy ?

[Muzz]

I have just deleted a negative and off topic post from a member who is now unsubscribed. Hopefully this interesting thread can now continue in peace.

[Agape]

I'm going slightly off topic here but will return it back safely ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(...llance_program)

PRISM is a clandestine[1] surveillance program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications of foreign nationals from at least nine major US internet companies.[2][3][4] It was launched in 2007.

PRISM is a government code name for a data-collection effort known officially by the SIGAD US-984XN.[5][6] The PRISM program collects stored Internet communications based on demands made to Internet companies such as Google Inc. under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 to turn over any data that match court-approved search terms.[7] The NSA can use these PRISM requests to target communications that were encrypted when they traveled across the Internet backbone, to focus on stored data that telecommunication filtering systems discarded earlier,[8][9] and to get data that is easier to handle, among other things.[10]

PRISM began in 2007 in the wake of the passage of the Protect America Act under the Bush Administration.[11][12] The program is operated under the supervision of the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA Court, or FISC) pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).[13] Its existence was leaked six years later by NSA contractor Edward Snowden, who warned that the extent of mass data collection was far greater than the public knew and included what he characterized as "dangerous" and "criminal" activities.[14] The disclosures were published by The Guardian and The Washington Post on June 6, 2013. Subsequent documents have demonstrated a financial arrangement between NSA's Special Source Operations division (SSO) and PRISM partners in the millions of dollars.[

Uhh. So how does that relate to our topic ... it does not .


Thank you everyone for your moderate moderation efforts






Who is behind the sofa ... your hidden destiny ...

[Meggings]

Time is malleable. It is as much an "illusion" as bodies are, as material substance is that we use in experiencing this particular creation.

When I was a tiny child, perhaps two years old, my favourite joyful game was to sit with eyes closed and zoom out of my body to the very ends of the universe, where I would "turn inside out" and zoom even faster back into my body. I did this over and over again for the sheer joy of it. To make such a journey to the edge of the universe and back in a few seconds certainly indicates how malleable time is.

I have recently been out of body watching a panoply of universes turn and wheel before my gaze. Considering the time it takes for a spiral galaxy to make but one revolution, and I was observing them turning as my consciousness ensouled a galaxy (I assume, for I was as large as a galaxy myself), I did marvel within my personality self aware of this in my physical body at how perception of time changes according to the level one is experiencing.

I have travelled countless timelines and witnessed countless scenes in other times and places. I have seen past and future and alternate timelines. From personal experience I posit that time is illusionary in the sense that bodies are, that houses are, that earth is. But it changes as the viewer-participant changes its position. Time is as real as our bodies are, and in that sense, it can be agreed that "time is not an illusion".